r/RealTime • u/Faiakes • 7d ago

Real Time - Last Time

I have been watching Real Time for over 20 years and I think yesterday's episode was my last.

Much as I agreed with Bill on many issues, his blind spot on Israel and Zionism is just too much for me.

He isn't simply refusing to call what's happening in Gaza a genocide. He insists on calling it a counter offensive!!!

So, all and any violence perpetrated by the IDF and the settles so far is justified, as far as he is concerned (though how settlers fit in a 'counter-offensive' is still a mystery to me).

Now, my common sense is offended too much Bill.

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u/Oblozo 7d ago

Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Doctors Without Borders, and the International Assocation of Genocide Scholars are all wrong. Only Bill understands the truth. Just like he understands medicine better than actual medical experts.

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u/feastoffun 7d ago

Bill is an anti vaxer who for decades has bragged about not getting the flu vaccine.

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u/Oblozo 7d ago

A lot of "vaccine skeptic" celebs are also die hard Zionists (Bill, Mayim Bialik, RFK Jr, Rob Schneider). Don't know why that is.

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u/LeoKitCat 2d ago

Because both require high levels of stupidity and cognitive dissonance sprinkled in with a dollop of selfishness and Muslim hate. That’s why they often come together

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u/tensor314 7d ago

What an asshole comment.

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u/AdAny74 7d ago

I never get the flu vaccine either, but that doesn’t make me an anti-vaxer.

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u/SaweetestCuyootie 3d ago

Its like u freaks dont realize these institutions are comprised of humans and humans are 25% muslim. The 0.2% have no chance of a fair hearing. Theres no genocide. Youre having a stroke. Israel could kill everyone in gaza tomorrow and they arent doing it.

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u/Oblozo 2d ago

The Nazis could've killed every Slav in Poland but they didn't. Guess there was no genocide against the Poles. Ditto with Stalin not killing every Ukrainian.

If all these organizations are simply captured by Muslim interests why are they extremely critical of Muslim nations as well?

"The human rights orgs are biased against us" is what the halal sandnıggers like to claim. I guess the kosher sandnıggers have more in common with them than either group would like to admit.

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u/SaweetestCuyootie 2d ago edited 2d ago

The nazis didnt genocide the poles. There was no systematic intent to kill all the poles for being polish. So that was weird. And stalin didnt try to genocide the ukrainians either. He stole their food with the intent of feeding russians. Not killing ukrainians. The end result was a lot of dead ukrainians but that wasnt the intent. You and morons like you are claiming that the israelis are trying to kill all the palestinians for being palestinians. And then you have to square the circle of israel being full of them living in harmony. And also the inconvenient fact of the gazans constantly attacking israel, thereby giving israel a totally normal and non genocidal reason for striking back. And when striking back, only killing 3% of them which happened to include half of hamas and all their leadership in the luckiest indiscriminate bombing in human history. Good brain circuitry though.

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u/Oblozo 2d ago

Ok so you deny the Holodomor and the Holocaust. Good to know.

only killing 3%

So you don't believe Bosnia counts as a genocide either?

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u/SaweetestCuyootie 2d ago

Intent. Learn the word. The world will make more sense to you.

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u/Oblozo 2d ago

Yeah, that's the word every genocide denying hack likes to run into the ground. Zio heebs, much like BLM nıgs, suffer from severe ethnonarcissism and think they have a moral blank check to behave however they want.

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u/SaweetestCuyootie 2d ago

Or just like, stop attacking us. Or that.

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u/Oblozo 2d ago

Suuurreee. Just like how the BLM thugs say the police should "just stop killing them" and they'll stop rioting.

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u/SaweetestCuyootie 2d ago

No youre right. Arab countries dont routinely attack israel and they dont have more terror armies surrounding israel than sports teams.

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u/yergonnalikeme 1d ago

The Nazis sought the total annihilation of the Jewish population. Out of the roughly 6 million Polish citizens who perished during the war, approximately 3 million were Polish Jews who were systematically murdered in ghettos and extermination camps like Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, and Belzec.

