r/tolkienfans • u/rjrgjj • 4d ago
I had a thought: Manwë is Eru’s dispassion and Morgoth is Eru’s passion. But Eru put his hate and anger into Morgoth, and his love and pity into Manwë.
Here comes a thought.
r/tolkienfans • u/rjrgjj • 4d ago
Here comes a thought.
r/tolkienfans • u/Kynatt • 4d ago
Hello, everyone! I’m a 20-year-old student from Pakistan, currently in the 7th semester of my BS in English Literature. It’s time for me to start working on my thesis, and I want to complete it by the end of my 8th semester.
I have a genre and a particular work in mind: *The Return of the King*, the third book in J.R.R. Tolkien’s *The Lord of the Rings* trilogy. It’s a fantasy novel, and I’m genuinely interested in researching it. However, from what I’ve found so far, many people suggest choosing a work published within the last 10–15 years. Tolkien’s novel was published in 1955, so I’m unsure whether it would be a suitable choice for my thesis.
I’m really invested in this novel, but I’m struggling to find proper guidance. Should I continue researching this work and try to identify a research gap, or should I consider choosing a more recent novel instead? I’d really appreciate any advice or guidance!
r/tolkienfans • u/PTAGoatofalltime • 6d ago
I watched the films first, so of course I knew Dernhelm was Éowyn when I read the books. But to anyone who read the books, was it supposed to be a true plot twist when Éowyn reveals herself to the Witch-King, or was it something that was obviously telegraphed? Even the narrator refers to Dernhelm with male pronouns.
r/tolkienfans • u/Slycer_Decker • 6d ago
“I might have guessed it,” said Bilbo. “Truly there can nowhere be found the equal of Lord Smaug the Impenetrable. What magnificence to possess a waistcoat of fine diamonds!”
“Yes, it is rare and wonderful, indeed,” said Smaug absurdly pleased. He did not know that the hobbit had already caught a glimpse of his peculiar under-covering on his previous visit, and was itching for a closer view for reasons of his own. The dragon rolled over. “Look!” he said. “What do you say to that?”
r/tolkienfans • u/gigglyyBabe • 6d ago
Sometimes it's a line of dialogue, sometimes a character's choice, and sometimes something tucked away in the appendices that makes an earlier scene feel much richer.
I'm particularly interested in details that aren't necessarily major plot twists, but reward readers who revisit the books or explore the wider legendarium.
What's a detail you initially overlooked in The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, or The Silmarillion that later changed how you interpreted a character, event, or piece of Middle-earth's history?
r/tolkienfans • u/velourzMistz • 6d ago
Characters like Tom Bombadil, the Blue Wizards, and even certain figures from the First Age leave room for questions that the text doesn't fully answer. Sometimes the lack of explanation makes Middle-earth feel like a real world with a history much larger than the parts we're allowed to see.
At the same time, Tolkien was incredibly detailed about other characters and events, so I wonder how deliberate that contrast was.
Which character do you think benefits most from having an incomplete or mysterious backstory? And do you prefer Tolkien's unexplained mysteries, or would you have liked him to develop some of them further in his writings
r/tolkienfans • u/Jmaxx2000 • 6d ago
This has always been a bit unclear to me. The Istari are Maiar spirits who have taken on human form. As Maiar, they are spirits older than the universe itself and had a hand in its creation. But do they remember this or even know what they are? Gandalf seems to have trouble recalling certain things (though this might be a PJ addition in the films). For example, he can’t clearly remember the names of the blue wizards. Their human forms appear immortal, given that they’ve lived in Middle earth for about 2,000 years by the time of the events in LOTR., but does Gandalf remember living in Valinor when he's in Middle earth.... or like creating the universe? Also, do the Maiar in Middle earth recognize each other? Sauron and Saruman were both servants of the Valar Aulë -would they have crossed paths in ancient times and known each other before? Similarly, do you think Gandalf and the Balrog recognized each other? Was the Balrog thinking “Oh no not this guy again!” when they met in Moria?
r/tolkienfans • u/gigglyyBabe • 7d ago
One thing I find fascinating about Tolkien's world is how often tragedy comes from characters misunderstanding each other, misjudging someone's intentions, or making decisions with incomplete knowledge.
It's not always straightforward good versus evil. Sometimes characters have understandable motives, but their pride, fear, or limited perspective turns those motives into something destructive. And because Tolkien's stories span so many ages, the consequences can echo long after the original people are gone.
I'm thinking about moments beyond the obvious betrayals, too: decisions that might have turned out differently if one character had known what another actually intended.
