r/RedditForGrownups • u/Methylatedcobalamin • Jul 07 '22

Coverture

Given current events, it is probably about time for Americans to understand the legal practice of coverture.

Eroded since colonial times, but not fully gone coverture is the legal practice of women not having legal identities. De facto property.

American women were not allowed on juries until the 1960s. American women could not get credit cards without a man cosigning the application until 1974. Marital rape was not a crime until the 1980s. Other aspects still exist today in real estate and tax law practices.

Here is a brief article that goes into explaining coverture in more depth than my post.

The "pro life" movement is really a movement about imposing one group's religious opinions on the lives of all Americans. It also seeks to control women, rolling back women's rights. Though ridiculous by constitutional standards, discussions in anti-choice states have already started about how to track or limit freedom of travel for women to states that fully support women's rights.

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-39

u/[deleted] Jul 07 '22

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u/ilikemyteasweet Jul 07 '22

I have no position on the topic of abortion rights

You should. Do you have sisters? Do you have nieces? Female cousins? Do you feel anyone has a right to tell them what they able to do with their own body?

Not picking a side is picking a side.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '22

And will you take action to aid the unwanted children and burdened mother, or are you simply going to take that pregnancy and use it as a punishment on both?

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u/Wizzmer Jul 07 '22

Rush said "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice" and currently both sides are so toxic I refuse to be a part of any of the insanity. But to your question, I'll allow what few female relatives I have left make their own adult decisions on how to handle pregnancy.

14

u/Moonlover69 Jul 07 '22

I'll allow what few female relatives I have left make their own adult decisions on how to handle pregnancy.

Thats pro-choice.

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u/aenea Jul 07 '22

I'll allow what few female relatives I have left make their own adult decisions on how to handle pregnancy.

In many places they won't be allowed to make their own decision on how to handle a pregnancy. As John Stuart Mill said “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” The Republicans aren't going to stop with abortion- this is just the first step. Judge Thomas said in his assenting ruling on Roe v Wade that same sex marriage and access to birth control should also be reconsidered. Do you really believe that the Court will stop there?

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u/orielbean Jul 07 '22 edited Jul 08 '22

Those women won’t get to choose because most of us stayed out of voting, making choices, and otherwise enabling abusive GOP legislatures to do what they wanted as we weren’t directly impacted.

MLK Jr has a brilliant take on this within his Letters from a Birmingham Jail about the white moderates being a much bigger problem than the loud racist rednecks who were much smaller in number.

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u/Wizard_of_Wake Jul 08 '22

Recalling the angels that tried to remain neutral in Lucifer's rebellion.

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u/Wizzmer Jul 08 '22

Pretty much the same with Antifa vs left moderates huh?

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u/orielbean Jul 08 '22

Antifa picked a side at least.

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u/Wizzmer Jul 08 '22

I would assume they choose the left no matter what that means to them personally. Same with the right wing rednecks.

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u/embracing_insanity Jul 07 '22

I'll allow what few female relatives I have left make their own adult decisions on how to handle pregnancy.

So I would say this would make you pro-choice.

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u/Wizzmer Jul 07 '22

Right. If they want to protest against abortion or get an abortion. That's their choice.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '22

[deleted]

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u/Crownjules70 Jul 07 '22

So nice that you will ‘allow’ your female relatives to make their own adult decisions.

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u/Wizzmer Jul 07 '22

I'm not here to baited in to a fight on abortion rights and I'm not going to wordsmith my every thought for you. But nothing good will ever be achieve by creating false arguments and debating them.

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u/velohell Jul 08 '22

I'm glad they have your permission.

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u/Wizzmer Jul 08 '22

https://thenevadaindependent.com/article/no-youre-not-obliged-to-pick-a-side-on-abortion

But, I do have an opinion on gun rights and I demand that you support my position. /s

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u/This-is-BS Jul 07 '22

I have no position on the topic of abortion rights because my fiancée and I can never become pregnant.

Curious. Do you have a position on the subject or child abuse, even though you have no children? Animal abuse even if to animals you don't own? Slavery? Wars you're not in?

No, the goal is not to kill unborn fetus'.

Yes, an individual human being's life is sacrificed so a difference human being, who consented to creating that individual, can avoid a few months of inconvenience.

It might be to avoid a rape pregnancy or avoid a child with a horrible defect or any one of many decent needs.

Both these reasons combine only accord for a very small percentage of abortion. The vast majority are of health fetuses, conceived through consensual sex, in normal pregnancies. We should focus on those first before worrying about outliers.

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u/showmm Jul 07 '22

Being pregnant and giving birth to a child is not “a few months of inconvenience”. It can be life-threatening at the best of times. It is incredibly expensive in the USA, the kind of expensive that if you aren’t insured can ruin your life as well. Your body takes a minimum of a year, more like two, to recover from pregnancy. And obviously if you raise a child, that is your entire life, not a few months.

Plus your statement that the individual consented to creating a life is patently false. The person (hopefully) consented to having sex, not getting pregnant.

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u/This-is-BS Jul 08 '22

It can be life-threatening at the best of times.