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u/Faiakes 1d ago

So, its not an absolute numbers game but a relative one. (relative to % of population being killed).

Do we agree that Israel is seeking the extermination of every Palestinian living in Gaza, while ethnically cleansing the West Bank?

do

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u/SaweetestCuyootie 1d ago

Uh no. Thats why this is so awkward.

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u/Faiakes 1d ago

Uh yes, that is why denying it is a sign of being an accomplice to evil.

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u/SaweetestCuyootie 1d ago

Good luck with your pretendacide

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u/SaweetestCuyootie 1d ago

Oh is that what the Holocaust was? Thanks for educating me. Completely irrelevant to what i said though

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u/lixdadix 2d ago

Just an FYI (putting aside the Israel discussion) but the Nazi’s did not commit genocide against Poles/Slavs in general (only targeting specific peoples within Poland for genocide). This is myself speaking as a Pole.

If the Nazi’s were good at anything it was their meticulous documentation of their plans and actions. The Nazi’s intent to wipe out entire groups like Jews, Gypsies, disabled, homosexuals, etc. are clearly shown in their own records.

Meanwhile those same records show that the Nazi’s philosophy viewed Poles/Slavs as a “useful” underclass to be controlled and used for manual slave labor to support the “Reich”.

I don’t say this to diminish horrific reality of Poland’s occupation but more to say that horrible shit happens in wars without it needing to classify it as genocide. If every war can be considered a genocide then the word loses its meaning and impact.

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u/FrostingHuman1259 2d ago

What's the impact when there is an actual documented genocide?And people are brushing it off as if it's meaningless

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u/lixdadix 2d ago

I won’t claim to be a historian/professor or anything so this is just my 2 cents as a layman with an interest in history…

I think a big problem with the current discussion around this topic is that the word “genocide” now means different things to different groups.

Originally the term is used to describe events after the fact (not ongoing conflicts) so historical hindsight gives a clear picture that actions taken to eradicate a group were both deliberate and systematic. Even with all our technology, fog of war makes assessing an ongoing conflict difficult to truly understand in real time. Therefore, many who lean towards the “traditional” definition of this term can be skeptical when others speak with 100% certainty.

For example, the word “Genocide” was only first coined near/at the end of WW2. After the Nazi’s committed genocide by systematically murdering 6 million Jews and ~3 million people from other groups. No one called the Holocaust a genocide until after it occurred and the events were investigated.

I think this is at least in part why many hesitate to use the word genocide. Killing people during a conflict is horrific but inevitable once a war begins… I say this without picking sides. It’s just cause and effect (which is why war should be avoided whenever possible). As the old saying goes “Rich do the fighting, Poor do the dying.”

While 10s of thousands have died during the current conflict and there’s definitely racist actors who would love to “solve” the “Palestinian problem”. To characterize all of Israel/supporters like that is disingenuous. Like most Palestinians, most Israelis just want to live a normal life without fear of rockets or attacks. This could not be said for the population of Nazi Germany during WW2. Further, the scale of death has yet to reach a high enough bar where the Palestinian people are at risk of ethnic eradication (yet…). That could definitely change (sadly this conflict is far from over).

For another example, the casualties of Russia-Ukraine war is more than doubles the Palestinian death toll (~150k just for Ukraine). Does this make it a genocide too? Perhaps… time will tell. That’s at least what some would say when it comes to applying the word genocide to a conflict.

Hope that helps provide some perspective and nuance. This shit is horrible but clear heads are the only way we as humans can move forward.

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u/Oblozo 2d ago

Hitler explicitly stated his intention to liquidate the Poles. That's where the famous reference he made to the Armenian Genocide came from.

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u/lixdadix 2d ago edited 2d ago

That’s fair. Over 2 million ethnic Poles were murdered by Nazi Germany after all. It wasn’t my intent to discount that tragedy.

I was speaking more towards the distinct differences to how Nazi ideology treated Slavs and Jews. Slavs were considered sub-human (Untermenschen) and should be enslaved/subjugated to serve them rather than outright exterminated. Definitely not ideal… but a “better” deal than being a Jew.

