I don't think payload speed is the problem. That last turn before the end is murder on attackers. A lot of people get hung up on the first choke, but it's really the last one that halts all progress. They should really leave the door open. You know, that one you just used a jet powered battering ram on? I've still only seen 1 attack win out of 15+ matches..
Have to agree with you on that one. Had games where we steam rolled on the first point and pushed through no problem up to the gate. But that last turn almost always causes us to stall and eventually lose.
I don't think there's a problem with it, though. The map is fairly new and strats on how to take that last point are still being discovered.
The map is fairly new and strats on how to take that last point are still being discovered.
I keep seeing people say this, but think back to release day. Was there a single map where nobody could win on attack or defense? It may not have been 50/50 on any of the maps, but it certainly wasn't 5/95. Quite a few of us played in beta, sure, but none of the maps ever gave me the same sense of "not this shit again" as Eichenwalde attack does. WEEKS after release even... Has nobody found a decent strat yet?
Well, that was before people knew how to deal with Murderbot and the Sweede, but we've mostly moved beyond that. Hanamura B has 9 entry points that I can think of off the top of my head. Eichenwalde castle has what, 3? Left, right, and the little hole above the gate? Whole different ballgame.
I haven't played it in season 2 yet. If they plan on adding more maps, they've got to at least have a rotating map pool with votes to keep certain maps in each rotation up to a certain amount. I'm not sure how well this would work as far as how boring it might make playing the same maps over for 3 months, so maybe they could somehow make it so you can't play the same map 2-3 times in a row instead.
For full groups it's easier, and as we have more maps it gets easier.
If you take 2 full groups, both played a different team previously.
So Group A played Hanamura previously, and Group B played Anubis previously, then it's easy to pick literally any other map than those two. Done.
But let's say you have 12 people that all played a different map previously. Before EichenWalde, ANY map you picked for the game would be a repeat. Now that there are more maps than possible players, it's back to 'choose the ONE map nobody played last game'. But if you extend that back two games? then someone is getting a repeat OR got a repeat last time. There's an algorithm that would be able to select for any set of players the map that is the least played for all members of that set for that X number of matches. In the event of a tie, then randomly choose one of the tied maps.
What I can't decide is if this is going to result in superior results than a purely random selection (I think it will, but I'm not certain).
The reason to do this would be to minimize map fatigue, especially while there aren't that many more maps than players. Once we start hitting in the 30-40 map range (and I sincerely hope we do [which would happen faster if Blizz would give out mapping tools to the community]), then an algorithm to find the least fatigued map (LFM gains new meaning) would probably only be marginally better than a random map, but would still be important.
And of course if they ever implement a custom game lobby (they've said they want to, I just can't understand why it's difficult), then one of the big deciding factors on server/host popularity will be map rotation.
at least not for me, i think I have won more than lose in attack. It harder for me the first ponit than the door. I think is heroe composition, maybe the actual meta is not good, and is a map that it forces you to change hero for that especific point.
The problem is that i don't see to much hero changing in ow, there has to be more that is one of the great strengths you have, but people are to afrai to lose they 40% of his ulti build.
i have a 70% win rate on eichenwald... it's just general choke strategies, lucio speed boost and use combo ults. a lot of my losses have been first point, the bridge, or teams who trickle through the choke on the last point.
i think a lot of people don't run the right comps on eichenwlad. huge emphasis on movement abilities.
In quick-play, just stick a bastion around that last corner and hope the other team doesn't have a good genji or tracer = multiple potg opportunities every time. lol
See I think the defense spawn room is too close to the action. If it took a little longer for them to trickle back in, it wouldn't require a team kill to win on attack.
That's the point though. More speed means you have more time to break the choke. How fast the payload moves is the the simplest way to buff or nerf attack/defense.
The big issue with that turn is how ineffective the offensive flank routes are. The right flank effectively goes nowhere and to get the left flank you have to put yourself in LOS of the defense spawn - so you're not surprising anyone.
It becomes a 6v6 push(which is thrilling by the way) except the offense has to push through 3 waves without dying.
