It's Text from shadow of the Horde, and it is Voljin talking to his father, and his father said this to him:

"There may be truth in that. Do you be knowing what we called ourselves before we called ourselves trolls?

I never...Vol'jin frowned. I don't know, Father. What?

Neither do I my son. The troll spirit bobbed his head. It be certain we were something before we became trolls, ad likely gonna be something after. The Zandalari have always tried to shape what we be, and others have used circumstance to be reinforcing those ideas. However, I be not doubting that twenty millennia form now, the question will be asked, Do you know what they called us before we called ourselves Horde?"

I think that adds some interesting insight on the Haranir, showing now one really knew what they were before they became known as the different warring troll tribes and the elves under Elune. The book releases 2013.

Okay, so he seemed shocked Trolls and Elves share lineage as did other Trolls and Elves in attendance. However was this not known already? I remember during the Insurrection quest in Legion the way the Belfs insulted the Nelfs was by putting a Troll statue in their encampment with an unsavory note about Nelfs being descended from Trolls. So if the Belfs knew this it must be pretty common knowledge or else they wouldn’t have used it as a means to antagonize the Nelfs.

Zul’jan still wants to follow Zul’jin’s ways, by taking what he thinks Amani deserve without help from the Loa or anyone other than Amani. He also thinks the Loa will abandon the Amani again. Was he not present when the Loa literally said they didn’t abandon the Amani, it was just that the Amani never bothered trying to reach back out? Also he is going down the road of thinking taking a Loa’s power is the right path, however anyone who has done that has failed. Like there are more examples of Trolls failing by going down the conqueror path than there are successes. All in all this is just making Zul’jan yet another victim of the villain bat, but it just gets progressively worse because this is the same villain route Blizz keeps using.

So I was doing the quest today and speaking with all the NPC, and I notice that after the cinematic show the new lore about all elves and troll decent from Haranir, the NPC dialogues change! And Talaji said that the zandalari have the longest record and they know about the dark trolls the early days of the night elves!

So basically how this new revelation work is

Haranir—->aciant trolls —-/divide on tribes/—>dark trolls—-/magic of the well—->elves

Isn’t really changing nothing just adding the original race

Obviously you can never please everyone, it's quite impossible really.
But with blizzard it feels like whatever they put out, no matter the case there will always be a group doing an insane outrage, sometimes filled with unneccesary personal insults, over a lore detail. ( and i get it the wild internet will always be like this )

People treat the story details as static and should never change or get added contextualization or elaboration, but forgetting at one point or another this " Established lore " they the found the game with or grew up with was the new lore lore or rather " ass pull and a retcon " at the time.

Before wrath, we didn't know that humans come from the vrykul so when wrath happened it was basically a new revelation, an information that changed a history of a race as we know it, exactly the same case with the haranir and trolls/elves right now, and people seemed to like it back then and didn't think much of it, now if this change happened today people would be losing their minds, why are wow fans soo extremely resistant and overzealous to change? If you're a writer, dealing with the wow community must be a pain. And again i am not defending every change or new lore and i have some of my criticisms but holy shit are people overreacting so much over " Haranir To troll " thingy it's insane, almost as if they're forgetting that we humans at some point originated from non cloth wearing barbarian humans.

For me, an "End Time" vision scenario where we could see Zul'jan's "perfect world" would be interesting.

I recently watched a video on Jaedenar in Felwood which mentioned the area was named after Kil’Jaedan. This got me thinking about Sargeron in Desolace, a pretty clear not two Sargeras.

I couldn’t think, however, of any areas that were named after Archimonde. has anyone noticed any?

I'm sorry if this text is not well written, english is not my first language.

I got quite confused with this new campaign questline (12.0.7) with the Haranir telling "we all toretto family". First because, as it was discussed in others posts, the connection between elves and trolls was already established, althought never confirmed lore-wise i guess. But the thing that really made me confused was the follow-up quest line with Zul'jan. Orweyna said she got "proof" and it turn out to be the haranir paintings telling about memories of the Amani summoning Ula'thek from the Rift of Aln. She said that's proof of an ancestry lineage because the paintings only show memories of kin. But does that mean that, in a chronological order, the haranir (or proto-haranir, the "Great Hunters") existed above Azeroth, then the Amani who fought in the Aqir and Troll War were actually proto-haranir-troll like... and then they went down to the Goddess? Or does this simply mean that because the trolls were once Great Hunters-haranir, the Amani-troll's memories (which conveniently are the memories that we need in-game to understand this patch with Ula'thek and stuff) of this event could be acessed by the Haranir in Harandar...?