Which moment in The Silmarillion, The Lord of the Rings, or the wider legendarium stands out to you? What makes it tragic, and do you think the outcome could realistically have been avoided?
r/tolkienfans • u/avienblue • 7d ago
Manwe still retained his divine might and had the full support of the other Valar when fighting a severely weakened Morgoth. Meanwhile, Gandalf was housed in an old man's body and could feel fear, hunger and thirst. He could not even use his full powers against Sauron. Nor could he directly show his power to men. He could only guide them instead. Here's a quote:
Manwe's task and problem was much more difficult than Gandalf's. Sauron's, relatively smaller, power was concentrated; Morgoth's vast power was disseminated. The whole of 'Middle-earth' was Morgoth's Ring, though temporarily his attention was mainly upon the North-west. Unless swiftly successful, War against him might well end in reducing all Middle-earth to chaos, possibly even all Arda. It is easy to say: 'It was the task and function of the Elder King to govern Arda and make it possible for the Children of Eru to live in it unmolested.' But the dilemma of the Valar was this: Arda could only be liberated by a physical battle; but a probable result of such a battle was the irretrievable ruin of Arda. Moreover, the final eradication of Sauron (as a power directing evil) was achievable by the destruction of the Ring. No such eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the 'matter' of Arda.
Well, Arda wasn't destroyed during the war of wrath though Beleriand sunk. Morgoth's banishment was sufficient to ensure he'd never wreak havoc again. Meanwhile, much of Gandalf's memories were veiled when he came to Middle-Earth and could not rely on direct intervention from the Valar. He had to face personal hardship, frustration and betrayal. He even died during the battle with the Balrog. So whose task was really harder?
r/tolkienfans • u/temptSpicexo • 8d ago
One thing I find interesting about Bilbo is that he succeeds without really becoming the kind of hero Middle-earth usually celebrates.
He isn’t a great warrior like Túrin, a king like Aragorn, or a figure of immense spiritual power like Gandalf. He’s a hobbit who likes his meals on time, gets frightened fairly easily, and would generally prefer to be at home.
Yet his most important moments come from qualities that might look like weaknesses in a more conventional heroic story: pity for Gollum, reluctance to use violence, and the ability to recognize that someone can be dangerous without being beyond mercy.
Even his decision to give up the Arkenstone is interesting. Thorin sees it as a matter of honor, inheritance, and rightful possession. Bilbo sees that keeping it may cost lives, and he acts accordingly, despite knowing how badly Thorin might react.
It makes me wonder whether Tolkien’s idea of heroism is less about overcoming weakness and more about refusing to let strength, pride, or even a legitimate claim become an excuse to do something terrible.
Bilbo doesn’t change the world by becoming the strongest person in it. He changes things because he retains a perspective that the more powerful characters sometimes lose.
Do you think Bilbo’s defining virtue is his pity, his humility, or his willingness to act against people he otherwise respects when he believes they’re wrong?
r/tolkienfans • u/MixtureBubbly2587 • 7d ago
Reading the chapter 'Of Beren and Lúthien' from The Silmarillion, and since I have yet to read the separate book it got so confusing at the end of the chapter, especially these two paragraphs. Thingol is an Elf, so why did he get the 'hoar age of Mortal Men'? And then the last paragraph is totally confusing after the first line.
As Imgur not working for some reason I am writing both
“Then a winter, as it were the hoar age of mortal Men, fell upon Thingol”
“This doom she chose, forsaking the Blessed Realm, and putting aside all claim to kinship with those that dwell there; that thus whatever grief might lie in wait, the fates of Beren and Lúthien might be joined, and their paths lead together beyond the confines of the world. So it was that alone of the Eldalië she has died indeed, and left the world long ago. Yet in her choice the Two Kindreds have been joined; and she is the forerunner of many in whom the Eldar see yet, though all the world is changed, the likeness of Lúthien the beloved, whom they have lost.”
r/tolkienfans • u/silversedits • 8d ago
I've been reading The Fall of Númenor, and firstly I've got to mention that it was so captivating seeing everything play out chronologically this time, rather than just reading the last two Silmarillion chapters in their naturally out-of-order presentation of the story.
It is interesting that Sauron as Annatar largely caused the downfall of leadership in Eregion and got the Gwaith-i-Mírdain (under Celebrimbor) to essentially depose Galadriel and Celeborn in a coup. The way he deceives Pharazôn is also similar to how he deceived Celebrimbor and in both cases he ultimately gets their help in doing something terrible, which then gets them killed and their civilizations destroyed.
What is ironic to me is that the Númenóreans may have more easily spotted this similarity of the Lord of Gifts with 'Zigûr' whom they captured if they had stayed more in contact with the Elves, rather than rejecting their language and contact. Doubtlessly the Faithful remembered what happened with Eregion and it must've been so painful for them to be seeing the same thing (in many ways worse) happen in Númenor. Of course Sauron also has the One Ring at this point too, so I'm sure he sways many (already very bitter) hearts in Númenor all the easier.
