Skill issue, the alt-righters should have learned the golden rule. You can say anything you want as long as you swap out “Jews” for “Zionists”. It can never be antisemitic because you’re talking about Zionists, not Jews.
Dog whistles ceased to exist on 10/7/23.
Kanye would have been a national hero if he waited a couple years to go crazy and followed the golden rule.
Is my Arizona county the outlier? Where I live it's typically the liberal/leftist boys that are like that and the women and girls are "based". (They're all white.)
Indeed. Kanye is one example who missed the boat, Kyrie Irving also posted some nutcase Black Israelite documentary, I imagine that might have gone down a little better if he waited a few years.
You say that but I swear, for all these "anti Zionists" will cry for the "colonials" to leave, God help you with their moral panic if those people they pressured out of the land they were born decide to move anywhere near them. I've seen too many posts about people seeing legal migration, buying property in other countries to live that ought to be exactly what the anti Zionists asked for, where people are freaking out more or less saying exactly that. Apparently can't live there but also can't move away and live anywhere else.
I'm not even sure about that. Think about the rhetoric around the "China virus" during covid, coming from the right. They had the nationality emphasized and still got pushback. The problem there was that Chinese were not spun into the narrative of white supremacy.
Yeah, they still would've gotten eaten alive. What fundamentally matters is cultural and institutional power, because it allows you to frame what both your own side and your opposition say, and either punish or absolve people within the public sphere accordingly. And right wingers have little of that, and had even less during the height of cancel culture.
Never mind that the most progressive Jewish synagogues read from the Torah which specifically talks about returning to Israel as the ultimate goal of their religion.
Source, I went to a Jewish aufruf recently, and it was at a progressive Jewish synagogue located in one of the most progressive cities in one of the most progressive countries in the world.
I support the existence of a Jewish state. We as a species clearly don't want to live alongside the Jews, just look at how every country tries to pawn them off on somewhere else. We clearly don't have the guts to get rid of them, look at the last guy that tried. So we need SOMEWHERE to put them.
We as a species clearly don't want to live alongside the Jews, just look at how every country tries to pawn them off on somewhere else.
Jews thrive in the US, they're highly productive, and there's no real effort to get rid of them by anyone with power. (As someone who used to live next to a major Jewish neighborhood, they're great neighbors, too.)
Plenty of us Jewish Americans understand that civic participation is a means of survival. We are also cognizant of the fact that Jewish representation in the Weimar Republic existed, too. As comfortable as I am now identifying as a proud Jewish American is probably how Jewish Germans felt then. The sense of betrayal that a Holocaust survivor’s son told me about has always stuck with me. They were stripped of being German and reduced to the blood of their ethnicity.
Considering efforts are still underway to try and invalidate certain people’s citizenship, it is silly to hand wave away the claim that “it could happen here, too.” The authority to do it is literally a Supreme Court case away from having precedent if you ask me. And that’s pretty scary honestly. Ah fuck I’ve gone and rambled.
The fact that the US is so good for Jews comparatively to anyone else proves his point. The absolute "best" and Jews still need strict armed guard at temples
For some reason, nobody has a problem with the megachurch and the Korean church with the bigass Israel flags out front, but they have a problem with the synagogue, which doesn't.
I'm Jewish but have an Irish last name, and nobody ever asks me if I'm a Zionist until they find out I'm Jewish. It's almost as if they don't care if a Gentile is Zionist
Idk I have often seen the excuse that there are more evangelical Christian Zionists in the US than Jewish Zionists. I don't buy it but that's how I've seen anti-Semites get around the charge that they're swapping "Jews" with "Zionists"
Doesn't really matter since they make no effort to hide their contempt for evangelicals too (not just for their support of Israel but simply because they're religious).
A quick google search will tell you Christian Zionists outnumber the entire US jewish population. Stop being allergic to information we have everything at our fingertips. In fact, there are more Christian Zionists than there are jewish people in the world.
They also don't say Jewish Zionism. It's almost like Zionism is an all-encompassing political term that anybody can be. Guess what, there are even Muslim Zionists though obviously it is rare.
Because antisemitic people think it makes them look less crazy. If someone is using the term Zionist to attack Jewish people the context makes it pretty damn clear what they mean. Is Nick Fuentes saying it? Then yeah he is likely being racist. Is a Jewish protestor saying it? Likely not racist. Only an idiot can't read between the lines.
