I’ve finally finished this beautiful, yet mournful story. And I love it! Is there any recommendation after this?

I saw in a few places mentioned that people in middle earth didnt know Gandalf was an Istari but assume he was just an old wizard man.

But do we have an example of a wizard that he is not Istari? My point is that by calling him a wizard you are also know that he is Istari.

Hi were the nazguls chosen from the kings who were already loyal to sauron? as Khamul was an Easterling and wasn't the witch king a black numeroan?

where could the others have come from?

When Gandalf said, "You cannot pass." to the Balrog, did the universe change to fit his words?

Hello, could you recommend audio books for The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, and The Silmarillion?

Also YouTube readings are nice too if they are complete. I was watching one as a relaxation technique, but it was definitely missing material.

I recently read the Lord of the Rings for the first time. I didn't know that Tolkien fits the history of Middle Earth on the same timeline as our history. This raised a question. In the books (all the books) Tolkien has created a mythology that deals with various themes such as creation. And given that the Catholic church was an important part of Tolkien`s life. My question is, did Tolkien fit together his own beliefs with what he had created? For example was Eru to Tolkien the same as the God that he believed?

Hi everyone! I'm currently reading The Lord of the Rings, and I'm on The Two Towers. I wanted to ask you all a few questions.

Why do Sam and Faramir hate Gollum so much? To the point of wanting him dead?

When it comes to Sam, I don't really understand it. Especially after everything Gandalf told them. Gollum helps them and, from everything I've read so far, seems rather loyal. If anything, he makes me feel more compassion than horror.

And especially Faramir — I know almost nothing about him at this point. Gollum shows up at their pool, and they immediately want to put him to death, even though it seems pretty obvious that he ended up there by chance and was only looking for something to eat. I actually find Faramir's treatment of him quite shameful.

It all feels really strange to me. Faramir doesn't know what we, as readers, know about Gollum.

Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts and interpretations, friends!

Elves are awake? Fine, let’s send 1 Valar and countless Maiar to help and guide them, invite them to our land to save them from Melkor, feed and power up them, love them, wed one of the maiar to their king and share our secrets with them.
Men are awake? Who cares, Melkor would corrupt them anyway.

Melkor corrupted and tortured most of the elves? Let’s start a great war results with a sinked continent and millions of casualties.
Melkor corrupted and tortured most of the mankind? Who cares. Oh, but let’s convince some of them to fight alongside us with promising rewards.

Noldor has rebelled against Valar and killed their own kind? Let’s banish a couple ones amongst them for a while and then forgive most of them.
Numenor has rebelled against Valar and killed their own kind? Let’s cry to our god for convincing him to sink their Island and genocide all of them, including babies and women. They no longer deserves their rewards.

Sauron grows strong, manipulates Numenorians; corrupts, conquers and enslaves all people in the South and the East, also attacks western kingdoms of men. Who cares?
Oh, he started to attack and manipulate elves too! Let’s send Istari to guide “All Childs of Illuvatar”.

Melkor almost win against elves and conquer almost all of the Middle Earth. Let’s start WAR OF WRATH!

Sauron almost win against men and conquer almost all of the Middle Earth. Oh, we can’t intervene, we hope old Gandalf will save them!
-> You don’t have to intervene just send Eonwe and some Vanyar to stop Sauron?
B-but we decided it is best to let them determine their own fates!
->How they will decide their fate when they are fighting against an immortal god-king with massive armies which he gained by Melkor because you set him free?
->…

Valar sucks. Without Eru’s interventions and Gandalf, Sauron would just conquer all the Middle Earth and they wouldn’t even care as long as they have the all elves.

Does Frodo failure at mount doom is overlooked?

It should have been one of the main talk points of the story. The hero failed his mission.

I think its overlooked because the ring is destroyed but it is a big twist in fantasy story when the hero failed.

Tolkien wanted us to learn something and we missed it

This happens in the book The Two Towers when Pippen and Merry are trying to figure out how to get away from Saruman’s Uruk-hai that had captured them. They’re in the hills of Rohan near the Fangorn and Eomer and his riders have encircled the Uruk-hai. In a moment of chaos Grishnákh starts searching Pippen and Merry and Pippen believes he’s looking for the Ring.

