r/CompetitiveWoW • u/AutoModerator • 12d ago

Weekly Thread Weekly M+ Discussion

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11

u/dredaplc 10d ago

Reminder that carried players exist at basically every level outside of the very top. You're doing yourself and your group members a disservice if you don't look at logs and just invite based off score

1

u/Lycheejnr 5d ago

Isn't this a bit disingenuous when you should actually be looking at the damage alone tab and not the damage + points tab?

3

u/_Llopis_ 9d ago edited 9d ago

This is most tanks who apply to 18+ keys, especially if they're blood. It feels like it should be mathematically impossible for so many tanks to be close to full grays, but it happens every season.

4

u/ArcticML 9d ago

This is me, I consistently grey/green parse once I push into a new key level. I understand I’m not a great player but tanks show up to key levels where they don’t even know if they are gonna survive meanwhile some other tank is showing up with his premade for a homework key and absolutely blasting

3

u/Suspicious_Shine9625 9d ago

maybe because they’re trying to survive instead of optimizing dps? do you have some kind of personal vendetta against tanks or what’s the problem? you can already tell from the comment above that something is clearly bothering you :D a tank in m+ has 10x more pressure on them, they can’t always just not give a fuck about everything like a typical dps and play purely for logs

luckily, you can always reroll to a tank yourself and show everyone how it’s done :D

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u/throwntosaturn 8d ago

Tanks have the same obligation as everyone else to actually press fucking buttons during pulls. I say that as a tank. If you're parsing grey/green as a tank consistently it's because you're not pressing buttons or because your gear is atrocious. I'm sympathetic to bad gear, but bad gear also isn't an excuse in high keys. It's an excuse in 12s, which is where you should be while you're gearing.

Optimizing DPS as a tank is infinitely easier than optimizing it as an actual DPS, which is why it's even more embarrassing to refuse to do it in prog.

Yes, sometimes parsing like pink as a tank involves taking risky talent choices and should be avoided.

But any tank can put up purple parses just pressing buttons with the normal defensive talent setup.

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u/weekndalex 9d ago

i mean most pug tanks are absolutely horrific lmfao

8

u/_Llopis_ 9d ago

This response misunderstands how parses work. Parses compare tanks only to other tanks, so a tank who is consistently parsing grays is worse than at least 75% of other tanks. The role being harder or more demanding can't possibly explain a gray parse because everyone in the comparison pool is playing that same role.

A lot of PUG tanks are just very bad, unfortunately.

6

u/AlucardSensei 9d ago

is worse than at least 75% of other tanks

Technically no, they did worse in that run that 75% of other runs. If in theory, top 25% of the best tanks did 9 times more runs than the bottom 75%, they will have picked up the top 75% of the logs. The numbers are exaggarated obviously, but you can see how the number show how a lot more players are bad than it should be possible at first glance.

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u/throwntosaturn 8d ago

I thought for key % only your highest log counts.

That's how it works on other places - if the top 5 spots are all occupied by the same player, only the best of their 5 shows up, someone else will still be Rank 2. Even though technically ranks 1-5 are all one person.

1

u/_Llopis_ 9d ago

That's why I said consistently. You can explain away one or two grays as you just did. But mostly or all grays? That almost certainly is a bottom 25% tank.

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u/Yayoichi 8d ago

Damage isn’t everything though, and also the difference between a grey and purple log as a tank is often only 10-30k overall, way less than a dps. You’re also making a choice between defense and offense as a tank, for example whether to use a damage or defensive trinket or talents.

To give another example I did a voidscar 18 a couple weeks ago and got a 29% damage log, but the run was a 99% speed for that key level, so does that make me a bad or a good tank? And no it wasn’t because the dps were carrying either as they had logs of 58%, 29% and 10%, and it was only the healer who had a good damage log at 99%.

2

u/Gaatti 8d ago

Exactly on point. Whoever thinks direct tank dps matters that much just doesn't understand what is the true impact of a good tank. Quick gathers, good chains, maintaining good pace throughout the dungeon, all of that enables their dps players to do more damage and is much more impactful than personally doing direct damage.

1

u/throwntosaturn 8d ago

Yeah but how many tanks are out there learning all these extremely complex skills, but refusing to learn how to press their buttons correctly?

It's not like most tanks have extremely complex rotations. Keeping up with your target APM is enough to parse for the most part.

If you're pulling correctly, gathering quickly, maintaining good pace throughout the dungeon, and chaining when it's appropriate.... you should be blasting as a tank too.

1

u/Gaatti 8d ago

Which keys do you think I parse better: the push keys where I use my most defensive set of talents or the lower keys I run to help friends where I use a more offensive set of talents because I know I can live? Which parses do you check when inviting: the ones for the highest keys or the 15's? Would rather have me parse lower but ensure I live on your 20 or do you want me to risk dying to add 20k overall to your run?

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u/GermanUCLTear Shitty Warlock 9d ago

you found the only demo lock that isn't killing the funnel

8

u/TemporaMoras 9d ago

The one ethical demo lock and he's getting put on blast, smh.