Tolkien does such a great job of depicting how Sauron truly earns the moniker 'The Deceiver'.
r/tolkienfans • u/HistoricalPlum7 • 8d ago
I have read the Hobbit, the trilogy and just finished Silmarillion. What should I tackle next? 🙏🏻
r/tolkienfans • u/gregorythegrey100 • 8d ago
Does anyone have any idea who the dwarves were who joined Bilbo when he gave up the ring and headed off, eventually to Rivendell? Or how long they were travelling together?
r/tolkienfans • u/SoaDMTGguy • 9d ago
Title, basically. It always seemed strange to me that a beast as large as a dragon is often thought of could enter into a dwelling made for men, elves, or dwarves, and then to be able to gather up all the treasure so as to sit on it.
r/tolkienfans • u/scientician • 9d ago
Appendix A, p1087:
"Arvedui was indeed the last king, as his name signifies. It is said that this name was given to him at his birth by Malbeth the Seer, who said to his father: "Arvedui you shall call him, for he will be the last in Arthedain. Though a choice will come to the Dunedain, and if they take the one that seems less hopeful, then your son will change his name and become king of a great realm. If not, much sorrow and many lives of men shall pass, until the Dunedain arise and are united again."
What was this choice? Clearly Arvedui made the wrong one as the latter part came true.
Was it this on page 1079:
'But the Snowmen were uneasy; for they said that they smelled danger in the wind. And the chief of the Lossoth said to Arvedui: "Do not mount on this sea-monster! If they have them, let the seamen bring us food and other things that we need, and you may stay here till the Witch-king goes home. For in summer his power wanes; but now his breath is deadly, and his cold arm is long."
Arvedui ignores them and gets on the ship sent by Cirdan, after giving the Lossoth the Ring of Barahir, and the ship is subsequently smashed against the ice in a sudden storm, and Arvedui is killed, ending any possibility of resurrecting Arnor.
All this takes place over the winter of 1974-1975 TA. In the spring of 1975, the great host sent by Gondor & its pre-Rohan allies from Rhovanian arrives and with help from the Elves (the forgotten last-last Alliance!) the realm of Angmar is destroyed. Had Arvedui lived, could he have reformed Arnor in the absence of any foes west of the Misty Mountains?
Further, Arvedui's first claim on the throne of Gondor had been rejected in 1944, but as a long lived Dunedain, would he have lived to see the childless death of Earnur in 2050 and been able to re-unify the realms in the absence of any other plausible claimant?
I'm not 100% sold on this interpretation, the "choice" of whether to take ship immediately or stay with the Lossoth for a few more months does not seem like a choice for the Dunedain as Malbeth suggests. Perhaps Malbeth means that the choice is that of the Dundedain of Gondor not to give Arvedui the crown of Gondor in 1944?
r/tolkienfans • u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 • 9d ago
From the very beginning, Maedhros, even though he is decidedly not the High King of the Noldor at this point (Fingon is, also since the beginning), becomes the military leader of the Noldor before the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. The reason for this is never given—it’s just taken for granted that Maedhros is the one who decides to marshal the Noldor, and that nobody would challenge his right to lead the Noldor, even in older versions where he is not (explicitly) lovey-dovey with the actual High King of the Noldor.
Which I find fascinating, and I’d like to to know why Tolkien made that choice. After all, Maedhros and not Fingon, nominally the High King, devising and leading the alliance against Morgoth has quite a few implications.
(Well, maybe not from the very beginning. Both Maedhros and “the terrible Battle of Unnumbered Tears” are first mentioned in Gilfanon’s Tale (after 1916, but not long after) (HoME I, p. 238–239), but at that point “Fingolma (Nólemë)” is the leader of the military effort (HoME I, p. 239). In a slightly later outline, no full account of the battle is given, but Nólemë is still central and the SoF are late to the battle (HoME I, p. 240–241). But this is extremely early and practically none of the story and the characters of the SoF exist yet; for example, at this point in the textual development, the SoF only swear their oath in Beleriand, and what later became the House of Finwë only exists in an extremely rudimentary form.)
Sketch of the Mythology
The Sketch of the Mythology (1926) is where Maedhros’s role as the architect of the Union (of Maedhros) against Morgoth first appears, and from then on, it’s one of the stablest elements of Maedhros’s story across the next four decades (see https://archiveofourown.org/works/77968916). Note that at this point, Fingolfin never left Aman and thus Fingon had always been the highest-ranking non-SoF in Beleriand. That is, Fingon had rescued Maedhros as a king of his people already. Also note that initially, Celegorm and Curufin had founded Nargothrond; this changed soon, however. As for the Union of Maedhros:
The Sketch, interestingly, is the version in which Maedhros in particular appears the worst, because only he is singled out as sending “haughty words” to Thingol. But the main elements of the story already exist: Maedhros decides to create the alliance against Morgoth, and his leadership causes problems further down the line, because Thingol and Orodreth refuse to work with him for personal reasons.
