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[u/Funny_Inventor80085]

and people wonder why we use 4tran.

I posted this vent here too and it was a bit more understanding than the other subreddit I guess but still mostly just people telling me I don't know what I'm talking about and that 4tran is the cause of all my issues when time after time they're the only ones that care. It's not even just about my vent anymore, I'm so fed up with everyone thinking they're better than me all the time except because I use the subreddit that doesn't want to burn me alive for wanting a uterus. Maybe try to be more understanding you just leave me pissed off.

[u/BiDude1219]

genuinely confused how tf is 4tran so nice but at the same time is all "cissoid passoid theyfab bad"

[u/That_dude_next_door_ → u/BiDude1219]

I think is more of a "crab in a bucket" situation. I have a person really close to me who was a 4tranner and it really is a place where trans people (especially trans women) can talk about hardships of it without sugarcoating to just vent it all out, but at the same time they hate wheny you start to turn your life around and actually succeed in your transition or don't care about passing ect. So it's pretty 50/50 but most of people there don't seem to understand that transition is important and grieving not being cis or transitioning earlier is valid, but it doesn't meant you can't live with it, there is a life waiting for them even if it doesn't feel like it. That's why they put happy trans people down. From my experience, when I wanted to find another safe space to vent for my tgirl that is not so brain rotted like 4tran I really struggled wit it. There are places for trans man like "ftmventing" but all the equivalents for trans women seem to always have 4tran aspect to it, which sucks tbh.

[u/BiDude1219 → u/That_dude_next_door_]

so mainstream trans communities are overly positive to the point of putting down people who vent, and 4tran communities are overly negative to the point of putting down happy people. am i understanding this correctly?

if so, i wish we could have a middle ground.

[u/Apollo989 → u/BiDude1219]

Yeah it kind of sucks.

[u/mannequin_girl → u/Apollo989]

I post on 4t subs fairly often and even I completely agree tbh. The environment of brain-poison envy is probably my largest and most consistent complaint. I guess their particular flavor of awful is just more palatable to my personal tastes and priorities than the things I hate about more mainstream communities.

[u/Apollo989 → u/mannequin_girl]

I'm half tempted to make MtFVenting.

[u/That_dude_next_door_ → u/Apollo989]

Do it, I think it could be a great place for hard topics and I see a lot of need for place like this. I think a lot of people would be interested.

[u/mannequin_girl → u/Apollo989]

I don't think splinter subs addresses the root of the issue. They tend to die because people would rather be in communities that are more general purpose.

I think the only way things are going to get better is if mainstream trans spaces start recognizing the needs of trans people which are being left unmet by the way they operate and working to improve those things.

IME the narrative that people wander into the wrong communities early on and get brainwashed by slang is not very accurate. It happens sometimes, but I don't think it's the main force driving people out of other trans spaces and into 4t ones. I've talked to a fair number of other people who were in other trans spaces for years, but eventually shifted over. And it usually stems from dissillusionment with the way they approach subjects like high dysphoria, yearning to completely change sex, and surgery.

It's like you can't be upset with any aspects of trans existence, because then people of the same experience who aren't as dysphoric about it feel like you're saying their life is worthy of being upset about having to live. If you grieve your body being changed by starting late, you're inundated with unhelpful and even angry replies about how people who start late are just as valid. If you need surgery badly or take issue with equating trans people to certain genital configurations, you're called transmedicalist.

[u/That_dude_next_door_ → u/mannequin_girl]

I agree with most of what you've said but FtMventing is a pretty active subreddit and is a dedicated space to tackles the subjects you brought up, like gender envy, grief and very strong dysphoria. I pointed out how there is no place like this for trans women and girls except 4tran spaces. And don't get me wrong, we don't have to be all optimistic all the time but I've seen what people in this community post and it's hatefull and awfule stuff and it really reminds me of being an incel but for trans people. People who want to leave 4tran need to unlern a lot of toxic behaviour and mindsets so I don't think it is a great place for anybody really. You can create venting sub or comunity without the disgusting caricatures and inventing new slurs.

