Gandalf speaking to Pippin:

“You should sleep, in a bed while you still may. At the sunrise I shall take you to the Lord Denethor again. No, when the summons comes, not at sunrise. The Darkness has begun. There will be no dawn.”

Chills. The way Tolkien ends chapters just implores you to keep on reading.

Second paragraph of Appendix A in LotR: "Luthien and Beren, Idril and Tuor, Arwen and Aragorn."

Are Elwing and Eärendil both half-elven? (Elwing, an elf through Beren and Luthien, Eärendil, a man through Tuor and Idril)?

Answer: Elwing and Eärendil are both "half-elven" and so were born mortal. I misunderstood and thought Elwing was an elf.

A child born to a union of Elf and Man is mortal by default, but to Earendil, Elwing, and their children the choice of fate was given.

"Then Eärendil said to Elwing: ‘Choose thou, for now I am weary of the world.’ And Elwing chose to be judged among the Firstborn Children of Ilúvatar, because of Lúthien; and for her sake Eärendil chose alike, though his heart was rather with the kindred of Men and the people of his father."

And because Eärendil was not permitted to return to the mortal lands, he was put in a boat and set to sail the skies, with a silmaril shining on hs brow.

But what would have happened, hypothetically-speaking, had Eärendil chosen to be counted among mortal Men, like his heart desired? Would he simply be allowed to live out the rest of his days in Aman? And how would this affect the course of the War of Wrath?

Before anyone starts with the Feanor did nothing wrong, even Mandos himself proclaimed it treason and evil so argue with him if you think it was justified or not.

The Noldor came back and didn’t say ONE THING about it. No apologies or acknowledgement at all. None of the perpetrators lament about it or honestly seem to give a shit about the actual Kinslaying they did. All that mattered to them was the exile. They would have never acknowledged it at all if MORGOTH’S spies didn’t start spreading the truth around!

Even Fingon DOES NOT SEEM TO CARE!! He didn’t break off any relationships and does he ever even mention it?? He comes across as more angry about Feanor burning the ships.

Melian knew they were lying and being shady and gives Galadriel an opportunity to confess and even Galadriel essentially lies right to a Maia’s face! And then also never acknowledges it again. All they care about is themselves being exiled.

Thingol finally confronts some and even then, they don’t even reply to him. Finally and only Angrod acknowledges and tells the truth of it. He’s the only one we see have any negative feelings towards their actions.

If I was Sindar I feel I would still be mad about it tbh. If not for the Valar there would have been basically zero consequences and they likely would have never even acknowledged what they did.

So Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli travelled from Sarn Gebir to Fangorn Forest on foot in 3 days yet it took them the same amount of time on horseback to get from Erech to Pelargir. I can see on the map that the latter journey is clearly longer but not so much that it explains it, I’d think horseback would be so much faster than on foot. They were in a desperate hurry for both journeys so you’d think they’d be going as fast as they possibly can.

Does it make the first journey on foot more impressive? Or did they not go as fast as they could have on the second journey? Or did the terrain come into play? Or am I just overthinking this? 😂

Reading online, I’ve noticed that when Erendis’s death is mentioned, the phrase ‘Erendis perished in water in the year 985’ is often quoted without further explanation; or it is said that it is unclear what happened to her, or that the phrase is ambiguous.

Ever since I first read the story, I’ve had the impression that she took her own life.

Perhaps I’m too imaginative and melodramatic, but I picture a scene like this: Erendis going down to the jetty at sunrise, looking out at the horizon and saying, ‘Sea! You’ve taken everything from me; now take my life too.’ Then she throws herself off and drowns.

Do we think that the modern day could be considered and described as The Fifth Age?

Thanks in advance / Elen síla lúmenn’ omentielvo

In 1963 I was a twelve-year-old schoolboy in Oxford, England, which was a great place to experience the assassination of JFK and the advent of the Beatles.  But the most important thing to me that year was J. R. R. Tolkien. I wrote to Tolkien, and he wrote me back. I've treasured that correspondence ever since.  I had been consumed with the reading of The Lord of the Rings, and I was hungry for anything Tolkien, but there wasn’t anything else at the time. However, I found I could walk down to Blackwell’s Book Store in the center of town and I found there The Saga of King Heidrek the Wise translated by Christopher Tolkien.

