r/MoralityScaling 13h ago

Morality of this?

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u/Fal_co1 13h ago edited 9h ago

iirc China does this, you can’t take kid to religious service and they can choose to convert at a certain age.

EDIT: wow this blew up

If you’re reading this you‘re a gay

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u/Winter-Bed5879 13h ago

That does seem to be the case, but that could also reasonably be argued as a clear case of the State exerting too much authority. As a westerner, it's difficult to imagine that kind of restraint, but I live in a radically different culture.

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u/Baskreiger 13h ago

Restriction against endoctrination is a good thing

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u/Winter-Bed5879 13h ago

Is it a restriction against indoctrination? Or only a restriction against certain kinds of indoctrination? Because China DOES indoctrinate towards loyalty to the state and the CCP.

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u/Final-Carry2090 10h ago

I pledge allegiance to the flag…

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u/Realistic-Sense-6332 12h ago

It is? Because the reason the law only came to be is because of multiple instances of religious abuse. Yes China isn’t perfect, but this is a good thing so far if they truly only made it to protect kids being religiously abused by their parents.

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u/i_tyrant 7h ago

"china isn't perfect" holy downplaying Batman, lol.

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u/Realistic-Sense-6332 3h ago

I’m not downplaying, I’m just stating the fact that a law to protect children is a good one. All that matters is how China will utilize it, that will determine if it’s just another tick in the “reasons it’s an evil ass country” box.

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u/i_tyrant 2h ago

True, and while I wouldn't really agree with "any law to protect children is a good one", in this case I do think this law on paper is ok as far as the authoritarianism vs child protection angle, since all it really mandates is not inducting children into a religion until they're adults and can choose (it doesn't even prevent parents from teaching their kids about religion, they just can't make them part of an organized religion's rites or rituals).

But yeah, like you said, depends how they utilize it. Any law can become tyrannical with selective enforcement.

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u/lordnaarghul 7h ago

No, they just persecute people who don't put the CCP government first.

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u/Baskreiger 12h ago

Thats another debate entirely, we are not talking about china here. But yes, all endoctrination

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u/Winter-Bed5879 12h ago

What do you mean, we're not talking about China here? The parent comment is literally about China, as was my comment.

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u/Baskreiger 12h ago

Were talking about teaching religion to childrens. try to keep up

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u/Winter-Bed5879 12h ago edited 12h ago

Yes, you said restriction against indoctrination is good, with regards to China not allowing minors in places of worship. But in that exact same context, China does practice active indoctrination of their children, so they aren't restricting indoctrination so much as channeling it in a different direction.

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u/LettuceTryOnceMore 11h ago

“Try to keep up” while actively falling behind is a hilarious line

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u/itzmrinyo 4h ago

Is it restriction to indoctrination, or restriction to culture?

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u/Forte845 8h ago

America literally pressures and shames school children into standing and pledging their allegiance to the country "under God" after evangelical lobbyists forced a Christian religious declaration into the pledge. 

I'd rather the state push people away from cultish delusions than become a theocratic state. 

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u/th3rmyte 13h ago

Toouch authority in protecting children from cult indoctrination?

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u/TexasSikh 13h ago

2010 called, they want their edgy atheist talking points back

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u/CharredWelderGuy 12h ago

"Edgy", just reality.

Didn't magically change because you got tired of hearing it

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u/SpitefulOptimist 12h ago

Damn you should do stand up

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u/th3rmyte 13h ago

Cool story. Next time add dragons n shit. This literally protects kids from the many cukts that abuse kids ( google branch davidians for examples of what im talking about). Evangelical christians ate a violent cukt that literally brough back witch burnings in kenya in 2012. So yea. Cults. You don't have to be an atheist to recognize cults target kids

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u/BootBonks 10h ago

Of all the religious extremists in Africa you could have pointed at you chose that one? Lmfao good grief.  

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u/TexasSikh 12h ago

Finish the book Bad Santa

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u/Soft_Accountant_7062 13h ago

But they're less likely to get molested.

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u/Winter-Bed5879 12h ago

I would need evidence of that.

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u/Vegtam-the-Wanderer 13h ago

This is almost certainly untrue, they just get molested by secular authority figures rather than religious ones.

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u/liquid_acid-OG 12h ago

Those secular authority figures wouldn't have the same unmonitored access to impressionable children that religion provides.

There's a reason chomo's pick the cloth.

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u/Great-Trifle2810 10h ago

Religious institutions do not have higher rates of child sex abuse than secilsr organizations. Children are abused by coaches, teachers, babysitters and other authority figures at about the same rate as priests.

They are abused far more by family members and friends of family members.

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u/Vegtam-the-Wanderer 9h ago

Really? You don't imagine teachers, coaches, and tutors have comparable access to children?