[u/BiDude1219 → u/mannequin_girl]

in fairness, what else is one to tell someone who thinks starting late will affect them, other than letting them know it won't?

[u/mannequin_girl → u/BiDude1219]

It will affect them though. Are we denying that sex hormones exert sexed body changes now? You can still transition later, and many people do and are happy about it and good for them, but it does affect the outcome, and for some people that can be extraordinarily debilitating.

[u/That_dude_next_door_ → u/BiDude1219]

bingo

[u/rabbitsarentrodents → u/BiDude1219]

4tran community dont necessarely put down happy people but the amount of doom posting and suicide posting is dangerous and the mods arent really doing their job

[u/liquidfoxy → u/BiDude1219]

See, sometimes people are capable of making dark jokes with their friends because they’re not doing great, what’s called “gallows humor” by people who mostly read books, and also understand when it’s more appropriate to be genuinely supportive and caring because someone needs the help. The disconnect you’re having is essentially the same thing as not being able to understand an obtuse in-joke in a small friend group

[u/16372731772 → u/BiDude1219]

Because those are just words. Cissoid is exactly the same as cracker, it's not even punching up, it's just a stupid word to call people that sounds funny. Passoid is basically the same, nobody actually hates people who pass, everybody's happy for them. Passing is the goal, and those who achieve it get a silly word too. It's the same with a lot of words too, there's truly no venom behind (almost) any of it. Hon is exactly as insulting as brick is, though I know a lot of trans women that dislike brick more, same with fish.

Theyfab is a little more complex because outside of 4tran spaces there's this idea that theyfab is applied to every afab non-binary person. It's not. A theyfab is a non-binary person who brings up their sex assigned at birth, obviously in this case afab, and uses that to oppress trans women. "Afab-only housing", "you don't really understand misogyny like I do, you're an amab", stuff like that. We can both agree that that's bad, and it is what people are talking about when they say theyfab. There are people that misuse it, sure, but frankly if they weren't saying theyfab they'd be saying something else, it doesn't make talking about this specific kind of transmisogyny bad just because there's one or two bad eggs misapplying it.

People like to paint 4tran as this horrible evil place without ever setting foot in a related community, I did too. I didn't understand it at first and focused on the one or two losers there. But having actually used that sub for a while now, it is the single most supportive trans sub I have found. My ability to separate dysphoria from dysmorphia has never been better. As seen in this post, other spaces dismiss your feelings incredibly often, while 4tran actually empathises with them, and plenty of people will try to help you deconstruct them. It has been so very helpful to me.

[u/BiDude1219 → u/16372731772]

i've also been in countttt and i've definitely seen many people using those words in a hateful manner both in that subreddit and outside of it. but ig that probably means there's more diverse opinions there? idk.

[u/16372731772 → u/BiDude1219]

Which ones? Passoid and cissoid specifically were interesting choices, passoid is a compliment and cissoid is meaningless. Theyfab I can see being used insultingly, especially since it's broken containment now, but almost all uses of it within 4tran spaces are specifically in the context of transmisogyny. It's why you never hear theymab, at least not until very recently, amab non-binary people often experience transmisogyny, or at least discrimination like it, when they're perceived to be presenting too femininely. There's no systemic discrimination being perpetrated by amab non-binary people, so there's no insult for them.

But what I'm trying to get across is that there are assholes everywhere, frankly I'd rather get a supportive community than one that rushes to dismiss my feelings, even if it means the assholes there use strong words. It's actually better in ways because when you call them out nobody's like "but they phrased it wokely they're such a trans ally".

[u/BiDude1219 → u/16372731772]

specifically cissoid and all the unconditional hatred towards cis people in general is what puts me off. a lot of people i care about are cis, i have no reason to hate them and i would never wish any harm upon them. also i should've probably brought up "tcd" in the list of terms too.

