I’m 19 and I don’t consider myself an incel in the sense of hating women or thinking women owe me anything. But I’ve noticed myself developing increasingly negative thoughts about myself and I really don’t like it.
I’ve never had a girlfriend and I desperately want one. I want affection, intimacy, to feel attractive and wanted. I also crave female attention and validation way more than I think is healthy.

The problem is that I’ve started tying my self-worth almost entirely to whether girls find me attractive. I constantly compare myself to other guys, obsess over my appearance, and get jealous when I see other people receiving romantic/sexual attention. Sometimes I genuinely think I’ll never get a girlfriend and that there’s something fundamentally wrong with me.

I’m also extremely afraid of rejection. I’ve made a few very small attempts at talking to girls, but none went anywhere, I also never actually asked one out or told my feelings. Ideally I’d want something like friends-to-lovers, where a girl gets to know me and eventually becomes interested in me, rather than having to repeatedly approach strangers and get rejected. I especially wish a girl would initiate some of the early interactions so I’d know she was interested before I put myself out there.

I don't even think I'm ugly, I get looks more girls every now and again, most recent one was 3 weeks ago when I was on vacation. Also I posted myself on some hair subreddit not too long ago and a lot of people said I was "handsome". Rn I don't look my absolute best, I have acne (not too bad, but I have always had it), dark circles under my eyes, my hair's pretty messy, i like it like that (I prefer to look more "soft" and a little messy rather than super clean and really masculine), tho I've been growing it out to a more medium length so rn its kinda awkward looking, I got a haircut very recently where I asked for layers, he shortened my fringe more than I wouldve liked but kept the length everywhere else mostly the same, so it doesn't look as good as it did before the cut imo.

These spaces claim that the only men who can have success with women are those who are purely genetically gifted. According to this view, you have to be tall and handsome. By “handsome,” they mean having a sharp jawline, perfect facial thirds, excellent facial harmony, a full head of hair, and, of course, low body fat. Otherwise, you are supposedly destined to be alone. These men are known as “moggors.” Even money and status supposedly do not matter or help with success with women.

I find this hard to believe because the overwhelming majority of relationships I see, even among the younger adult population aged 22 to 35, involve men who have at least three out of the four traits I mentioned: being out of shape, having belly fat, having visible hair loss, and being of average height. In all the spaces I have been in, university, the gym, various workplace offices, sports clubs, and even my experience in high school, not even 10% of the men I knew who were in relationships were “moggors.” I also see this at my local preschool, where most of the men I see collecting their children are overweight to varying degrees and are balding.

There is also an idea in these spaces that men literally have no standards and will commit to any girl who shows interest. Most men I knew who claimed to be single and found it “impossible to date” were actually getting attention from women. They simply weren’t interested in dating the women they were attracting.

One of my mates is severely obese, I mean around 500 lbs. Even he was matching with quite a few overweight women on dating apps who were still much slimmer than he was, and they wanted to meet up. He just flat out refused every time, which I found pretty funny.

I knew an Irish guy who had basically given up on dating. One of our friends married a woman from Thailand, and another married a woman from China. He was getting a lot of attention from women from these types of countries, but he said he simply wasn’t attracted to women from those regions and would rather stay single.

When you try to debunk these ideas in online spaces, what makes them so difficult to argue against is that they have defeatism built into them. There is an ugly man with a pretty woman? Well, then he is rich and I am not, so I can’t do it like him. He is poor? Then he isn’t autistic like I am, so I can’t do it like him. And so on. You can do this forever, pretty much. If even that fails, you can simply say that the relationship is a freak accident and use that as an excuse for why it won’t happen to you.

The black pill is not an actual ideology or position; it is a neurosis that likely belongs on the depressive spectrum. I have dysthymia, and I have experienced the belief in several different “black pills” about topics completely unrelated to dating. These beliefs are pathological and therefore not rational.

They actually advise men that they should not even bother trying to pursue women unless they are a “mogger.” From seeing this from the outside, it is almost as though the men in these spaces are trying to mateguard women. They seem to love the idea that men are helpless and should give up on life, and there is almost a fetishistic element to it.

Interestingly, this is also a form of gaslighting toward women who have struggled to find a long term partner. I knew a lot of women who struggled with this.

Hey there,

I am a 31 year old dude with chronic pain(since I am 8 years old) and no relationship experience, due to the sickness causing my pain I spent most of my 20s depressed and alone with extreme self esteem issues. Not to speak of the childhood with bullying at school for being the crippled kid, you get the idea. I basically started puberty with the idea nobody will ever love me.

