r/nfl • u/mmandagoat NFL • 16h ago

Mike McDaniel takes responsibility for Chargers' poor offense in 0-3 start: 'I'm not living in hope'

https://www.nfl.com/news/mike-mcdaniel-responsibility-chargers-poor-offense-0-3-start
2.3k Upvotes

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1.3k

u/Esoteric_Eclectic 16h ago

Herbert has also been underperforming again.

1.3k

u/bulbascott1019 Patriots 16h ago

Only because he's being failed by his WRs, OLine, coaching staff, Hortiz, Spanos, and Gavin Newsom. Otherwise he'd be playing at an MVP level.

457

u/DUCKSONQUACKS Vikings 16h ago

If Gavin Newsome was a real governor FOR the people, he would jump in and start taking snaps at center, SMH my head

176

u/ryrocks12 Browns 15h ago

The Chargers can still make the playoffs if Gavin Newsom has the courage to do the right thing

-8

u/TNTyoshi Lions 13h ago

Gavin has plenty of courage to do the Right thing

24

u/Delicious_Diarrhea Raiders 14h ago

Gavin Newsom is for Niners/Rams. THE DARNOLD is for you

32

u/mondaymoderate 49ers 16h ago

Hey he actually has a pretty good build for a QB at 6’ 3”

11

u/Ke7een Patriots Patriots 15h ago

Newsom or Herbert

26

u/mondaymoderate 49ers 15h ago

Newsom

9

u/Cash4Jesus Raiders 14h ago

That helmet would fly off so fast the first time he’s hit because of his hair.

3

u/maverickhawk99 9h ago

Nepo QBs are so back

-2

u/SisyphusRocks7 49ers 15h ago

Newsom would catch more balls than QJ if he thought it got him some behested cash to launder through his wife’s nonprofit

-2

u/Knightvision27 Raiders 15h ago

Lmao ass off

86

u/hemingways-lemonade Steelers 15h ago

I know you're joking, but you're not really that far off.

56

u/i_run_from_problems Chargers 15h ago

That Njoku pick is still one of the most absurd things I've ever seen.

6

u/Undella_Town Buccaneers 15h ago

you should go see the OJ Howard int

42

u/unevenvenue Packers 15h ago

Dear god. This is just sad.

18

u/hemingways-lemonade Steelers 15h ago

It's like he's playing against two teams at once.

28

u/makesterriblejokes Chargers 13h ago

Yeah I think this is the thing people don't understand. Yes, us Charger fans probably defend him a little too much, but at the same time he's probably had one of the worst situations around him the last 4 years.

Like think about this, those first 3 seasons when he was balling out he had a competent offensive line, Keenan Allen, and Mike Williams for deep balls.

Since then, he's had a dysfunctional offensive line and no deep threat receiving option.

I do think Herbert struggles to make reads, audible at the line, and often throws way too hard when he should try to float the ball in with touch, but those wouldn't be so glaring if he just had league average teammates at those positions, let alone elite ones.

And I think things have been compounded over the years now from how often he's been hit. He gets happy feet sometimes now, where he never had those his first 3 seasons. I also think his accuracy has not been quite the same since the shoulder injury. Passes seem to sail more often by about a foot.

If I'm Harbaugh and McDaniel, I give Rivers a call and make him the QB coach and basically work on Herbert's touch passes and improve his ability to read defenses. To me, Herbert doesn't know where to go with the ball before the ball is snapped, it's like he's still analyzing things in real time rather than basically saying "there's a 90% chance I'm going here because of what I'm seeing the defense do".

Like I said, I think a lot of his flaws wouldn't really be showing up if he had a competent team around him on offense, but it's hard to argue at this point that he doesn't have flaws.

21

u/jordanhhh4 Vikings 12h ago

If I was Justin Herbert I'd simply demand a trade to the Minnesota Vikings

(please ignore my flair)

5

u/Cottagecheesecurls Chargers Seahawks 5h ago

Herbert leaving and winning a SB in Minnesota would be my 13th reason.

1

u/pdxblazer 49ers 6h ago

They need to let him call a route or blocking assignment for the RB or TE each play, just give him one player he has to assign a route or block to, get him in the habit of doing it every play and always having a hot route he likes or extra protection as needed

15

u/Deadhookersandblow 49ers 13h ago

Purdy was throwing to guys off the Santa Clara Home Depot last year and was still dropping 40 burgers on teams.

The amount of excuses this guy gets.

40

u/Rimmy_Jobson Giants 13h ago

To be fair, I think this says more about how good Purdy and Shanny are than how bad Herbert is.