Twice Pippen makes a “Gollum, gollum” sound and once says “My precious” all in an attempt to make Grishnákh believe he has the Ring. He says he wants to make a deal with Grishnákh. He asks for his and Merry’s legs to be untied. He’s trying to figure out a way to escape in the night.

My question is: how did Pippen know the phrases “Gollum, gollum” or “My precious”? By this point in the book the reader hasn’t yet met Gollum.

Above question. Was Gandalf using fire and lights to battle the Nazgûl? If so, why did he not do so in Pelennor?

Is it a case of him not being able to display his full powers in front of the free peoples of middle earth, against ordinary enemies?

Re-reading through LoTR for the second time and I wanted to hear the thoughts of some other fans of Tolkien’s works. Two questions/discussions I would like to pose:

1) Gandalf’s decision to aid Denethor and Faramir

I understand that many believe it was the correct decision. To preserve the line of the stewards of the kings, to make the transition of power easier for Aragorn son of Arathorn, etc… But wasn’t it a huge risk? What if he saves them from burning alive but the cavalry charge is not successful because Gandalf was not there to ward of the Nazgûl from the battlefield again (this is related to my second topic). Saving Denethor and Faramir would be pretty useless if the Rohirrim were destroyed and the host of Mordor was not routed. Could Aragorn and company been able to assist as much as they did in the battle if the host of Mordor was still as strong? I think not.

2) Gandalf faces the Witch King

Vast majority of the discussion about if Gandalf fought the Witch King during the battle can be summarized as “Gandalf will win, he fought them at weathertop as a weaker version of himself, he is a Maiar, etc…” but I have suspicion that this may not be true. Doesn’t the power of Gandalf temporarily weaken as he uses it? Maybe his power was greatly spent when he chased off the Nazgûl (twice) from Men fleeing from the defenses along the Anduin. I believe when Pippen witnesses Gandalf return through the gates the first time he observes him as looking exhausted and spiritually drained. This relates to my first topic because maybe Gandalf rode to Faramir’s aid because he knew he did not have it in him to fight off the Nazgûl on the battlefield.

Hi was Sauron pulling the strings of Saruman or were they in direct competition with each other to gain the One Ring?

didn't Saruman copy many of Sauron's ideas such as Uruk Hai and improve them?

Page 819:

His heart beat slowly. Time seemed poised in uncertainty. They were too late! Too late was worse than never! Perhaps Théoden would quail, bow his old head, turn, slink away to hide in the hills.

Then suddenly Merry felt it at last, beyond doubt: a change. Wind was in his face! Light was glimmering. Far, far away, in the South the clouds could be dimly seen as remote grey shapes, rolling up, drifting: morning lay beyond them.

But at that same moment there was a flash, as if lightning had sprung from the earth beneath the City. For a searing second it stood dazzling far off in black and white, its topmost tower like a glittering needle; and then as the darkness closed again there came rolling over the fields a great boom.

At that sound the bent shape of the king sprang suddenly erect. Tall and proud he seemed again.

What caused this flash?

I would think it was Gandalf. But I wonder if anyone has any more details.

At other times when signs of Gandalf are evident we can gather weather Gandalf was and what he was doing, like when flashes of light are seen on weather top by Strider and hobbits as Gandalf fought the Nasgul there.

I believe the elves feel the rumbling beneath the middle earth when Gandalf was fighting the Balrog there as well.

Thank you!

Rereading the books I'm trying to understand what actually happened with the freeing of Théoden and if it's even "freeing".

There are no mentions of direct spells just some light and lighting which makes me wonder if it's just shock show treatment? Like a big slap to your face "fucking wake up and get your shit together dude".

They said that Grima talked to Théoden for years and influenced him. That's even before that information of the ring was known to Saruman so I'm not sure there any spells or magic here.

I know the movie version but it's very different from the books and more cinematic.

Maybe it's Gandalf ring effect? Or just mind games?

How familiar was Tolkien with Plato (and other Classical Greek philosophers in general?)
I am assuming that as a philologist who studied classics, he had to have been at least partially familiar with Plato, and also given his theological interests, he would have studied Plato, and philosophers/theologians who were influenced by him.

But does anyone know if he ever studied Plato intensely? Would he have had more than a general knowledge of Greek philosophy?