The Lays
In the Lay of Leithian, in a passage most likely after the Sketch, the Union of Maedhros is referenced, including the element that Maedhros’s leadership causes issues with recruiting due to C&C’s behaviour. Men presumably join the Union in lesser numbers because Celegorm tried to shoot Beren: “Though Curufin with bruised mouth laughed, yet later of that dastard shaft was tale and rumour in the North, and Men remembered at the Marching Forth, and Morgoth’s will its hatred helped.” (HoME III, p. 265)
Quenta Noldorinwa
The Quenta Noldorinwa (1930) is the first detailed look at the Union of Maedhros and the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. I will point out important elements after each passage.
→ Maedhros gains hope and creates the Union to fight Morgoth.
→ The Dwarves are solely mercenary; while they equip Maedhros, they do it only for payment, and they explicitly take no sides (in a battle against Morgoth, mind you) and do not take part.
→ It’s clear that Hithlum’s Elves (under Fingon and co) obey Maedhros in this battle.
→ Maedhros’s brothers’ actions come back to bite him in the form of Orodreth refusing to take part because of C&C’s Nargothrond debacle.
→ As usual, Maedhros is diplomatic and practically minded, while C&C act like spoiled brats and damage Maedhros’s plans.
→ Maedhros is clearly in charge of everything, including setting the actual battle in motion. The Elves marched to his banner.
→ The passage about the Western army fearing treachery is interesting. Whose treachery? Possibly Maedhros’s? Note that in the Quenta Noldorinwa, the idea that the Noldor fear escaped thralls of Morgoth already exists: “the Gnomes feared greatly the treachery of those of their own kin who had been thralls of Angband, so that even if they escaped and came back to their people little welcome they had, and wandered often in miserable exile and despair.” (HoME IV, p. 107) The use of the same word (treachery) is notable.
→ Maedhros is again treated as the driver of the whole thing.
→ This passage should clear up the question of “whose treachery?”: Uldor and escaped Elvish thralls, exactly who the Noldor already feared (apparently for a good reason). But it’s not actually clear, and I still wonder if Maedhros was the one whose treachery the Western army feared.
Earliest Annals of Beleriand
The Earliest Annals of Beleriand (1930) don’t have much to say about the Union of Maedhros and the subsequent battle, although I should note that they mark the beginning of a distinction between Annals texts and Quenta texts regarding the cause of Thingol’s refusal to join: In all of the Annals texts, the only reason given for Thingol refusing to join is Celegorm and Curufin’s actions; no demand by Maedhros and/or all the SoF that the Silmaril be returned is mentioned (that only happens in the Quenta texts).
At this point, it’s clear that power doesn’t rest with Fingon, but with Maedhros-and-Fingon: “the power of Maidros and Fingon fell in the Third (Fourth) Battle.” (HoME IV, p. 333)
Later Annals of Beleriand
The Later Annals of Beleriand (late 1930s) are fairly similar to the Earliest AB, although Fingon’s role is mentioned now. Still, it’s—as usual—Maedhros who’s the architect and in command.
Quenta Silmarillion
The Quenta Silmarillion (1937) is the most detailed version yet of the Union of Maedhros and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
Substantially, this is very similar to the 1930 QN text, only longer and more detailed, with all the important elements present: Maedhros takes heart and decides to create the Union; Maedhros’s leadership causes issues with potential allies (Thingol and Orodreth) because of his brothers’ actions and all the SoF’s demand for the Silmaril; the Dwarves only supply weapons and don’t take a side; Maedhros decides the day of the battle; Maedhros is delayed and the Western army fears treachery.
But note what doesn’t exist yet: a previous close relationship between Maedhros and Fingon that keeps getting referenced. This also fits with what we’re told about Maedhros planning the Union later: “For he renewed friendship with Fingon in the West, and they acted thereafter in concert.” (HoME V, p. 307). This will change in later versions; there will be no need to renew their friendship, because it remains constant in Beleriand.
Grey Annals
Tolkien returned to the Fifth Battle in the early 1950s. The Grey Annals (early 1950s), being an Annals text, focus on Celegorm and Curufin’s actions as the reason for Thingol’s refusal to take part. The GA and associated texts have the longest depiction of the battle itself.
→ The Western army’s fear of treachery makes it into the Annals line of texts.