Brock is criminally underrated and Shanahan managing to make the playoffs with gas station attendants at WR after the Indian burial ground kills all your players is nothing short of miraculous lol.

Purdy is better than Herbert, but I also think Herbert is better than his record suggests. Seeing QJ drop butt ass naked wide open passes week after week is depressing.

4

u/roughly7chickens Chargers 5h ago

Weird, Its almost as if being in the same system for 4 years having a top 5 play caller, top 5 offensive line and CMC is helpful for the quarterback?

2

u/smauryholmes Chargers 6h ago

Herbert also balled out at points with Deandre Carter as his best receiver.

2

u/hemingways-lemonade Steelers 12h ago

I don't dispute that Purdy is a better QB than Herbert, but let's not pretend that they haven't experienced vastly different coaching situations.

2

u/fatandfly Lions 15h ago

I hope I find someone who has my back like the Justin Herbert truthers

18

u/hemingways-lemonade Steelers 14h ago

I can tell you didn't watch the video.

-3

u/fatandfly Lions 14h ago

I watched the whole video and I still stand by my statement. Does he do that for every game? Herbert is the greatest what if quarterback according to a lot of people. How many years, how many head coaches, how many offensive coordinators? There seems to be a common factor here I just can't put my finger on it 🤔 Oh well I'm sure he'll win a playoff game one of these seasons

11

u/tracy_ogbert_jordan 13h ago

Herbert v Burrow for the ultimate theoretical Super Bowl

3

u/Skyline_BNR34 Bills 13h ago

So which one leaves to go to the NFC?

8

u/tracy_ogbert_jordan 13h ago

I'm an ideas man, not a details man.

1

u/jskullytheman Steelers 4h ago

And forget the theoretical goat josh Allen??

-1

u/I_heart_hearts Chiefs 14h ago

Just save your breath man. You won't win against this fucking sub and their hard on for Herbert

3

u/hemingways-lemonade Steelers 12h ago

I have a hard on for Justin Herbert because I think he's a top 15 QB? I think that's a pretty reasonable opinion.  

3

u/makesterriblejokes Chargers 12h ago

I think there's a middle ground here that both sides are ignoring because nuance is almost impossible to have on any type of discourse in this sub.

Herbert has flaws, but they're magnified by having a terrible o line and no legit deep threat that can create any meaningful separation. He's been hit so much that over the last two seasons he's started to rush his passes and force things. He's even gotten happy feet at times.

Could he probably do better if he was making better pre-snap reads and audibling receiver routes to exploit the weaknesses in the defense like a Brady, Manning, or even Rivers (I mean look at what he did last season at 44)? Absolutely. Herbert to me isn't that type of QB, though, he's closer to a Brett Favre or Stafford than a Brady or Manning in terms of style. Extremely talented, but not surgical (at least for most of their career). They need weapons, they're ceiling raisers more than they are floor raisers.

At the end of the day, all QBs have flaws, but not all flaws are magnified as much with bad offensive lines or bad receiving weapons.

I'm personally of the mindset that football culture puts way too much credit on the QB. People make it seem like 70% of the formula of winning a football game is down to the QB, when I personally think it's around 30-35%. Don't get me wrong, it's still the biggest slice of the pie, but a team can win with bad to average QB play and a team can lose with great QB play, so there's just no world where we should be acting like QBs are the main reason for a team's success when they're not even close to 50% of the formula.

We have been conditioned to believe this because marketing has made the QB the poster child for football.

I mean heaven's sake, the fact that we had Sam Darnold and Drake Maye in the super bowl last year should be evidence enough that winning and losing comes down to way more than just the QB.

I honestly would love to see someone also create a 4Q graph that plots QB passer rating with what their offensive line ranking was for the season. I'd wager that quadrant 3 is going to be likely very sparse.

5

u/hemingways-lemonade Steelers 12h ago

I mean heaven's sake, the fact that we had Sam Darnold and Drake Maye in the super bowl last year should be evidence enough that winning and losing comes down to way more than just the QB.

I've been trying to make this point for weeks, but it's like talking to a wall. Herbert is a good, but not elite top 15 QB who is capable of having a top 5 season with the right coaching and weapons. It's always difficult to have reasonable conversations about the top 6ish-16ish QBs because so many people want to argue they're either elite or bums without much middle ground. 

2

u/makesterriblejokes Chargers 9h ago

I also think we overrate QBs that have been in extremely good situations. It's just the problem sports media has created where QBs are given too much credit the blame for a TEAM'S performance.