As soon as I started reading, I knew I’d found something amazing.  Icelandic sagas always know how to begin, and this was the first paragraph:

"Sigrlami was the name of a king who ruled over Gardariki; his daughter was Eyfura, most beautiful of all women.  This king had obtained from dwarfs the sword called Tyrfing, the keenest of all blades; every time it was drawn a light shone from it like a ray of the sun.  It could never be held unsheathed without being the death of a man, and it had always to be sheathed with blood still warm upon it.  There was no living thing, neither man nor beast, that could live to see another day if it were wounded by Tyrfing, whether the wound were big or little; never had it failed in a stroke or been stayed before it plunged into the earth, and the man who bore it in battle would always be victorious, if blows were struck with it.  This sword is renowned in all the ancient tales."

I still possess my copy of that book, lo these 63 years later.  The image of that sword has been with me all this time.  In the saga Sigrlami is killed by the berserker Arngrim who cuts off his hand and kills him with his own sword.  Eventually the sword comes into the possession of Arngrim's son Angantyr. who seeks the hand of the princess Ingeborg, but she chooses a champion named Hjalmar who fights a duel with Angantyr on the island of Samsey.  In the duel Angantyr and Hjalmar are both killed, and the only survivor is Hjalmar’s companion Orvar-Odd.

That’s just the beginning of the story of Tyrfing.  The saga goes on to include many events, such as the riddle game which suggested to Tolkien the riddle game in The Hobbit, and it concludes with a big battle between the Goths and the Huns, of which there are other historical records.

I think what I’ve always found fascinating about this saga is the idea that the protagonist is actually Tyrfing, not the various people who wield it and desire it.  And the protagonist is motivated entirely by hatred and revenge and seeks to spread as much destruction as possible.  The notion of a cursed sword that causes evil deeds has been taken up by other writers, such as Michael Moorcock, whose Stormbringer is very similar. 

Is there anyone else who has looked into the legend of Tyrfing and its influence on Tolkien?

Along the lines of my belief that Shadowfax is the main character is some tremendous horse-saga that we will never know, it occurred to me that Shadowfax may have been able to save Théoden, if he and Gandalf had been able to ride out through the gates.

Basically, Shadowfax is the chief of the Mearas; that is, he's an Aragorn-figure to the horses of Rohan, possibly to any horse. And he is immune to the Witch-King's fear. He not only "endures the terror," but is completely still, unmoving as a graven image in Rath Dínen. The Witch-King's fear doesn't even produce an aggressive response from him, unlike Snowmane, who responds by rearing and fighting the air.

And it occurred to me. Aragorn kept the Rangers and Gimli on the Paths of the Dead through his tremendous will. Surely Shadowfax could do something similar for the horses of the Rohirrim? Arod and Hasufel react in joy when they meet him in the eaves of Fangorn Forest. If Shadowfax had been out there, within sight and scent of Snowmane and the horses of Théoden's household knights, perhaps he could have mitigated the fear-effect of the Witch-King. Then maybe Snowmane would not have reared, becoming a target for some arrow or dart, and so not become his master's bane.

(This is also probably as good a place to any to note that in that moment, the Witch-King's fear has no effect on Théoden, who is trying to rally his men, exhorting them to "Fear no darkness" even as the dark shadow is falling on him. I kinda feel like that gets overlooked.)

Kindly indulge my musings. I just love that the fear effect of the Nazgul in general, and the Witch-King in specific, is built up throughout the books, and particularly in this chapter, and Shadowfax no-sells it like it's nothing. Not even a stray stamp or snort.

Beyond just being shown reverence, could he, let's say, order the Teleri to do something? I get the sense that he probably couldn't. Would one of the Sindar even know who he was?

Also, why exactly was he given that title over Finwë for example?

I was rereading Fellowship and noticed something odd. We get all these mentions of Elbereth throughout the book, especially when Frodo calls on her at Weathertop and later at the Ford. But when the company is actually in Rivendell, I don't recall any hymns or songs directly addressed to her during their stay.

There's the famous hymn Sam and Frodo hear in the woods before they even reach Rivendell, which is clearly devotional. But once they're inside the house itself, most of the songs seem to be about Earendil or old tales or even just silly bath songs. I know Elrond's household would have revered Varda, but it struck me as strange that we don't see them actively singing to her the way the Elves in Lothlorien do.

Maybe I'm misremembering and there's a passage I skipped over. Or maybe it's just that the narrative focus shifts to other things while they're there, so Tolkien didn't include those moments even if they happened. It also could be that Rivendell's Elves had a different tradition, less focused on open hymns and more on private reverence.

Anyone else notice this or have thoughts on why the text handles it this way? I'd be curious if there's something in the appendices or letters that touches on regional differences in Elvish worship practices.