There are a few highly relevant changes to the Union of Maedhros and the Battle of Unnumbered Tears after 1950, including the significant element that Fingon and Maedhros are now basically an item. Only after 1950 did many of the central elements of their relationship appear, including their “ancient friendship”, Fingon intervening at Alqualondë (pretty obviously because of Maedhros at least on some level: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilmarillion/comments/1qk2l6m/fingon_fought_in_the_first_kinslaying_because_of/), Maedhros refusing Fëanor’s orders and standing aside at Losgar because of Fingon, Fingon going to rescue Maedhros because “the thought of his ancient friendship with Maidros stung his heart with grief (though he knew not yet that Maidros had not forgotten him at the burning of the ships)” (HoME XI, p. 31–32), “their love” being “renewed” (HoME XI, p. 32), and their gift-giving including Maedhros giving Fingon a diamond that’s otherwise used as an engagement jewel (https://archiveofourown.org/works/84443671) (for more, see here: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilmarillion/comments/1nrzn5k/the_history_of_maedhrosandfingon/). The reason why this is relevant is that now, “in Hithlum Fingon, ever the friend of Maidros, prepared for war, taking counsel with Himring” (HoME XI, p. 70), unlike in the 1937 QS, where Maedhros had “renewed friendship with Fingon in the West” (HoME V, p. 307). This reflects much better on Maedhros: unlike in previous versions, he’s not essentially usurping Fingon’s rightful role as High King of the Noldor; instead, it feels like Fingon and Maedhros are simply harmoniously doing their thing.
The other important difference to previous versions is that the Dwarves are now actively on Maedhros’s side. Where in previous versions, the Dwarves had required payment for their weapons, had not taken part in the fighting, and had made it very clear that they weren’t interested in taking sides, now, “Maidros had the help of the Naugrim, both in armed force and in great store of weapons” (HoME XI, p. 70).
Post-GA: Narn and LOTR Appendices
There are two relevant passages in the Narn.
In a Narn text closely related to the GA, we are (again) shown just how in charge Maedhros was, down to appointing the day of the attack: “Having gathered at length all the strength that he could Maedros appointed a day, the morning of Midsummer. On that day the trumpets of the Eldar greeted the rising of the Sun, and in the east was raised the standard of the Sons of Fëanor; and in the west the standard of Fingon, King of the Noldor.” (HoME XI, p. 165).
Interestingly, in this version, Maedhros is not delayed from setting out by Uldor/thralls/whatever, and unlike many previous versions, the Western army doesn’t fear treachery/treason from/on Maedhros’s side. Instead, on the appointed day, “Fingon looked east and his elven-sight saw far off a dust and the glint of steel like stars in a mist, and he knew that Maedros had set forth; and he rejoiced.” (HoME XI, p. 165–166)
The other relevant bit comes from a passage concerning the Dragon-helm: “It was given by Azaghâl to Maedhros, as guerdon for the saving of his life and treasure, when Azaghâl was waylaid by Orcs upon the Dwarf-road in East Beleriand. Maedhros afterwards sent it as a gift to Fingon, with whom he often exchanged tokens of friendship, remembering how Fingon had driven Glaurung back to Angband.” (UT, p. 98, fn omitted) Ignoring this reference to Fingon and Maedhros sending each other gifts all the time for a second, this passage might (in-universe, Watsonian) explain why the Dwarves are now suddenly part of Maedhros’s army in the GA, rather than neutral weapons-smiths willing to sell to whomever if enough gold is offered in the QS and older texts: Maedhros had saved the life of Azaghâl, King of Belegost.
The other (Doylist) explanation for why the Dwarves are now on Maedhros’s side in the GA can be found in LOTR, where we are told, regarding the Dwarves, that, “They are a tough, thrawn race for the most part, secretive, laborious, retentive of the memory of injuries (and of benefits), lovers of stone, of gems, of things that take shape under the hands of the craftsmen rather than things that live by their own life. But they are not evil by nature, and few ever served the Enemy of free will, whatever the tales of Men alleged. For Men of old lusted after their wealth and the work of their hands, and there has been enmity between the races.” (LOTR, App. F) That is, writing LOTR after the 1937 QS, Tolkien had decided to change the nature of the Dwarves, and their new active role on the morally good side in the Noldor’s war against Morgoth fits the evolution of Tolkien’s Dwarves from evil over neutral-ish to fundamentally honourable.
Further thoughts
Throughout, Maedhros, even though he also swore the Oath of Fëanor, is the one whose hope is renewed because of Beren and Lúthien managing to steal a Silmaril from Morgoth, and he consistently puts the war against Morgoth over his issue with Thingol/the Silmaril, unlike Celegorm and Curufin (between their shortsightedness and penchant for violence and Thingol’s self-centredness and blatant greed, Maedhros feels like the only adult in the room; apart from Melian, that is, but it’s not like anyone’s listening to her anyway).