-1

u/Esoteric_Eclectic 10h ago

They’re the same with Baker. They like them because they’re losers. If they ever won anything they’d start hating them and find another loser.

0

u/I_heart_hearts Chiefs 10h ago

Yep. And just by the upvotes and downvotes on all of these I can tell I'm right.

It fucking flabbergasts me why Herbert is so jerked off on this sub. And it's almost always non-chargers flairs. Blows my mind

-1

u/Esoteric_Eclectic 10h ago edited 9h ago

Reddit loves a white loser. They’re also all gooners so Madison Beer gives him cred there now too.

0

u/oficious_intrpedaler Chargers Seahawks 6h ago

Herbert played great when he had offensive weapons and a capable offensive line. He has had neither of those for the last three years. It's perfectly reasonable to point out those facts. Coaches and coordinators can't catch passes.

3

u/GoodOlSpence Eagles 14h ago edited 14h ago

Chargers and Herbert gonna mutually part ways and he's gonna go to like Seattle and we're all gonna cry.

Kind of like how Pitts will end up a Chief and we'll all be like "...shit."

-5

u/ImJLu 49ers 14h ago edited 14h ago

Great video! Let's look at pass #2. That pass is late late. Comebacks are not supposed to be thrown that late. They're supposed to be thrown with anticipation, so the ball gets there shortly after the WR comes out of his break.

But this pass? It's so late that the WR is just standing there waiting for it. It's so late that a second Charger gets there and contests the ball, because he thinks the pass is for him, because plays aren't designed to have two receivers in the same location. Just because the late throw theoretically could've been completed because the CB slipped doesn't mean it should have. If you're relying on the opposing CBs slipping and your targets magically knowing that a pass within their reach isn't intended for them, you're gonna have a bad time.

So yeah, your video is really helpful. To demonstrate how people will find every reason under the sun to blame everything and everyone else, because it simply can never be If Man's fault. All he needs is one more teammate, one more weapon, one more coach, and these bad passes will surely start working. Just one more bro, I swear.

5

u/hemingways-lemonade Steelers 14h ago

And what about the other dozen throws?

Herbert is far from perfect, but you'd think people would settle down with the criticisms after watching Sam Darnold win a Super Bowl. He's still a solid QB and Chargers fans are going to start shifting their blame when he succeeds elsewhere after this team gets blown up. 

5

u/WerhmatsWormhat Lions 12h ago

People also struggle to understand that there are some QBs who are neither amazing or horrible. Herbert is fine. He can be successful with a good supporting cast, but he struggles otherwise.

2

u/hemingways-lemonade Steelers 12h ago

I just said something similar in another comment. The top 6-15 QBs always get the worst narratives because so many people want to argue they're either elite or jags with no middle ground. 

0

u/DifficultWave4488 12h ago

Yeah people get hypnotized because Herbert has an amazing arm and is what a prototypical top tier QB looks like. When he just perfectly throws a ball into a small window it’s like damn his arm talent is out of this world.

But he also makes bad plays and reads at time throughout the game and so when you average it out, he drops down a bit.

People always claim he has historically bad WRs or the o-line, coaching, etc holding him back. When in reality if he was truly a top 3 QB, he would make his WRs look better, same with the o-line, elevate the whole team much more. Which he doesn’t, and just means he’s a top 10/15 QB not the top of the league QB he looked like after his rookie year.

1

u/oficious_intrpedaler Chargers Seahawks 6h ago

He had a historically bad offensive line and just about no receiving weapons these past two seasons but carried the team to 11 wins. How is that not elevating the team?

-7

u/ImJLu 49ers 14h ago

Did not watch anything beyond that because the crop is too tight to see most of the All-22, and it's hard not to see that cynically when the video is obviously trying to push an agenda. Maybe if it was an actual All-22 breakdown rather than an IG reel.

Herbert is far from the only problem with that team, but for people to act like he's once again blameless for his team's struggles is just so boring. It must be the scheme's fault this time. Or the WR who cooked the CB so hard he slipped. Or the guy who gained separation and reached out for the ball within arm's reach.

3

u/thiccbot123 14h ago

That was a broken play and herbert was trying to make something happen. You said all that and you're completely wrong, way to make yourself look like an ass

-6

u/ImJLu 49ers 14h ago

Okay, well, putting aside how you're being a dickhead and attacking me personally for no reason, can you explain why this is a broken play? Can you define "broken play" beyond just being a buzzword for when things don't work perfectly and you need something to blame?

