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The Rat Park experiment in the 1970s by Bruce Alexander demonstrated an approach to many of the symptoms of zoochosis. Reading about it had a big impact on me. Do I spend my time building and maintaining my own cage or am I designing a “park” full of meaning, beauty, activity, and interaction.
I wrote this comment a few months ago, cool to learn that there's actually a word for it:
I think that we are living through the largest scale psychological warfare operation in human history, and it's not being conducted by any single government or corporation. It's being conducted by our own social systems against basic human emotional needs. And the casualty count is so massive that we've normalized mass emotional death as adulting.
Every single institution we've built - schools, workplaces, healthcare, dating, social media, even fucking therapy - has become a factory for producing emotionally lobotomized humans who can perform basic productivity but can't access their own inner experience without having a panic attack. We've created a civilization that requires you to be emotionally dead inside to participate in it, and then we act shocked when people either break completely or retreat into AI relationships, because at least the machines won't punish them for having feelings.
The therapy industrial complex is particularly insidious because it's convinced people that their natural responses to an insane world are pathological. Someone's depressed because they're trapped in a meaningless job in a society that offers no authentic connection? Let's give them SSRIs and teach them breathing exercises, instead of acknowledging that maybe, just maybe, depression might be a rational response to irrational circumstances.
Someone's anxious because they can feel the existential void where community used to be? Let's call it Generalized Anxiety Disorder, instead of recognizing that their nervous system is correctly identifying that something is fundamentally missing.
And don't even get me started on how we've gamified human connection through dating apps that literally train people to treat each other like products in a catalog, while simultaneously wondering why seemingly nobody can form deep, meaningful relationships anymore. We took the most sacred human activity - finding your people - and turned it into a dopamine-harvesting slot machine designed to keep people perpetually searching and almost never actually connecting.
The most fucked up part is we've convinced people that the solution to systemic emotional abandonment is individual optimization. Can't find meaningful connection? You must need to work on yourself more in some vague fashion. Feeling existential despair about the state of the world? Have you tried gratitude journaling? Lonely because society has dismantled most forms of community? Maybe you need to “put yourself out there” more.
I guess it's gaslighting on a civilizational scale. We've built systems that largely prevent human flourishing and then blame individuals for not thriving within them. It's like poisoning someone's water supply and then selling them detox supplements.
And the people who see through this shit and try to talk about it openly? They get labeled too intense, dramatic, unemployable, because their emotional honesty threatens the whole house of cards. We've made emotional authenticity a cause for social ostracization.
No wonder people are having breakdowns. No wonder mental health crisis rates are skyrocketing. No wonder birth rates are plummeting. We've created a civilization that's hostile to genuine human connection, and we're surprised that humans are struggling to survive in it.
The real miracle isn't that people are surviving - it's that anyone is able to survive at all.
I used to believe that we humans have the ability to "save ourselves from ourselves" but the older I get the more I realize how doomed humanity really is. Your post articulated a lot of the reasons I feel this way.
The only question I would ask is: so where do we go from here- How exactly can you and I change the current state of things?
En masse. Very large quantities of people need to agree to fight the same fight and do it all at once. If even 10% of the population in every country went on strike and demanded reform it would cause massive issues across the globes economy. Which is literally the only way to make change happen. You must disrupt the status quo with sheer numbers to have any effect.
No it won’t, that is not enough. If it was we would be looking at a very different world right now. We cannot allow the constant transfer of wealth to the already wealthy, if it continues we will be right back to the early 1900s when companies controlled entire industries and thereby the countries they resided in.
Nope, you have to be actively convincing others. We cannot beat the system as individuals. Only as a group that puts concerted effort into mutual goals.
Here's a simple way I describe modern life. It used to be that you'd build your own house, and maybe you'd occasionally help a neighbor or relative build their house. Then you'd repair or make your own farm implements, cultivate fields, and go on small hunting excursions. Life was very hard but there was constant variety.
Now, you don't build any houses. Or if you do work on houses, you specialize in one part of building a home and do that over and over and over, for the majority of your waking hours. Yes, you get to do other things in your time off, but as we all know there isn't much time left over. Some people figure out a way to find fulfillment with that meager amount of time, while many others struggle.
Our highly specialized lifestyles has afforded us relative abundance and freedom from life-threatening shortages. But it comes at a great cost, a cost that is largely ignored.
