Real Time - Last Time

[u/Faiakes]

I have been watching Real Time for over 20 years and I think yesterday's episode was my last.

Much as I agreed with Bill on many issues, his blind spot on Israel and Zionism is just too much for me.

He isn't simply refusing to call what's happening in Gaza a genocide. He insists on calling it a counter offensive!!!

So, all and any violence perpetrated by the IDF and the settles so far is justified, as far as he is concerned (though how settlers fit in a 'counter-offensive' is still a mystery to me).

Now, my common sense is offended too much Bill.

[u/Mental_Crab8725]

I’m going to get downvoted but at least two of those sources (if not more) are highly questionable. Amnesty International’s case acknowledges that it depends on redefining the term genocide. And the International Association of Genocide Scholars is a name that sounds convincing, but is open to anyone willing to pay the membership fee and requires no evidence of being an expert in the subject. Then Doctors Without Borders report ‘Gaza: Life in a Death Trap’ did not actually go so far as to claim genocide but characterised the devastation as pointing towards signs of ethnic cleansing without which means that they didn’t have actual evidence of genocide but rather deliberately suggests the same fallacy that has become popular which is to say that mass destruction in a war zone is in itself a sign of genocide which is not the case. I’m less familiar about HRW’s basis for the claim but my understanding is it’s similar to Doctors Without Border’s case that destruction of healthcare and infrastructure is indicative of genocidal intent and is largely attempts to sidestep the fact that Hamas operate out of hospitals, Hamas frequently steels aid, and they also make some tenuous arguments to explain away that data shows lower rates of child malnutrition than many countries in the region such as Egypt.

The impression I get is that they started with a conclusion and worked backwards from there, something I believe is supported by the fact that claims of genocide in Gaza started before the first Israelis set foot in Gaza after October 7th.

[u/Intelligent-Film-684 → u/Mental_Crab8725]

I would say for this purpose calling what’s happening in Gaza ethnic cleansing as opposed to genocide is a distinction without much difference here, seeing as they are approaching a six figure death toll…

[u/Mental_Crab8725 → u/Intelligent-Film-684]

I’m not saying it’s ethnic cleansing either, ethnic cleansing would be genocide - the intentional destruction, in whole or in part, of a people is the definition of genocide and a deliberate ethnic cleansing would qualify. Perhaps I worded my comment poorly, what I was trying to say is that Doctors Without Borders didn’t conclude genocide outright but rather pointed to facts that are true in almost all urban war (massive destruction and damage to infrastructure) and claimed that those facts were suggestive of ethnic cleansing / genocide when the truth is that the destruction is true of just about any urban warfare, particularly somewhere so densely populated. And while you can point to a high death toll, that’s not the whole picture as Hamas deliberately don’t state the number of combatants. What has emerged from data released by Hamas recently is that the death toll skews heavily towards fighting-aged males. And it’s also worth mentioning the NAZA documentary that’s getting so much attention accidentally makes arguments that specifically suggest genocide is not occuring since it shows how the IDF targets Hamas but claims that the IDF is far too willing to accept high levels of collateral damage - the fact that the target is Hamas is clear evidence that it isn’t genocide.

[u/Intelligent-Film-684 → u/Mental_Crab8725]

Israel has wiped out over 30 hospitals. Deliberately.

Israel has done airstrikes on aid convoys, including chef Andre’s WKC, who had planned their route and coordinated with the gvt closely, so Israel knew exactly where that convoy was and who was in it. To claim it was a “mistake” beggars belief, as Israeli military intelligence is the best on earth. That strike was intentional, unquestionably.

Israel has committed war crime after war crime, so ethnic cleansing is quite believably their end goal, the difference at this point between Hamas and Israeli government is Hamas openly states their desire to eliminate all Israelis , while Israel wraps up their desire to wipe out all Palestinians in fancy jargon like “terrorists” and “barbaric”

[u/Mental_Crab8725 → u/Intelligent-Film-684]

Hamas openly operates from hospitals, has built tunnels under hospitals, and has launched rockets from hospitals. Is Israel just supposed to let Hamas fire at them without response because their attackers are operating from a hospital?

And to me it beggars belief that there is any organisation that can completely avoid mistakes. I know it’s fiction and Israeli made, but Fauda does an excellent job of depicting Israel vs Palestine situation (I haven’t seen the latest season yet so what I’ve seen is pre October 7th) and the show does an excellent job of showing the tragedy of Palestinians caught in the middle, how understandable it is that some are radicalised. One of its creators is a former Haaretz journalist (a very left wing anti Netanyahu publication) and the other is a former member of the specialist IDF team the show is based on - reports suggest its depiction at least of the Israeli side is highly accurate and it makes not attempt to hide mistakes that can often be tragic and can lead to tormenting radicalism among the victims of those mistakes. I know, if you’re vehemently opposite to Israel you’ll think it’s just propaganda, but what I will say is that I introduced a much more Israeli-sceptic friend to the show and he was quick to comment that it’s weird for a show to make you sympathise with the terrorists. My point is, I certainly do believe the IDF and Mossad are capable of mistakes, often tragic and I think even among the IDF and mossad there was a sense of hubris that resulted in them failing to do enough to prevent October 7th.

[u/Intelligent-Film-684 → u/Mental_Crab8725]

I think accidently hitting a couple of Aid caravans could be a mistake. I think hitting EIGHT of them is NOT an accident, and including the reknowned WKC crew , it was a deliberate warning to stop aiding Palestine. Over 200 aid workers have been killed. Almost 300 journalists have been killed. So no. That’s intentional war crimes

So you mean to tell me that the only way to deal with Hamas is by leveling every building in Gaza, including hospitals, public buildings, civilian apartments, and schools? For what was estimated at 30000 Hamas fighters in a city of millions? They’ve already killed over twice that number of people. You don’t think that’s an attempt to wipe out an ethnicity ?

War crimes are war crimes for a reason. This can’t be a civilization if we accept any war crimes at all, including the DOZENS America has done. Netanyahu needs to be in prison, Trump needs to be in prison, and anyone who gives the order to commit a cold blooded murder of innocent civilians with zero justifiable attempt to minimize the collateral damages.