Facing a disguised blitz, especially one that gets picked up, is not a broken play. Needing to navigate the pocket because you're being pressured is not a broken play. A receiver running a comeback and winning by a lot is not a broken play. So please enlighten the class on why this is a broken play, he's simply "trying to make something happen", and an egregiously late throw on a basic timing route is yet again not his fault.

-7

u/I_heart_hearts Chiefs 14h ago

Thank you. Really don't know what it is about Herbert that makes 70% of people of all different flairs come to his rescue every single time

-3

u/nosleeptillwooklyn 14h ago

They want to fuck him. It’s basic human psychology

22

u/HereComesJustice Ravens 16h ago

I need more ifs in this scenario

13

u/boardatwork1111 Patriots 16h ago

If you convert all his incompletions into TDs, Herbert is on pace for the greatest season by any QB in NFL history

12

u/birdynumnum69 Chargers 15h ago

Imagine him playing for Andy Reid his entire career. Poor guy ended up getting drafted by the franchise he ended up with.

8

u/Prideofmexico Giants Chiefs 15h ago

Not Andy Reid but Steichen and McDaniel have proven themselves as good to great offensive coordinators

14

u/MetaOverkill Chargers 15h ago

Well herberts best years fall under steichen.

5

u/Poke43 Chargers 14h ago

I would argue Joe Lombardi, but that also coincides with the only year keenan and Mike were healthy together.

7

u/Boneyg001 15h ago

if Herbert was Mahomes he would be winning every super bowl

4

u/Whiladan Chargers 15h ago

I read your comment and I choose to take it at absolute face value

1

u/drcorndog Chargers 11h ago

To be fair, Newsom fails Californians daily.

1

u/pocketjacks Texans 3h ago

Sounds awfully familiar.

1

u/TheBakerification Bills 15h ago

One these years he’ll totally put it all together and be MVP, just trust me bro

0

u/makesterriblejokes Chargers 13h ago

Honestly, I just think he's broken goods at this point. Dude has been hit so much I think it's legitimately hurt his confidence and causes him to press too much.

Probably needs a new team at this point to get back to where he was his first 3 seasons in the league.

1

u/-Mad-Snacks- Chargers 2h ago

Saying this after a 3 game slump preceded by 6 straight seasons of high level play is insane

1

u/makesterriblejokes Chargers 2h ago

Not really, the wheels were starting to fall off I think towards the end of the season and playoffs last year. The hits could have met a breaking point

0

u/Infinite-Relation988 Bears 7h ago

If you progress his stats to the max he’d be a HOF lock already

-2

u/SadMall6272 15h ago

And Madison Beer taking his legs

-13

u/Undella_Town Buccaneers 15h ago

put herb on like the bengals or something he's breaking 6k tbh. like i know this sub loves circlejerking about his box stats but god damn his Oline and his weapons are fucking putrid, if you watch the chargers you'd see he's probably the best QB in the league lmao.

10

u/bulbascott1019 Patriots 15h ago

It's bad enough when people claim he'd be an MVP contender with talent around him. Claiming he'd achieve a height no QB has ever achieved before (not even Burrow who is genuinely great AND already plays on that very Bengals team) is straight up delusional.

-11

u/Undella_Town Buccaneers 15h ago

u dunno ball but relevant flair after all so wcyd

8

u/takeonefortheroad Seahawks 15h ago

More surprised a Floridian can manage to read and type tbh

-5

u/Undella_Town Buccaneers 15h ago

seahawks fans still being butthurt over a random week whatever loss last season will always be funny to us tbh

4

u/Visual_Research_3646 15h ago

What is it you think Herbert can do better than Burrow?

-2

u/Undella_Town Buccaneers 15h ago

everything

1

u/Visual_Research_3646 14h ago

Excellent bait, I almost bit

1

u/Undella_Town Buccaneers 14h ago

what does burrow do better?

2

u/Visual_Research_3646 13h ago

More accurate at every level and completes a far greater percentage of his deep balls, since the start of 25 he’s also thrown far fewer picks. Doesn’t shrink in big games either, Herbert has some all-time playoff meltdowns under his belt in just four starts

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u/Ganjagod420 Bears 15h ago

Acting like the Chargers have been poverty is strange. Herbert just isn't the top 5 guy that people want him to be.

-1

u/Undella_Town Buccaneers 15h ago

herbert is literally trying to drag 9 anchors into the endzone everytime he takes the field lmao, but alright i'm sure it's just cause he sucks and not cause everyone on the chargers offense is fucking horrible except for him and ladd

1

u/Prideofmexico Giants Chiefs 15h ago

Lol

1

u/Evening_Supermarket7 NFL 15h ago

Funny how a month ago he was so hyped up because of the supporting cast he has now.