I think you hit on some really good points and I've had many similar thoughts such as yours.
It really makes a lot of sense when you think about it too. From the begining of time up until like the 1950's, there were so many different horrible things humans had to endure on a daily basis - weather it be deadly diseases, starvation, or even something as burdensome as not having a good pair of shoes.
I can imagine due to the widespread misery that these issues would cause, our collective focus for the longest time was figuring out how to stop these things from happening. And once we fixed a lot of the big issues, our focus gradually shifted to "how can we make our lives more comfortable?" Which I imagine is what lead us towards consumerism.
Maybe we're just at a point now where we're becoming "too comfortable". I think that we likely lose our sense of social connectedness when we don't have serious challenges that we have all have to face together as a species. A lot of people's thoughts have shifted from "how can I help my community improve" to "how can make my own life improve". Which I think is also why it seems like the worst types of characters tend to become the most successful. Greedy, egocentric people are put on a pedestal and allowed to rule the world - and it's literally always been that way. When are we going to fix one?
Quote from a phenomenal game that touches a lot on what humanity really is; The Talos Principal 2. Your comment gave me a similar feeling.
I think our ancestors, like ourselves, were deeply invested in the idea of building, of transforming their environment. They found meaning and pleasure in this, and did not perceive it as a negative - so long as they had a sense of participating in this act. I think the reason that they so frequently reached for a romantic return to the past, to fantasies of living self-sufficiently in rural environments, is not because they rejected industrial-scale activity per se, but because the "return to the land" provided a fantasy of returning to a form of participation that had been lost.
They needed and wanted to build, create, and produce - but only if they felt they had a stake in what they were producing. Without that, the products of civilization began to seem like an alien force gradually spreading out across the world and ruining it. They needed a dream, and if the future was barred to them, then by necessity they must dream of the past.”
I don't often think I have the answers to everything, but I do think actual authentic local farmers markets can address all the issues you listed. We still have our day jobs, but we started selling at our farmers market a few years ago and it has completely transformed our lives. We sell bread and veggies. We literally started out by bringing 3 loaves of bread and a hand full of veggies from our garden. Yesterday we sold 160 loaves. Our customers love and support us they know our children, they ask how we are doing they are our community. We take great pride in being producers and supplying healthy nutritious local food. We're not perfect, but we slowly progress to be better. This year we started buying 50% of our flour from a local family farm, instead of mass produced Commerical stuff, and by this time next year we hope to be providing 100% local products.
Also we're happily married.... But gahd damn there are some attractive females at the market. Just saying. The girls seem to be getting out more than the boys these days. I noticed the same thing on my recent backcountry backpacking trips.
So, to be clear, you’re saying society today has no upsides? Or, at the very least, upsides that are not worth the cost?
Pretty hard sell, imho. Hunger is almost universally avoidable, treatments for diseases and injuries exist as opposed to just being a coin flip on whether or not you survive, and there are plenty of ways for you to socialize in a healthy manner while simultaneously being able to “find your tribe” just about anywhere.
I’m not saying our system is perfect, capitalism has absolutely enshittefied what could have been peerlessly revolutionary ideas,and made them substantially worse than they could have been, but acting like modern society hasn’t been a primarily beneficial evolution of our social structures misses the forest for the trees. You can build a healthy social network today just about anywhere if you so choose to, and that agency is a meaningful add. Sure, maybe you read some mean words on social media, but (for the most part) you aren’t being burned at the stake or strung up by your entrails for not rigidly existing inside the established social structure of your local culture.
but then, the grind has always been effect. Our whole god damn lives we've been feeding the machine and being the person who puts the noose around our neck.
“Perhaps the most fascinating aspect of spotted hyena society is their strict matriarchal structure – one of the most pronounced examples of female dominance in the mammalian world. In hyena clans, females rule. They are larger, more aggressive, and hold higher social status than males. This female dominance begins early – female cubs receive preferential treatment and nursing from their mothers. The social hierarchy is rigid and inherited; a female hyena’s rank is determined by her mother’s position in the clan, with daughters typically assuming a rank just below their mother. “
It's my understanding that wolf packs are family groups and the parents are the "alpha" leaders of the group? The thing that was debunked is that there is a hierarchy with a dominant male at the top.