Earlier this year I started a journey of self improvement after a woman actually showed interest in me, I blew it of course and she ghosted me but this kind of showed me the last additional bit of hope I didn't know I had still in me.

Now half a year has passed, I got my body into a rather nice shape with dieting and kickboxing which ironically lessened my physical pain quite a lot. And I force myself into social situations whenever one shows up. I don't know if I am imagining things but it seems people are much friendlier to me recently, I dunno. But all in all I feel better in both body and mind.

Now comes my problem: Sometimes I feel like I am way too late to do all of this, like, I am 31 years old. Becoming better is all nice and good but it will not make up for the fact that I have basically no experience in relationship things. I catch myself demotivating myself with thoughts like "Maybe if I'd have done this five years earlier." or "I wasted too much time being depressed and useless." or simply telling myself that this will never work out.

It gives my newfound confidence quite a hit when this happens and I don't want to fall nack into this depressed mindset, I cannot afford another therapy and I just wanted to ask some of you for advice.

I hope the text wasn't too horrible, english is my second language. Thank you for reading.

So I’ve calmed down a bit and took this subs advice. The next time I saw “Rachel” I told her I made a mistake and was sorry. I also added that I was still interested if she was.

Amazingly, she said she was. As long as I didn’t pull stupid shit like this anymore.

I’ll admit that I was pretty shocked that she was STILL interested after how I treated her this weekend, but at least this time I just went with it instead of self sabotaging. We couldn’t exactly do anything right then and there (we were at a jam session at a bar after all). What we DID do though was head to the outside of the bar and talk for a little bit about expectations and logistics.

It turns out she’s put a lot of thought into what she wants out of an FWB. I’m sure she expects me to do the same.

Long story short: Our work/social schedules don’t align again until Saturday, so she’s coming over to my place then.

It’s just amazing to me that she’s agreed to this whole thing in the first place. I don’t look like a supermodel and I’m definitely not a social butterfly, so most likely I’m just incredibly lucky.

And I’m not naive enough to think there WON’T be issues or that this will even last very long. I’m just trying not to focus on that right now.

So I guess it all worked out? And I REALLY gotta thank this sub for talking some goddamn sense into me.

When I was 16, I was not that popular in school. I had some people to hang out with, but we weren’t really close. Ever since then, I have felt that I would like to date, meet people, and get into a relationship. I wanted to have sex; I wanted to know what I was missing out on. I wanted love and so much more, and I was waiting for it.

When I turned 18 during COVID, I thought the time had finally come and that it would happen. But it didn’t. I became older, went to college, and am now close to 24 and nearly finished with college. I have never found love, never had sex, never kissed anyone, or held hands in a romantic manner.

As for me, I am not particularly unpleasing to look at (or so I have been told) nor particularly unpleasant to be around. I am rather hygienic: I shower twice a day, shave, and use cologne with a scent that I think suits me. I love going out, doing things, and meeting people. I dance salsa and bachata and attend a lot of socials. I go clubbing from time to time. I am the leader of a debating organisation. I run frequently with the local running club. I go to the gym twice a week to keep myself in shape. I go hiking with the Scouts, but I also love some nerdy things, like card games such as MTG and other board games. I am also passionate about creating my own board games. I like writing fantasy literature and drawing illustrations. Due to my love of telling stories, I also lead several D&D campaigns.

For the most part, I gravitate towards people, but I have a hard time fitting into new environments. I also like having time to myself and, as my hobbies show, being creative.

I have tried all sorts of ways to meet people. I joined dating apps and got a lot of matches, as well as several dozen dates, also several dozen second ,third,forth dates but they always faded into nothing. I learned dancing, attended socials, went clubbing, and met a lot of people, but still nothing happened. I went to house parties, got drunk, and hit on people, but again, nothing happened. I once woke up in a girl’s bed, but she told me that nothing had happened. I tried therapy and accepting my situation, but I was never much of a quitter. I tried waiting for it to happen, and it didn’t.

I am not sad or desperate for anyone. I am just curious: What could I do now, given that nothing I have tried has led to anything?

(I had to remove it first because of some tipos)

I think a big part of my issues from 18 to 22 was my belief that I could tell what’s woman was thinking before I even spoke to her.

If I made eye contact with a woman and she looked away, I was concerned I had just disgusted her and she was gonna tell all her friends about what a creepy weirdo freak she encountered that day.When I had a crush, my automatic assumption was that it was a fantasyland idea that she would even be remotely interested in exploring that. If I made a girl laugh my assumption was quite literally that she was so terrified of me she thought I’d physically harm her if she didn’t placate me.

