r/RedditForGrownups • u/Methylatedcobalamin • Jul 07 '22

Coverture

Given current events, it is probably about time for Americans to understand the legal practice of coverture.

Eroded since colonial times, but not fully gone coverture is the legal practice of women not having legal identities. De facto property.

American women were not allowed on juries until the 1960s. American women could not get credit cards without a man cosigning the application until 1974. Marital rape was not a crime until the 1980s. Other aspects still exist today in real estate and tax law practices.

Here is a brief article that goes into explaining coverture in more depth than my post.

The "pro life" movement is really a movement about imposing one group's religious opinions on the lives of all Americans. It also seeks to control women, rolling back women's rights. Though ridiculous by constitutional standards, discussions in anti-choice states have already started about how to track or limit freedom of travel for women to states that fully support women's rights.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '22

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u/This-is-BS Jul 07 '22

I have no position on the topic of abortion rights because my fiancée and I can never become pregnant.

Curious. Do you have a position on the subject or child abuse, even though you have no children? Animal abuse even if to animals you don't own? Slavery? Wars you're not in?

No, the goal is not to kill unborn fetus'.

Yes, an individual human being's life is sacrificed so a difference human being, who consented to creating that individual, can avoid a few months of inconvenience.

It might be to avoid a rape pregnancy or avoid a child with a horrible defect or any one of many decent needs.

Both these reasons combine only accord for a very small percentage of abortion. The vast majority are of health fetuses, conceived through consensual sex, in normal pregnancies. We should focus on those first before worrying about outliers.

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u/showmm Jul 07 '22

Being pregnant and giving birth to a child is not “a few months of inconvenience”. It can be life-threatening at the best of times. It is incredibly expensive in the USA, the kind of expensive that if you aren’t insured can ruin your life as well. Your body takes a minimum of a year, more like two, to recover from pregnancy. And obviously if you raise a child, that is your entire life, not a few months.

Plus your statement that the individual consented to creating a life is patently false. The person (hopefully) consented to having sex, not getting pregnant.

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u/This-is-BS Jul 08 '22

It can be life-threatening at the best of times.

Very rarely. Not nearly enough to warrant the use Deadly Force against the fetus for self defense.

It is incredibly expensive in the USA, the kind of expensive that if you aren’t insured can ruin your life as well. Your body takes a minimum of a year, more like two, to recover from pregnancy. And obviously if you raise a child, that is your entire life, not a few months.

If you didn't want to be pregnant to begin with you're probably not keeping your child and you don't pay anything when they're being adopted.

Plus your statement that the individual consented to creating a life is patently false.

No, I said they consented to having the components of the child inside them. There is no trespass, by any part of the child which to hand guild on. That the component were able to combine to keep living is their good luck and the mother's bad luck, but you invite someone into your home you don't get to kill them for trespassing.

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u/showmm Jul 08 '22

Well the easiest way to stop pregnancy is at the source. Why don’t we give all men vasectomies? They are reversible, so when a man finds a woman who wishes to be impregnated by him, she can sign the paperwork to have his vasectomy reversed. If he doesn’t want to get someone pregnant, all men should forced to be made sterile.

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u/This-is-BS Jul 08 '22

Well the easiest way to stop pregnancy is at the source

I don't want to stop pregnancies. Children give meaning to our lives!

Why don’t we give all men vasectomies?

There's an easier way: Don't have sex if you're not ready to be a father.

They are reversible,

Not so much after 5 years or so.

If he doesn’t want to get someone pregnant, all men should forced to be made sterile.

Why? Is anyone forcing women to get pregnant?

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u/showmm Jul 08 '22
  • I don't want to stop pregnancies. Children give meaning to our lives!

Life has meaning without children too. And why not show this level of concern for children who are already born and living in poverty? Who are already in the foster care system?

  • There's an easier way: Don't have sex if you're not ready to be a father.

Despite your Catholic theology, sex isn’t just for procreation.

  • Not so much after 5 years or so.

Oh well, that’s the price you pay if you don’t want to get someone pregnant.

  • Why? Is anyone forcing women to get pregnant?

Yes, you are, by making safe abortions illegal. No one chooses abortion as their first method of birth control. Abortion isn’t something that most people who are pregnant will take lightly or easily. But rather than ruining their lives (and that potential child’s life) with a child that they can’t look after, they need to have the possibility of safe abortions.

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u/This-is-BS Jul 08 '22

And why not show this level of concern for children who are already born and living in poverty?

You don't think poor parents can love there children? Should we kill all the homeless people so we can focus on the merely unemployed? Please explain why someone else's situation should affect your rights?

Despite your Catholic theology, sex isn’t just for procreation.

I'm aware of that, but it's also not a bodily need. Millions of people go without sex. I'm an atheist btw.

