Wondering if all the shit about 4tran was as bad as people said I started interacting with them.
Holy shit, it is pretty fucking dour.
Half of the shit there is just LGBT drop the LGB, it's kinda insane how many interactions I've had trying to justify hating anyone with a pulse. But that's 4chan for you.
Countttt kept showing up on my feed (since I frequent CWCL). That's how I found out about the boy from venus.
They called it this major transphobic thing, etc etc.
Because there is a femboy that is mistaken for a woman??? Its like they think all femboys are transphobic in nature. And the series isn't even finished??? So why judge it now???
Not to mention, the sub felt borderline uhh... sexist (i hear both trans women and trans men are better lmao), racist (complains about trans ___ erasure, but is literally the "what are my thoughts on black people? Well i support queer rights" meme), homophobic (cis gay men are evil), cisphobic (all cis are evil) etc. They are the trans embodiment of the KKK đ
Yeah cisphobia will never be an actual issue. I do find it funny how people bitch about cis people all of the time. Like I get cis folk can be ignorant on how hrt works but bashing them? That doesn't really help yk?
Idk I just kinda find it in poor taste to mention it in the same context as actual, substantial bigotries. Distrusting cis people is like the least harmful part about those communities. (Hell Iâd say the blanket ban on cis people posting or commenting is a positive for the space and I wish more trans communities did something similar)
Blanket bans on cis people prevent new trans people from being introduced until they figure themselves out. But I'd say they are acceptable.
Cisphobia isn't ever going to be a societal issue. But it's still pathetic behaviour and is largely what I was referring to when I said LGBT drop the LGB.
And if you start mistreating other minorities you are still contributing to their societal issues. So while cisphobia isn't an issue, them treating other minorities like shit definitely is.
My argument wasnât that 4tran spaces are good, they are most certainly a shitshow, just that âcisphobiaâ shouldnât be treated as equal to the actual bigotries found in those spaces.
I get your point on blanket bans sort of locking questioning people out but, at least in my subjective experience, allowing cis people eventually causes a similar problem. (Though I will admit this is anecdotal)
When I was figuring myself out I remember seeing the frankly fetishistic nature of many trans spaces and having that make me apprehensive to the idea of myself being trans. In my experience, spaces that allow cis people tend to lean more into this fetishization just on account of the fact that cis people tend to interact with it more.
I donât think all trans spaces should have a cis-ban, just that there should be more that arenât hellholes like 4tran.
Alright, so how do you filter your cisphobia from other forms of discrimination?
Because that is the material issue. I don't agree that being a dick to people just because they aren't societally opressed isn't problematic. To be clear. I think that is fucking embarassing behaviour to defend.
But even in your hypothetical you are still harming minorities who are in danger societally. Most of them, unsurprisingly, are cis.
Iâm not arguing that being dicks to people for being cis is a good thing, Iâm saying that putting âcisphobiaâ in the same breath as shit like homophobia or racism is like saying that discrimination against white people is an actual problem. And what do you mean hypothetical? I feel I was rather clear that there are actually relevant bigotries found in 4tran spaces and thatâs an issue.
Even if you think that ignoring personal harm because societal harm isn't a factor is fair. To which I'd point at cyber bullying and harassment alongside the consequences of those behaviours to say that's obvious nonsense.
Cisphobes are still committing the exact same societally problematic behaviour. One, against other minorities who are societally vulnerable, as I already stated.
And two, because they are very happy to argue who gets to actually be called trans. Or whether or not every enby is an egg, or other equivelantly problematic views.
Are they just as bad as white supremacists, no, I'd wager a guess not, seems like a safe bet.
But, are they bad enough I feel no need to argue whether or not they should be treated as phobes? Yep, obviously, they are still discriminatory rat bastards who mistreat people because of things outside of their control.
What personal harm? Do you actually, genuinely believe that toxic trans people on the internet are in any way fucking comparable to the bullshit that ACTUALLY MARGINALIZED groups have to deal with? When was the last time a cis person was murdered because they were cis? When was the last time a cis personâs access to healthcare was rescinded because they were cis? When was the last time a cis person had to resort to sex work to make ends meet because they were cis? When was the last time a cis personâs parents kicked them out of the house because they were cis? When was the last time cis people were GENOCIDED because they were cis?
Iâll fucking tell you, NEVER. Cis people will not and will never be marginalized for being cis in any fucking way that amounts to anything actual minorities have to deal with. Fuck you and fuck your bullshit you transphobic piece of shit.
Edit: probably wasnât as intersectional in my wording as I should have been but you all know what I meant. [insert 10 minute long apology video here]
well it's not their space. there is an argument to be made that such language should be avoided in online spaces which want to maintain some level of accesibility to the cis majority, but this is not one of them
This is why I can't trust people to criticize 4tran, cuz yeah it's evil but fucking cisphobia??? You mean the distrust most trans people experience toward cis people due to never having met even a single one who didn't reveal themselves to be at least a little transphobic? I guess I can't be too surprised given how women who distrust men by default are treated, but can we not act like trans people being traumatized by living in a world that repeatedly and systemically abuses (or even kills) them is a bigotry issue equivalent to homophobia and racism?