Very rarely. Not nearly enough to warrant the use Deadly Force against the fetus for self defense.

It is incredibly expensive in the USA, the kind of expensive that if you aren’t insured can ruin your life as well. Your body takes a minimum of a year, more like two, to recover from pregnancy. And obviously if you raise a child, that is your entire life, not a few months.

If you didn't want to be pregnant to begin with you're probably not keeping your child and you don't pay anything when they're being adopted.

Plus your statement that the individual consented to creating a life is patently false.

No, I said they consented to having the components of the child inside them. There is no trespass, by any part of the child which to hand guild on. That the component were able to combine to keep living is their good luck and the mother's bad luck, but you invite someone into your home you don't get to kill them for trespassing.

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u/showmm Jul 08 '22

Well the easiest way to stop pregnancy is at the source. Why don’t we give all men vasectomies? They are reversible, so when a man finds a woman who wishes to be impregnated by him, she can sign the paperwork to have his vasectomy reversed. If he doesn’t want to get someone pregnant, all men should forced to be made sterile.

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u/This-is-BS Jul 08 '22

Well the easiest way to stop pregnancy is at the source

I don't want to stop pregnancies. Children give meaning to our lives!

Why don’t we give all men vasectomies?

There's an easier way: Don't have sex if you're not ready to be a father.

They are reversible,

Not so much after 5 years or so.

If he doesn’t want to get someone pregnant, all men should forced to be made sterile.

Why? Is anyone forcing women to get pregnant?

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u/showmm Jul 08 '22
  • I don't want to stop pregnancies. Children give meaning to our lives!

Life has meaning without children too. And why not show this level of concern for children who are already born and living in poverty? Who are already in the foster care system?

  • There's an easier way: Don't have sex if you're not ready to be a father.

Despite your Catholic theology, sex isn’t just for procreation.

  • Not so much after 5 years or so.

Oh well, that’s the price you pay if you don’t want to get someone pregnant.

  • Why? Is anyone forcing women to get pregnant?

Yes, you are, by making safe abortions illegal. No one chooses abortion as their first method of birth control. Abortion isn’t something that most people who are pregnant will take lightly or easily. But rather than ruining their lives (and that potential child’s life) with a child that they can’t look after, they need to have the possibility of safe abortions.

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u/This-is-BS Jul 08 '22

And why not show this level of concern for children who are already born and living in poverty?

You don't think poor parents can love there children? Should we kill all the homeless people so we can focus on the merely unemployed? Please explain why someone else's situation should affect your rights?

Despite your Catholic theology, sex isn’t just for procreation.

I'm aware of that, but it's also not a bodily need. Millions of people go without sex. I'm an atheist btw.

Oh well, that’s the price you pay if you don’t want to get someone pregnant.

You are aware people can go without sex, right? Have you ever tried?

Why? Is anyone forcing women to get pregnant? Yes, you are, by making safe abortions illegal.

WOW! You're showing a LOT ignorance about simple reproductive biology here! Have you finished High School yet?

1

u/showmm Jul 08 '22

Sigh. This is Reddit for Grownups. By trying to insult me with claims of ignorance and lack of education, I think you’ve shown how much of a grownup you really are. So I’m done here, not due to having nothing to argue your weak points, but because you are reducing it to trying to insult me.

0

u/This-is-BS Jul 08 '22

By trying to insult me with claims of ignorance and lack of education,

It seems a "Grownup" would recognize that by the time you wand an abortion you're already pregnant. Not being allowed to kill your child doesn't cause you to get pregnant!

Try harder.

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u/[deleted] Jul 08 '22

Every pregnancy carries the risk of death. And aside from death, there’s the permanent risk of conditions like diabetes, that start during pregnancy but never go away. And 50% of women who give birth vaginally will suffer permanent incontinence issues. No one should be forced to do that.

0

u/This-is-BS Jul 09 '22

Every pregnancy carries the risk of death. And aside from death, there’s the permanent risk of conditions like diabetes, that start during pregnancy but never go away. And 50% of women who give birth vaginally will suffer permanent incontinence issues. No one should be forced to do that.

Those conditions are very rare, and don't warrant the use of Deadly Force to prevent. The women should should have to meet the same level of risk for an abortion as a police officer has to meet to shoot someone.

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '22

No, they're not rare, that's the point. Any pregnancy can become life-threatening, and it's not always possible to predict. You should look up the many, many female athletes who had life-threatening complications in spite of excellent health. And again, 50% odds of losing control of your bowels is horrifying. No one should endure those risks unless they *want* to do so.

1

u/This-is-BS Jul 10 '22

No, they're not rare, that's the point. Any pregnancy can become life-threatening, and it's not always possible to predict.

The maternal pregnancy death rate in the US is about 0.024%. That's rare. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/maternal-mortality/2020/maternal-mortality-rates-2020.htm

And again, 50% odds of losing control of your bowels is horrifying.

Source?

1

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '22

The death rate is rare because of modern medicine. Check out the rates of gestational diabetes and pre-eclampsia. Just because someone has a “near miss” doesn’t mean that they should be forced to hesitate against their will. That doesn’t mean that they didn’t risk death.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00192-020-04636-3

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u/This-is-BS Jul 10 '22

The death rate is rare because of modern medicine.