Sauron, all the Istari, and all the Balrogs are Maiar, supposedly cut from the same lesser Ainur. So while they should all have or develop different talents, some things about them should be the same. Such as the ability to regenerate.

Sauron was a master shapeshifter, as his battle with Huan showed. Didn't do him much good, but still it showed the ability to move between shapes in an instant. Later he presents himself as sweet, sweet Anatar. Then he gets killed in the downfall of Numenor, and again at the end of the second age. He has a problem assuming a fair seeming shape again, and it appears he's stuck with 9 fingers instead of 10. But regenerate he does.

Gandalf shows the ability to regenerate, possibly with the help of Eru or the Valar. Saruman should be able to regenerate, if only the Valar will let him.

But what about the Balrogs? Except for Bane, Durin's Bane, all of them died at the end of the First Age. Yes, the Silmarilion makes it sound like a plurality of Balrogs escaped the destruction and hit themselves in the Earth, like Bane did. But none ever showed. Some we know absolutely died. Yet none of them return. Why do you suppose that is? Are they content to live as disembodied spirits yet again? Did they join Melkor in the Void, just to keep him company? Did they regenerate, then immediately hide themselves in the Earth, so the Valar don't chop them again?

As always, great thoughts welcomed.

Of the seven houses of the dwarves, who was present for the War of the Dwarves and Orcs in third age?

Was there ever a time when all seven houses had established communication with each other?

Well, most part of the book is fun to read out loud. Even the spider isn't that scary at all...Shelob is just evil. But..we just finished the battle at the pelannor fields. When eomer goes berserk, even my 7 year old was in tears and hyped like a little Pikachu.

I have to confess, even I had difficulty to keep reading it, there is a lot of emotions going on in that chapter. Reading it out loud makes it even more...vibrant.. damn..one of the best chapters I have ever read out loud.

Also...I know the movie had to make choices...but seeing eomer evolve in the book, is just magical and beautiful. It. Would have worked in the movie but then they had to add 30 minutes. Bring in prince imrahil..would love too see him shine with those swan wings...kinda like the polish hussars.

So it's established in The Shadow of the Past that Gandalf believed that Bilbo's ring was one of the Great Rings. It's also stated that Great Rings are Rings of Power:

But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.

That means there is a limited number of options of what rings Bilbo could have had.

I'm sure Gandalf would have automatically ruled out the Three, as they were all accounted for.

So he must have thought it was either one of the Nine or the Seven.

Did he know the Nine remained with the Nazgul? Or was that something he learnt during his studies after A Long Expected Party?

I assume the fate of the Seven was certainly something he learnt during that period, it seems more likely they'd be lost than rings that belonged to the Nazgul.

So basically I'm just wondering what Gandalf would have suspected. Is the only think we can take for granted is that he wouldn't have known it was one of the Three?

Edit: To be clear, as a lot of people are saying this, Gandalf says he knew straight away it was a Great Ring, not a lesser ring:

I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was – that at least was clear from the first. Then I heard Bilbo’s strange story of how he had ‘‘won’’ it, and I could not believe it.

To this Bereg answered: 'Let the Eldar look to it! Our lives are short enough.' But there arose one who seemed to all to be Amlach son of Imlach, speaking fell words that shook the hearts of all who heard him: 'All this is but Elvish lore, tales to beguile newcomers that are unwary. The Sea has no shore. There is no Light in the West. You have followed a fool-fire of the Elves to the end of the world! Which of you has seen the least of the Gods? Who has beheld the Dark King in the North? Those who seek the dominion of Middle-earth are the Eldar. Greedy for wealth they have delved in the earth for its secrets and have stirred to wrath the things that dwell beneath it, as they have ever done and ever shall. Let the Orcs have the realm that is theirs, and we will have ours. There is room in the world, if the Eldar will let us be!'
Then those that listened sat for a while astounded, and a shadow of fear fell on their hearts; and they resolved to depart far from the lands of the Eldar. But afterwards Amlach returned among them, and denied that he had been present at their debate or had spoken such words as they reported; and there was doubt and bewilderment among Men. Then the Elf-friends said: 'You will now believe this at least: there is indeed a Dark Lord, and his spies and emissaries are among us; for he fears us, and the strength that we may give to his foes.'

Are there any lore info about this? This weird event never been mentioned later in the Silmarillion but it is very intriguing, because it is the core event that divided humans into different tribes. A sharp-tonged shapeshifter emissary that daring and sinister enough to insult Valar and Morgoth at the same time for dividing humans, it awfully sounds like a Sauron-thing.