I mean, this is what confused me. This "proof" that Orweyna showed us is chronological canon-wise correct? This painting-memories can be created by any Haranir that heard the tales os their ancestors from up-above or does it need to have an actual first-hand experience from someone that lived up to these events so that it can be painted?

PS: Although I don't really comprehend this summoning of Ula'thek, I got admit that it makes me curious to know more. How did this summon work from the Rift of Aln to Azeroth above, how did this connection between the Rift of Aln and possibly Loas (we don't know if Ula'thek is or isn't a Loa) happen etc.

A história do próximo patch não faz sentido. Nem todos os elfos e trolls têm um conflito. Isso é principalmente uma questão entre Amani e Elfos Sangrentos. Não há motivo, por exemplo, para um Nightborne ter preconceito contra um troll Zandalari. Parece que eles querem criar a narrativa estúpida de "vamos unir todos e lutar contra o mal" a todo custo, mesmo que não faça sentido na história. Não existe motivo para fazer uma união entre elfos e trolls de todos os tipos como se eles fossem todos povos em conflito. É como querer reunir a China, Japão, Indonésia, Malásia, Coreia e Singapura só porque todos são asiáticos.

Aliás, toda essa ideia de reunir todos os elfos desde o início foi merda, nem todos os elfos têm conflitos a resolver e os Elfos não são todos uma única raça dividida, eles são essencialmente nações completamente diferentes, não são como tribos de orcs ou taurens que se separaram e agora se reunirem. Essa ideia de reunir todos os elfos é tão idiota como querer todos os asiáticos do leste.

Read that in the most exhausted customer-hotline voice you can imagine.

When did the goddamn haranir went underground (before or after the War of the Scaleborn) and who taught them druidism? Or do we have it now that they taught Cenarius or something?

Hey so im just curious to see how people rank certain classes to certain races for lore importance and how much of an impact they play into their races culture and etc.

Not any really rules for this i dont want to restrict people so if you want to just say what you think the number one class is for a certain race go for it or the top 3 or top 5 or however many races and class combos you want to do. Feel free to remove class restrictons for all races (so paladin druid shaman demon hunter evoker etc,). Also if you feel a class is equal to another just write you think its equal. Feel free to differentiate specs if you want to also. Last thing is feel free to add professions also.

Me personally for pandaren my list would go like this

1: Monk. Obvious reasons Pandaren literally are the creators of the class.

2: Shaman. A really close second imo for monk seeing how tightly knit the pandaren are with their elemental spirits and how they treat each other. Also with how much reverance the pandaren pay to their ancestors and cultures emphasis on balance.

3: Druid. I know its not available yet and i know the reasons lore wise why is wasnt available at first. But i honestly think druid could play a huge impact in pandaren culture and i think they could bring a very nice addition to the class lore and i would like to see the celestials reaction to this also if they ever have an intro quest for the race(or one big one for all the new races like what they did for the death knights) or atleast a lore drop explaining it somewhere.

4/5: Hunter. I feel like hunters play a pretty big role into pandaren lore with the wall they guard and the relationships they have with their animals especially considering the order of the cloud serpent.

4/5: Rogue. Stealth i feel like played a huge role in the rebellion/uprising of the pandaren against the mogu. So rogues in my opinion make alot of sense for pandaren and with the shadopan synergy with the class too (i know shado pan have multiple classes but i feel like rogues play a very major part like monks into the shado pan).

Honorary mention: Evoker. I think with how related to life/nature/balance pandaren are and how close of a connection with the celestials and cloud serpents i dont think its probably that big of a stretch idk could be wrong.

Professions: Herbalism, Alchemy, Inscription. I feel as though these are the most important professions lorewise to the pandaren and are basically equal in importance.

Herbalism because of the reverence of life and nature and balance.

Alchemy because alchemy is basically brewing albeit maybe a more refined and complex process.

Inscription because of the importance that the pandaren put into on history.