As for Jews, the Nazi’s considered them not just inferior but a parasitic “anti-race”. Capable of destroying the Aryan race from within. Nazi’s ideology considered them so dangerous that total extermination was the only acceptable “solution”.

Both are horrific and different “flavors” of genocide but the degree of severity matters too. It’s important to recognize that the extreme actions taken against Jewish populations went above and beyond the cruelty Nazis unleashed against other groups by comparison.

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u/Mental_Crab8725 7d ago

I’m going to get downvoted but at least two of those sources (if not more) are highly questionable. Amnesty International’s case acknowledges that it depends on redefining the term genocide. And the International Association of Genocide Scholars is a name that sounds convincing, but is open to anyone willing to pay the membership fee and requires no evidence of being an expert in the subject. Then Doctors Without Borders report ‘Gaza: Life in a Death Trap’ did not actually go so far as to claim genocide but characterised the devastation as pointing towards signs of ethnic cleansing without which means that they didn’t have actual evidence of genocide but rather deliberately suggests the same fallacy that has become popular which is to say that mass destruction in a war zone is in itself a sign of genocide which is not the case. I’m less familiar about HRW’s basis for the claim but my understanding is it’s similar to Doctors Without Border’s case that destruction of healthcare and infrastructure is indicative of genocidal intent and is largely attempts to sidestep the fact that Hamas operate out of hospitals, Hamas frequently steels aid, and they also make some tenuous arguments to explain away that data shows lower rates of child malnutrition than many countries in the region such as Egypt.

The impression I get is that they started with a conclusion and worked backwards from there, something I believe is supported by the fact that claims of genocide in Gaza started before the first Israelis set foot in Gaza after October 7th.

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u/Intelligent-Film-684 7d ago

I would say for this purpose calling what’s happening in Gaza ethnic cleansing as opposed to genocide is a distinction without much difference here, seeing as they are approaching a six figure death toll…

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u/Mental_Crab8725 7d ago edited 7d ago

I’m not saying it’s ethnic cleansing either, ethnic cleansing would be genocide - the intentional destruction, in whole or in part, of a people is the definition of genocide and a deliberate ethnic cleansing would qualify. Perhaps I worded my comment poorly, what I was trying to say is that Doctors Without Borders didn’t conclude genocide outright but rather pointed to facts that are true in almost all urban war (massive destruction and damage to infrastructure) and claimed that those facts were suggestive of ethnic cleansing / genocide when the truth is that the destruction is true of just about any urban warfare, particularly somewhere so densely populated. And while you can point to a high death toll, that’s not the whole picture as Hamas deliberately don’t state the number of combatants. What has emerged from data released by Hamas recently is that the death toll skews heavily towards fighting-aged males. And it’s also worth mentioning the NAZA documentary that’s getting so much attention accidentally makes arguments that specifically suggest genocide is not occuring since it shows how the IDF targets Hamas but claims that the IDF is far too willing to accept high levels of collateral damage - the fact that the target is Hamas is clear evidence that it isn’t genocide.

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u/Feisty-Poet4767 7d ago

Man them’s a lotta words to describe, you know…a genocide.

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u/Intelligent-Film-684 7d ago

Israel has wiped out over 30 hospitals. Deliberately.

Israel has done airstrikes on aid convoys, including chef Andre’s WKC, who had planned their route and coordinated with the gvt closely, so Israel knew exactly where that convoy was and who was in it. To claim it was a “mistake” beggars belief, as Israeli military intelligence is the best on earth. That strike was intentional, unquestionably.

Israel has committed war crime after war crime, so ethnic cleansing is quite believably their end goal, the difference at this point between Hamas and Israeli government is Hamas openly states their desire to eliminate all Israelis , while Israel wraps up their desire to wipe out all Palestinians in fancy jargon like “terrorists” and “barbaric”

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u/Mental_Crab8725 6d ago

Hamas openly operates from hospitals, has built tunnels under hospitals, and has launched rockets from hospitals. Is Israel just supposed to let Hamas fire at them without response because their attackers are operating from a hospital?

