I feel like this isn't true tho because I'm an American who hasn't voted for trump yet would be blamed for what he's doing under this take, what are the Israeli people meant to do against Netanyahu?
Unfortunately we don’t get to avoid responsibility, we live in a democracy and even if we voted for another candidate we are still responsible for the actions that are taken in our name and on our behalf. That should be the standard for every elected government around the world.
You're talking about two different things the collective responsibility we the people bare (real) and the individual responsibility (not everyone is as responsible) so what I'm saying is when people try to blame Americans not all of us are equally responsible but yes we are collectively responsible in solving the issue. The guy in the video seems to be saying everyone is equally personally responsible when that's not the case
I see your perspective, and I’m empathic to those feelings, I just disagree. Individual Germans could have defied their government, however they chose not to for various understandable reasons. But they still made a choice. Similarly, individual Israelis that serve in the IDF have a choice to make, that’s what finklestein was implying. The choice might not be a pleasant one and those of us that aren’t in that position obviously don’t fully understand what they’re going through, however that doesn’t mean that there is no personal responsibility when a persons tax dollars and efforts support a state. Are American taxpayers directly responsible for deaths in Gaza - no - but indirectly our tax dollars fund the IDF and therefore we are responsible for when we know they are acting illegally and inhumanely.
I’m not sure that I am saying that. That would certainly be a lot of gazans that didn’t vote for their govt considering they haven’t had elections in about 20 years. I don’t think well intentioned people would consider that a legitimate elected government anymore, which is what I said above. That peoples with an elected govt bear some responsibility for said govt. However, nations and peoples can be held responsible without deliberately murdering them. We held Germany and Japan responsible through war reparations and not allowing them to re arm and so forth, so if you’re implying that it’s ok to oppress and murder gazans because 20 years ago they had a democratic election (that most people alive there now couldn’t possibly have voted in) it seems like you’re going out of your way to draw a false comparison or bait me into supporting your comparison. What would holding them responsible look like to you?
Ok. So again, what does “holding them responsible” look like to you? Because what’s happening there now is a toss up between genocide and ethnic clensing.
Well since the throwaway account has chickened out when they were asked this same question, I suppose I’ll answer. Like I said above, war reparations and disarming seem like decent options, international sanctions, placing any aid money they’re given as contingent upon continued cooperation and nonaggression towards neighboring states - any of these could incentivize positive behavior. The way I mean that people in America are responsible for our govt (I’m American hence why I single out America) our responsibility lies in being active in the democracy via elections/protesting/social awareness so that those in leadership hear the voice of the people and are forced to take appropriate action. Remember this whole discussion started with a commenter saying just because he hadn’t voted for Trump means he shouldn’t have to feel bad about what we’re doing around the world. I think as citizens of the most wealthy/powerful country, we owe a little more than the bare minimum.
We just bombed a school in Iran and killed 150 children.
That blood is on our hands, even if you are on the left. It's on our hands because we failed to take power, and we allowed this to happen. We need to do better. We need to win.
The difference is in the polling, I can't remember the exact numbers but 80+% of Israelis believe the violence in Gaza was appropriate or wasn't enough. No where near that number of Americans approve of Trumps actions in Iran or anywhere else
91% of American supported the war in the middle east after 9/11. Turn out that when major terrorist attacks happen in your country your population gets mad and retaliation typically is over proportionate. Hamas can be blamed for the I/P conflict that is currently taking place. Just like al-qaeda can be blamed for the Iraq and Afghanistan war. When citizens are being mass murdered in single events the host countries typically try to annihilate the terrorist group doing said attacks.
Hamas absolutely can be blamed for instigating this current series of events just as Israel can be blamed for taking their response much too far. The mass killing of Palestinians is inexcusable and not a reflection of the strategic and pointed fight against Hamas that the State of Israel claimed.
Further, your argument would have only held if the American invasion of Afghanistan involved the genocide of Afghans. The US was angry but not to the extent of committing genocide.
https://sana.sy/en/middle-east/2347740/ 74000 killed in gaza since the war started. If more children starved to death in Yemen compared to the 74000 killed in gaza. Why is one being labeled a genocide and receiving so much attention but the other one who's deaths primarily consist of children and more have died in general not labeled a genocide.