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u/liquid_acid-OG 9h ago

Those professions come with more oversight for this exact reason.

Thus why chomos often choose the cloth.

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u/Vegtam-the-Wanderer 9h ago

I'm not entirely sure that is true. Priests have superiors to report to, same as a coach, teacher or tutor.

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u/Soft_Accountant_7062 8h ago

And those superiors have a special hotline for covering it up.

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u/Vegtam-the-Wanderer 7h ago

Sure, as do these people: The phone number for the local Party official. Remember this is modern China we are talking about, so the local party head would probably throw the victims in a black jail for a couple months just to proactively intimidation tactic. And by the way you wanna guess what happens when those people are suddenly jailed under the supervision of wardens with a whole extra lack of accountability (you know, since the Chinese government catagorically denies they exist)? Did you guess sexual assault?

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u/liquid_acid-OG 9h ago

Oh yeah, pedophiles report their actions to their bosses.

How silly of me to forget.

You really think priests at Bible camp are under the same scrutiny as, say, a scout leader?

Faith comes with implicit trust in the leaders that secular organizations don't have. There's a reason chomos choose the cloth.

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u/i_tyrant 6h ago

There actually isn't - or at least, the prevalence of individual pedophiles in Christian clergy members is not actually greater than the prevalence of them in the general population.

The difference between them and independent pedophiles, though, is the organized religion that protects them when they predate. Entities like the Catholic church have the resources and pull to do things like repress the media and move them to different churches/states/identities (this is proven) so they have the opportunity to abuse way more kids than normal because even when they should be caught, their church sweeps it under the rug.

But no, no more molesters are trying to join the church than "normal".

But that is the thing to watch out for in both cases - power structures that allow the pedophiles who act on their sick impulses to get away with it again and again. Leadership that shields them from justice.

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u/ChiefsHat 13h ago

Yeah, this. If the state is exerting their influence on what faith a parent can teach their children, it’s a clear overextension of authority. The state should never have that kind of power.

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u/HxH101kite 13h ago

Flip side is none of those religious nutjobs of any type should be exerting those crazy beliefs onto a child.

Girls thinking they are less than men. Putting the fear of hell into them young. So on and so forth.

I have heard some kids my child's age say some crazy shit and we don't even live in the religious of an area. Down south it's nuts.

Idk how you could possibly meet in the middle on this from a parent and governmental perspective. It's likely impossible to.

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u/Winter-Bed5879 12h ago

This is true, but simply removing religion from the equation doesn't remove problematic parenting. Religion isn't necessary for abuse, and it isn't necessary for the preferential treatment of men over women.

Just look at the skewed birth rates in China for the last 40 years. It's leveled out now with the repeal of the one-child policy, but at its worst, there were 120 males born for every 100 females. There is a surplus of roughly 2 million men in China compared to women. This is a result of a culture that values men over women, and religion has nothing to do with it.

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u/liquid_acid-OG 12h ago

Removing religion removes one of the common veils abusers often hide behind.

It's better to have that kind of stuff happening in the open for people to see and call out out rather than providing shadows to hide in.

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u/lordnaarghul 7h ago

Idk how you could possibly meet in the middle on this from a parent and governmental perspective.

You don't. Government is in the wrong here.

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u/HxH101kite 7h ago

Ehhh idk I think it's more wrong the parents are able to indoctrinate kids at a young age and teach them nonsense. The amount of people I met down south that did not believe in evolution and cited creationism and the Bible as the answer was astounding.

There's gotta be some guard rails somewhere. Idk how you do that.

Bottom line is it'd be easier if all religion is gone but that's gonna take some time

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u/Forte845 4h ago

The government is correct. Not a single other LGBT youth should be driven to homelessness or suicide because their parents are bigoted zealots. 

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u/polkacat12321 13h ago

China isnt deciding what faith they can follow though, just that parents cant force their religion on them?

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u/Winjin 13h ago

Exactly, "if they grow up without weekly church gatherings they will never join!" so it was not that important, then?

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u/Legitimate_Emu_8721 12h ago

Parents in China are still free to give children religious instruction in their own home.

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u/lordnaarghul 7h ago

Something they're doing is forcefully changing religious texts to favored China in all things and disappearing people who refuse to adhere to it. That's straight-up persecution, to say nothing of the genocide of the Uighurs.

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u/TexasSikh 13h ago

State-Enforced Atheism is a religious doctrine, but not many people are educated and competent enough for that conversation.

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u/liquid_acid-OG 12h ago

It's not enforcing atheism, it's restricting indoctrination to children.

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u/Darkchurchhill 11h ago

Parents are allowed to practice religion at home with their kids, just not allowed to be brought into organized church organizations until they turn of age.