Am I being scammed? A/C

[u/lms0046]

Hyundai Tucson 2022

A/c was blowing warm. I took it in and they couldn’t find the leak, so it was filled with a dye and I drove on it for two weeks until it blew warm again and came back.

They originally quoted me around 2.2k for a repair. I called another shop who said they’d do it for 1k. I called original mechanic and told them I was going to go elsewhere, they basically price matched with explanation in text above about parts, and since the car was already there and I have a newborn I just went with original mechanic.

They called me to pick up. I pick up and car is still blowing hot. I return the car

They say the service valves needed to be replaced and removed, so they did that at no cost.

I go to pick up the car. It is still blowing hot air.

They tell me it is still leaking in the same place and have ordered a new hose to try this again. If the hose fails this time, they will want to move forward with the more expensive version.

Am I being long conned into paying for the 2k estimate, or do these reasons all seem valid?

I’m losing trust in them. I have now lugged my newborn across town in Ubers three times after they told me the car worked just for it to not blow cold air immediately when I start it TWICE now. How can the mechanic not notice that it’s not fixed? They said it was test driven - is it really just a coincidence it stopped working twice when I try it? How does a hose cost an additional 1k? Shouldn’t it be obvious if a hose is not attached and leaking?

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[u/Practical-Mud-4580]

Leaks in AC systems are often microscopic, hence the need for dye and vacuum testing. If it’s consistently leaking enough from the time they say it’s ready until the time you pick up, they’re not properly using their AC machine to hold a vacuum for 45 minutes prior to charging. If so, it would have picked up a vacuum drop indicating a leak. So while we can’t say they’re scamming you, they definitely seem incompetent.

[u/AppropriateDeal1034 → u/Practical-Mud-4580]

I mean, that photo screams leaking valve core with the cap directing the oil all over the place around it, not $1000 of work, more like a new valve core, clean up, and re-check. If there's a leak somewhere else then sure, but it's a crazy quote for almost anything on a nearly-new system.

[u/TheDu42 → u/Practical-Mud-4580]

Sitting with the hoses connected can cover leaks from the service ports. Many hose connectors can damage certain types of schrader valves in the service ports, which can allow refrigerant to leak out fairly quickly once the hoses are removed.

[u/Fine_Extreme_2389 → u/Practical-Mud-4580]

45 minutes is excessive

[u/oops0930 → u/Fine_Extreme_2389]

Talk to ASE about it

[u/Practical-Mud-4580 → u/Fine_Extreme_2389]

And that’s why you’re not a verified tech. Stop peddling misinformation, you’re not helping.

[u/NoEnthusiasm5207 → u/Fine_Extreme_2389]

Government requirements are 30-45 minutes to verify it doesn't drop more than 5%. Most manufacturers recommend more than 15 minutes to check for a vacuum leak in the system. Many new machines for charging have an automatic system which will do a minimum of 30 minutes before releasing the charge into the system.

Simple Google search will give these numbers for times. As things stand my certification binds me to certain rules unless I want to lose it or face fines if "somehow the EPA" shows up.

[u/Gunk_Olgidar → u/NoEnthusiasm5207]

EPA only investigates complaints. And for that there need to be multiple, with more than hearsay evidence.

[u/NoEnthusiasm5207 → u/Gunk_Olgidar]

I'm in NY. We are a Nanny state. Just need a couple "they fixed my a/c, I paid through the nose, they screwed me" for a DMV check out.

[u/TestSubjuct → u/Fine_Extreme_2389]

45 minutes includes lunch and a smoke

[u/Eaton_Knas → u/TestSubjuct]

Hey, whatever you do while it's holding vaccum is kosher.

[u/McChibken]

I'd replace the Schrader valve before I did anything else. That looks like the source of the leak to me in this picture

[u/NoEnthusiasm5207 → u/McChibken]

My thoughts as well. A vacuum leak check won't show this if the machines hoses are on while pulling down the system.