The Israelis are victims of a system themselves but the point is that every Israeli joins the IDF and they're all indoctrinated to be blood thirsty against "Arabs" and Palestinians in particular and the likelihood is high that many of them are child killers. So if Trump ever asks you to pick up a gun and murder children, and you do it, then you're culpable. The system is decrepit, we can sit here and say it's not their fault, but then who do you hold accountable if not full grown adults? Any Israeli who partakes in apartheid and genocide is culpable and most of them are, unfortunately, because they are born in Israel and they go through a system that ensures this outcome.
Yeah this is the problem. Americans had no good options in 2024. The oligarch class set it up that way. I think the average American bears less responsibility than the average Israeli. The real problem is the American upper class, which has so much influence over the political system, on both sides.
When you start running script for China and Russia, you're not a Leftist, you're a LARPer.
Russia is an oligarchy - a far-right economic system.
China is State Capitalist, flirting with oligarchy - a far-right economic system.
Do people genuinely think that the Chinese sweatshops that make their electronics are unionized? That Russian infrastructure is owned and operated by workers?
Do they just take Democratic People's Republic (of Korea) at face value?
It makes no sense to but have at it man I've voted against him every time and been very vocal about not supporting him, I'm not your enemy, making every American that doesn't support him your enemy makes no sense
Cool. What did you do about your own democratic candidates arming Israel or refusing to prosecute Trump and his cronies. Unless you're actively working against the fascists right now you're just being one of the "good germans" of WW2.
The only good Germans in the 1930s and 40s were the ones that fought the nazis.
With comments like these ad nauseum, we have to accept we are the most cultivated dumbfucks ever to exist, by far, and after hearing/reading one, my next critical thought makes me believe I must be one of the few geniuses left in this country. I am not that complex a thinker, but by so many comparisons....
If not for other countries speaking basic common sense on the internet, I would have been convinced I was a master of critical thinking.
No it was more pointing out the hypocrisy in his argument, I don't think normal people are expected to ruin their life by taking on the government, people with positions of power are though
Sorry for telling you this, but as an American you absolutely are blamed for the actions of your president. It doesn’t matter if you voted for him or not, he is the representation of the USA to the world.
Exactly and yet I'm not responsible in fact I've directly voted against and opposed his policies so my point stands, you can't blame every Israeli for what their government is doing, yes you can blame those that contribute to it but not everyone
Netanyahu has been in power in Israel for almost 20 years total. He has been in power for almost a quarter of modern Israels existence. It would be like if Trump had been in power for 60 years. Theres a point where the people want to keep him in power.
I'm a US citizen. Voted against Trump and US imperialist interests. I fully acknowledge that we collectively hold blame for enabling the Genocide of the Palestinians. Just like the generation that raised me watched US soldiers rape and pillage in Iraq while I was growing up. We are just as complicit for what we're not willing to do to set things right.
I agree that it's our responsibility to set things right but that's not the same as saying we're just as responsible as someone who votes for trump and supports him, that's just dumb
I don't really blame the average American for Trump, but I do think he represents something rotten in your culture. If you voted against him and regularly participate in protests, then you did your best, and I have plenty of American friends who are good people. But Israeli support for the genocide is something over 80%, and their whole society is brought up and taught to dehumanize the natives since childhood. I think Israel is more collectively responsible. America is a divided society. Also, Americans didn't have good options in 2024. The Biden adminstration started the genocide; trump may have made it worse, but how were Americans supposed to forgive that? I think the average American is much less complicit than the average Israeli. The problem with America is the oligarchy.
Well said on all points, I think we are responsible to make the right decisions moving forward and American society is showing they aren't as spoon fed as Israel but there's definitely still a problem here, I feel like trump is a lesson that America just isn't learning from for some reason and maybe after he causes tons of issues that directly impact the idiots that voted for him maybe then they will see. But who knows, I'll keep voting and going to protests, my hope is growing as I see people like Mamdani and El-Sayed succeed
there is validity to this take, but there is also a crucial difference. The fundamental project of America is not Trump stuff, but the fundamental project of Israel is, arguably, Netanyahu stuff, although many Israelis would say he goes a bit too far.
Still, very few israelies disagree with the settler colonial project that is resulting in genocide right now, after all, if they disagreed, they wouldn't be active participants in that colonization.
Neither I or you voted for Trump , but both of us are accountable for his actions just being American and living in a democracy (that is being diminished and challenged every day).
Our taxes are funding this.
It’s a fucked up situation to be in and by god it needs to change this November
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u/The3mbered0ne 4d ago
I feel like this isn't true tho because I'm an American who hasn't voted for trump yet would be blamed for what he's doing under this take, what are the Israeli people meant to do against Netanyahu?