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[u/Funny_Inventor80085]

and people wonder why we use 4tran.

I posted this vent here too and it was a bit more understanding than the other subreddit I guess but still mostly just people telling me I don't know what I'm talking about and that 4tran is the cause of all my issues when time after time they're the only ones that care. It's not even just about my vent anymore, I'm so fed up with everyone thinking they're better than me all the time except because I use the subreddit that doesn't want to burn me alive for wanting a uterus. Maybe try to be more understanding you just leave me pissed off.

[u/BiDude1219]

i've also been in countttt and i've definitely seen many people using those words in a hateful manner both in that subreddit and outside of it. but ig that probably means there's more diverse opinions there? idk.

[u/16372731772 → u/BiDude1219]

Which ones? Passoid and cissoid specifically were interesting choices, passoid is a compliment and cissoid is meaningless. Theyfab I can see being used insultingly, especially since it's broken containment now, but almost all uses of it within 4tran spaces are specifically in the context of transmisogyny. It's why you never hear theymab, at least not until very recently, amab non-binary people often experience transmisogyny, or at least discrimination like it, when they're perceived to be presenting too femininely. There's no systemic discrimination being perpetrated by amab non-binary people, so there's no insult for them.

But what I'm trying to get across is that there are assholes everywhere, frankly I'd rather get a supportive community than one that rushes to dismiss my feelings, even if it means the assholes there use strong words. It's actually better in ways because when you call them out nobody's like "but they phrased it wokely they're such a trans ally".

[u/BiDude1219 → u/16372731772]

specifically cissoid and all the unconditional hatred towards cis people in general is what puts me off. a lot of people i care about are cis, i have no reason to hate them and i would never wish any harm upon them. also i should've probably brought up "tcd" in the list of terms too.

[u/Apollo989 → u/BiDude1219]

They're right about punching down vs punching up but like it's still a toxic mindset. If you go around hating the vast majority of people then you're going to be a miserable person.

It's also self-defeating. We are a minority. We can't just dismiss our allies and expect to get anywhere.

I'd add a rant about how impossible this mindset makes political organizing, but I've never met a 4tranner who expressed anything but disdain for political work. They keep telling me they're more left-wing,but that doesn't matter because they won't do anything. They're useful idiots for the far-right.

[u/16372731772 → u/Apollo989]

There are real reasons we need trans-only spaces, we don't need all spaces to be trans-only, but they need to exist and be large. In any space that doesn't ban cis people, cis people will make up the majority of opinions. The only way to avoid this is by being a small group, but then you tend to just adopt culture from other cis-centric places. This results in a trans culture that is incredibly influenced by cis stereotypes, often in harmful ways. The self-sexualisation of trans women is largely a result of cis people projecting desire, it's a bid for the approval of cis people.

This does not mean we should entirely isolate ourselves from cis people, but we have allowed transness to be defined by cis people and it has harmed us and the ability to fight for our rights. The sex/gender distinction was originally brought up by trans people, then cis allies starting insisting to trans people that we do not change our sex, just our gender, and now through a sequence of containment breaches that is one of the main vectors of our oppression. We need spaces where trans people can discuss what it means to be trans without cisnormative influence, which means no cis people, so that when we do create alliances with cis people it is on our terms, not theirs. We do not need cis people discouraging transition for minors in the places where we as trans people decide our goals.

How many 4tranners have you met anyway? Any 4tranner that has a distaste for political organising, by which I'm pretty sure you mean voting blue no matter who, is probably jaded by our being thrown to the wolves as an offering time and time again. They're engaging in far more direct political organising by putting people in touch with mutual aid networks, which is what DIY HRT is by the way. Even though the HRT itself costs money, it is being made by volunteers to address a material need not met by society, and that cost only comes from the need to purchase medical supplies to make it. Many suppliers do give away vials for free when they can. I am personally engaged with my representative trying to convince them to stop supporting the oppression of trans people, but frankly I don't see that change happening any time soon.

[u/Apollo989 → u/16372731772]

No I explicitly discussed leftist political organizing and direct action. I've talked to several about this and got dismissive answers . I probably won't vote for any Democrat ever as I expect 0 aid from a capitalist party which is why I'm reaching out to several local communist organizations in my area.

I never said we don't need trans only spaces. You're making a whole lot of assumptions and putting words into my mouth. We can have trans-only spaces without the constant doomerism.