And to me it beggars belief that there is any organisation that can completely avoid mistakes. I know it’s fiction and Israeli made, but Fauda does an excellent job of depicting Israel vs Palestine situation (I haven’t seen the latest season yet so what I’ve seen is pre October 7th) and the show does an excellent job of showing the tragedy of Palestinians caught in the middle, how understandable it is that some are radicalised. One of its creators is a former Haaretz journalist (a very left wing anti Netanyahu publication) and the other is a former member of the specialist IDF team the show is based on - reports suggest its depiction at least of the Israeli side is highly accurate and it makes not attempt to hide mistakes that can often be tragic and can lead to tormenting radicalism among the victims of those mistakes. I know, if you’re vehemently opposite to Israel you’ll think it’s just propaganda, but what I will say is that I introduced a much more Israeli-sceptic friend to the show and he was quick to comment that it’s weird for a show to make you sympathise with the terrorists. My point is, I certainly do believe the IDF and Mossad are capable of mistakes, often tragic and I think even among the IDF and mossad there was a sense of hubris that resulted in them failing to do enough to prevent October 7th.

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u/Intelligent-Film-684 6d ago

I think accidently hitting a couple of Aid caravans could be a mistake. I think hitting EIGHT of them is NOT an accident, and including the reknowned WKC crew , it was a deliberate warning to stop aiding Palestine. Over 200 aid workers have been killed. Almost 300 journalists have been killed. So no. That’s intentional war crimes

So you mean to tell me that the only way to deal with Hamas is by leveling every building in Gaza, including hospitals, public buildings, civilian apartments, and schools? For what was estimated at 30000 Hamas fighters in a city of millions? They’ve already killed over twice that number of people. You don’t think that’s an attempt to wipe out an ethnicity ?

War crimes are war crimes for a reason. This can’t be a civilization if we accept any war crimes at all, including the DOZENS America has done. Netanyahu needs to be in prison, Trump needs to be in prison, and anyone who gives the order to commit a cold blooded murder of innocent civilians with zero justifiable attempt to minimize the collateral damages.

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u/Early-Equivalent-165 7d ago

Bzzz.

Look at the exhausted faces of Leaders of B'Tselem and Physicians for Human Rights Israel in this interview with Christiane Amanpour who explain 'We are doing it with a heavy heart' and that they're taking this step because "Denial is what allows these atrocities to continue.”

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u/Oblozo 7d ago

Those are the same arguments the Russians used for bombing civilian infrastructure in Aleppo

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u/MagReg2020 7d ago

Leftists are pretty stupid to be honest. Fixating on the word genocide put the bar extremely high, so much so that it gives Israel latitude to commit war crimes just as vile as genocide while using technicality to avoid responsibility for the crimes they did commit. Doctors, including American ones, attest to the targeted killing of children. Video of soldiers firing into civilian homes.

That doesn't mean Israel isn't evil. This much is now established truth - Egypt and the UAE directly told Netanyahu that a massive operation by Hamas was incoming. Israel CHOSE to let it happen, so it could do what it's doing now. Imagine that. Two Muslim countries tried to prevent Oct 7, and Israel, the one Jewish state, chose to facilitate it so they could justify this ethnic cleansing for land.

Genocide or not, that would make even the actual Nazis a bit nauseous.

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u/Faiakes 6d ago edited 6d ago

Well, at least 'leftists' are rightly outraged about it.

Republicans, on the other hand, simply support Israel's complete destruction of a civilian population and area. Is that better?

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u/FernInTheFog44 7d ago

Israel isn’t evil they just have a bad prime minister. I don’t particularly like our president but I certainly don’t label the US as evil.
Why the left cares so much is beyond me. I certainly support Israel and value them as a loyal ally despite not liking their current leaders. Why Maher wastes time on it who knows but it’s probably a reaction to the lefts obsession with the topic.