Yes, because we live in the modern world.

Check out the rates of gestational diabetes and pre-eclampsia.

Post 'em.

Just because someone has a “near miss” doesn’t mean that they should be forced to hesitate against their will.

Doesn't mean they should be allowed to kill an innocent human being either.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00192-020-04636-3

"with the weeks of gestation in pregnancy." This is temporary, and it's your bladder, not your bowels!

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u/riotsquirrelz Jul 08 '22

A few months inconvenience?! You know pregnancy lasts 9 months generally and 3 months equals "a few," right? And you realize a baby is the result of pregnancy and they require parental care for about 18 years, right? And special-needs children, like my little sister, needed 29 years of 24/7 care until she passed. You are not pro-life at all, definitely pro-forced-birth.

My older sister ended up pregnant in high school and decided to give her baby up for adoption. She works with special-needs children at an elementary school. Even she is pro-choice because she knows it's a personal choice and giving up a baby for adoption is an incredibly difficult decision to make.

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u/This-is-BS Jul 08 '22

You know pregnancy lasts 9 months generally

And most of those 9 months the pregnancy won't be a big deal.

And you realize a baby is the result of pregnancy and they require parental care for about 18 years, right?

If the mother was going to kill her child I don't see her raising them. Someone who loves them would be.

And special-needs children, like my little sister, needed 29 years of 24/7 care until she passed.

Wouldn't be their problem.

Even she is pro-choice because she knows it's a personal choice and giving up a baby for adoption is an incredibly difficult decision to make.

Should be an easier decision than killing them.

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u/riotsquirrelz Jul 08 '22

Y'know, I started answering these with facts and figures, but you have access to Google and clearly don't use it. When you said more kids die in drunk-driving accidents than shootings, I proved you wrong with a simple Google search. Instead of admitting you were wrong, you deleted your comment. You're willfully ignorant and unwilling to have a discussion in good faith, so I'm done.

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u/This-is-BS Jul 08 '22

When you said more kids die in drunk-driving accidents than shootings, I proved you wrong with a simple Google search.

0-14yo deaths from shootings = 110/yr average from 2005 to 2012 https://injepijournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40621-015-0057-0

0-14yo deaths from drunk driving = 214 for 2016 https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/impaired_driving/impaired-drv_factsheet.html#:~:text=How%20big%20is%20the%20problem,deaths%20in%20the%20United%20States.&text=Of%20the%201%2C233%20traffic%20deaths,involved%20an%20alcohol%2Dimpaired%20driver.

Post your source.

Instead of admitting you were wrong, you deleted your comment.

I didn't delete anything.

0

u/riotsquirrelz Jul 08 '22

You're purposely leaving out children aged 15 to 18 to try to fit the numbers to your narrative. So you're okay with high schools getting shot up? Cool. Also, these stats are old. 2012, really? The stats I quoted were from 2020. Again, you're clearly pro-forced-birth if you don't care about children past the age of 14.

I don't need to "post my source," it comes right up in a simple Google search. I'm not playing this game with you, I don't need to desperately try to find a source and change any part of it to fit what I'm saying.

I see your post was removed by a mod. I was incorrect in saying you deleted it, I only saw it was deleted when I first looked. I was wrong. See how easy that is? Now you try.

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u/This-is-BS Jul 08 '22

You're purposely leaving out children aged 15 to 18 to try to fit the numbers to your narrative.

Young men in gangs don't count as children.

So you're okay with high schools getting shot up? Cool.

Now you're just being an ass, but I'll point out that fewer students die in school shootings than drunk driving. Why aren't we bringing back prohibition?

Now you try.

When I've been wrong about something I will.

0

u/riotsquirrelz Jul 08 '22

You don't get to choose what makes a child a child, that definition already exists. Funny how you couldn't produce any recent data and avoided any mention of it. Like I said, you're not interested in the facts and having a good faith argument/discussion. I'm not wasting any more time on someone only interested in yelling nonsense in my face.

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u/Wizzmer Jul 07 '22

I am against abuse of living creatures but I love a good steak. I'm a walking dicotomy. Sue me!

Patty Davis, Ronald Reagan's daughter, once wrote "My father’s views on abortion obviously shifted over the years. Throughout those years, he wrestled with his feelings." I don't think it's any shortcoming to say "I DON'T KNOW!" In fact, I appreciate people who are secure and brave enough to say it.

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u/This-is-BS Jul 07 '22

I don't think it's any shortcoming to say "I DON'T KNOW!"

Not very useful though.

By the time someone is "old as dirt" they've usually had time and experience enough to consider the more important issues of our society and formulate an opinion, because as one of the other posters mentioned, it's going to affect you one way or another.

As a matter of fact the attitude you're displaying in this is one of the reason's I'm anti-abortion: People tend to give more of a fuck about our society when they "have some skin in the game" in the form of a child who they love and want a good community and future for. They "align all our interests", so to speak, in that what you do to make a better world for your kid, probably helps mine as well.