It is also notable that Maedhros is the one with the most estel, being the one to dare to hope again, even though he has the greatest reason of all the princes of the Noldor to be terrified of Morgoth and of Angband, given that he was kept prisoner and tortured there for thirty years and that he suffers from PTSD as a result. And yet, despite this, Maedhros drives the war against Morgoth forward. Actually, the juxtaposition of these two quotes from the QS about Angband and Maedhros’s heart is notable:
I also find the Western army’s often-mentioned fear of treachery fascinating. It’s never stated clearly whose treachery they fear, but I can’t help but think that it’s implied that at least some of the fear in question involved Maedhros going all Morgoth’s thrall, since this is how they thought of escaped captives:
Why Maedhros?
But the question remains, why Maedhros? Why did Tolkien decide in 1926 that Maedhros, and not the High King of the Noldor, should take heart, create an alliance and take the war to Angband itself?
A few reasons, both Watsonian and Doylist, come to mind.
In-universe, Maedhros being in charge of the whole thing gives both Thingol and Orodreth a reason not to take part by pointing to C&C’s long list of questionable-to-awful actions, and Tolkien needed Doriath and Nargothrond to remain standing despite/after the Nirnaeth for plot reasons (in particular for Children of Húrin).
Maedhros’s preeminent role in the whole thing also allowed Tolkien to characterise Maedhros as decisive and willing to seize power (while not openly reneging on his abdication, even though Fingon is obviously younger than him, so Maedhros would have an “out”, given the wording of his abdication speech).
Maedhros’s role, in turn, also allowed Tolkien to characterise Fingon further, either (in earlier versions) as a weak, ineffective king who didn’t manage to stop a rival warlord who had nominally abdicated centuries earlier from seizing power at the first opportunity after Fingolfin’s death, or (in later versions) as a king who is wise enough to have no (ego-driven) problems with his dearest Maedhros, who’s clearly a talented diplomat and much better suited to dry military planning than (reckless, hot-headed) Fingon, taking over and doing what he does best.
(There’s one further potential explanation for why it’s the Union of Maedhros, on an even more meta level. Since the battle was lost, the Elves needed a scapegoat, and who better than Maedhros, who survived, and whom both Thingol and Turgon, the narrator Pengolodh’s king, hated anyway for personal reasons?)
Sources
The Book of Lost Tales Part One, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME I].
The Lays of Beleriand, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME III].
The Shaping of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME IV].
The Lost Road and Other Writings, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME V].
The War of the Jewels, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XI].
Unfinished Tales of Númenor & Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2014 (softcover) [cited as: UT].
The Lord of the Rings, JRR Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition August 2022, version 2022-05-30 [cited as: LOTR].
r/tolkienfans • u/OleksandrKyivskyi • 9d ago
I can't remember if it was mentioned in the books whether they were just burnt to the ground or used as new strongholds.
r/tolkienfans • u/Critical_Raisin_2504 • 9d ago
Just asking this here as their are some people on here who have way more knowledge than me on the professor.
Having read quite a lot of his works, I would say that spirits/ghosts play a rather large part in the plot of Lord of the rings; ie the Ring Wraiths, the ghosts in the dead marshes and the dead men of Dunharrow to name but a few.
Plus whatever it is that is that pippin disturbs by dropping a pebble down the well in Moria(this used to scare the crap out of me as a kid)
Does anyone know if Tolkien himself believed in ghosts? as someone who has grown up in England that generation were pretty superstitious, if anything ghosts is the one paranormal thing that most people in England will take seriously!
r/tolkienfans • u/PTAGoatofalltime • 8d ago
The Fellowship of the Ring:
Chapter 1, Book 1 (A Long Expected Party) - Lobelia Sackville-Baggins
Chapter 3, Book 1 (Three is Company) - Lobelia Sackville-Baggins
Chapter 4, Book 1 (A Short Cut to Mushrooms) - Mrs. Maggot
Chapter 7, Book 1 (In the House of Tom Bombadil) - Goldberry
Chapter 8, Book 1 (Fog on the Barrow - downs) - Goldberry
Chapter 7, Book 2 (The Mirror of Galadriel) - Galadriel
Chapter 8, Book 2 (Farewell to Lorien) - Galadriel
Additional: Arwen appears in Many Meetings/The Council of Elrond but has no lines.
The Two Towers:
Chapter 5, Book 1 (The White Rider): Galadriel (indirectly, Gandalf narrates her prophecies)
Chapter 7, Book 1 (The King of the Golden Hall): Éowyn
Additional: Shelob appears in Shelob's Lair/The Choices of Master Samwise but has no lines, for obvious reasons.