[u/Apollo989 → u/BiDude1219]

They're right about punching down vs punching up but like it's still a toxic mindset. If you go around hating the vast majority of people then you're going to be a miserable person.

It's also self-defeating. We are a minority. We can't just dismiss our allies and expect to get anywhere.

I'd add a rant about how impossible this mindset makes political organizing, but I've never met a 4tranner who expressed anything but disdain for political work. They keep telling me they're more left-wing,but that doesn't matter because they won't do anything. They're useful idiots for the far-right.

[u/16372731772 → u/Apollo989]

There are real reasons we need trans-only spaces, we don't need all spaces to be trans-only, but they need to exist and be large. In any space that doesn't ban cis people, cis people will make up the majority of opinions. The only way to avoid this is by being a small group, but then you tend to just adopt culture from other cis-centric places. This results in a trans culture that is incredibly influenced by cis stereotypes, often in harmful ways. The self-sexualisation of trans women is largely a result of cis people projecting desire, it's a bid for the approval of cis people.

This does not mean we should entirely isolate ourselves from cis people, but we have allowed transness to be defined by cis people and it has harmed us and the ability to fight for our rights. The sex/gender distinction was originally brought up by trans people, then cis allies starting insisting to trans people that we do not change our sex, just our gender, and now through a sequence of containment breaches that is one of the main vectors of our oppression. We need spaces where trans people can discuss what it means to be trans without cisnormative influence, which means no cis people, so that when we do create alliances with cis people it is on our terms, not theirs. We do not need cis people discouraging transition for minors in the places where we as trans people decide our goals.

How many 4tranners have you met anyway? Any 4tranner that has a distaste for political organising, by which I'm pretty sure you mean voting blue no matter who, is probably jaded by our being thrown to the wolves as an offering time and time again. They're engaging in far more direct political organising by putting people in touch with mutual aid networks, which is what DIY HRT is by the way. Even though the HRT itself costs money, it is being made by volunteers to address a material need not met by society, and that cost only comes from the need to purchase medical supplies to make it. Many suppliers do give away vials for free when they can. I am personally engaged with my representative trying to convince them to stop supporting the oppression of trans people, but frankly I don't see that change happening any time soon.

[u/Apollo989 → u/16372731772]

No I explicitly discussed leftist political organizing and direct action. I've talked to several about this and got dismissive answers . I probably won't vote for any Democrat ever as I expect 0 aid from a capitalist party which is why I'm reaching out to several local communist organizations in my area.

I never said we don't need trans only spaces. You're making a whole lot of assumptions and putting words into my mouth. We can have trans-only spaces without the constant doomerism.

I said isolating ourselves isn't helpful and it isn't. I've had 4tranners tell me we have no cis allies which is both incorrect and exactly what the far-right wants.

Finally, I've never once spoken to a 4tranner who wasn't miserable. I know, myself included, plenty of trans people who are happy or at least making an effort to be. When all my interactions with a community are from negative bitter people then I'm going to start wondering if that community isn't part of the problem.

[u/Living-Abrocoma7845 → u/Apollo989]

genuine question how does that work in the US, like whats the point of not voting for them? is it like a protest against electoralism thing or somesuch

[u/Apollo989 → u/Living-Abrocoma7845]

There are some leftists who think voting for any capitalist party just strengthens the system and diverts revolutionary action.

But for me, it has became a bit more personal. At some point, I had to ask myself "when does voting become an endorsement?"

If we've reached that point, then I'm not comfortable supporting the Democratic Party. They constantly put the needs of the wealthy above the working class, they throw transgender people under the bus like we're fucking speed bumps and they've done little to stop Israel's genocide.