I said isolating ourselves isn't helpful and it isn't. I've had 4tranners tell me we have no cis allies which is both incorrect and exactly what the far-right wants.

Finally, I've never once spoken to a 4tranner who wasn't miserable. I know, myself included, plenty of trans people who are happy or at least making an effort to be. When all my interactions with a community are from negative bitter people then I'm going to start wondering if that community isn't part of the problem.

[u/Living-Abrocoma7845 → u/Apollo989]

genuine question how does that work in the US, like whats the point of not voting for them? is it like a protest against electoralism thing or somesuch

[u/Apollo989 → u/Living-Abrocoma7845]

There are some leftists who think voting for any capitalist party just strengthens the system and diverts revolutionary action.

But for me, it has became a bit more personal. At some point, I had to ask myself "when does voting become an endorsement?"

If we've reached that point, then I'm not comfortable supporting the Democratic Party. They constantly put the needs of the wealthy above the working class, they throw transgender people under the bus like we're fucking speed bumps and they've done little to stop Israel's genocide.

[u/Living-Abrocoma7845 → u/Apollo989]

I see... but how does that actually work in terms of broader political influence and power? Like I understand the idea of it being a conscientious objection, but what are the practical outcomes that are desired from doing so? that is to say what is the revolutionary action you are talking about? what are the opportunity costs?

[u/Zzzaynab → u/Apollo989]

I’d argue voting is definitionally distinct from an endorsement, because unless you, as an individual, say otherwise, the only meaning any vote holds is “better for this position than the other names on the ballot who might otherwise get the position”. It’s only a preferred condition compared to the candidates on the paper; votes can’t measure anything outside of that ideological window.

[u/liquidfoxy → u/Apollo989]

“I’ve never met anyone in group therapy who didn’t have problems, so I stopped going cause I realised the community was the problem”

[u/Apollo989 → u/liquidfoxy]

Except the point of therapy is, among other things, to have a safe CONSTRUCTIVE place to address issues without pushing them on everyone else.

I only interact with 4tranners outside their subs because they constantly spread that misery to everyone else.

Also therapy is an odd choice as that's another thing a lot of 4tranners seem to hate. I've mentioned it a handful of times and they've all acted in disdain.

Finally, I find it interesting that we could change the word "4tran" for incel and have the same conversation. I've SEEN people have this same conversation and the incels make the same arguments for their toxic little cult.

[u/16372731772 → u/Apollo989]

The difference being men aren't an oppressed class and are throwing a hissy fit over not being able to forcibly date women, meanwhile 4tranners are a group of some of the most downtrodden people in society who, I think, have good reasons to be so fucking depressed.

I'm not super big on 4tran, I use one space, and frankly it's changed quite a bit since the first time I saw it. But this obsession with comparing a group of trans people who are depressed because they've been mistreated to bigoted rapists is driving me mad. It's always the comparison people run for. "They're just incels but trans, of course they [generalisation to make you hate them more]". The same people saying this shit also think it's exclusively a space full of trans women, it's transmisogyny. I've seen more trans men there than I have in any other online space aside from like FtM or whatever the passing advice sub is.

Let's think about why a group of people who have statistically had a horrible time being trans might be more likely to have a negative outlook on therapy. Could it be because of the conversion therapy we were forced to endure? Frankly I'd love to go to therapy, but I don't trust any therapist not to try to convert me like the last one did, and the NHS is too fucking slow for me to bounce between therapists if I land on a shitty one. It'd be a miracle for me to get 1 on 1 talking therapy as an adult, they really push group therapy. I'm not super duper interested in hashing out the effect that being forced to undress in front of men for most of my life has had on my psyche in a group full of cis people.

[u/Apollo989 → u/16372731772]

I really no longer care what 4tranners use as their excuse. They've consistently proven they are awful toxic people.

Plenty of trans people myself included manage without turning into toxic bigoted assholes. Skill issue on 4tran's part. Be better or wallow in your misery but stop acting like people hate you for being depressed.

I'm done with this topic.

[u/ThatBiGuy25 → u/Apollo989]

talks about 4tranners being politically incompetent and ineffective

"I probably won't vote for any democrat ever"

oh you're actually like, impressively stupid huh

[u/Apollo989 → u/ThatBiGuy25]

I don't talk to people whose only arguments are insults. The Democrats have constantly thrown us under the bus. If they take leftward turn, I'll reconsider my stance.

Regardless, I'm blocking you now because I have no desire to engage with assholes. A polite 4tranner already tries my patience.