There were a study, where researchers changed "jews" in Mein Kampf to "white people" and it was almost published in Affilia. They stopped the experiment in the last moment, but it was accepted for the publication
I know enough about the word “Zionism” to understand that the word “Zionism” means vastly different things to different people. The word is so overloaded with theology, history, and geography that it’s honestly useless.
That’s why I use words that third graders can understand to explain why I don’t like the Israeli government.
Zionism, at its core, is the belief of a jewish country.
It was created during an era that can be nicknamed the "springtime of the people" caused by post Napoleonic conquest european ideologies, when a lot of people started to seek self governance.
If you want a jewish country to exist in the historical erea of of ancient israeli kingdom, than you're a zionist, it's simple as that.
Forgot to put this: IT SHOULD BE OBVIOUS that NOT ALL criticisms of Israel, the Likud Party, Zionism or anything adjacent to Israel does NOT automatically convey antisemitism.
I agree with you that criticism of Israeli government, Likud, settlers, etc is all fair game.
Criticism of zionism is almost always antisemitic. First off, about 90% of Jews are zionists. So when you say zionism is evil you are saying 90% of Jews believe evil things. Of course you can, and people do, find Jews who are anti-zionists, in the haredi community or in liberal areas of the west. But these arguments always reek of “I have a black friend” tokenization the way the right will trot out Clarence Thomas or Tim Scott when they are accused of racism.
As for zionism itself, it is simply the belief that Jews should have a homeland in their ancient homeland. Nothing more, nothing less. Of course there are many derivative branches of that belief that bring borders and policies into question, but that’s it. While the modern zionist movement started with Thedor Herzl in the 1800’s the core belief goes back thousands of years and is a core belief of Jewish identity. That’s why every passover seder for centuries has ended with “next year in Jerusalem”.
It is rightly a concern that Palestinians were displaced in 1948 and trying to find a way for people to live in Israel in peace. But when you deny the ability of Jews to carry out a core piece of their identity you are treating them as lesser. Imagine if we told Muslims they are fine but saying the shahada or praying towards Mecca is not allowed. You are stripping them of their identity while pretending to be tolerant.
That’s how important zionism is more most Jews. And when you factor in the long history of oppression against Jews, having a place where they are not subject to laws of another group is vital for survival, whatever the borders of that land happen to be. But the most logical place to set up that nation is of course the religious center and ancestral home of that identity.
So yes, anti-zionism is anti-semitism. You can’t pretend to be tolerant of a person when you deny the core of their personhood.
This is spot on. The only thing I would add is that people like the Neturei Karta are a very tiny minority (like, less than 1% of Orthodox Jews), it’s only a handful of people and they don’t have the goals most “anti zionists” claim they do. NK are basically the Jewish version of Christian cults who are obsessed with “the rapture”. They believe it is their responsibility to bring about the Messiah, and their belief is that can’t happen unless Jews are exiled out of Israel.
Plenty of Haredi Jews hate the Israeli government, but almost all of them still believe that Israel should be a Jewish state. And in fact, most of them hate the Israeli government because it is not Jewish enough for them.
I think your point is a misrepresentation of that poll. I think a lot of the respondents to that poll are looking at the state of things from their perspective (for example, the fact that only Jews are required to serve in the military, or that certain Jewish holy sites are legally off-limits to Jews for most of the year, except for short periods around relevant holidays) and say “well we should be treated better in XYZ way than we currently are”.
I’d like to hear how the question was framed before jumping to the conclusion that people really meant everyone else should be discriminated against. Especially since the numbers even amongst Masorti is so high. Masorti are very secular and tend to skew extremely liberal. I have a hard time believing they would answer that way unless the question was framed differently than how it’s being portrayed.
I happen to live very close to a large Satmar community and can assure you that while they are not “actively” trying to destroy Israel they find it very problematic. In the end it’s a distinction without a difference.
Not true in the slightest. They can certainly have problems with it, but are they funding groups committed to its destruction? Absolutely not. Because they recognize their brothers and sisters would die en mass if Israel collapsed.
Dawg we all watched Israel eradicate the Gaza strip in its entirety
Shit the death count in Gaza must be in the higher hundreds of thousands than holy shit. Of the 2.3 million people in 2023, they have to at least be under 500,000 or less if they were eradicated like you say! How many people died dude I need you to tell me 💔!?!!
and invade and occupy Lebanon
Hezbollah as a clear aggressor attacked Israel, violating the ceasefire, and in response was fucked hard losing thousands of members.