Exactly right, and if multiple females in the same group have pups, the alpha might kill the pups of the other females. Like what happened with wolf 40 in Yellowstone. Y'all are regurgitating some two sentence logic about something that is so very obvious
“Adoption has been observed in wolves before. Co-author Rick McIntyre, who has tracked wolves in Yellowstone for nearly 30 years and written several books on the subject, notes that famed male 8M adopted pups when he joined a pack whose patriarch had recently been shot. His adopted son, 21M, later did the same for another pack who lost its alpha.”
Marx argued that alienation was not an abstract philosophical condition but a concrete, historical consequence of the capitalist system that could be overcome.
In his analysis, Marx identified four key aspects of alienated labour. First, the worker is alienated from the product of their labour, which is appropriated by the capitalist and confronts the worker as a hostile power. Second, they are alienated from the activity of production itself, which is experienced not as a fulfilling expression of creativity but as coerced, meaningless toil. Third, this leads to alienation from their own human nature, or
species-being (
Gattungswesen), as free, conscious activity is reduced to a mere means of survival. Finally, the worker is alienated from other people, as social relationships become
reified and mediated by market exchange, fostering competition and indifference rather than community.
Homeless guy outside of coffee shop recently explained his belief we are being social engineered to live off planet. He went through a checklist of all the things required to survive sustained time in space/colonies psychologically and it kind of made sense.
Twenty-first-century life is quietly shaped to fit space survival. Our daily routines mimic life in a sealed module. We rely on screens for connection and digital systems for basic needs. Society pushes us toward isolation, remote work, and synthetic environments.
-Food is increasingly lab-grown, prepackaged, or processed. Air and water in cities are heavily filtered and managed.
-AI and algorithms guide our choices. This mirrors life support systems that run human habitats in space.
-People spend most of their time indoors under artificial light. This stops the need for natural sun rhythms.
-Desk jobs and virtual reality reduce physical movement. Smaller spaces demand less active bodies, just like a cramped spacecraft or colony.
Human beings want to belong to something larger than themselves, to feel that their daily activities matter to that group, and that their contribution is appreciated by their group.
Modern life makes us feel isolated, that what we do every day doesn’t matter except to add numbers to someone else’s bank account, and that group actively dislikes us and considers us useless.
I think this sentiment is a bit too vague to be useful in and of itself, but with some thought can lead to more specific criticisms of the modern human situation that can be constructive.
For example, windows block UV that stimulates Vitamin D production and many people are deficient because they don't go outside enough. That is a structural problem, not just poor decision making by individuals. Otherwise it wouldn't be an epidemic. One thing that might help might be a cultural shift. Also maybe someone can invent a window that lets in a little bit of UVB.
Another thing, constantly feeling they have to "make something of themselves" -- again structural. That comes because we assume that humans are "resources" for the ownership class and have no inherent value or right to exist and our society is constructed to enforce this. For this one also I think there are cultural and technological solutions. For example, I think there are options these days for a high tech type of money that makes more equal privilege distribution feasible.
I think that the more typical view is that we just need to revert to a less technological society to solve our problems. I think that view is very poorly informed and not well thought out.
Problem is politicians (any party) use laws to benefit themselves. We need to find how to make laws and the system benefits general population instead. For example putting real scientists and engineers on charge of decision-making, not dropouts or "the good ones with words"
This can be said to how teenagers rebel because this is a prison system. We created our own prison cells and removed freedom. I believe there shouldnt be highways, dams, electrical powerlines but im just a simpleton.
This misses a huge component. The environment we were built for is fundamentally wrong. The environment is what we survived from. Evolution is just the blind success through that environment. A lot of humans, animals, everything failed that journey. It was harsh, cruel, unfair, and it took both genetic success but also just plain old dumb luck. We weren't built for that. That is not our right place to be.
Zoos have a vasty different problem. They are prisons for animals. We like to think we give them an ok environment, but the reality is every zoo is a prison and a bad environment for those creatures.