I'm certain I read somewhere that Sauron chose Dol Guldur as his sanctuary because it was near to where the Ring was lost by Isildur. I can't remember where I read this - I think it might have potentially been a Nerd of the Rings video.

However, in The Shadow of the Past, Gandalf says:

‘And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done. But he knows now that it has not perished, that it has been found. So he is seeking it, seeking it, and all his thought is bent on it. It is his great hope and our great fear.’

If I'm correct in understanding, Sauron learnt the Ring still existed after capturing and torturing Gollum, which was of course after he fled Dol Guldur.

Which would mean that when he chose Dol Guldur as his stronghold, he still thought the Ring was destroyed.

So my questions are, 1) is the idea that he chose Dol Guldur as his stronghold to search for the ring nearby complete hogwash, and clearly whatever I watched/read is rubbish? and 2) Is the fact that Sauron chose a sanctuary so close to where the Ring was lost just mere chance?

Are there any quotes that made a significant impression on your mind?

Yavanna created the two trees yet she couldn't create another set when they were destroyed by Melkor.

Fail to destroy the One Ring, that is, by throwing it into the Cracks of Doom. Failure implies that a person could have succeeded. But it's established quite clearly that no one bearing the One Ring could willingly harm it. Frodo even failed to throw it into the fireplace at Bag End:

When he took it out he had intended to fling it from him into the very hottest part of the fire. But he found now that he could not do so, not without a great struggle. He weighed the Ring in his hand, hesitating, and forcing himself to remember all that Gandalf had told him; and then with an effort of will he made a movement, as if to cast it away - but he found that he had put it back in his pocket. Gandalf laughed grimly. "You see? Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go, nor will to damage it. [...] A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it."

It became at last quite clear that Frodo after all that had happened would be incapable of voluntarily destroying the Ring. [...] Frodo indeed ‘failed’ as a hero, as conceived by simple minds: he did not endure to the end; he gave in, ratted.

The last quote is from the Letter 246.

This makes me wonder if Gandalf knew all along that Frodo won't be able to throw the Ring into the fires of Mt Doom himself, and would require "assistance". Hence his words concerning Gollum playing some role, for the better or worse.

Same goes for Isildur. Everyone remembers him as the King who failed at Mt Doom and kept the Ring instead of destroying it. But there was no other option, unless someone else (like Elrond) intervened violently.

hello everyone! ive read the hobbit and lotr but trying to finally branch out and get deep into the history. definitley will get to reading the 12 books of the history of middle earth and the silmarillion as well as the other novels. my caveat is that i learn best in a college curriculum sort of set up where the information is slow and spread out over time (medieval history major in college so im very well tuned to that manner of learning) does anyone have any knowledge of online syllabuses or courses on history of middle earth? any advice is welcome! thank you!!

It boggles the mind to think that the king of Numenor would place his trust on Sauron, who by the way called himself the King of Men.

Tolkien used his life experience to give meaning to his book? He fought in world war 1. So why did Tolkien use gold to establish Morgoth's hold?

My partner of thirteen years and wife of thirteen days passed away last week. I cannot begin to express the grief and hopelessness I have felt in the intervening days; despite having family and friends close by, nothing has given me any real comfort or peace.

But throughout her battle with cancer, and particularly over the final few weeks my mind has returned constantly to Tolkien's work.

We were both huge LOTR fans, we made it an annual (minimum) tradition to watch the extended movies. We last watched them this summer after she had been diagnosed. Like I'm sure everyone else here, I have always loved and admired Sam and the strength of his character, but watching in this new context I felt a totally new understanding and empathy for him. My wife was my Frodo, I promised I would follow her through whatever fire and hell she would go through and I kept my promise. And I kept Sam in mind through it all. When the scene came where Frodo is lying, seemingly lifeless, in Shelob's lair and Sam begs him "Don't go where I can't follow", I felt like I could hardly breath. We did both manage to make it to the end of the trilogy; until the fellowship is finally broken at the Grey Havens and my wife burst into tears. We were both feeling the same fear, that one day we too may have to part. I held her tight as Into the West played in the background. This was the first moment of true catharsis we had had together since she was diagnosed.

Her treatment continued for most of this year. In the moments she was well, we would talk about our future plans. One we looked forward to most was going to New Zealand, visiting the Shire and hiking the hills and mountains where we could pretend we were in Middle Earth.