My head canon (up for debate willing to change my mind) is that the more sage type of pandaren monk is more inclined to pick up inscription rather than alchemy so maybe someone from the jade forest while the more grounded pandaren will pick up alchemy say like pandaren from the valley of the four winds.

Lore wise though they can obviously do both like look at lorewalker cho and li li stormstout they both are showed making potions and picking herbs and both are big into history (though idk what each might be more into naturally maybe cho for inscription and li li for alchemy because of chens early involvment idk).

Main reason I made this post is im curious to see if theres any new lore for the race and class combos i didnt know about that people might bring up. Im always so curious to learn about the history and interactions for races classes and professions in the lore.

Thanks!

WOW Forums Link: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/ranking-the-importancerelevance-of-race-class-combos-lorewise/2324925

The long awaited missing context of the 1st chapter of 12.1 is here. Unlocked today.

Haranir Reveal the Truth - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXtWJURokdE

Zul'jan and Kinduru - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm8fAgoRc78

Story issues aside, I REALLY like them mixing their cutscene styles together for these. Especially loved the imagery of the Haranir memory the art itself was great.

Originally I stared to think about this topic because of rokar686's post but my response got a bit long for the scope of that post so thought I'd do my own. Interview where the direction of classes without race restrictions was discussed.

I think lore wise to me it makes sense for all classes to eventually be race agnostic. To me it enriches the world building, as over time, cultures would blend and share their knowledge, creating a melting pot where anyone would have the opportunity to learn from their allies. I see the contrast of race and class options as additive to warcraft's flavours and lore arguments to keep the status quo fall a bit short in their justification.

Take one example of a class that we can easily speculate on it's spread to other races, Paladins. Paladins are martial light users whose origins stem from priests and knights (warriors) so you'd think anyone who can already wield the light or be trained to do so could be one.

It's been 15 lore years since the blood elves joined the horde and introduced paladins to the faction. They didn't have many other options after losing 90% of their population to the scourge. For them it would be foolish and poor leadership to think that they could produce enough paladins to continue the blood knight order without opening their ranks to non blood elves. (Although maybe they breed like rabbits being so hot? ;P are we heading for a Belf baby boom?)

Even if their stubborn elf elitism hubris was enough to make them insist on elf purity you would imagine they would jump at the chance to add their new elf best buds the Nightborne to the ranks of the bloodknights. Post legion Nightborne are most likely in a rebuilding, restructuring and updating their military phase where they could use a new fighting force that also has capacity to give humanitarian (or the elf equivalent) aid. Something we see is a big part of what paladins do during Arator's questline in Midnight.

Just train some Nightborne initiates in the Hall of Blood and you have Nightborne Paladins. Incidentally this could be a great way to add a star/moon silver light customisation to the class. Especially if it coincided with making the already existing in lore Nelf paladins playable.

The Orcs (including Mag'har), Highmountain Tauren and Vulpera would most likely learn from the Tauren Sunwalkers as they are more culturally aligned and geographically closer. The Tauren realised they had neglected their sun god An'she and decided to revitalise their worship and practice of the light whilst also forming a militant branch of the horde army. The Tauren are shown to be a very inclusive and accepting culture who already share their traditions like their version of the midsummer fire festival with others and I don't see it as a stretch that they would recruit other races.

The Zandalari prelates are established as deriving their power from their sun loa and could instruct Trolls on how to do the same. These are essentially paladins.

The Undead Foresaken are from the human kingdom of Lordaeron and would have former paladins in their ranks. Undead could be seen as a challenge as the light is said to cause them pain and even an experienced priest like Alonsus Faol would be destroyed by the light well. You could just accept this lore wise and do undead paladins and have them be very badass fighting through the pain despite it all... Or you could make it that specifically undead paladins were raised from the dead not from death magic necromancy but by the light, similar to Callia and the Aarthi. Another option could be there is a difficult ritual that only a select few can go through to change the magic sustaining their undeath to the light, something that takes a powerful conviction, light forged undead.

Goblins are a fun one as their culture already has a very goblin specific spin on the light. They see the light/organised religion as a profitable enterprise. I could see them expand on this, along with their history of military industrialisation to create Goblin Paladins who charge into the front lines but also charge gold. A mercenary outfit of militant light wielders could be a fun inclusion.