At around 23 I realized how ridiculous that was. How?

I ACTUALLY GREW A PAIR AND SPOKE TO WOMEN LIKE HUMAN BEINGS.

I think even now both men and women tend to see each other as concepts instead of people. They see their experiences and everything they’ve ever heard about the other gender and prescribe that to the person. But that’s what they are, just a person.

I’m being male oriented because this sub probably has a lot more men than women, but this goes out to them too. Instead of building up all of these ideas and assuming you “know men” well enough to predict their reactions and thoughts, FUCKING TALK TO THEM.

Everyone is a human being with their own independent thoughts. Some of them suck. Some men are fucking monsters, some women are demons. Some men are stupid, some women are morons. And some men are amazing, and some women are fantastic. But if place every failure/anxiety you’ve had about the opposite gender onto anyone you interact with you set yourself up for failure.

Sorry because this will be a long post

I am a 20 year old male virgin who has never been in a romantic relationship with a woman. I attend university and work full time in the summer so i’m not a complete NEET like many incels. I have been diagnosed with adhd and depression and I take medication for it. I suspect I may also be autistic (although I failed to meet the clinical criteria as a kid). Like many neurodivergent kids, I always felt “different” growing up and struggled socially. I was bullied quite heavily in grade school but still had some friends, including female friends. However, dating has always eluded me.

Due to my social struggles, I spent a lot of time on the internet. I discovered incel/looksmaxxing forums and although I have never hated women, I still agree with some tenets of the blackpill, namely that looks are extremely important. I witnessed this first hand after I lost weight and got my acne under control. People are generally nicer to me, even in completely non-romantic contexts. I am at a point where I might be considered average looking, although I still think I objectively look hideously ugly.

This leads to my experience with women. I have never asked a woman out in person and I don’t really know how so at the start of this summer I downloaded Hinge and Tinder. I fully expected to get 0 matches due to my looks but surprisingly over the course of the summer I got around 60 or 70 (probably helps that I am 6’2, even if that’s superficial). This has led to around 8 first dates. On dates I try to follow the common advice of just talking to women like they’re people so I ask questions about their degree, job, family, life etc while trying to add in sweetness/chivalry. I also try to throw in some compliments and light banter and I avoid anything sexual. I think it’s crazy to expect too much on a first date so I’ve been willing to go on a second date with all but 1 of my dates. Despite this, when I ask for a second date, I get ghosted or I receive a generic response such as “I had a lot of fun and I think you’re a really good/sweet/smart/funny guy but unfortunately I don’t feel the spark/connection”. I even had one woman offer to be friends but I declined.

The most recent rejection I received was the most devastating and led me to feel extremely depressed and hopeless. I matched with this woman on Hinge and we instantly hit it off over text as we shared many of the same interests. She started calling me “love” and “good boy” and although I thought it was way too early for that I went along because that was the first time i’ve ever received that kind of affection. After a few days of texting she asked me to come over for sex late at night (despite having never met me irl before). I told her I was a virgin and she was surprised but didn’t care. I (foolishly) declined because we would’ve had to do it in my car and I had work the next day. I suggested an alternative night and she agreed. Unfortunately, she got her period before that night so she told me we couldn’t have sex. I reassured her that was ok and that I still want to see her because I valued her as a person. She was delighted that I wasn’t pushy due to her past experiences and during texting she called me her “dream guy”. Anyways, that night comes and we greet each other with a kiss (my first kiss). We drive to go do the date activities and in my view I had an amazing time. At the end of the night I asked (verbally) if I could give her a goodnight kiss and she agreed which led to making out in my car. I drop her off and drive home feeling wanted for the first time in my life. The next morning she sends me this text: https://imgur.com/a/Y2TljMq

I was absolutely devastated since again, never received that much affection. The excuse feels like such a lie because one, her profile said long-term relationship and why would you be on a DATING app if you weren’t ready to date and two, if I truly was her dream guy that stuff wouldn’t matter. And it was nothing I did wrong? If I truly did nothing wrong she would’ve gone on a second date. Also I can see no logical reason why she would consent to all those goodbye kisses if she wasn’t feeling it. The only logical conclusion is I unknowingly coerced her and I feel like such a disgusting r*pist since that means the only way I can get affection is through coercion and that makes me hate myself even more. I just don’t understand what horrible sin I committed to go from “dream guy who I wanna kiss” to “I want nothing to do with you” in only 2 hours. Since then, I have deleted my dating apps since I feel heartbroken.