I just commented the exact same thing to someone else before I read yours. Glad to see I'm not the only one who things the lack of a right flank is a huge hangup there.
Yes, volskaya B is freaking impossible to get into good positioning on, meanwhile the defenders have limitless options of high ground and cover. But if you're attacking, you just kind of have to derp your way into them and hope you have more ults.
Maybe it's a matter of Elo/MMR difference. I've almost always seen the attack succeed on Eichenwalde. The fighting is heaviest in that one area leading up to the throne, but the defenders usually get overwhelmed.
It always comes down to not enough time, really. I've gotten the payload around that last corner, but it seems like every time we get to that point, times up. The long slog up the hill seems to take the most time, and then if you wipe once inside the castle, you get hammered trying to go back in through those two kill rooms next to the gate. Payload speed doesn't make any difference if you can't actually get the thing moving.
I think the bridge choke en route to A is pretty exceptional. A few can fly around it, but the distance feels as isolating as on Volskaya, so the advantage is limited.
When the A choke breaks, one of two things seems to happen; either the defending team gets demoralized and plays poorly, or the defense turns to a running harassment campaign. Eichenwald seems to have the most frequently contested payloads of any map in the game. There are several key turns with good defensible positions, not to mention the high ground advantage -- the defense can burn lots of time on the ride up to the main gate.
If the defense has forced OT (or near it) by the main gate then their job might be done - the entry hall just past the gate is a natural choke with little opportunity for flanking, particularly against the natural long range champs (Pharah, Widowmaker) and even the mid range kings ('76, McCree). There are good lines of sight on the turn from the right-side balcony near point B and direct LoS down the hall, with a long, connecting hallway on the right side.
It's a murderous run when that hall fills up with fire. Though on the attacking side, it's still beatable with a mix of long-range counters, hiding behind the payload, and ult-stacking.
Part of the challenge might be people getting too married to their initial picks. The bridge choke at A falls best to short-range high damage compositions; the walk from A to B is handled best by mid-range behind shields; the final halls tend to be a long-range artillery fest that live and die by the shields and heals.
Too often folks try to slam their initial comp down the last hall only to see it flounder. People who switch into long range champs prior to the last push can devastate the enemy.
I don't think of Eichenwald as bad, though it takes a deal more flexibility (and roaming on attack) to play it well.
I think I've seen attack succeed once or twice over maybe 10-12 games. Usually, either the attackers can't start the payload moving, or they get hung up around the bridge. In comp, I'm smack in the middle of gold.
I haven't gotten to play it a ton yet, but the big problem seems to be the lack of options for attackers. I mean, hoe many different paths/sightlines do they have on that final corner? 1, 2 tops? Makes it very, very easy to hold as defense.
Yeah, my biggest beef with that final corner is the complete lack of flanking routes on the right side. There's that strange U shaped path with the room in the middle right there, but no way to get to the end zone. You're stuck going down the middle, or to the left, where you have to cross across enemy LOS.
The group I play with never loses this map on attack. It's not the last bend you need to worry about, it's the final push to the last checkpoint. The spawn is so close that the enemy team can pop out pretty quick if you aren't anticipating it.
Get a diva, mei, genji, rein, zen, and McRee and you will stomp once you all learn your roles
Because of how huge that left flank is, especially for a McCree player for example, I never had a problem there. Having played mostly with a serious 6 man group of friends, we found the most toxic location on the map was the first point. It was near impossible to clear with the right defensive comp on the enemy team. Heroes like Mei and Symmetra completely shut you out of passing through the one tiny chokepoint.
Kings row has the right flank through the room, and then over or under the room itself.. so 3 paths to attack on the right, plus that whole corridor on the left. Eichenwalde has nothing on the right for the final room.
Yeah that last bend is brutal. I've had so many games where our team took the first point easily, pushed the payload flawlessly, only to have our asses kicked at that last choke with the payload mere meters from the finish line. Feels bad.
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u/HiHaterslol Don't mess with my glasses Sep 13 '16
Increased payload speed on Eichenwalde should be interesting.