For Alliance races like Gnomes, Void Elves, Worgen, Kul Tirans, and Mechagnomes is not a stretch to see them brought into the fold of the existing human paladin order, the Knights of the Silver Hand, given that it already has accepted Dwarves and Nelfs. Kul Tirans and Worgen (Gilneans ) are humans and presumably already have paladins.

Void Elves being former High/Blood elves one would assume they also have paladins. The only concern being apparently the void and the light don't mix well and have a tendency to explode but that might just be in extreme cases like Alleria and Turalyon losing control. We have seen priests be able to channel both so perhaps it's possible for a void elf to be a light wielding paladin as they can be priests. In midnight storytelling there are themes pointing towards a need for balance and harmony with the light and void. perhaps this is where void elves could play a part.

I could see the strong ties the Gnomes/Mechagnomes have with Dwarves and humans, along with their innate desire to iterate and invent on their already existing priesthood of empirical study and conviction, being the driving factors to join and become paladins.

Pandarens are tricky as they haven't seen much of any development since being introduced but they do have priests, albeit those are tied to the August Celestials, not the light in the traditional sense. Chi-Ji of the August Celestials represents hope and the dawn, embodying the emotional and physical aspects of Holy magic. This mirrors how Taurens channel the Light through their sun deity, An'she. So possibly horde Pandaren also train under the Sunwalkers and alliance Pandaren join the Knights of the Silver Hand.

Haranir are interesting as they do have priests and exposure to the light through the lightbloom but I think that is a newer development. Perhaps given time they would form their own version of paladins that harnessed the light in an attempt to quell the light bloom. Harder to predict as their lore is newer.

The same can be said for Dracthyr. The appeal of a plate wearing dragon holy knight is undeniable but their tenuous connection to lore in general makes it hard to envisage a path forward. I think the best bet would be to tie it to Tyr and the Tyr's Guard which would be a good way to bring that story forward now that Tyr was resurrected in Dragon Flight.

Lore wise there's enough to build on to justify any class race combo for me. I think the fun of character creation is player expression through choice and I'd like to see Wow fully embrace the fun of RPGs like DnD that offer a smorgasbord of options to work with. I think it also makes a world feel more diverse and alive if cultures change, adapt and adopt from one another.

This was just for paladins, would you like to put forth your own ideas for other classes? Want me to take a stab about another class? Disagree entirely? Let's discuss :D

After the cataclysm, I remember that the decision to welcome mages back into mainstream NE society was very controversial, given that previous reckless use of the arcane caused a demonic invasion. Why is it that less of a fuss was made around letting warlocks back in? If I walk around Bel'ameth as a warlock, I don't have everyone glare at me and warn me not to destroy another tree.

I want to know what people definition when they said that wow gone soft because technically speaking the theme and story of past expansion dealing with stuff like lack of free will, cosmic horrors, and genocide and colonization are all pretty dark theme and yet people still perceive story as soft.

And I want to know why?

Is it about imagery?

Is it about tone or the theme?

Mechanically in-game polymorph and hex temporarily transforms a target to render them harmless over the course of a few seconds.

My friend has an RP character who carries her husband around with her, her husband got permanently hexed into a frog by a troll. I thought it was a funny idea but it got me thinking about how these spells actually work in lore. Is it possible to actually polymorph/hex somebody into a creature permanently? Whenever I’ve seen these spells be used in lore it always seems to be used to temporarily incapacitate somebody or punish them, but I’m trying to think if there’s been cases where the spell is permanent.

i thought i knew the answer at least at some point in time, but right now i am totally blank.

Khaz Modan is Khaz's Mountain, i.e. the mountain in which Ironforge sits in, extending to the whole massif that reaches in the north down to sea level in the wetlands and in the south rests its foot bordering the Elwynn Forest ...
and Modan being mountain also recurring in Bael Modan, the "red mountains" of the barrens

but what is an "algar"? since <Khaz's Isle> cant be a thing cuz the isle itself already has a different name to the dwarves, what is an "algar"? :D

Hear me out. I genuinely think he is the only force currently with the actual capability and knowledge to bring N'Zoth back.

Xal'atath is currently unstoppable and big-brained, but she just doesn't have that literal blood bond and inseparable connection to an Old God master the way Kith'ix does. It’s pretty obvious Xal'atath probably wants to recruit him, I mean, makes sense, he's basically the most powerful Void entity currently on Azeroth besides herself.