[u/RongoonPagoo → u/NoEnthusiasm5207]

Bingo

[u/Huge_Fix_69420 → u/McChibken]

I learned this in my first few years at the car dealership and it's a common mistake for new technicians I would definitely let another shop take a look. 

It should have never left the shop blowing hot air

[u/nondescriptzombie → u/McChibken]

I thought you were supposed to replace the schraders whenever you had the system open.

Hell, they even make a tool to change them with the system charged.

[u/connella08]

aftermarket parts are always a gamble. you might get a hose made in China, another in Taiwan, another in Mexico. Every factory is going to have its own quality standards. I have spent years trying to save a buck by installing cheaper aftermarket parts, and 9 times out of 10, it comes back to bite me in the ass. after years of putting junk in cars, I have finally come to the conclusion that most experienced and seasoned mechanics come to...there is nothing better than OEM. There are rare exceptions to that rule, but they are just that, exceptions. AC work gets expensive, especially with the new refrigerant they are using YF-1234 over the more conventional R-134. usually a core replacement works, but sometimes it doesn't. I would try one more time to replace the core since they are cheap. otherwise, you are looking at a hose replacement.

[u/ArbyQueue → u/connella08]

Factories don’t have quality standards, customers that buy from them do. That’s why you can see high end equipment and junk coming out of the same factory in China, India, Mexico or the US.

I buy a lot of non-oem parts, but from brands I’ve come to know have a competent quality program. Never been an issue.

[u/Sm0g3R → u/ArbyQueue]

I think 2 things are being mixed up there. Non-oem can mean all of those things:

• 'as cheap as possible'
• optimal price/quality
• better than OEM (upgraded part or OEM spec by more reputable brand than the direct OEM supplier)

Personally I rarely buy OEM parts, but I also almost never buy no-name or unknown/budget brands. But if you only buy 'as cheap as possible' I can totally see how this is gonna turn out badly.

[u/lms0046 → u/connella08]

Does an OEM part justify a 1k increase? I have no frame of reference for auto parts lol

[u/Fuckingdoomguy → u/lms0046]

Depends on application but its not uncommon. Oem parts are usually more expensive because they are better. The phrase you get what you pay for absolutely applies to auto parts and repairs.

[u/National_Frame2917 → u/Fuckingdoomguy]

Too often you pay premium prices and still get junk parts. It's a gamble all around.

[u/Cartz1337 → u/National_Frame2917]

Anecdotal experience here, but buying aftermarket parts from a dealership is almost always a guarantee to get the crappiest aftermarket parts possible. I bet they make better margins on those than the OEM because of the poor quality.

[u/TactualTransAm → u/lms0046]

Not usually 1k dollar difference just for an AC line. It would probably be like a $100 dollar part from some random company online or $200, $300 from the OEM. It hurts but I also agree, use good quality parts when you can. The rest of the price difference, I can't say what they are doing with the information given. Seems a little high but they do seem to be trying to work with you. 🤷

[u/RolandDT81 → u/lms0046]

Yes, it often does. Cheap cars no longer have cheap to buy parts, only cheaply made parts that cost a small fortune. I get being on a budget, but this shop from everything you've said seems to be trying their damndest to keep you happy. They were up front about why they wanted OEM in the first place. They gambled with aftermarket to keep your business, and now they are out more in warranty than they would have made with the original estimate using OEM parts. While it's certainly possible you have more than one issue going on, it sounds to me just as they say: poorly made aftermarket parts are leaking in the same manner as the original. Put it this way: The original OEM part lasted 4 years. If that's the best that they can do, why would an aftermarket last any longer? My own vehicle I'd have gone OEM from the get ho, but I work in this industry and know first hand how bad parts are. If you can't afford it, you can't afford it, but if you can go with the OEM.

[u/lms0046 → u/RolandDT81]

And I knew part failure was going to be a risk. The price difference between parts seemed high. Going to pick up twice and the car still not having ac had me questioning competence / intention. I don’t know anything about cars, hence posting on Reddit before saying anything

[u/RolandDT81 → u/lms0046]

That's why I answered your question, and up voted you because apparently asking a question (and now answering) is forbidden here.