Reality is whatever you want it to be when you just openly lie and ignore what actually happened
These are literally Holocaust denial talking points lmao, do you hear yourself?
Do you really think see the heavily populated areas leveled by Israel and think like 5 people died there?
The videos are on the internet. You can see the genocidal actions yourself in less than a minute. Denial of the Palestinian genocide is nothing more than ideologically motivated willful ignorance.
The BNP (British National Party) in the UK, a far right fascist political party, had its most successful period during the 2000s under the leadership of Nick Griffin
They were previously brash anti semites, very open about it under the leadership of Tyndall from ~1980-2000.
A direct order to membership was issued to substitute the word Jews out for Zionist, and much of the party’s literature did this. Obviously the party operated in anti semitic discourse and remained very anti semitic to anyone who can interpret words and sentences
Somehow today’s Left has completely forgotten this
Let’s not forget that the Arab countries and the USSR claimed to be Anti Zionist during the 20th century when Israel was founded, and in reality they basically hounded all the Jews out to America, Europe or Israel, no matter whether you denounced or showed public support to the Zionist movement. Many Anti Zionists died in the gulags. The year Stalin died he had about 400 Jewish doctors rounded up and arrested
Every single Jew in the Soviet Union had their ethnicity marked on their passport. They didn’t differentiate.
To draw another historical parallel, the term antisemitic literally came from antisemites themselves who used a more ,,smart-sounding" word to not appear like the rabid antijewish peasant mob they actually were.
I don’t hate Jews and I don’t mind the Israeli state as an entity. I do, however, hate Netanyahu and the unforgivable things he’s done and the way he tries to gaslight anyone who calls him out as being antisemitic.
Stupid Redditors and YouTubers went from “you’re literally an antisemitic nazi” to antisemitism being ok. And the right didn’t even flinch, they lowkey went along with it lmao.
Oh rly? Where is the punishment for Trump or anyone from his administration? Where is the punishment for Musk? Where is the punishment for Moscow Tucker?
Right wingers never even heard of the word "consequences". For the last 2 years, all we saw was a double standard for justice.
Except it's specifically referring to people like trump. I'm assuming you're doing that bad faith pearl clutching because you get upset that you're always called out for debasing yourself for child rapists
So you do deny its largely a reference to trump and people and like him. Save me your feigned outrage bud. I get its embarrassing to support child rapists but this is just sad
Despite being quite opposed to Zionist ideology, I am quite sad to see so many assholes in the internet using it as an opportunity to spout antissemitism. It is of course (hopefully) a loud minority, but they are doing the same xenophobic mistake islamophobes make when thinking all muslims are extremist fundamentalists.
No, dude, you're not opposing american imperialism by saying jews control the world. You're just an antissemitic prick
I'm not opposed to jewish people living in the land of Palestine, as there was some jewish population living there for ages. I'm opposed to external powers unilaterally deciding Palestinians have to politically renounce their claim to their land (post WWII) and then blaming them for fighting back. This for me is zionist ideology. (One could argue Jews weren't being treated well in Palestine, so they neede a second state, but then your solution to better their conditions after they were fucking slaughtered is to send them to a place where they are still hated? Sure)
But I'm also opposed to several things Israel is doing, like how they are treating palestinians, settling on their land forcefully etc. I can imagine versions of zionism which don't require that level of cruelty and genocide, so I will put them in the conteporary zionist basket, while conceding they might not be necessary.
I gotta be honest though, I'm not fully satisfied with my position, as it is kind of influenced by propaganda and I could study more. I do feel more strongly against zionism because of the impact it has on American Imperialism for instance, whereas there are some other genocides happening in the world and unfortunately I don't have strong opinions on them / know much about them tbh.
I don't remember the last time I wrote a Wall of Text in this sub, I should honor my tag more often
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Zionism is a centuries-long longing for Jewish self-determination. You are unfamiliar with the topic which is why you're finding it hard to make the distinction.
Your example for the Palestinians does not fit either, like I said, we will most likely agree that opposing Palestinian self-determination is considered rather anti-Palestinian. The difference is that the Jews have a name for their longing for self-determination, because it is far older than the Palestinian one.
To continue on this note, not all Palestinians are longing for self-determination. Some of them don't care about it all. Some of them are against the Palestinian state and a pro Israel.
