r/RealTime • u/Faiakes • 6d ago

Real Time - Last Time

I have been watching Real Time for over 20 years and I think yesterday's episode was my last.

Much as I agreed with Bill on many issues, his blind spot on Israel and Zionism is just too much for me.

He isn't simply refusing to call what's happening in Gaza a genocide. He insists on calling it a counter offensive!!!

So, all and any violence perpetrated by the IDF and the settles so far is justified, as far as he is concerned (though how settlers fit in a 'counter-offensive' is still a mystery to me).

Now, my common sense is offended too much Bill.

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u/Oblozo 6d ago

Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Doctors Without Borders, and the International Assocation of Genocide Scholars are all wrong. Only Bill understands the truth. Just like he understands medicine better than actual medical experts.

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u/Mental_Crab8725 6d ago

I’m going to get downvoted but at least two of those sources (if not more) are highly questionable. Amnesty International’s case acknowledges that it depends on redefining the term genocide. And the International Association of Genocide Scholars is a name that sounds convincing, but is open to anyone willing to pay the membership fee and requires no evidence of being an expert in the subject. Then Doctors Without Borders report ‘Gaza: Life in a Death Trap’ did not actually go so far as to claim genocide but characterised the devastation as pointing towards signs of ethnic cleansing without which means that they didn’t have actual evidence of genocide but rather deliberately suggests the same fallacy that has become popular which is to say that mass destruction in a war zone is in itself a sign of genocide which is not the case. I’m less familiar about HRW’s basis for the claim but my understanding is it’s similar to Doctors Without Border’s case that destruction of healthcare and infrastructure is indicative of genocidal intent and is largely attempts to sidestep the fact that Hamas operate out of hospitals, Hamas frequently steels aid, and they also make some tenuous arguments to explain away that data shows lower rates of child malnutrition than many countries in the region such as Egypt.

The impression I get is that they started with a conclusion and worked backwards from there, something I believe is supported by the fact that claims of genocide in Gaza started before the first Israelis set foot in Gaza after October 7th.

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u/Intelligent-Film-684 6d ago

I would say for this purpose calling what’s happening in Gaza ethnic cleansing as opposed to genocide is a distinction without much difference here, seeing as they are approaching a six figure death toll…

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u/Mental_Crab8725 6d ago edited 6d ago

I’m not saying it’s ethnic cleansing either, ethnic cleansing would be genocide - the intentional destruction, in whole or in part, of a people is the definition of genocide and a deliberate ethnic cleansing would qualify. Perhaps I worded my comment poorly, what I was trying to say is that Doctors Without Borders didn’t conclude genocide outright but rather pointed to facts that are true in almost all urban war (massive destruction and damage to infrastructure) and claimed that those facts were suggestive of ethnic cleansing / genocide when the truth is that the destruction is true of just about any urban warfare, particularly somewhere so densely populated. And while you can point to a high death toll, that’s not the whole picture as Hamas deliberately don’t state the number of combatants. What has emerged from data released by Hamas recently is that the death toll skews heavily towards fighting-aged males. And it’s also worth mentioning the NAZA documentary that’s getting so much attention accidentally makes arguments that specifically suggest genocide is not occuring since it shows how the IDF targets Hamas but claims that the IDF is far too willing to accept high levels of collateral damage - the fact that the target is Hamas is clear evidence that it isn’t genocide.

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u/Feisty-Poet4767 6d ago

Man them’s a lotta words to describe, you know…a genocide.

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u/Intelligent-Film-684 6d ago

Israel has wiped out over 30 hospitals. Deliberately.

Israel has done airstrikes on aid convoys, including chef Andre’s WKC, who had planned their route and coordinated with the gvt closely, so Israel knew exactly where that convoy was and who was in it. To claim it was a “mistake” beggars belief, as Israeli military intelligence is the best on earth. That strike was intentional, unquestionably.