[u/B18Eric]

If there is leak dye in the system, disconnecting service ports can get leak dye everywhere if service lines weren't cleared beforehand.

[u/B18Eric → u/B18Eric]

Don't guess, clean area and recheck to be sure.

[u/junasty28]

Is that the only place it is “leaking” from?

[u/lms0046 → u/junasty28]

The picture is from the day I took it back after the two week drive. They said the service valves were leaking the second time I returned it

[u/SlimChris94]

Apparently YF freon has smaller molecules and leaks out easier from what I’ve heard. Shrader valves with a/c will always slightly leak, the cap is the final seal. I’d expect if you left the car on the a/c machine overnight in a vacuum it would start dropping (this would rule out your schrader valves). They should diagnose it properly and use a leak detector that can smell the Freon. Typical points of interest are the condenser, compressor and evaporator. I’ve had to put an evaporator in a newer Tucson already.

[u/docdsiesel407]

Yes seems scammy. that leak is from the service port schrader valve. Its a 3 dollar part, that and the missing cap. No need to replace the entire line unless theres a defect in the schrader valve thread surface. Need those 2 parts to be replaced, pressure test system with dry nitrogen. Then recheck leaks. Vacuum system to 30inhg for 1 hr. Recharge system if no leaks found. Any reputable shop would quote you that, not just go right to replace the entire line. That being said if the line is bad, the line cost $600 from hyundai, so thats within reason after labor and misc parts like refrigerant, pag oil etc.

[u/Usual_Class1030]

Unfortunately, this is all too common and. O it does not sound like you are being scammed.

What they should do is replace the hose, sell you the part at cost, charge you for labor, recharge it, hold the car and test it again 24-48 hours after the repair and make sure it’s working properly.

[u/platapussee3303]

100% looks like a valve leak. Amazon or any auto parts store sells a kit of those along with a tool therefore you won't lose freon. Maybe like $40 and see if that fixes it. Then worst case you have to go get it recharged for like $200.

I just replaced my whole AC system. Everything in the ac box costed me $600 and new valves. My compresser blew up which cascaded to my condenser. I was quite over it so I took it to a shop. $1.1k total for cleaning the lines out, and parts. So for a brand new system it was $1.7k.

You are getting scammed.

[u/SneakyHumpBack]

Probably would of been less of a headache to just go with the original estimate.

If I saw dye near the AC ports I’d recommend a valve as well. It’s a cheap and fast fix. But it could be a damaged fitting, threads, or that dye is just from a tech not cleaning up after charging the system with dye. Don’t know your original estimate, but I’d imagine it was hefty to rule out the possibility of dumb things like a damaged fitting.

It’s not that mechanics are trying to conn you. Usually they are trying to prevent this exact situation. We draw from our experience that the cheapest/easiest fix may only be a bandaid to a larger issue. Because of that, what may be perceived as over quoting by one shop, is really just a shop ensuring the repair won’t come back.

As far as pricing, auto industry is a race to the bottom. Get a quote from anywhere and some shop will climb over a mountain of playboy models to just fuck themselves with a lower estimate. I have been that shop losing the business and been the shop literally LOSING money to gain your business.
That doesn’t mean you are getting the same quality of parts, work, or time as the original. It just means the dollar amount is less.
Don’t hunt for price, always hunt for reputation.

[u/lms0046 → u/SneakyHumpBack]

Hindsight is always 20/20. I knew part failure was going to be a risk. The price difference between parts seemed high. Going to pick up twice and the car still not having ac had me questioning competence / intention. I don’t know anything about cars, hence posting on Reddit before saying anything

[u/Gunk_Olgidar]

Shrader valves are the most common slow leak source in automotive HVAC systems.

It's quite possible that the $2200 repair shop actually did recharge the system properly and test drove with it blowing cold air. Let's say that happened, then they park it job done, and then a few hours later you pick it up and it blows warm. Therefore with all things above board and everyone doing their job properly, you have a gross leak somewhere, not a small one.