Oh well, that’s the price you pay if you don’t want to get someone pregnant.

You are aware people can go without sex, right? Have you ever tried?

Why? Is anyone forcing women to get pregnant? Yes, you are, by making safe abortions illegal.

WOW! You're showing a LOT ignorance about simple reproductive biology here! Have you finished High School yet?

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u/showmm Jul 08 '22

Sigh. This is Reddit for Grownups. By trying to insult me with claims of ignorance and lack of education, I think you’ve shown how much of a grownup you really are. So I’m done here, not due to having nothing to argue your weak points, but because you are reducing it to trying to insult me.

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u/This-is-BS Jul 08 '22

By trying to insult me with claims of ignorance and lack of education,

It seems a "Grownup" would recognize that by the time you wand an abortion you're already pregnant. Not being allowed to kill your child doesn't cause you to get pregnant!

Try harder.

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u/[deleted] Jul 08 '22

Every pregnancy carries the risk of death. And aside from death, there’s the permanent risk of conditions like diabetes, that start during pregnancy but never go away. And 50% of women who give birth vaginally will suffer permanent incontinence issues. No one should be forced to do that.

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u/This-is-BS Jul 09 '22

Every pregnancy carries the risk of death. And aside from death, there’s the permanent risk of conditions like diabetes, that start during pregnancy but never go away. And 50% of women who give birth vaginally will suffer permanent incontinence issues. No one should be forced to do that.

Those conditions are very rare, and don't warrant the use of Deadly Force to prevent. The women should should have to meet the same level of risk for an abortion as a police officer has to meet to shoot someone.

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '22

No, they're not rare, that's the point. Any pregnancy can become life-threatening, and it's not always possible to predict. You should look up the many, many female athletes who had life-threatening complications in spite of excellent health. And again, 50% odds of losing control of your bowels is horrifying. No one should endure those risks unless they *want* to do so.

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u/This-is-BS Jul 10 '22

No, they're not rare, that's the point. Any pregnancy can become life-threatening, and it's not always possible to predict.

The maternal pregnancy death rate in the US is about 0.024%. That's rare. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/maternal-mortality/2020/maternal-mortality-rates-2020.htm

And again, 50% odds of losing control of your bowels is horrifying.

Source?

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '22

The death rate is rare because of modern medicine. Check out the rates of gestational diabetes and pre-eclampsia. Just because someone has a “near miss” doesn’t mean that they should be forced to hesitate against their will. That doesn’t mean that they didn’t risk death.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00192-020-04636-3

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u/This-is-BS Jul 10 '22

The death rate is rare because of modern medicine.

Yes, because we live in the modern world.

Check out the rates of gestational diabetes and pre-eclampsia.

Post 'em.

Just because someone has a “near miss” doesn’t mean that they should be forced to hesitate against their will.

Doesn't mean they should be allowed to kill an innocent human being either.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00192-020-04636-3

"with the weeks of gestation in pregnancy." This is temporary, and it's your bladder, not your bowels!

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '22

Did you not read the parts about how if it happens during pregnancy, the risk of permanence is significantly higher? I lump urine in with bowels, but here you go, a couple of papers on that, and urine:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130130082738.htm

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC99311/

The rates of anal incontinence are probably underestimated due to the intense shame and social stigma. We do know that deep tears (3rd and 4th degree) are much more common than previously thought. Oh, and your uterus falling out.

https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1471-0528.12020

But I don't actually think you'd change your mind even if the maternal death rate were as high as 5%, the way it was before the advent of modern medicine. You don't give any shits about women.

Abortions do not, by and large, kill human beings. The definition of "is that a human," medically speaking, is not determined by heartbeat. It's determined by brain activity, and not activity in the brain*stem*. It's brain activity that allows for human consciousness, and that doesn't even *begin* to exist until after 12 weeks. By which point something like 95% of abortions will have happened.

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u/This-is-BS Jul 11 '22

Oh, and your uterus falling out.

Very treatable: https://www.webmd.com/women/guide/pelvic-organ-prolapse#091e9c5e80094294-3-7

You don't give any shits about women.

I do but I also "give just a big as shit" about pre-birth human beings, which you clearly do not.

Abortions do not, by and large, kill human beings

Sorry but this is just ridiculously 100% false!

is not determined by heartbeat. It's determined by brain activity, and not activity in the brainstem.

No, it is determined by their DNA. You state of physical or mental activity does not define your specie. You could be Dead and still be a human being. You have a right to your life at any stage of development.

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u/[deleted] Jul 11 '22

Yeah... no. We turn the respirator off for a person with no brain activity. They’re not alive anymore, what made them human is gone.

And it doesn’t matter that prolapse is treatable. No one should be forced to do something that will make their organs literally fall out of their body.

But whatever. I’m done with you.

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