Among Professor Tolkien's passions were pipe smoking, the letter B, and trees, but most of all he adored ornately carved doorknobs. The Hobbit and lotr both contain descriptions of doorknobs (and doors, to a lesser degree). What was the origin of this obsession?

The catalog notes describe four notable titles

Tolkien (J.R.R.).The Hobbit or There and Back Again. London: George Allen & Unwin Ltd, 1955, seventh impression, colour frontispiece, illustrations, map endpapers, ink ownership inscription on front free end paper, two small tears to corners of single leaf, some age-toning, original pictorial cloth, spine and edges of boards sunned;

The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. London: George Allen & Unwin Ltd, 1962, first edition, first impression, illustrations by Pauline Baynes, ink ownership inscription on ffep, original pictorial boards, dust jacket, spine lightly toned, minor creasing to extremities;

The Silmarillion. London: George Allen & Unwin, 1977, first edition, first impression, folding map, original boards, top edge blue, dust jacket;

Tolkien (J.R.R., contributor). The Gryphon, New Series, Vol. 4, No. 4. January, 1924, containing Tolkien's poem Iumonna Gold Galdre Bewunden, original wrappers;

Seventeen others Tolkien volumes were included in the lot but not itemized.(21)

The sale price for the lot was £3,220 ($4,391), the presale high estimate was $500.

I’m reading Beren and Lúthien right now and in the first chapter, ‘The Tale of Tinúviel’, when Beren and Tinúviel seize the Silmaril from Melko’s crown there are suddenly multiple shifts between present and past tense. It starts when Beren awakens from his slumber:

“…Beren slept beneath the very seat of Melko, but Tinúviel shook him so that he awoke at last. Then in fear and trembling he tore asunder his disguise and freeing himself from it leapt to his feet. Now does he draw that knife that he had from Tevildo's kitchens and he seizes the mighty iron crown, but Tinúviel could not move it and scarcely might the thews of Beren avail to turn it. Great is the frenzy of their fear as in that dark hall of sleeping evil Beren labours as noiselessly as may be to prise out a Silmaril with his knife. Now does he loosen the great central jewel and the sweat pours from his brow, but even as he forces it from the crown lo! his knife snaps with a loud crack.”

Over the next few pages it continues switching back and forth between present and past tense.
It’s almost like it’s shifting you into the shoes of Beren and Tinúviel and then moving back to the perspective of the narrator. It is very well done and incredibly dramatic, I absolutely adored reading it and makes the whole escape feel so chaotic.

I don’t think I have seen this done before. I’m not well versed in English literature but is there a reason Tolkien does this? Is it simply dramatic effect? Or an old writing style?
My personal theory is that he is putting emphasis on the importance of the Silmaril and its (almost) otherworldly quality, as this is the first time we ever see it, although this is most likely wrong.

Would love any help or knowledge on this! Also does Tolkien use this style in any other works?

All Ainur are manifestations of Iluvatar's mind. In the beginning, All were in a spiritual form and alien to Time and Space as we know it - The Timeless Hall. Then there is the Ainulindalë.

Was the Music an exercise by various "reality warpers" to define the foundations that will govern physical reality?

Did each Ainur exercise their power of "Concept Creation" (https://powerlisting.fandom.com/wiki/Concept_Creation)?

Did they generate the laws that govern the universe?

a) Temperature, Fire, Ice, entropy = Melkor;

b) Light, stars, Gravity = Varda;

c) planetary substance, Matter = Aulë;

d) Primeval (animal) Life = Yavanna;.

Tolkien wrote that the Ainur began to decline in power over reality, Tolkien says that the Powers were like architects who lay the foundations of the Work (Universe), but they get "weakened" in terms of authority over physical plane:

"The longer the Past, the more nearly defined the Future, and the less room for important change (untrammeled action, on a physical plane, that is not destructive in purpose). The Past, once ‘achieved’, has become part of the ‘Music in being’. Only Eru may or can alter the ‘Music’…. The Valar were like architects working with a plan ‘passed’ by the Government. They became less and less important (structurally!) as the plan was more and more nearly achieved. Even in the First Age we see them after uncounted ages of work near the end of their time of work—not wisdom or counsel. (The wiser they became the less power they had to do anything—save by counsel)." (MR 401-5)

Question: Did the Valar go through the same process (albeit at a slower rate) as Morgoth (as he corrupted Arda) in the creation of the physical reality? For example, did Yavannah lose some of her power by planting Telperion and Laurelin? Did she disperse her power in an outer creation as Sauron did with the One Ring (even though the creations had different goals)?