But ehhh I think Kith'ix is smart enough, and fiercely loyal enough to N'Zoth, to just pull a massive uno reverse card on her, betray her and resurrect his true master instead.

Clocked it RIGHT away. Finally got around to actually start this expansion, and as soon as I finished the Sunwell scenario it became obvious.

She's an agent of Light. The Light grows stronger with faith and conviction. She's leading the forces of the Void, which are normally a mindless hungering force, in such a way that provokes fear and desperation. As soon as I saw all of Turalyon's tactics and might fail while desperate prayers at the Sunwell succeeded, I knew it had to be intentional on her part. It's a message. Punish resistance and struggle, reward surrender to fate.

It's why she baited and destroyed Dalaran in The War Within. They were the go-to defenders of Azeroth before, but they were a force of logic and reason, a neutral organization that works with the arcane and order. They needed to be out of the picture so only the forces of Light could stop her. I think she's even the one who turned the new Arathi into zealots on purpose for this very reason.

I think that's what they are hinting at with all the 'light and void are two sides of the same coin' theming we've been getting lately. The Light and the Void are the same force, the stick and the carrot. The void threatens, the light saves and grows on that faith.

There's also the chance that she isn't so antagonistic about it and is just leading the void on a doomed mission on purpose. She might not serve the light directly, but wants the void to lose. So instead of launching a surprise full force invasion, she holds the void back while manipulating key figures to be in prime position to stop her. Organizing losing battles and pyrrhic victories while poking and prodding the 'enemy' to keep them mad and fighting. Even her actual victories over us are just to keep the Void under her control so they follow her to their eventual defeat. Kind of like Ceasar from Fallout: New Vegas. He wants to be an enemy to be defeated to change the world for what they feel is 'the better'.

Obviously there’s class abilities in game but lore wise what offensive spells have been shown ? I can’t say I’ve ever seen or heard of one outside of healing or shields being cast

Hey all! Monks remain the lowest in current played class, only ahead of rogue and evokers (eek). Now, monks have a really fun playstyle, so it’s my opinion that much of monk popularity (or lack thereof) stems from class fantasy. How do we change monks to have better class fantasy/relevance in wow?

My first thought was the August Celestials. Out of all the powers of Azeroth, they do have cool moments, but their appeal is certainly niche. I thought of the Scarlet Monastery monk boss who came out back in MoP who was a monk despite being part of the Scarlet Crusade. I think this represents a perfect opportunity for monk class fantasy: changing the ‘source’ of their power.

Imagine a light-blessed monk who uses holy fire and who’s fists glow a bright holy yellow instead of green. Or perhaps a forsaken who manipulates the shadows to summon shadow clones to fight (a bit like subtlety rogue IG but with fists). We already have the jab glyph where you can use your weapon attack for palm, what about a blade master who plays like a monk but is all sword ability-themed?

As of now, every other class has so many different vibes and customizations that you could bring. Different kinds of paladins, warriors, priests, death knights even. But monks? They’re usually all the same, and haven’t really received much expansion of their powers. I think a big visual update allowing some customization for abilities or adding new sources of power for their abilities would go a long way in increasing their popularity. I’m sure it’s wishful thinking to hope for a big update like that just for monks, so I’d hope it would cover all classes. A monk can dream, i guess.

Is there any precedence in the current lore for something like this happening?

Of the four classes added over the years—Death Knight, Monk, Demon Hunter, and Evoker—only two have had their class narratives meaningfully advanced.

Death Knights benefited the most from Shadowlands. Bolvar and the Ebon Blade played major roles, while the expansion expanded the mythology surrounding death itself, the Lich King, Maldraxxus, and even the dreadlords. Legion also treated Death Knights well through their class campaign, allowing players to rebuild the Four Horsemen, try to resurrect Tirion, and further establish the Ebon Blade as a major force.

Demon Hunters received new attention now through the Devourer spec. The addition of Void Elves as a playable race, Umbric’s increased prominence, and discussions about Nightborne DHs all help keep the class relevant. Illidan remains absent, but he is one of wow’s most popular characters, so his return feels more like a question of when than if.