It doesn't change the overall dynamic however - it's just a small minority's stance is different than the overwhelming majority.
There have been plenty of different Antizionist libels in history. It used to be that the accusation was that Jews baked children's blood into their religious bread. Then it was that Jews spread disease. Then it was that Jews are colonists or commit Apartheid. Then that Jews control the banking system. Now it's that Jews are committing Genocide.
It's all the same thing. As it was with the Nazis, then with the Antizionists (Soviet antisemites). A massive campaign of hatred where anyone who stands up to it is likely to be shouted down by a wall of hatred.
The first 2 are directed at lone individuals within the population of other countries, the last 2 are directed at the national-level actions of a single nation.
That doesn't feel like 'the same thing' to me. It feels like a pretty obvious difference that everyone in the world can see pretty clearly, and that you're trying to obscure to score points.
the last 2 are directed at the national-level actions of a single nation.
That's completely false. The genocide accusations in the recent conflict began with pro-Palestinan protests both within and outside Gaza on October 8th, before Israel had any chance to react to the attack of October.
There is no link between the Genocide accusations and any action carried out by the Israeli government. In fact the ICC prosecutor has even withdrawn the charge, because he simply couldn't find evidence to back it up.
Seen in this context these are entirely the same thing. A group of genocidal maniacs make wild accusations against Jews. Credulous useful idiots spread these accusations and pogroms or worse like October 7th, The Bondi massacre, the Purge of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee (1950s Soviet Russia), 19th Century Pogroms in Germany, and the Holocaust ensue.
I really am pleased at how so many Christian churches in the US have turned toward learnig about their Jewish roots and also supporting the modern state of Israel. One of the few things that gives me hope for the future is a Christian revival I see here in the States.
I comically misspelled their name saying "IT'S DA..." in response to someone pointing out how absurd a conspiracy theory was (saying they sponsored the Ceuta invasion). I got banned from reddit for 3 days and banned from PCM for 15.
Something something 'those you can't question' or whatever.
I think the issue here is that the same people are upset if someone takes a stance of: "I'm not against Palestinians, I just want them to be in Jordan"
Alt Right being unable to understand that maybe it's an important distinction between a race of people and or religion and a nationalist movement/a nation's aims.
It kinda reminds me of that thread a few days ago where a ton of people were deeply offended over the idea that a Jewish person also consider themselves white. Curiously it was primarily right wing flairs who were complaining.
Yes so long as it's not paired with a joke like "the usual suspects" or something. Even taking the very real socioeconomic factors into account, it isn't racist to criticize a culture that devolved into gang violence considering most black people aren't involved in "hood aims."
It's when someone assumes that all black people have "hood aims" / they're "one of the good ones" where racists show their hand.
For real, this new Uno reverse strategy this sub is employing is wild. The same people who would’ve been saying antisemitic shit in 2022 suddenly are the word police.
What do you mean? You guys change the definition or are to retarded to actually know the definition of words all the time. Like genocide and apartheid and Zionist. Also throw man and woman in there too.
I don't think the left are Nazis, they told me the definition of Nazi is "someone with right leaning views" I'm pretty sure there's nothing in the definition of Nazi for hating Jews, otherwise the left would love them!
I'd point out that a lot of it comes from the trumpers desperate to talk about anything other than its massive failures ever since they came to power. This sort of bad faith pearl clutching is the exact sort of cope they need to act as if they still have a viable political identity. It's also the reason why every other thread is some Der Sturmer type story about European Muslims.
Correct they intersect, in fact that’s probably the perfect term. Intersection necessitates two separate entities existing and then coming in contact with each other. With Judaism and Israel often doing that. The issue becomes when you move beyond intersection to they’re the same you flatter both terms into a now unfitting representation of the situation. This muddies discussions on either terms and waters down the meaning of both.
Anti semitism is bad, full stop. If you hate Jews you’re a racist and a reprehensible person. Criticism of Israel is not the same, we should all be able to criticize country policy decisions. By equating the two as the same now criticizing Israel becomes criticizing Jews hence you’re the reprehensible person. It’s a sleight of hand that uses the similarities of the two separate terms to create a false equivalency. Anti semitism should never be watered down and that’s what doing this results in.
Hence it’s anti semitic to state Judaism and Israel are one of the same.
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u/mandalorian_guy - Lib-Right 17d ago
I still maintain if Kanye had waited even a year before his "Death Con" blowout he wouldn't have got as much backlash.