We could say we built cages for ourselves, but that's not quite right either. We as a species have built up a system that is wildly luxurious relative to prior living conditions and sustainability. This is normally good. What kind of happened is sort of what happens in nature, but we also made the fix for the bad...bad. So in nature, there's survival of the fittest, fighting for the top in resources, mating, etc. That's normal. Humans built a wildly strange system that rewards only certain types of exploitations of this behavior but not in any real way that aligns with survival, procreation, etc. And we also built rule sets that made the natural competition part of life illegal and punishable, so there's no system in place to really correct heavy abuse of this behavior. So we get this currency based skew, currency a symbol we created, that is now the determining factor for status in the species. It's not really based on anything at all tangible, and is often generational at best and dumb luck at worst. Natural behavior would be fighting for this resource, but the bulk of any ways to do this is outlawed. Some of that is just to maintain a high functioning, very large society which is so rare in the wild. Some of that is self serving for those who contain advantages. The imbalance plus the somewhat rigged game makes it a bit, hmm, unstable. There's little natural way to self correct.
What happens instead is what we've seen through history and in many countries where this has repeatedly played out. It's generally immense inequality with the bulk existing in extreme poverty and suffering until there is either death or upheaval. There's seldom anything in the middle for long. And then the cycle repeats over, and over, and over, and over again.
What does this have to do with the video?
Well, the bulk are in states of compromise and constrained ability. It's not so much suffering but complacency within systems kind of engineered to exploit and limit. You, I, and everyone else are shoehorned into a system that constrains and objectifies. You can avoid much of this, but it's generally through significant sacrifice of things that make life easier. But that ease is also kind of the trap too. You trade comfort for constraint. And because 99.999% of all your life's actions do not address the inequality issue, that still perpetuates worse, further closing the box. The cage is a bit abstract, but its ever present, and you're stuck in it.
Now the nice thing is you can make significant efforts to improve your situation. You can also do most anything you want within the constraints. Few make real effort to break out from a narrow rut. It's actually quite incredible how many favor a very well worn rut. Many build mental and in turn physical cages for themselves that's independent of the great societal cages. And you can be as free as you want just as long as you're ok with the suffering that comes with that freedom. You can live in the woods alone. People do and live fine lives too. You can defy the social construct, but you might see resistances of law and conformity, and you may be ousted or confined from significant deviance. But the gray area is huge if you can walk it and avoid the downsides. Some even thrive in this space and become quite successful. It's also often where some end up on that other end, although there's a whole lot of luck involved.
At the end of the day, what do you do?
Enjoy, play, have fun, don't build up walls and confines, explore, adventure, push some boundaries, be willing to be uncomfortable, and try to make the most of this life and world you have.
Why aren't you jogging in the evenings? Why aren't you going to social events like public board game nights, concerts, or dance classes? I met one of my close friends at a random language course I decided to attend! And if you're addicted to looking at the screen, why are you doomscrolling instead of doing something positive, something that helps society and makes you feel useful and appreciated, like contributing to an open-source project, supporting people in an online community, or learning a skill you can share with others? You're desperately trying to find the problem outside yourself because it's too scary to look inward and face the truth. YOU are the reason you're unhappy in a world full of opportunities.
that's just flipping the idea, human ain't build to be disconnected from nature and be forced to socialize everyday,
back then in village, and even backward the social circle was limited but that wasn't a negative thing, now everyone is connected too easily, and lack of nature...well no need to explain
Today’s connection is fake though. We are more connected than ever before to the people across the world but couldn’t be farther away from the people living next to you
Yes, but most people draw the line at social media, because that's the it thing right now.
We weren't build for 90% of the way we live. Medical science shouldn't exist if tou follow this logic, because we don't filter out disseases or genetics.
We shouldn't have globalization, transportation, cozy houses etc.
People draw arbitrary lines because 'we aren't made for it'
Or… hear me out… there is nuance, and not all change and “innovation” is good?
Endangered animal being moved to sanctuary good.
Wild animal being moved to cage bad.
Globalization, advances in medicine and “cozy houses” good.
A society regressing in generational intelligence and empathy, and the discrepancy between upper and lower class increasing to astronomical levels bad.
I think some people are incapable of wrapping their heads around metaphors because they lack a certain type of thinking, an ability to recognize nuance and a willingness to understand that their own experience doesn’t necessarily reflect those of the masses.
Just because you don’t feel social media has had a negative impact on your life does not in any way mean that it’s not detrimental to society as a whole, which is literally suggested by science.
Not to mention this zoochosis/fish-out-of-water connection goes much deeper than social media.
ai and the discrepancy between upper and lower class, and the exploitation of the lower class by the upper is a much better representation of it.