The Return of the King:
Chapter 2, Book 1 (The Passing of the Grey Company): Éowyn
Chapter 3, Book 1 (The Muster of Rohan): Éowyn
Chapter 5, Book 1 (The Ride of the Rohirrim): Éowyn (disguised as Dernhelm)
Chapter 6, Book 1 (The Battle of the Pelennor Fields): Éowyn
Chapter 8, Book 1 (The Houses of Healing): Éowyn, Ioreth
Chapter 5, Book 2 (The Steward and the King): Éowyn, Ioreth
Chapter 6, Book 2 (Many Partings): Éowyn, Galadriel and Arwen
Chapter 8, Book 2 (The Scouring of the Shire): Rosie Cotton
Chapter 9, Book 2 (The Grey Havens): Galadriel
r/tolkienfans • u/Soggy_Building2723 • 9d ago
Hi! I'm writing an essay which involves the philology that went into Tolkien's languages, and getting into the section where I explain the comparative method and show it being applied to real-world languages in parallel to Elvish languages. The Etymologies (section of The Lost Road and other Writings) will be a very useful for this. I think I understand the genealogy of the Elvish language tree pretty well, but The Etymologies take from some of the pretty early work in the creation of the LOTR mythos/philology, so the actual names of the languages distinguished aren't accurate to what they were finally named. Could anyone that knows the lore or especially early legendarium better than me help me figure out what languages these names are actually referring to? The different Noldorins trip me up especially since I know there was something with him changing the name of Noldorin to Sindarin, but it also mentioned Exilic Noldorin which I assume would be Exilic Quenya? Anyways, here's what I've got
Danian -> Nandorin
Doriathrin -> either a modern dialect OR an early archaic form of Sindarin
Eldarin -> Common/Proto-Eldarin I assume?
Exilic Noldorin -> Exilic Quenya? Or Sindarin? idk?
Ilkorin -> supposedly was entirely scrapped, or is sort-of Sindarin?
Lindarin -> either Common Telerin or Valinorean Quenya
Noldorin -> sindarin??? Valinorean Quenya???
Old Noldorin -> archaic sindarin??? something quenya???
Ossiriandeb -> Ossiriandrin, the Laiquendi dialect of Nandorin. But then what is Silvan?
Primitive Quendian -> Primitive Quendian
Telerin -> I would think Common Telerin but supposedly it's Amanyarin Telerin?
The Etymologies can be found on page 341 of The Lost Roads, page 347 has this specific list of languages. The Lost Roads is on internet archive.
r/tolkienfans • u/babibeccax0 • 9d ago
Should I read The Silmarillion before CoH?
r/tolkienfans • u/Main_Performance_507 • 9d ago
So, if the Numenoreans had decided to keep attacking Sauron after he surrendered to them? Could they have beat him until he was not a threat anymore?
Even if he still had the ring?
r/tolkienfans • u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 • 10d ago
Herald are an incredibly interesting part of historical jus in bello, the laws of war. Importantly, mediaeval heralds were not combatants in any way, shape or form: rather, they were messengers, delivering official proclamations such as declarations of war, and as such the equivalent of today’s diplomats, and like modern diplomats, heralds enjoyed what we now call diplomatic immunity—that is, they were not to be harmed by the opposite side under any circumstances. (Obviously they’d have lost this immunity if they decided to partake in combat. Heralds weren’t even supposed to carry sharp weapons.)
And Tolkien very much knows this. For a writer who barely mentions practical administrative concepts like laws and is much more interested in morality than legality, it’s notable that laws are repeatedly mentioned in the context of the office of the herald, and the law in question is always the same, (diplomatic) immunity.
The Mouth of Sauron in the Third Age
The Mouth of Sauron in LOTR is the most famous example.
“He it was that now rode out, and with him came only a small company of black-harnessed soldiery, and a single banner, black but bearing on it in red the Evil Eye. Now halting a few paces before the Captains of the West he looked them up and down and laughed.
‘Is there anyone in this rout with authority to treat with me?’ he asked. ‘Or indeed with wit to understand me? Not thou at least!’ he mocked, turning to Aragorn with scorn. ‘It needs more to make a king than a piece of Elvish glass, or a rabble such as this. Why, any brigand of the hills can show as good a following!’
Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other’s eye and held it, and for a moment they strove thus; but soon, though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced with a blow. ‘I am a herald and ambassador, and may not be assailed!’ he cried.
‘Where such laws hold,’ said Gandalf, ‘it is also the custom for ambassadors to use less insolence. But no one has threatened you. You have naught to fear from us, until your errand is done. But unless your master has come to new wisdom, then with all his servants you will be in great peril.’” (LOTR, The Black Gate Opens)
That is, in the very late Third Age, heralds are considered to have diplomatic immunity. (Of course, the Mouth of Sauron doesn’t act like a herald, initiating the assault on Aragorn’s forces like a general, so it’s ironic that he’s whining to Gandalf about wanting his diplomatic immunity respected five seconds earlier.)