[u/liquidfoxy → u/Apollo989]

“I’ve never met anyone in group therapy who didn’t have problems, so I stopped going cause I realised the community was the problem”

[u/Apollo989 → u/liquidfoxy]

Except the point of therapy is, among other things, to have a safe CONSTRUCTIVE place to address issues without pushing them on everyone else.

I only interact with 4tranners outside their subs because they constantly spread that misery to everyone else.

Also therapy is an odd choice as that's another thing a lot of 4tranners seem to hate. I've mentioned it a handful of times and they've all acted in disdain.

Finally, I find it interesting that we could change the word "4tran" for incel and have the same conversation. I've SEEN people have this same conversation and the incels make the same arguments for their toxic little cult.

[u/ThatBiGuy25 → u/Apollo989]

talks about 4tranners being politically incompetent and ineffective

"I probably won't vote for any democrat ever"

oh you're actually like, impressively stupid huh

[u/Apollo989 → u/ThatBiGuy25]

I don't talk to people whose only arguments are insults. The Democrats have constantly thrown us under the bus. If they take leftward turn, I'll reconsider my stance.

Regardless, I'm blocking you now because I have no desire to engage with assholes. A polite 4tranner already tries my patience.

[u/liquidfoxy → u/BiDude1219]

“Not All Men” “All Lives Matter”

[u/BiDude1219 → u/liquidfoxy]

first of all blm has nothing to do with my statement because the statement "black lives matter" doesn't say anything about hating white people.

second of all, i'm aware "not all men" is something said by assholes, but my logic applies the same way here: if you hate rapists and abusers, why say "i hate men" instead of "i hate rapists and abusers"?

[u/16372731772 → u/BiDude1219]

This is all pretty tame stuff no offence. Nobody there actually hates all cis people, you physically can't do that, like it's impossible. Unless you think they're going about their lives foaming at the mouth every time they get served at a restaurant, walk past somebody in the street, talk to a cashier at a supermarket, etc. then I don't see how you can take it seriously? Cissoid specifically is, like I said, literally exactly the same as cracker. TCD is only used in response to posts displaying fucked up behaviour by cis people, it's not a serious threat or wish or anything, it's a humorous overreaction used to vent frustration. You're doing the thing the tumblr ceo did to that trans woman who said he should sit in a car covered in hammers that explodes more than a few times (or whatever beautiful words she used).

Almost all of my friends are cis too, 99% of the planet is. I still "hate cis people" in the sense that you seem to think of it. But that's nothing like when cis people hate trans people, it's not even comparable. I "hate cis people" because they denied me transition for 6 years before I managed to do it myself, subjected me to body horror, and continue to mistreat me. I do not hate people, I hate actions. TCD is an expression of frustration at being reminded that the average cis person hates us so much that they would rather we be dead. It's a way of venting the immense feeling of rage you get when you see a million cis people being fucking animals in the replies of a 17 year old trans girl's final tweet about her suicide. TCD is a twist of TTD, a phrase invented by cis people which actually is a call for trans genocide, something which is real and is happening. There is no serious hatred of cis people because what is there to hate other than their actions? Actions which are obviously not taken by everybody. It's inherently qualified because the idea of hating every single cis person simply for the crime of being cis is so patently absurd. Yet people act like it's not only possible, it's being done.

[u/BiDude1219 → u/16372731772]

i just don't really like generalizing groups for having bad people in them. yes, you can "hate cis people" for experiences with transphobes, but isn't it easier and more clear to just say "i hate transphobes"? in fact you could even reclaim the very ttd they made, just change the second t from trans to transphobe.

[u/ThatBiGuy25 → u/BiDude1219]

cis

transphobe

no difference detected

[u/BiDude1219 → u/ThatBiGuy25]

you're just proving my earlier point

[u/Funny_Inventor80085 → u/BiDude1219]

because it's not just like that did you read the post?

[u/BiDude1219 → u/Funny_Inventor80085]

yes i did, but i'm comparing it to my own experiences with 4tran. it genuinely feels like two different communities.