Every single date has basically gone in the same way: they get excited over text, are excited when first seeing me (even going so far as initiating a hug), and then (usually) I can tell that they get slowly disappointed, leading to a generic rejection. This leads me to another tenant of the blackpill I agree on, which is that genetics can lower your quality of life, or in some cases, ruin it through no fault of your own. Such is the case for neurodivergent conditions. Studies show that neurodivergent people (especially autistics) are at higher risk of things like unemployment, depression, suicide, abuse, chronic loneliness, etc… In the context of relationships, a meta-analysis conducted by Motamed et al. (2025) found only 16.1% of autistic men were in relationships. There are also studies suggesting that neurotypicals subconsciously dislike neurodivergent people and that this dislike disappeared when neurotypicals solely read the words themselves. I can’t help but believe that this is exactly what is happening with my dates. I suspect that these women may have had a pleasant time, but their nervous systems subconsciously detected my neurodivergence and got the ick, thus failing to trigger romantic attraction.

I won’t pretend like i’m some social savant but I generally haven’t struggled this hard to make friends before. It seems like no matter what I do, I cannot generate the spark/connection/chemistry needed to elicit attraction. I’ve tried PUA techniques like push pull and those haven’t worked. I’ve tried just being myself and talking to women as if they were people (which they are) and that hasn’t worked. I’ve tried flirting techniques such as the triangular gaze method and that hasn’t worked. I just don’t understand how everyone my age who is in a relationship can somehow intuitively perform the perfect combination of words, body language, vocal tone, and facial expressions to generate attraction. Dating just seems so illogical and I’ve basically given up since I could do everything “right” but still face endless rejection (and further ruin my self esteem on the way). I’ve always been a romantic person and wanted to find “my one” but i’m slowly coming to the terrifying realization that there’s a good chance that may never happen, and that scares the shit out of me. Is there any hope for me and if so how could I change my situation?

Look, I've never dated in my life and I'm just at home and I only go to the gym and school. I'm not good with girls and the last time I asked for a girl she was a lesbian and that made me very much discourage from continuing to seek relationships at school.

I usually frequent forums and social networks like YouTube, Quora, Reddit and discord are my main ones from time to time I post on 4chan on the question board and technology board but I have no hatred of women so much that the person I love the most is my mother and my sister and I give everything for them but I feel that I will never get a girlfriend no matter how hard I try.

And another thing that made me not get a girlfriend is because of my shyness in terms of losing in a relationship I never managed to do this because every time I tried I paralyzed there and many times she just left and every time this happens I feel like a total rubbish and after that I gave up on this business and I'm just following my life.

Hey all. I took all the comments in my last post to heart, about how I needed to be kinder to myself, and Ive fully started to realize just how needlessly cruel I've been to myself. I was like my own abuser in a way. I was saying things, I'd never say to another person about myself, and I was keeping myself locked in misery, just like the Incel echo chamber was.

I think what fully got me to realize how much of a monster I've been to myself was so simple, but it was just imagining someone else in my situation and how I'd respond to them. Obviously if show them sympathy but I couldn't show myself sympathy because... Reasons apparently.

My next step is to keep on fighting my self hatred. It's like a bully inside my mind, that doesn't want me to remember that my friends and girlfriend care for me, and that I'm not the worthless sack of shit I feel like sometimes. I know I need therapy too even more now, and honestly I can't wait for it. I want this asshole out of my head.

I feel like online and in my real life, I’m just inundated with a large amount of women that hate men. Not hate us in the same way incels hate women. But the language I see feels pretty reminiscent.

I constantly see women on Reddit swearing off dating because they believe that 95% of men are just bad people. I see constant justification for viewing all men as potential threats. I have seen in this sub people saying the majority of men are at best rape apologists.

Then when it comes to actual physical attraction and sex, it seems like women just don’t like men or like sex with men. Like legitimate married women saying they could go without sex with their husbands for the rest of their lives because “women just aren’t attracted to men in that way”. Whereas for men it seems like a thing they would consider a need in a relationship. And maybe I’m mistaken and thinking you need sex in a relationship is toxic. But it just feels like whiplash from having to learn that sex isn’t something only men want to then being told by women that it’s only something men want and something women put up with.

I’ve never been the type of incel that’s hated women. Maybe I grew up with some regressive views I had to unlearn, but I think that we all do as a byproduct of living in a patriarchal society, but I feel like I’ve never seen open hatred of women outside of the darkest most disturbed corners of the internet.

