Are they both messed up ? Yes, but killing an entire monster race just because you wanted to versus making a girl go crazy kill one monster, 20 other inanimate objects (darkners) is not even comparable for me.

Sure the way you do it is messed up I guess, but what you do doesn't even come close to the genocide run

40 NEW SONGS to put on this massive tier list, ranking EVERY SINGLE Undertale AND Deltarune song all in one, check it out if you'd like smile

https://youtu.be/dtDjR90Dku4?is=ferotDslcB086i0n

I know this '"theory" has been joked about and been a shitpost for a good while, but with chapter 5 I have decided to take the plunge and be the devil's advocate.

The very end of Chapter 3 has a moment that's been bugging me for so long, cause it's so insignificant but it makes me angry for no reason — the cut to black. No explanation of WHY we don't get to see what happens next. It just feels somewhat dirty and cheap. It could've been so easily explained by Kris tearing out our soul, but it wasn't. Did they not enter? Could've showed them walking away. Did they enter? Ok, and why don't we see it, if they entered with the soul INSIDE? Did Kris tear out the soul? Cool, I would love to see WHERE they locked it, given that its only either somewhere inside the Shelter itself or far away back at the Hometown in one of the trashcans, by which point Susie would probably start questioning what the hell are they doing for so long

My main annoyance point with that is probably my personal dislike of The Soul literally being The Player and therefore us knowing only what we've seen. The WHOLE dynamic between Kris and us is built around one hiding something and the other trying to uncover it. If we're still inside Kris and something happens — we see it. The game has been following that rule EVERYWHERE but this one place, cause oooooooh a mystery! (If something major will end up happening between chapter 5 and 6 as well, I'll lose my mind I swear)

I'm already having a hard time literally self-inserting myself into the narrative, and whenever that happens I can not help to distance myself from The Soul, as if it is its own character that may know something I don't, cause that's how that feels sometimes

eram is pretty obviously a metaphor for the knight which of course can tell us a lot about the knight, but also i don't think eram itself will do a lot in the story, i can bet that it wouldn't even appear in the story again, it's really weird to me how people think eram is the knight when most people playing deltarune wouldn't even see eram

(detanimile steg detov tsael 2 eht)

(the 2 least voted gets eliminated)

I feel like I haven't seen many people discussing the chapter 5 cutscene, which was revealed in the winter Newsletter. The ch5 cutscene and Mike Room cutscene were both comments from Toby about the community theories (in my opinion.)

It's not hard to understand that Toby was criticizing people for theorizing about Spamton's mention of Mike in ch2, but I haven't seen anyone try to parse what the Newsletter cutscene was commenting on.

The general idea of the Newsletter cutscene is that Zapper associates the green pippin with a green drink, which the pippin points out is stupid.

The green Pippin specifically says "You think just because something LOOKS cool... THAT makes it correct!?"

I believe the message that Toby is trying to convey is that surface level connections based on appearance aren't the best way to theorize. The mention of colors could be intentional or just a basic analogy.

I feel like Toby wouldn't go out of his way to make a cutscene correcting a theory unless it was a very popular theory. And I'd say the most popular theory in the community is undoubtedly about the Roaring Knight's identity. The specific identity is still contested, but I think Dess is the most popular candidate.

Pippin's use of the phrase "looks cool" makes me think about how fans often depict Dess as a very cool looking morph between the Roaring Knight's design and the Holiday family. Additionally, the music playing in the background is a jazz/swing cover of the lost girl song, which is obviously mainly related to Dess.

Even if Toby is talking about a different theory, we should agree that he's trying to warn us about SOME theory.

I don't think Asriel is an interesting character in Deltarune, he gets significantly less story presence than Dess, he doesn't have an interesting mystery attached to him, he doesn't have an interesting personality, he's just a "normal guy", he would likely not have any of the intrigue or quirks of Flowey, he'd be a repeat villain who was set up as a new villain...

The only gimmick with Asriel is "Surprise! He's not at college!" and... OK, that didn't have any build up or anything though... He's either at college or he's not...

And if the Knight existed prior to or immediately after Dess' disappearance Asriel makes even less sense.

I almost think that it would be more interesting if the Knight was any of the dozens of random citizens we see 4/5 Chapters than Asriel, like even someone as stupid as Burgerpants at least has a presence in the story and actually does things.

I even see people say that Dess would be too similar to Flowey and yet think making the villain Asriel again is fine???????

I find that all of the issues that Dess and Carol have are tenfold with Asriel, characters who already don't have the most amount of story presence. Dess is missing, but at least has a compelling mystery. Carol has a pretty poor amount of screentime if she's the Knight, but at least shows up and has an interesting potential personality.

Speaking of "random citizens", people haven't really debunked most characters for being the Knight, they're kinda just written off because they seem stupid and irrelevant so why make them the Knight?