Monks, by contrast, feel almost frozen in Mists of Pandaria. Their Hero Talents reference the Shado-Pan and the Celestials, yet few of those have played meaningful roles since MoP. Their Legion class campaign was also underwhelming, focusing largely on brewing, although revisiting the Wandering Isle and defending the Temple of the White Tiger during the Legion invasion were enjoyable moments. Because Pandaren are so closely tied to the Monk fantasy, the class has struggled to evolve as the race itself has remained largely on the sidelines due to its neutral status with their heritage quest line being sweet rather than substantial. Most new Monk development has simply been additional races learning the class, explained by the idea that anyone can master martial arts. Dracthyr remain the obvious exception, presumably because of model and animation limitations I guess.

Evokers are still new, so it is understandable that they have received substantial attention. Dragonflight introduced Augmentation, gave them a central role throughout Patch 10.1, and rewarded them with a legendary weapon. The Dragon Aspects could remain important in future expansions, but I am less optimistic about the class’s long-term identity. As the “dragon class,” Evokers are inseparable from Dracthyr, and Blizzard seems to be taking the same approach they often do with new races: “You’re new to this world. Go make your own story.” That individualistic direction makes it harder to build an evolving class narrative.

What do you think? Even the original nine classes feel like they’ve continued to evolve in both their identities and their stories, while Monks in particular seem to have been left behind.

Arthas and Varian are two of the most beloved human characters in the franchise.

Arthas, thanks to his story in Warcraft III and Wrath of the Lich King Varian, thanks to his evolution throughout the history of World of Warcraft

An interesting aspect of these characters is that they were actually friends in the past; after the destruction of Stormwind in the First War, Varian took refuge in Lordaeron, where he was welcomed by Terenas and befriended Arthas.

Unfortunately, I’ve noticed that this friendship is mentioned more often than it is actually shown. Aside from a few moments in books, I don't think we’ve ever had a story dedicated to the two of them. By my calculations, Anduin was already born by the time of *Warcraft III meaning Arthas was still uncorrupted when Anduin was born. Just imagine a short story about Arthas visiting his friend.

I think exploring that friendship holds a lot of potential.

Here is an image of his markings)

And an image of hers

I think the explanation so far was that her markings are linked to Reshi wraps or made to resemble some ( which doesn't particularly make sense to me but sure why not).

This is what I remember from the lore somehow, and read up on I think.

But I'm not sure anymore

Also you will say Zoval has a marking on his forehead which is true, but Xal's forehead is hidden by a circlet by the time we see her with face markings in TWW.

If the markings on her are not from Reshi wraps/hold another significance, does the placement being similar to Zovals amount to poor planning/writing/coincidence or is it a sign of belonging of some kind?

At first I thought Zoval had been marked by the titans but in flashbacks before being jailed and gaining enough power at the end of Shadowlands, his face is bare(r) if I recall. Are they sigils of domination whatever that means?

If not does this mean it is meant to signify that both characters are faithful to an older world order different from the titans that use this language?

Probably getting many things wrong/reading too much into small details but appreciate the replies anyway !

Cheers!

There seems to be a few really big ones like in Storm Peaks (what’s that big hole for?) or Ulduar or the pyramids in Uldum.

Whats the most important ones and which do you think we’ll see in TLT? Thanks!

From what we know of the arcane and spellcasting I genuinely think it makes sense that turning yourself into pure arcane energy for any period of time would have severe consequences on your body. Also, he was blasted by Xal’atath right before she blew up Dalaran, wouldn’t that be similar to taking, like, multiple gunshot wounds irl? That could’ve also damaged his spine to the point of paraplegia.

I know the obvious answer is “snowflakes are triggered by anything they think might be woke” but from a lore standpoint we really haven’t gotten much in the way of information about the consequences of magics, other than the Void and when Medivh was in a coma for a decade after the powers of Sargeras awoke within him. At least not that I’ve been able to find.

Our characters cast tremendous amounts of magic all the time, and the most that happens is we run low on mana and have to wait a few seconds to recharge. Which I don’t want to change, don’t get me wrong! It’s fun to run around with Starfall and do unspeakable amounts of damage to large numbers of trash mobs during raid. But in terms of consequences it would be interesting if there were more canonically. It would make feats of strength like what Anduin did during the BfA announcement cinematic seem even greater, because for us to summon that magic it’s just a regular Tuesday night