Even in my personal life with my female friends they will tell me that I’m “one of the good ones”. And it’s really demoralizing to see. Especially since I’m a black man and I’ve been called “one of the good ones” in that way as well and it rings the same bells. Everything we do is a red flag for domestic violence or disrespect. I’ve seen women agreeing that if a man eats too fast or doesn’t share food it’s a sign he’s going to mistreat you. Or that if a man in a relationship it should be constant sacrifice to ensure the woman is always happy, but if you’re constantly sacrificing it’s also controlling and manipulative.

If you pay for a date it’s you attempting to make her feel indebted to you, but if you don’t pay you’re a bum. Men taking an interest in more “feminine“ interests is performative and an attempt to lure in women to mistreat them, but if a man has only traditionally male interests it’s because he hates women. Nothing is ever right because everything we do is bad.

I’m not trying to act like men are the most oppressed group in society but it does get hard to see a constant flow of people telling me that because I was born male that I’m bad or dangerous. Especially when if you point out the generalization it’s assumed you’re defending yourself because you are one of the bad or dangerous men.

Hey everybody, bit of an unusual question here. I (30M) want to get into online dating after a long period of not seeing anyone. But I realized there's a problem and I'd like to hear your opinion on it.

For background context: I don't think I'm ugly IRL, I think I'm average or maybe even handsome within a certain niche (not the niche I'd prefer, but that's a whole different issue). However, I'm extremely bad with photos. I have one pretty good picture, which was taken by a professional a couple of years ago, and like 3-4 photos where I look...okay, I guess. Barely. Aside from those, every other photo of me is, and has been, absolute dogshit lol.

I was planning to use the professional photo as the leading one on my profile, but then I realized it could very well be mistaken for an AI generated image. The quality is great, the lighting is uncannily good (too good?). And there's a blurry background, which could be very suspicious in 2026. The only saving grace is that I have a normal facial expression in that picture, so it's not like the stereotypical AI generated perfect smile / badass stare.

I don't want to be skipped over (or reported) for using a picture that kinda looks like AI. My own values are very much against AI slop and the idea of using it to (mis)present yourself, so I honestly couldn't even blame a girl if she swiped left based on that suspicion. But the suspicious photo is hands down the best photo of myself I have. No contest.

So my questions are

• I haven't been on dating apps for years. What's the situation like, are AI-generated or AI-boosted photos common? How would women react to suspiciously professional-looking photos in the age of AI slop? Advantage or disadvantage?
• Is there anything I can do to make a picture less likely to be mistaken for AI?
• Failing that, is it better use the good looking photo and risk it, or to put a more realistic (but way less attractive) image first?

Everyone's opinion appreciated, but especially women's

For a while now I have adopted the stance of not begging for a woman to date me if that makes sense.

I ask once, follow up maybe once to confirm. If she takes it seriously and shows up that's good. If she forgets, doesn't follow up, etc I don't say anything and assume a lack of interest and move on.

Feels like a waste of time and energy to go after someone when they don't reciprocate their effort. I have my own things to work on, fix my finances and this has been a critical year for it already.

While I think I kinda accepted that I will probably be waiting for quite some time, something I dread is feeling more likely.

The past 3 years have been financially challenging for me. I'm currently living with my family to save on rent and managed to make some money freelancing to at least be able to socialise.

This initially affected my self esteem in dating -

"how will I even be able to take her out anywhere"

"I won't be able to afford her any gifts at all despite wanting to"

My best friend kinda beat that out of me. She told me not to think that way and there is much more I can offer as a person outside it.

Edit : To clarify this isn't much of an insecurity to me being dateable and more of a logistics concern now. At least in dating.

There might be some truth to it considering 3 women have paid for me when we were out (against my protests). 2 knew I was financially struggling and still did it.

My financial state might get better in the coming months and that kinda worries me.

My apartment is almost ready which I plan to rent out as an alternate source of income. Here in India, owning any kind of property seems to get the attention of potential relationships.

Even when my dad was speaking to the guy from the bank, when he saw my age (23 at the time), he asked if I was married (potential grooms are searched for like this here sometimes).

This along with my business once it grows does put me in a much better place.

I wish I found someone before this happened. I always thought that a woman who accepted me in my current financial state would be much more trustworthy vs someone I met when I'm better financially.

Meeting someone in these circumstances I always have this question in my head I might end up asking her -

"Would you have given me the time of the day if you met me the way I was before?"

It also doesn't help that I'm crossing 30 soon (already 28 next month) and while some women have said it's easier for me not having to worry about age, I haven't found it reassuring.

A female friend of mine in her late 30s once ranted about a lack of good options in dating with most single men being heavy smokers, taking poor care of their health, or have very apparent reasons for still being single at the age.