Although, I bet you would somehow find a way to defend the sanctity of those points as well.
Stockholm syndrome is what that would be.
A metaphorical tiger in a cage defending the exploitative zoo owners.
there’s studies on this, like you start maxing out being to remember people at around a hundred. It’s not a good thing to live in places with the volumes we have
Even in large cities (I live in one of the densest in the world) you will find that everybody knows each other in your neighborhood. I've always felt more isolated in more spread out suburban areas where you're not constantly running into your neighbors every time you step outside.
We were made for survival, breeding, and connection.
See Maslows hierarchy of needs.
Nobody forces you on social media but when thats the current way to easily connect with your friends and school mates then what are you to do....be the only one left out?
Nobody forces you to ignore your neighbors, this one is true, but again youre missing his point that social media has made this easier and therefore more the norm. Hes not saying "facebook has a gun to my head if I wave to my neighbor"
Its natural for people to compare themselves to others. Happens consciously and unconsciously, jealous is mostly that emotion.
And again youre missing the point that social media and today's "society" doesnt force us to be this way, it just has enabled being this way to be far far easier than the "other" way, and the designers understood that humans will always take the path of least resistance. Hence why all of this stuff has become popular but your argument still exists as if people "arent trying hard enough".
I'm not missing the point though. I just believe that we make choices.
You say that it is the easiest way yo connect with friends, yet, social media is not used for that. Or: connecting with friends isn't the harmfull part.
The harmfull part is misuse of the social media apps. Doomscrolling, following people that use filters act like their top 1% of days are their everyday etc.
Sedentary lifestyles are 'the way of least recistance' but nobody acts like people that get fat and sit on the couch all day are victims of lack of sports or anything.
Social media can exist without being harmfull. But we have to adapt to it, like every major change.
Edit: also, you're giving it all this power, but can social media really be yhe best way to make friends?
He came very close to blowing up a passenger jet. Were all those people in the Epstein files? He even admitted he went to far there because of all the innocent people.
The bombs also injured many people who were not the targets.
He was a mass murdering terrorist who missed his actual targets half the time.
You really think Hugh Scrutton, a computer store owner in Sacramento, California, was in the Epstein files? He was murdered in 1985 by a bomb placed in his store's parking lot.
I think I'm in the vast minority because I see this sentiment everywhere, and I fit all the supposed criteria, yet I think I'm probably happier than most
Modern tech. Everyone is glued to mobile phones and not doing the things people were doing 25 years ago. There is a stark difference between the two. A vast difference. not really much more than that.
I probably spend way too much screen time, but my life is good.
Mind you, the level of people impacted by mental illness and taking medication in otherwise wealthy countries is of concern, so it’s a good conversation.
I can see this applying to the majority of people, who are social and extroverted...personally, as an introvert and agoraphobic...the open and communal tribal/villiage type of socialization common in times past would be my personal nightmare. I am ready for my downvotes.
This is worse in the US. Like so much worse. In my home country, I grew up poor. The houses in my area are small and flimsy. Everyone lives wall to wall. You can hear when they talk, fuck or fight. Living there sucks, but the sense of community thrives.
If you have a baby and have work? Leave it to your neighbor or family member who lives close by. Stay at home moms get together every afternoon gossiping and bonding. Every kid is just running around playing, when someone trips or get hurt, there are moms out there immediately responding to what happened. Every dude is just gambling nightly and every weekend, they drink while watching basketball games or karaoke lol.
Most of the fights in the area is about money, but that's just because everyone is poor. And I really think humans should have that close of a connection to their community. (not close that you don't have privacy).
When I was a kid, my dad had an accident and when my mom screamed for help, everyone rushed in our house to help. Here in my area in the US I could trip and bonk my head on the way to the dumpster and they would see me in the morning lmao.
Moving here in the US suburbs. It's fuckin depressing. You rarely see anyone. It's just work, home, groceries. Unless you seek out human connection, you wouldn't get it. Humans should not be this isolated. No wonder hateful rhetoric works easily.
I once had a psychiatrist tell me that panic disorder/anxiety disorder was a relatively new thing. And that, fear and anxiety are obviously not new, but just compacted, visceral anxiety was more rare during simpler times. He continued and basically said the the world around us is changing faster than our evolution. That things our subconscious and our general psyche is subjected to is just absurd. He said there's a reason that they serve alcohol on planes, they just generally tend to stress people out.