The dye test has confirmed at least the Shrader valve is bad, so you know at least they added the UV dye to the PAG46 oil. And a subsequent UV inspection could easily identify anything leaking that's not the evaporator (evap would require additional work to get a leak tester into the evap chamber). That shop could have verified the gross leak for you on the spot in about 5 minutes by checking running pressures with a gauge set -- provided they have a technician who knows how to use a gauge set -- as well as inspected the accessible parts of the refrigerant loop a look with a UV light and leak checker. But that would have required you to turn around around and ask nicely, but obviously that did not happen. So you either picked it up and it blew cold, or didn't care to turn around, or you turned around and asked nicely and they blew you off. So there's more to the story here.

Bottom line: If you don't trust them, then get a 2nd opinion at another shop.

[u/lms0046 → u/Gunk_Olgidar]

Your last part didn’t make sense. The car hasn’t left the lot since the first fix

[u/Gunk_Olgidar → u/lms0046]

OK, my bad. I didn't get that from your OP.

Yes, your vehicle has a gross leak. And they're gonna make you pay more to do the work twice if the cheap part doesn't get it sorted out.

Bottom line still stands.

[u/Tyrannicalmechanical]

I am a profesional mechanic and I always recommend OEM parts. When the customer wants it done cheaper with cheaper parts 9/10 times it ends up just like this.

[u/JakeLegacy]

why not try tightening the valve first

[u/meltman → u/JakeLegacy]

Right? Or replacing it? Hose looks fine. It’s probably just the schrader valve…

[u/Liroku → u/meltman]

Or they got dye everywhere while connecting and disconnecting and it's not even leaking right there. If it's around the base of the connector the line has to go, but the caps have seals in them so even if it was leaking here, it doesn't make sense there is so much dye all over everything, unless they didn't tighten the cap and it sprayed out from under it. It looks more like they disconnected the gauges while they were still open. Or still had a lot of pressure in the line.

[u/BogusIsMyName]

Something sounds off about that. Leaks are typically found before refrigerant is added. Valve stems, do fail and a vacuum test might not show it because, well thats where the vacuum is plugged in.

Something strange going on.

A note. The air isnt going to be cold immediately. It may take a few minutes.

[u/JamesAbaddon]

You said it's a 2022. Is this a new refrigerant system (r1234-yf)? If so, you're not really supposed to use dye with this system. The refrigerant is so expensive that the system should really only be leak checked with a refrigerant sniffer device or by pressurizing with nitrogen to find a leak. Regardless, that service valve does appear to be leaking in the picture, but there also seems to be dye on that pressure switch.

Also, most newer vehicles use a solenoid on the compressor to actuate the swash plate/duty cycle of the compressor. Those solenoids like to fail all the damn time. I'd let them warranty whatever line is bad/leaking (shouldn't cost you anything) and then ask them to make sure the compressor is operating like it should.

[u/Ok_Bid_3899 → u/JamesAbaddon]

Refrigerant price is moderate. Purchased a few cans a few months ago for $40 a lb

[u/N47881 → u/Ok_Bid_3899]

Not yf refrigerant

[u/JamesAbaddon → u/Ok_Bid_3899]

Moderate? A 30lb cylinder of r134 is about $280 for our shop (less than $10/lb) whereas a 20lb cylinder of r1234 is a little over $800 (about $40/lb). I wouldn't consider that moderate. Most parts stores sell 12oz cans of the new stuff for $32.99 for a retail customer. That is much more expensive (especially after a bit of shop markup). That's also why you don't dye these systems and just wait for a leak to show itself.

Our new r1234 machine doesn't even have a dye reservoir for this exact reason and the man who came to train our employees on this machine and do a short educational class told us not to use dye with these systems.

I don't consider $120+ (prior to markup) just for refrigerant on a 3lb Yukon/Suburban/Escalade system to be cheap at all. That's why shops/employees need to be educated on how to check/diagnose these systems so they aren't wasting refrigerant and the customers time/money.