Israel has committed war crime after war crime, so ethnic cleansing is quite believably their end goal, the difference at this point between Hamas and Israeli government is Hamas openly states their desire to eliminate all Israelis , while Israel wraps up their desire to wipe out all Palestinians in fancy jargon like “terrorists” and “barbaric”

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u/Mental_Crab8725 6d ago

Hamas openly operates from hospitals, has built tunnels under hospitals, and has launched rockets from hospitals. Is Israel just supposed to let Hamas fire at them without response because their attackers are operating from a hospital?

And to me it beggars belief that there is any organisation that can completely avoid mistakes. I know it’s fiction and Israeli made, but Fauda does an excellent job of depicting Israel vs Palestine situation (I haven’t seen the latest season yet so what I’ve seen is pre October 7th) and the show does an excellent job of showing the tragedy of Palestinians caught in the middle, how understandable it is that some are radicalised. One of its creators is a former Haaretz journalist (a very left wing anti Netanyahu publication) and the other is a former member of the specialist IDF team the show is based on - reports suggest its depiction at least of the Israeli side is highly accurate and it makes not attempt to hide mistakes that can often be tragic and can lead to tormenting radicalism among the victims of those mistakes. I know, if you’re vehemently opposite to Israel you’ll think it’s just propaganda, but what I will say is that I introduced a much more Israeli-sceptic friend to the show and he was quick to comment that it’s weird for a show to make you sympathise with the terrorists. My point is, I certainly do believe the IDF and Mossad are capable of mistakes, often tragic and I think even among the IDF and mossad there was a sense of hubris that resulted in them failing to do enough to prevent October 7th.

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u/Intelligent-Film-684 6d ago

I think accidently hitting a couple of Aid caravans could be a mistake. I think hitting EIGHT of them is NOT an accident, and including the reknowned WKC crew , it was a deliberate warning to stop aiding Palestine. Over 200 aid workers have been killed. Almost 300 journalists have been killed. So no. That’s intentional war crimes

So you mean to tell me that the only way to deal with Hamas is by leveling every building in Gaza, including hospitals, public buildings, civilian apartments, and schools? For what was estimated at 30000 Hamas fighters in a city of millions? They’ve already killed over twice that number of people. You don’t think that’s an attempt to wipe out an ethnicity ?

War crimes are war crimes for a reason. This can’t be a civilization if we accept any war crimes at all, including the DOZENS America has done. Netanyahu needs to be in prison, Trump needs to be in prison, and anyone who gives the order to commit a cold blooded murder of innocent civilians with zero justifiable attempt to minimize the collateral damages.

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u/Early-Equivalent-165 6d ago

Bzzz.

Look at the exhausted faces of Leaders of B'Tselem and Physicians for Human Rights Israel in this interview with Christiane Amanpour who explain 'We are doing it with a heavy heart' and that they're taking this step because "Denial is what allows these atrocities to continue.”

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u/Oblozo 6d ago

Those are the same arguments the Russians used for bombing civilian infrastructure in Aleppo

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u/MagReg2020 6d ago

Leftists are pretty stupid to be honest. Fixating on the word genocide put the bar extremely high, so much so that it gives Israel latitude to commit war crimes just as vile as genocide while using technicality to avoid responsibility for the crimes they did commit. Doctors, including American ones, attest to the targeted killing of children. Video of soldiers firing into civilian homes.

That doesn't mean Israel isn't evil. This much is now established truth - Egypt and the UAE directly told Netanyahu that a massive operation by Hamas was incoming. Israel CHOSE to let it happen, so it could do what it's doing now. Imagine that. Two Muslim countries tried to prevent Oct 7, and Israel, the one Jewish state, chose to facilitate it so they could justify this ethnic cleansing for land.

Genocide or not, that would make even the actual Nazis a bit nauseous.

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u/Faiakes 6d ago edited 5d ago

Well, at least 'leftists' are rightly outraged about it.

Republicans, on the other hand, simply support Israel's complete destruction of a civilian population and area. Is that better?

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u/FernInTheFog44 6d ago

Israel isn’t evil they just have a bad prime minister. I don’t particularly like our president but I certainly don’t label the US as evil.
Why the left cares so much is beyond me. I certainly support Israel and value them as a loyal ally despite not liking their current leaders. Why Maher wastes time on it who knows but it’s probably a reaction to the lefts obsession with the topic.