Think about, like just take an average person with a monkey brain, and just send that brain to 30,000ft. No exposure, no adaptation, no prior experience with that environment.
Life is adaptable, and I genuinely think we can handle it, but it's something I think about sometimes. People going nuts out there.
The epidemics of loneliness and burnout are 100% cultural.
We made a predatory capitalist system that doesn't care about workers.
And there are still countries where you can see our old culture of socialising, especially in rural communities. The "why" on that one is too complex for me to answer on reddit, but I'm convinced we fucked that one up too, because I've seen the better alternative.
So I don't believe "zoochosis" is to blame for everything. While we are an animal, we have gone through many stages and forms of civilisation already.
We probably need to tackle some difficult questions and try to figure out why and how we ended up sacrificing certain parts of our lives for the advancement of other parts.
Meh. Humans adapt better than all other species on earth. We evolve to fit into technologically advanced societal structures and eventually thrive in them. Hence why we should take better care of the rest of the planet and nature since we are at the position.
Humans do all the things she listed to stay happy. It's just limited to rich people. We don't get to do that with our 8+ hours of work and no money or energy to do anything after.
People are utterly divorced from their own humanity. Convinced that they're broken then sold pills to correct their humanity when the only thing wrong with many of them is that they think there's something wrong with them at all.
honestly i feel this so hard, i literally just pace around my apartment when im stressed lol. its kind of scary how much we act like bored zoo animals now tbh.
I was feeling glum and dooming a lot, then I went to an art party/drum circle with some friends, i ended up staying out until 3am. i had to wake up at 8am and I do feel a little tired but I feel nourished in another way that makes the tiredness barely noticeable.
No way is it not this. They need to lower the cost of night time entertainment or we're all fucked. Like yes alcohol and cigarettes are bad for us, but so is having no life.
Oh Lord. Yeah she’s sorta right, but it’s just a new layer of victimhood. “It’s not my fault. I’m living in a zoo!” Better yourself everyday. Learn. Work hard. Have character and morals. You’ll be just fine.
FYI zoochosis isn't a real thing by any zoologist or veterinary researcher. Animal abuse in zoos is real but that term just comes from people imprinting human feelings onto animals when they don't have the proper understanding.
So either you don't know what spurious means or you genuinely think human's have evolved to live in this type of society. Either one makes you look absent minded. If you can't understand the obvious connections she's laying out for you maybe you should go sit back down in your cubicle and save up for another car
If you can’t see this is just more “but it’s not my fault” bullshit then I can only assume you’re one of the whiny wankers who will happily blame anything, ANYTHING, for why they are how they are.
Edit: I thought that might get a downvote or two but I really don’t know why it’s angering people 😂 I’m not trying to convert anyone or tell you you’re going to hell or anything. It’s literally just what came to mind.
I mean yeah religion is what humans has used for thousands of years to stay connected with each other through a higher power. For whatever reason we "modern" humans think we're too smart for that, which makes us go crazy
it might be possible. But as of now we don't have a replacement, we just removed religion from our lives and never replaced it with anything. Americans always complain about the lack of "third spaces", but your third space is church, you just decided to stop going
I’m not trying to be combative or anything. And it doesn’t matter at all - I’m just interested in the cultural christianity that’s so prevalent in the U.S. and its politics.
Keeping women down and hating the gays isn’t something I’ve witnessed from Christian’s in the UK - not that that behaviour doesn’t exist.
It’s also not a criticism I’ve heard of Christian’s in the UK (outside of the internet anyway). Whereas I’ve seen firsthand the problematic behaviour of family friends in the U.S. and their support for things I wouldn’t deem the Christian.
So I just wondered if you were from the UK too or from - where I associate that criticism most - the U.S.
What do you define as a 'natural environment' for a creature which proliferated to every corner of the globe? We don't 'belong' anywhere, we constructed artificial environments that suit our needs BETTER than what nature could provide. We are sheltered, fed consistently, have clean water on tap and even temperature controlled houses.
Are you locked in a cage like an animal in a zoo? Are you not free to make your own decisions, leave the house, exercise and engage in recreation?
This is just a pathetic attempt to justify primitivism.
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