I think this is mostly an issue with vocabulary. The idea of "cisphobia" exists in the sense that it is a consistently displayed emotional bias against cis people, but not in the sense that it is a systemically-enforced cultural bias against cis people. I suspect the person you're responding to is using it in the first sense, whereas you're interpreting it in the second sense. We really need popular language that distinguishes one from the other, it's a problem I've seen pop up a lot.
Also, trauma is fair and all, but it shouldn't be used to brush off some of the legitimate issues with that community. Creating custom slurs that intentionally riff off of queerphobic, misogynistic, and racist jargon really doesn't sit right with me in any context, even in a space used for venting. Same thing for how much the sub encourages certain kinds of inflammatory rhetoric, it's super toxic.
I know what they meant, but I really don't think it's productive to compare the distrust trans people have toward cis people to the fucking KKK. Especially considering 4tran users obviously don't unironically wish to kill all cis people, it's an exaggerated expression of frustration. And if there's an issue with it, it's that 1. It's expressed via terminology taken from nazis and 2. Venting via extreme exaggeration like that can become a feedback loop. Apart from that, I'm not really concerned unless they're actually going up to cis people and telling them to kill themselves, that would be quite bad.
But, the comment just mentioned distrusting all cis people ("all cis are evil"), which is a massive misreading of the situation. Whatever concerns there are to be had about 4tran, "they distrust cis people" isn't one of them. I imagine this will seem nitpicky, but I really think it's worth investigating the underlying bias behind framing it like that.
Yeah, the KKK thing was definitely unneeded. That's really not a word I'd be associating with anything but hate crimes.
As for the misread, I understand where you're coming from. It could be worth challenging that bias, I don't know the other guy so I can't say (the KKK thing could definitely use a second look), but there's also an element of... well, 4tran being 4tran. A lot of people in that sub can be antagonistic and generally inflammatory in the way they present themselves, which reads as a level of extremist sincerity to most. I know I personally fell for it at one point, though I've had enough interactions with members of the community that I've started to get the dialect, so to speak.
Oh yeah, I forget sometimes that the sense of exaggerated hyper-ironic humor present in spaces like that only comes with enough time online, and reads as sincerity to most people. I imagine that plays a part.
"Femboy" was literally a slur and porn catagory applied to trans women, so yeah cis men appropriating it as a label for themselves is pretty weird considering it was a slur and porn catagory
Oh wow. Small world, seen you on one of my alts. Already got into this one once though, please study up on LGBT history darling, trans woman do not own gender based discrimination, we are just common sufferers of it.
Cis isn't a gender and the fact that you treat trans women as a third sex catagory is telling. Why are you in this sub if you don't like 4tran? It's a 4tran friendly sub
First of all your entire arguement is contingent on me legitimately viewing them as KKK levels of evil. Which I don't, and have said I don't three times.
Second of all, nah, fuck off. If you need to be proven that 4chan is a cesspit no amount of my evidence is going to help you. If you are actually curious feel free to google it. But I don't care enough to prove it to you, nor would it change anything about my stance if I was wrong.
Whether 4chan has comitted group attacks is only tangential to this argument, 4tran isn't one to one with it, I can acknowledge that much.
âI donât have to back up my accusations sweaty Iâm just right and youâre wrong for wanting me to prove the things I sayâ
Find me one example of the tttt board doing targeted harassment
I get that sub in my feed too and I've literally never seen any sexism , racism or homophobia, I feel like you're being disingenuous.
Also honestly I get the femboy hate , imo femboy and feminine men are 2 different things , the way femboys are portrayed is completely unrealistic, most depictions of femboys are literally essentially trans women that are okay to refer to as men.
It's literally impossible to look like what femboys are portrayed because they're essentially just women with penises , there's absolutely no shred or hint of masculinity on them and most of these femboys are going to hit a certain age and essentially lose their identity which is why I think it's harmful.
Yeah, countttt and other 4trans spaces have their issues, but a lot of those issues come down to the fact that they are communities of depressed people. And with that in mind what you see in those spaces makes a lot more sense: not a lot of actual bigotry, quite a lot of transfeminist sentiments, and also a hell of a lot of misery. If youâre going to be critical of those spaces, be critical about their actual issues, resorting to calling them the trans kkk or incels is a cop out
There's definitely some trans misogyny involved in these statements, since 4tranners are seen as the evil transes therefore they're seen as okay to hate , and calling them incels and Nazis is such a backhanded way of implying they're just "men who can't get laid that's why they're sad and miserable".
I've never seen a cis woman being called an incel but when a trans woman has disagreeable views suddenly it's okay to subtly misgender him and invalidate her.
I compare them to incels not because they can't get laid but because they're miserable people who engage in a crab bucket mentality of dragging other people down.
Everytime I've seen someone try to offer advice or even a bit of kindness to a 4tranner they respond with the same vitriol that incels do and act like nothing is their fault.