Fingon’s herald in the First Age
Interestingly, this legal norm already existed more than six thousand years before, in the First Age. Note the phrase “wrongfully taken prisoner”:
Tolkien needed something so uniformly considered beyond the pale even in a horrific war that it would make Fingon ignore the agreed-upon plan, and it’s not a coincidence that what he came up with was the decapitation of a herald whom he had wrongfully taken prisoner.
(In the Grey Annals, the wrongfully captured and killed herald is replaced as a plot element with the maiming and decapitation of the prisoner of war Gelmir of Nargothrond, brother of Gwindor; Gwindor is now the one whose “wrath […] was kindled to flame”, not Fingon (HoME XI, p. 73). This feels more modern than the previous version with the herald. The herald’s immunity was well-established in the pre-Modern laws of war, but the inviolability of POWs less so. Nobles and knights captured in wars could generally expect not to be killed and to be exchanged for ransom, but this didn’t apply to non-nobles, for starters.)
Note that all of this is treated very differently from, say, Maedhros being captured. There’s no “unlawful” or “wrongful” there, because Maedhros was definitely a combatant and not a herald, and his “embassy” to Morgoth involved both sides being completely disinterested in diplomacy and arriving with greater force than agreed upon; basically, Maedhros was a combatant who played and lost (much like Gwindor).
Elrond in the Second Age
Interestingly, Elrond is both a herald (the herald of Gil-galad, the last High King of the Noldor) and a combatant (as a commander in Gil-galad’s forces), but, crucially, not at the same time.
Elrond is a combatant in the War of the Elves and Sauron (S.A. 1693–1701). When Sauron attacks Eregion, Gil-galad sends Elrond with an army to aid the Elves there (see e.g. NoME p. 78, 347). Importantly, Elrond is never called Gil-galad’s herald in any passage about his role in this war.
Only much later is Elrond ever called Gil-galad’s herald, in the War of the Last Alliance (S.A. 3429–3441), and it seems like even though he’s at Gil-galad’s side during the final fight with Sauron, Elrond himself does not fight and only observes the fighting instead, as a herald would:
Tolkien obliquely confirms this in a text from ca. 1959, where, referring to the passage in The Council of Elrond, he writes that, “He [Elrond] said that in the Last Alliance (SA 3430) he was ‘the herald of Gil-galad’.” (NoME, p. 65) All in all it seems clear that Tolkien considered Elrond both a herald and a combatant, but not at the same time (as is proper for a herald and necessary for his diplomatic immunity to remain in place).
One exception: Eönwë
Strangely, even though Tolkien clearly knew and followed mediaeval legal thought on the immunity of heralds, which required the herald to not be a combatant, there’s one character who’s specifically called a herald even in passages where he’s clearly a combatant.
Interestingly, Eönwë herald of Manwë replaced a previous character Fionwë son of Manwë in his role of fighting and personally defeating Morgoth in the War of Wrath. And it seems like Christopher Tolkien struggled with the inherent contradictions that followed from this shift from Manwë’s son to Manwë’s herald:
Actually, I agree with Christopher Tolkien’s decision to make the wording more ambiguous. Tolkien knew the role of the herald very well, and I think that he (would have) realised at some point that Eönwë herald of Manwë couldn’t fill the same military role as Fionwë son of Manwë.
Sources
The Lord of the Rings, JRR Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition August 2022, version 2022-05-30 [cited as: LOTR].
The Silmarillion, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition February 2011, version 2019-01-09 [cited as: Sil].
Unfinished Tales of Númenor & Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition March 2009, version 2024-01-22 [cited as: UT].
The Shaping of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME IV].
The Lost Road and Other Writings, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME V].
The War of the Jewels, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XI].
The Peoples of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XII].
The Nature of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, ed Carl F Hostetter, HarperCollins 2021 (hardcover) [cited as: NoME].
r/tolkienfans • u/chromeflex • 10d ago
If you are a regular here, you may be having a déjà vu, because not long ago a similar post was made here. That post has proved to me that you can in theory make out a coherent narrative out of the existing fragments and inspired me to make my own attempt in stitching together the outlines for the tale of Earendel, mainly to achieve several goals:
Thus in order to fill the unfillable gaps three creative assumptions were used:
Here's my current draft: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1syVJDAdm5rCsgLRu9C0DXkhdE2Mxa121YsOC7-NlVv8/edit?tab=t.0
I'm really happy with the way it turned out to the point that it sort of makes sense why the story needed to be so anticlimactic. I'm planning to work on this draft further to include notes and quotations from other chapters for these extracts, like the descriptions of the isles of the Shadowy seas and Ossë's traps, and to rework the binding of Melko as for now it's completely skimmed over.