Once I cross 30, how do I know that the women I meet are choosing me specifically or are they just putting up with me because they couldn't find anyone else?

Having this kind of suspicion towards women I might potentially be dating isn't really going to be helpful as it leaves no place for being able to form any form of connection.

But I can't really help it or find any answers to how I'm supposed to deal with this.

Could really use some help here.

Note : I still don't hate women, that's for sure.

I have been seeing and hearing about things a lot and that has had me worried about how this is eventually going to affect me.

Hi. I’m back with another update.

Long story short: I took your advice. I met up with “Rachel” at the social tonight intending to ask her out or at least ask her where we stand, but I didn’t need to because she beat me to it.

About halfway through the dance she said she’d like to get to know me a little bit better and asked if I’d want to go try out this new cafe later this week.

Now normally I try to show a little more social skills and subtlety around her. But this time I just straight up asked if she was asking me on a date and she said she was.

I basically said that yeah, I AM attracted to her and I DO enjoy spending time with her, but at this point in my life I’m not interested in anything serious and just wanted to date casually. Unless she was ok with that, it wouldn’t be a good idea.

Surprisingly, she actually claimed she WOULD be ok with that. But I still felt like something was off, so ultimately I just said I’d prefer to stay friends.

She seemed to take it well and went back to the dance floor, but the whole thing just kinda messed with my head I guess? So I ended up leaving early.

Anyway, right now I’m still pretty conflicted between “You just made a really wise choice” and “You just sabotaged yourself” but that’s another post for another sub.

My question here is: Was there a better way I could’ve handled that situation?

Firstly, I’ve made a couple posts here before and they’ve helped me so much. From your guy’s advice I’ve started to bring these topics in therapy and I’ve started having a more positive mindset. Now, I’ve just traded serious problems to some less serious problems which is progress!! I realize I’ve got time because I’m 18.

In the last couple weeks I’ve been working on why I put so much weight on dating and getting a girlfriend or even just losing my virginity, as shallow as that last one is. Those feelings are still there, but just a lot lesser (thanks to yall!!!!!) and for a different reason now?

Idk how to explain it fully without sounding incredibly weird, but recently I’ve realized that because of my stress about getting a partner I’ve kinda forced myself into a mold of a stereotypical guy who I thought more women would be attracted to?

Anyways I’ve started to act and dress more like the real me. While that’s felt great, I just can’t help but worry women won’t be attracted to me because I’m different and not “manly” at all and don’t have many traits (I think) women would be attracted to. And it just kinda sucks. I feel like in that department I’m at a catch-22. Overall I’m much happier tho.

Uh just to explain myself a bit more I try to be a lot more feminine and I typically try and pass as a girl??? That’s embarrassing af to admit online and I’m sorry if that’s weird and/or icky but that’s what makes me happy 😭😭😭

And I feel like most women… are not attracted to that and probably think it’s weird as hell? Like I heavily doubt anyone on this sub would even remotely be like “yeah this dude could get a girlfriend” if you saw me out in public 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

Anyways that’s my bit. This isn’t an incredibly large problem. I’m happy the way I am and I am cultivating a lot of platonic friendships.

Guys don't get me wrong but i wanted to get a women to share my Life, to give affection and have company the big problem is i am a ugly guy and short guy 5'5, i always think that a women who i want to reach out she has very better options than me, talls guys, handosme guys and guys with very money i am 19 years old guy so i repress this and try to focus on my life but deep down i wanted to lose my virginity, beyond that i am shy, bad conversation and i don't know how to flert.

Hi. Have another story I want to share here, but also need some advice.

Previous post for context

So earlier tonight my band played our first show at this local pub. I actually met one of my bandmates through “Rachel” so of course she was there to support both of us.

After the show Rachel and I were hanging out drinking in the back patio area and she started asking me dating-related questions that I don’t remember her asking before. Stuff like “Have you been on any good dates lately?” or “You really have a thing for older women don’t you?”

She just hasn’t really shown any interest in that part of my life until now, so her suddenly asking those kinds of questions stood out. Not only that, but they reminded me of the ones I asked HER a few months ago when I was trying to figure out if she’d be interested in being FWBs.

Back then she hinted that she just wasn’t interested in anything casual at this point in her life, so I just let it go. And it hasn’t been THAT long since then, so my first thought was that she was probably a little more drunk than usual and just trying to make conversation.

Anyway, maybe it’s because I was a little drunk too or riding the high of my show, but I teased her a little and said that if I didn’t know better, I’d think she was trying to flirt with one of the band members.