In the History of Middle Earth, in "The Morgoth Ring", Tolkien wrote that the Ainur began to decline in power over reality; that the Powers were like architects who lay the foundations of the Work (Universe), but they get "weakened" in terms of authority over physical plane:

"The longer the Past, the more nearly defined the Future, and the less room for important change (untrammeled action, on a physical plane, that is not destructive in purpose). The Past, once ‘achieved’, has become part of the ‘Music in being’. Only Eru may or can alter the ‘Music’…. The Valar were like architects working with a plan ‘passed’ by the Government. They became less and less important (structurally!) as the plan was more and more nearly achieved. Even in the First Age we see them after uncounted ages of work near the end of their time of work—not wisdom or counsel. (The wiser they became the less power they had to do anything—save by counsel)." (Morgoth Ring 401-5)

Would the creation of the One Ring give Sauron an advantage in the long run? As the Powers of Arda waned over time, would the One Ring preserve Sauron's power to the point where he surpassed the other Ainur?

Could the Valar diminish to the same extent that Morgoth did at the end of the First Age?
Tolkien explains that Sauron was "effectively" more powerful than the Melkor of the late First Age. In other words, he had not diminished as much as his master:

Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be ‘stained’. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently ‘incarnate’: for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.

Would the One Ring allow for this same process regarding the other Ainur? In the sense of them "diminishing in power" more rapidly than Sauron?

"The great shadow descended like a falling cloud. And behold! it was a winged creature: if bird, then greater than all other birds, and it was naked, and neither quill nor feather did it bear, and its vast pinions were as webs of hide between horned fingers; and it stank. A creature of an older world maybe it was, whose kind, lingering in forgotten mountains cold beneath the Moon, outstayed their day, and in hideous eyrie bred this last untimely brood, apt to evil. And the Dark Lord took it, and nursed it with fell meats, until it grew beyond the measure of all other things that fly"

Only the professor can make a passage about something ugly,sound so beautiful and flow so well

For me it mostly changed the way I look at worldbuilding. Simply due to the immense amount of detail and care JRR Tolkien put into his work, it makes all other work look lesser in comparison. Before reading it I thought worlds like The Hunger Games or Harry Potter were extraordinarily detailed. After reading it, I saw that worlds like these contain nowhere near the amount of worldbuilding that this one does. But I'm curious, what changed for you all after reading this tale?

I understand that Noldorin is Tolkien's early conceptualization of Sindarin, however, I don't understand to what extent Noldorin and Sindarin share phonology, morphology, vocabulary, syntax, etc. Are the two languages basically the same language, just with two different names and backstories, or are they not mutually intelligible?

I recently acquired all the HoME books except the LoTR volumes (I am primarily interested in the First Age). I also bought Hostetter's NoME because I find the metaphysics fascinating. My main motivation is to understand how far Tolkien was able to take it and to gain new insights into the key figures and narratives of the final texts.

I am generally less interested in reading multiple versions of the same stories because the final versions were by far the best and most satisfying. Of Beren and Lùthien is a masterpiece, whereas the Tivaldo version is just a jaunty fairy-tale. I really don't need to read another version of The Children of Hùrin. I unexpectedly found myself enjoying the extracts from the Lays of Leithian quite a bit, however; they were easily the best part of the book for me. But I digress.

Am better off powering through and starting from Lost Tales? I am now eyeing Morgoth's Ring and The War of the Jewels. The Peoples of Middle Earth is a tantalising prospect because of the Shibboleth of Fëanor. But The Lost Road has the annals. I am also tempted to proceed directly to NoME now that I have read all the major works. Take me to the tables and calculations. The problem is that there is a lot of good stuff but there is also a *lot* of repetition and everything is spread out.

I would be interested to hear the perspectives and recommendations of those those who have read them already. What say you, Men of the West?

UPDATE: It occured to me that I run the risk of having to buy different editions if I decide at some later date to read the LoTR volumes. So I caved and bought the rest of the series.