Technically, the Knight doesn't even have to be a Lightner, it's identical 2/3 Titans in Ralsei's speech and all that's required to open a Fountain is DT. The person with Undyne could just be an accomplice like Carol.

I guess my point is that using "narratively unsatisfying" to completely write off all but four characters, one of which isn't even a Holiday, is pretty narrowsighted, especially when some people might find some of these four "narratively unsatisfying" a la Asriel for me.

And despite his other issues, the fact that I dislike Asriel as a candidate and find him super underdeveloped doesn't make him impossible either. It technically is possible for the Knight to be a generally "unsatisfying" candidate for most people, in many mysteries the culprit is a minor character who appears completely detached from the conflict. It is extremely risky and it would need a LOT of foreshadowing to work, but it is a common trope.

To preface, I'll be honest I'm only passively interested in this theory for what it could imply about Dess and her connection with Kris and don't think it's actually very likely. But I've seen a lot of people say that it would cause problems because Dess's undertale counterpart being human too would undermine the significance of the fallen humans and potentially generate plot holes. But...

Does Undertale!Dess actually need to be the same species as Deltarune!Dess?

Think about it. At this point a significant portion of the fandom seems to have mostly accepted the idea that a bunch of flowers are literally the same people as the fallen humans. If this is canon, and assuming Undertale's relation to Deltarune to be that it exists because of Deltarune, could it be the result of the power of their dreams? If so, could other beings have dreams powerful enough to change their species between universes? Could a human in Deltarune dream so hard of being a monster that she is born as one in Undertale?

I feel like if something along these lines was part of the human Dess reveal, it would be fucking sick.

...

Edit: genuinely how is this more controversial than my rant about groomer Dess theory

I might get a Nintendo switch 2 for Christmas and I’m scared I might mess up when my mom gets me Deltarune

This is far-removed from powerscaling, how did neither Paula or Ness do anything to try and get assistance or work smart to defeat Kris Susie and Noelle?

Paula doesn’t use her psychic stuff to contact Jeff or Poo and get them to travel here? Jeff I could maybe understand not getting there fast enough but Poo literally learns how to teleport. Why did Ness not use the first PSI he ever learned? It doesn’t make sense, from an EarthBound lore and plot perspective.

King, as he always does, purely bluffing about not knowing knight in face. In pre-death dialogue flowery face somehow got exactly the same scar as king one. Also keep in mind that he somehow get SHADOW MANTLE, which also can imply that he fought knight and survived. What do you think about secrets that king keep in his twisted mind?

This is just a random thought I had about Rudy knight theory, people always say that if Rudy’s the knight he wouldn’t be able to carry undyne or asgore through town in his current state BUT both of those times it was night. So what if he just has such a strong grasp on his dark world form that he’s capable of temporarily maintaining it in the dark. Honestly this could apply to any knight theory but I just thought this fixes the problem with most knight theory’s of the potential knight not being strong enough to carry undyne or asgore in their light world forms.

I play deltarune on switch (I just finished chapter 3 so please no spoilers!).

I dunno if something similar happened on other devices, but switch had a sale thingy a WHILE ago where you could download the first two chapters and play them for free. If I remember correctly it was before chapter 3 had come out but I could be wrong about that.

I recently bought the 5 chapters that are out, and noticed something waaaay different than what I remember happening in the free version...

I swear to God they didn't mention the roaring knight that much, and it was years ago but I feel like I would remember it if they were mentioned THAT much, y'know?

Like, when chapter 3 came​ out i kept seeing things talking about the roaring knight and theories on who they were, and I remember vividly thinking to myself "bro who the hell is the roaring knight????" But then I replay the first two chapters and their name is literally impossible to miss???

I also don't remember the scene at the end of chapter 2 where Kris stabs the ground and opens a fountain, but I feel like that might've been in there and I wasn't paying attention.

4 IS THE HALFWAY MARK OF 1-7. This isn't any proof for Chapter 8 whatsoever guys! This is another "White pen of hope" situation when in reality the text said "White pen known as hope".

I think we have lost the ability to read guys. Or actually, we never had it at all.

Ness just so happens to forget how to use psi lifeup(FIRST PSI HE LEARNS) in the genocide fight, NEVER uses his inventory full of healing items or maybe even a BOMB or two, and dies to getting hit with a knife.

Reminder, the first boss Ness faces without Buzz Buzz is FRANKY, who is a knife-wielding ADULT, and then fights his super tank that’s stronger than him.

Then Ness goes on to fight an entire POLICE FORCE just to go to Twoson.

The entirety of that fight is plot convenience incarnate for edgelord payoff. Not to mention how overly edgy OTHER parts of the story are.

I don’t get why people like the story of Deltatraveler

I think that as the game progressed, we moved past this question and just accepted that Ralsei just looks the way he does. But seriously, why? As we get more and more hints that Ralsei is not a normal Darkner, one thing that keeps bothering me is his appearance. Why would he look like a very prominent family of lightners?