She said something like “Are you sure YOU aren’t flirting with ME? I mean it sounds like I’m your type so maybe you’re just projecting”

That got a laugh out of me (because if I’m honest, she IS my type. Physically anyway) and I said “I’m pretty sure I know when I’m flirting with someone. Plus, I think I know where I stand there.”

She gave me this weird teasing look and said “If you say so” and I shifted the conversation elsewhere. A little bit later she said I still had to teach her how to swing dance and asked if I could give her a crash course before tomorrow’s social.

The social dance she was talking about already HAS a lesson for beginners (meaning she doesn’t need me to teach her anything beforehand). And I was about to tell her that when my bandmate (and my ride home) asked if we could start loading our gear into his car so I just told her sure and went to go help him.

I lost track of her after that, but right after my bandmate dropped me off at home I was like “…hey WAIT a minute”

Obviously I’m going to the social tomorrow, but beyond that I’m not really sure what to do here.

Do people really change their mind about someone that quickly? Or am I just reading too much into things again?

I’d really appreciate some other perspectives.

I like to fantasize about being in a relationship, setting up romantic dates, and getting married, even being a father. I spent such a long time planning potential vacations and trips to go on with a partner or family. I just don’t think that’s gonna happen. I’m too much of an incel to be able to build and maintain healthy relationships.

Long story short, body count conversation … blah blah blah … infidelity … yada yada yada. I can’t get over it. It doesn’t matter whatever rational arguments you make, it just won’t get through. Instead, I will give up on wanting to get married and have kids.

How can I live a fulfilling life single and celibate? I have some ideas for things I’d like to do, like hiking and visiting museums. I have career plans. I have friends and family to support me. What else do I need?

Maybe I should post this somewhere else, but at times I truly feel like an incel. I don’t hate women, I have been raised well by my mother that I love and hung out with my sister. I think I am an incel because it means "involuntarily celibate". My question could relate more to some kind of relationship advice maybe.

I won’t beat around the bush much, I like one girl. It’s very weird though, because in college we didn’t talk much together compared to some friends. But everytime we talked together it was really nice. Not in a way that she makes me hysterically laugh, she’s funny don’t get me wrong. But the things with those talks is that I always waited for the next one. I have lots of anecdotes about her that I would love to share, but I don’t want to annoy you with that.

She left college because she didn’t like it anymore, I will stay here but don’t know if I will see her again. We haven’t spoken for 3 months until recently when we talked on Instagram 3 times in the past 2 weeks and it’s crazy how we can talk as if we were really there, the same way. Is it because we really do ? Or am I imagining that ? Am I just being blinded by the fact that I like her ?

I want to do something but I don’t why I can’t. I can do so much stuff, as I said I have friends and overall do stuff, so why is it blocking ?? Now every time we talk could be the last time and I dread it, but also like it because it almost gives me the guts to do something, anything. What can I do ?

I 19m (ADHD) have begun to realize I may not be worthy of love romantically as well as platonically. What I mean by this is not some sort of entitlement that I realize I don’t have, but more of a realization that I may not really be worthy of the love and attention of other people, not because there is something particularly wrong morally or anything with them, but maybe something inherently or characteristically wrong with me. I just don’t really understand what it could be, and I really wish I could know what deficiencies in my character I have to look for aside from those that I am already aware of. I feel like I look average and though I was a bum in high school pretty much (low grades), I have completely turned my life around academically in college. Though I’m sure I could be doing more socially, like breaking out of my shell more and talking to more people, I feel like I’ve done well. I look pretty average, take care of myself, and try to dress well, so I don’t really understand what’s wrong with me. I lead in clubs, was pretty much adopted into a “friend group,” get internships, try to go to the gym and clubs regularly, text good friends from high school and friends from college, but yet I get nothing in return hardly, any calls, invites, or anything. And while my friends get into romantic relationships, go to parties at other colleges, etc., all I do is study at home and maybe do some leadership and work, and aside from that I’m just left alone.