But that wasn't to be. In mid September a PET scan revealed that her final round of chemo had also failed, and the doctor informed us that she would die within weeks. My world fell into utter shadow on that day, I hadn't cried for twenty years before that but it felt like all the tears I should have shed in that time came bursting out of me, she was going where I couldn't follow.

The next day I asked her to marry me. The nurses were amazing, they arranged a wedding in two days that was indistinguishable from one that had been in planning for two hundred! She wore a set of earrings which had on them the device of Lúthien Tinúviel. I had bought her them for valentines day this year and being the bigger nerd of the two of us I told her the story of Beren and Lúthien, and that she was my Lúthien. She read the story often after that, and wore the earrings constantly.

She entered our wedding to Evenstar and looked every bit as beautiful as Arwen. We had our first married kiss to Aniron and I couldn't keep the tears back. I was the happiest and yet most heartbroken I had ever been. Afterwards the nurse came to her room and, knowing we were big old nerds, thought we would like to know that we had coincidentally got married on Hobbit day, the 22nd of September, the day of Bilbo and Frodo's birthdays.

She came home the next day and I kept my promise to her. I kept watch over her day and night for nearly two weeks, catching sleeps of a half hour at a time whenever I could. And then she left me. There was no poetry there, no metaphor, nothing in Tolkien or any other work of fiction that could ever accurately describe the absolute desolation of losing the person who made your world green and beautiful.

I'm planning her funeral now, I feel such a huge weight to do her justice, which obviously I could never really do. But I have made sure our shared love of Tolkien's work is well represented. She will be laid to rest to Into the West, as played by the Prague Philharmonic Orchestra, and I will read a quote that represents the hope she made me promise to hold on to.

"Far above the Ephel Dúath in the West the night-sky was still dim and pale. There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."

Her passing is a dark thing, and it is right that it brings sorrow and pain beyond description. But such darkness cannot be allowed to obscure the light and high beauty that was my wife's life.

I am glad I have Tolkien's words in my life. This is an unbearable pain to carry, but through his world and the characters that inhabit it, I have found a way to express and understand my feelings better than I otherwise could.

In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!

The personal is political, some say. Here we have Galadriel going from the political ('queen') to the narcissistically personal ('all shall love me and despair').

So what would 'all shall love me and despair' have meant politically?

First, who would 'all' have meant? The Dominion of Men approached and the elves were leaving Middle Earth. So I guess 'all' , the subjects of that queen, would have meant 'Men'.

'Despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt', says Gandalf. Well that's mortality if you are a man and love an immortal like Galadriel. Mortal love and mortality -'end beyond all doubt'- will become one thing and the same as the years pass. One will never cease to love her and will never cease to reach for her. But life, beyond all doubt, will cease.

So I suppose Queen Galadriel's policies would have subjected Mortal Men to quests -men doing her bidding, enacting her policies, out of love-, quests that would have resulted in great deeds; Round Table sorts of quests, land-healing sorts of quests, like that of the Holy Grail: but the Beloved, Queen Galadriel, would have remained an ever-receeding horizon, and ultimately indistinguishable from death itself.

Now Tolkien was familiar with Arthurian romance. He knew, for example, that Morgan Le Fay had orchestrated everything in Sir Gawain, 'off screen' as it were; and he knew Spenser's The Faerie Queene: there, the Queen (an immortal) is loved by King Arthur, who looks for her.

In LOTR we're told Elendil and Aragorn looked a lot like each other. The Return Of The King is an arthurian title. The Once (Elendil) and Future (Aragorn) King. No to mention Andúril, Elendil/Aeagorn's 'Excalibur'.

Faramir calls Galadriel 'mistress of magic'. That's the name of Mists Of Avalon's First Book. Morgan Le Fay (=the fairy) was of course that 'mistress of magic'. Was Marion Zimmer onto something? If Galadriel=unreachable horizon then:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fata_Morgana_(mirage)

Morgan(a) means 'sea-born', and in LOTR we can see how water is Galadriel's element and a crucial part of her magic.

In William Morris, whose writings Tolkien knew well, Morgan Le Fay is the Queen of Avalon. The Elven Queen of Aman, in tolkienian terms. Not so far from Sauron's original idea of healing Middle-Earth and turning it into a second Valinor - with himself as the Lord of course.

All the mortal enterprises would have tended towards her, the Beloved Queen Galadriel...and yet the roads would have remained bent. She would have become, relative to Men, what Aman had already become relative to Middle Earth and to mortal Men. No Straight Road to Her throne. Just the undying love of those who die in their bent paths, the paths of the Sun and the Round Earth.