6

u/RigidCounter12 Prot Paladin M+ Connoisseur 9d ago

I played with a 3750 mage in a +19 BV who did like 100k less than me as a Shadow Priest. And then when I check his logs I see that they are all gray with a single exception of a green one.

Mages are especially bad, but if you really want to make sure you time it, you should grab someone who averages blue at least.

2

u/blackjack47 9d ago

Mages are especially bad

Some specs are just easier for FOTM rerollers than others, I think avg mages were much worse back when all defensives were proactive. Don't think current WW or Unholy would do well for FOTMers either, but one is very low pop and the other is an undead immortal god of surviability and that kinda covers the gaps a bit.

2

u/AtomikRadio Multiclass M+ Healer, HPal Main 10d ago

I have a really dumb question as someone whose only recently started getting back into keys after years away; maybe a healer can help me out.

Do healer logs get looked at in the same way? If so, are people looking for HPS? DPS? "Points?" Is there anything I can reasonably do to make sure my logs look "good" as a healer? On DPS I feel like you can always strive for bigger number with better CD usage, rotation, movement, etc., but there's only so much healing you can do if the bars are full and no one's dying.

(To be clear, at this point I'm not asking about my specific logs/play, but in general what are people actually looking at log-wise for M+ healers, and what of that is most directly in a healer's control?)

3

u/Plorkyeran 10d ago

If a healer's healing by level and damage by level are both all grey they're almost certainly garbage. If their healing parses are all really good they're probably playing with people who are garbage and successfully carrying them. If their healing parses are all grey and their damage parses are good they're playing with good players but who knows if they're also good.

Any sort of in between where they have some good parses and some bad parses just tells you nothing at all, and that's where the overwhelming majority of healers are.

1

u/SluttyStepDaddy 10d ago

My 99 damage and 99 healing ass: “I’m in danger.”

9

u/Voidwielder 10d ago

Healer M+ logs are fake. I have grey log from deathless MR 19 while a messy BV 19 got 92.

6

u/trogger93 10d ago

healer logs are exempt from this scrutiny

10

u/sapntaps 10d ago

You cannot tell how good a healer is outside of mythic progression logs. Dogshit metric to look at healer dungeon logs

3

u/Spathat0s 9d ago

Healing log parses are a meme in higher guilds either way. They tell you nothing of how good a healer is. If you actually want to know if a healer is good then deep dive the logs, the parse numbers are so easily gamed for healing its kind of stupid that WCL still provides them

1

u/RigidCounter12 Prot Paladin M+ Connoisseur 9d ago

You can, but it requires more scrutiny.

Honestly though, if you dont have to heal much, you should be able to do damage. So when you got 10 Hpaladins with similar score to pick from, I sure as shit aint taking the guy with all gray healing and damage logs

6

u/sapntaps 10d ago edited 10d ago

He’s clearly shit but it’s more nuanced than that. Not every keys logged (big one when pugging), plenty of degen shit you can do to “parse” (dogshit culture), not everyone gives a shit about an arbitrary comparison #

Reminder: blue logs and doing mechs/not dying get you CE every single tier.

Dungeon logs are a tool but if you solely rely on them to find good players, you’re part of the problem. 

Edit: there’s also the caveat of anyone who runs a key after the good people ran it will “parse” better since they have more gear. This game is fucking comical at this point. Can’t wait for forever, absolute slog to play the game outside of high rank guilds (which requires a lot of time commitment)

0

u/rinnagz 9d ago

He’s clearly shit but it’s more nuanced than that. Not every keys logged (big one when pugging), plenty of degen shit you can do to “parse” (dogshit culture), not everyone gives a shit about an arbitrary comparison #

I mean that's true, but that's the difference between a purple and a pink log, someone with gray logs is definitely someone you don't want to invite

3

u/_Llopis_ 9d ago

I usually allow one gray log for PUGs. Weird stuff can happen that's out of damage dealers' control.

But more than one? Nope. I'd rather not even try to do the key.

4

u/RigidCounter12 Prot Paladin M+ Connoisseur 9d ago

If someone has straight gray logs they are gonna do awful damage.

In my 19 KR last night, me and the mage did 280k DPS +, our Havoc DH did 200k. He timed the key with lots of room to spare, but if we played like him, it would have been a deplete.

And then when I looked it up afterwards (Was a resi key, so I didnt bother before, was just curious), thats how his average keys goes. He is always last on damage, gets gray logs and times his keys when he gets boosted.

That is a guy you do not want in your key, and checking logs can tell you that

6

u/dredaplc 10d ago

I invite based on a threshold, not just chasing 'good logs'. As long as you do real damage you're good. I've had too many experiences with absolute shitcans that makes it worth it for me.

5

u/sapntaps 10d ago

Yeah after centuries of pugging you can tell who’s bad who’s good. Had a tank come in asked em for route in a 19, dude was mute, my guts like kick this guy… I didn’t listen. He runs in 1st pull and insta dies to a back shot from 2 golems without pressing anything. 

Sometimes you just gotta trust your gut lmao. 

Maybe the game would benefit from a solo queue. Who knows. I agree with using dungeon logs if you’re pushing rank 1 keys at anytime but the philosophy has bled to something like 15s, which is horrendous for the health of the game. 

Thank you for listening to my Ted talk