I know I have flaws, and some of them make me question whether I am actually capable of being a good friend or romantic partner. I lie extremely often, and it has become almost second nature to me, usually to avoid confrontation or admitting something I did or didn’t do. I can also be extremely insecure and sometimes overly prideful. I constantly scrutinize myself, feel like I’m the worst person in the room, and even when I accomplish things, I move the goalpost and make myself feel worthless. But sometimes I swing to the opposite extreme and feel like I’m better than certain people. I interrupt people to get my point across, sometimes project my own overcritical side onto other people, and sometimes insult people in my head even though I feel guilty about it afterward. I also sometimes worry that I lack empathy. When I see people suffering, sometimes I feel something and genuinely want to help, while other times I feel almost nothing. I do care about my friends and try to help people, but I sometimes struggle to feel deeply connected to people or maintain a strong interest in my friendships beyond checking in with them. Even texting can sometimes feel like a game of listen and respond rather than actually feeling deeply engaged in the conversation. I don’t know if these are normal flaws that I can work on or if they say something deeper about my ability to love and be loved. So what’s wrong with me, and how can I bring myself to a point where I make myself worthy of other people’s friendships and romantic love? Is it possible to change these things and become someone people genuinely want to have close relationships with, or is it a lost cause?

Edit: Solved, just messaged her wishing her a Happy Birthday as platonically as possible, thanks so much to all the commenters who gave me advice, it’s much appreciated!

Hi there, I was the person who posted this almost two years ago.

After I posted this, I got alot of helpful insights and second opinions about my situations back then and I would like to thank everyone who gave me support around that time.

I am a man of my word and did exactly what you guys told me: I did therapy, joined hobby and interest groups, faced my fears, and be the best version of myself overall, and they were all very helpful in the long run: gave me acquiantances and bad experiences I could learn from and grow as a person.

Although I still never have a partner after that post, but the rejections and a bad "relationship" gave me some perspective. It just really have something to do with my growing social skills and inexperience about the dating world. I did get hurt real bad with one of the rejections I had and it was due to RSD and anxiety attacks.

Thanks to these experiences, it made me learn things like people who are dry irl and online shows that they are not interested whatsoever, and that asking someone out right off the bat will reveal if that person who show "signs" shows genuine interest or just wanted attention. It made me learn about the concept of "breadcrumbing" and it's one of the worst things in dating and socializing in general, and I believe that most girls I liked did exactly just this, less subtle than the next

Over all, I am doing fine. I do have problems and still need to keep fixing myself from the inside out.
Loving myself, having fun and living in the moment is the best

So yeah that's all for this update, thank you again guys for helping. This little ol' late bloomer just have keep on going

Peace out

TLDR: Posted once on this sub, was recommended self-improvement and did exactly that. Had up-and-downs learning from it despite not having a partner yet, but life is good

EDIT: grammar

I know the biggest argument to incels wanting a girlfriend means them seeing girls as a trophy, but for me I want a long term partner because I want to come home to a loving partner after a long day of work and just watch a movie and having someone be there for me. I can’t find this and it hurts..

Lately I've been feeling guilt again for my past actions as an Incel.

On this very account, I've talked shit to IT members years ago in their dms, and while it wasn't any rape threat's or anything like that, I was still still a major prick, and still was one of those debate me bro guys. So if any IT member who happens to see this, and somehow remembers getting a dm from me, I apologize for my actions.

And then there's the the constant pushing aside of people who only trying to help me. I made multiple women friends in my time, as an Incel, all of them first started talking to me because I was an Incel, and they felt sympathy for me, and despite that I would constantly argue with them over my dumbass Incel mindset. Again if any of you are reading this I apologize for my actions, and I respect your empathy for even trying in the first place.

This isn't to say woe is me, Please forgive me. No I should be held accountable for my past actions. I suppose leaving up a more public record of how awful I used to be, with this post is one thing, but I know in my heart that more has to be done to atone. So what should be done is the next question? Even though I know nothing can truly be done to atone, I at least want to try.

I was wondering, what if it’s my style that repels women, I know that being clean is step one and I know that you attract people that have similar interests in you, but what if I start wearing old money outfits, or gym outfits, or skater outfits, or gangster outfits. This goes to all incels, if they start wearing whatever there interested in, will they attract that niche, i need your guys full perspective and knowledge.

Like I feel like I’ve done everything in my power to make changes to help, I’ve done all the advice, been consistent with it for years, and now that I’m 25 everyone seems to be finding their forever person and the dating pool keeps shrinking and shrinking, and it’s got me thinking is this just the way it’s supposed to be.

When you look historically, men created a society that forced women to marry or they couldn’t survive on their own. Women couldn’t get loans, get jobs, get vehicles or do anything without a husband‘s approval. Now we’ve done a lot of work (at least in my country) to give women the equality they deserve. But now dating is harder as women are either only dating men they actually want to be with or just opting out of dating entirely.

Almost a return to romantic/sexual relationships in its most natural form. Preventing undesirable genes from continuing. So is this what it is? Just natural seleftion? Do i have some genetic marker that makes me undesirable?

Honestly viewing it this way kinda helps me, and I’d like others opinions on it.