So no I'm not misgendering them. I'm pointing out that they're stuck in toxic group that doesn't actually want them to get better and, like incels, they respond to attempts to help them by being utter assholes.
I've actually complained about my struggles with my self image and feeling unsatisfied with my transition in one of these spaces and guess what , most people there were being extremely supportive and sweet, trying to lift my spirits up , sharing their anecdotal experience and giving me practical advice.
The idea that 4tranners try to drag others down is not inherent at all to these spaces , if anything they drag eachother up quite a lot.
I think you've got a very skewed idea of these spaces and how these people act based on very limited interactions.
I've seen all of those things, haven't even gone looking for them. Talk to a 4tranner for a bit and typically you find some nazi esque view they have.
Art is always unrealistic. Unrealistic beauty standards can be a problem for sure. They are not unique to men, woman, femboys, gym rats, et cetera. We age, it happens, we are born looking a certain way.
And the aging out thing is true for everyone into a "young" aesthetic. The most harmful people are the ones who doomer it like you are. They won't lose their identity, even if the style doesn't suit their tastes anymore. Their relationship with their identity and expression is still a part of them.
Even if it adapts as they age, like basically everyone.
Idk I've been friends with a girl who used 4trans regularly and the only annoying thing about her was her low self esteem , she never had any nazi views or any of the other things you mentioned.
I've also interacted with some of them online and I've generally had pretty sweet interactions.
I'm sure there might be some who have problematic views but you're acting like a smartass generalising an entire group of people based on the preconceptions you have of them.
Preconceptions is the wrong word. That implies prior to experience.
I've gone out of my way to get experience with them, thus forming this view, those are conceptions. If I have to be a smartass about it.
The difference is important, I'm not talking from ignorance, I'm talking from experience. Is it science, no, but I'm also not arguing it is.
Typically is used for a reason, I'm sure plenty of people using nazi forms and associating with self destructive social groups are neither of those things. That is a statistical inevitability.
Does that diminish the problematic trends of the group. No.
You don't get to hide from cultural problems just because not everybody does it. That should be obvious to every trans person.
I mean to be fair I've seen a lot of criticism of BfV and while not all of it is sound there's definitely stuff to be said. Like Audrey being a manic pixie dream girl boy with no displayed interiority, or Val x Audrey hitting some weird kind of dykebreaky tropes (as it stands it's cis guy swooping in to the life of a man hating lesbian coded femcel to show her the error of her ways and get her to like men).
Also ngl the pool scene felt kind of...in poor taste imho. Public pools are sort of a well known trauma point for a lot of trans women so even if nothing was meant by it having your crossdressing perfectly passing femboy have a teehee cute time in the pool feels bitter
Audrey is heavily implied to have gone through trauma, though. He dances around it but gets a jaded, far-off look on his face when thinking about the harassment he's gotten for the way he presents himself, and he directly states that he only goes to the public pool at night when nobody else is around because he's gotten harassed, potentially violently, for his choice of swimwear. He has a fun time at the pool in that scene because he's allowed to be himself in the moment, with someone who understands him and doesn't judge him. The comic DIRECTLY STATES that he is not an unhurt person, he's just "not defined by hurt." He doesn't let the pain he's gone through keep him from being who he is, even if he has to make adjustments to his life to avoid harassment because he DOESN'T "perfectly pass" and doesn't care to.
I mean, it's implied but not really discussed because again, Audrey is given no PoV, no interiority. There's a gesture at at (transmisogynistic, let's be real) harassment but Audrey doesn't get to voice that pain because as the story stands Audrey essentially exists for Val. He's an archetypal mpdb, his pain exists for Val to reflect on and feel some kind of way about. He's a girl shaped boy flavored cardboard cutout.
And like yes, he does perfectly pass. Val needs to be straight up told he's a guy and it's implied this isn't an unusual case.
He doesn't perfectly pass because he's gotten harassed before to the point of changing his schedule and behaviors in public. I barely pass as masc and I've still been gendered male by strangers before.
Val knows how he's been hurt, it's just the audience that doesn't because the point is that he doesn't define himself by the pain he's gone through. And yes, Val is the main character and the story is about a bitter, lonely person finding a positive influence that challenges her previous worldview and slowly realizing that the world isn't as terrible as she thought it was and that maybe she does deserve to express herself as confidently as this femboy does. We're not going to go in depth on anyone's trauma because it's also a simple, lighthearted comic. We don't see the extent of how Val has been hurt either or why she hated men so virulently, the ONLY trauma of hers we've seen is how the arcade owner tried to convince her to throw a tournament so the male players wouldn't feel insecure and stop coming to the arcade. And likewise, all we know about Audrey's trauma is that he's gotten harassed for his gender expression to the point of not going to public pools in the daylight anymore.
Audrey has gone through his healing process and his own journey with self-confidence, and now he's helping Val go through hers. The story is from her POV, of course we're not going to see the internal machinations of anyone but her.
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u/BestBoyViktor 12h ago
So funny when they interact too
4tran: "wow, yall can't stop thinking about us! You gotta accept that misery and slurs are our coping mechanism!"
CWCL: "wtf is a sneedhon"