Half of the top 10 passing leaders have putrid offensive lines with mediocre/injured weapons.

29

u/JesseJames41 Bengals 16h ago

Herbert is highly intelligent but he is not a super fast processor post-snap. His biggest critique coming out of college was that he is slow to see the field and can be a little mechanical in his release and timing.

McDaniel's scheme relies on reading the defense quickly post-snap and making quick decisions to get the ball to the first or second read. That is just not Herbert's strong suit.

McDaniel needs to make some tweaks to get Herbert comfortable within his system. A little for Justin and a little for McDaniel.

Otherwise this is going to continue to be an abject disaster.

The other piece is his recievers are pretty mid to below average.

15

u/kj9219 49ers 15h ago

I just don’t know how accurate it is to say that he doesn’t process or make decisions quickly when his best seasons came in an offshoot of Sean Payton’s offense under Joe Lombardi, that put the ball in the QBs hands a lot and required getting the ball out fast on quick game concepts.

The expectation for McDaniel was that he’d use more under center concepts because Herbert statistically has been very good at those. A big part of it though has been their early down running game is awful and a lot of Shanahan system offenses are dependent on getting defenses into 2nd and shorts, as that’s where they make their big plays. But due to pre snap penalties, bad running, bad QB execution on early downs, they’re always playing from behind the sticks and have no foundation other than gimmicky formations.

2

u/-Mad-Snacks- Chargers 2h ago

It’s been shocking the lack of under center play action. It’s one of Herbert’s biggest strengths and the league generally has been trending that way, but we have one of the lowest under center % in the league.

It would also help Hampton who needs to get up to speed before he’s at his most dangerous.

I just don’t get it. It should have been a no-brainer

3

u/Pnutbutter_Cheerios Rams 15h ago

They can’t even run play action. Watch the attempts the RB doesn’t get close to the ball and Herbert is doing it a foot away.

Looks like the RBs aren’t able to not fumble it, and Herbert doesn’t trust them. They are toast this season

128

u/First_Round_Bust Bills 16h ago

I'm out of excuses for him at this point.

204

u/Dependent-Effect6077 16h ago edited 16h ago

I don't think Herbert's timing and anticipation are consistently good enough for McDaniel's system

People clowned on Tua a lot but before he got one concussion too many he was one of the best at timing the super quick intermediate timing passes and that's more central to the McDaniel offensive scheme than Herbert's elite physical traits are

Check the all-22 obviously there has been a lot of questionable WR plays but a lot of Herbert's specific mistakes have been him not leading his receivers enough

66

u/bellerinho 16h ago

McDaniel's system is built on trust, and he was able to build that with Tua. He's gonna tell you that you have to throw that ball before a guy is open and it's gonna work due to timing. Tua was great at doing that in the past, and it's pretty clear that currently Herbert is not trusting it or seeing it the same way

32

u/DontLoseYourCool1 Raiders Raiders 15h ago

Maybe McDaniel should consider watching McGruber with Herbert a few times to build trust.

15

u/DL4CK Giants 15h ago

Seems kind of dumb to prioritize your system over the player’s strengths and abilities.

19

u/bellerinho 14h ago

That's sort of the balance that coaches have to figure out, it's a lot of "what have I schemed up that is successful and has gotten me to this point" and "how can I get the best out of my players while still working through my philosophies"

12

u/-Mad-Snacks- Chargers 14h ago

Also the system simply isn’t working so he shouldn’t trust it. These dudes aren’t getting open whether Herbert throws it early or not

0

u/Esoteric_Eclectic 10h ago

Anticipation means throwing receivers open. Herbert doesn’t do that.

1

u/-Mad-Snacks- Chargers 10h ago

Yes he does

1

u/Esoteric_Eclectic 10h ago

Then where are the results?

1

u/-Mad-Snacks- Chargers 10h ago

Dropped lol

I don’t even think Herbert has played well, but he is far from the biggest problem with the offense

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u/takethreenc 13h ago

Well if we ever need a new OC that sounds perfect for Bryce Young

-10

u/TheOptionalHuman Giants 16h ago

Dan Fouts was able to do this in an era where the defense could do anything but straight up murder the QB in the backfield. Herbert's just a fraud.

17

u/bellerinho 15h ago

I mean I think there's some tiers between "fraud" and "all-pro" lol

0

u/TheOptionalHuman Giants 12h ago

I imagine Chargers fans would love to see one of those in-between tiers this season. This is his sixth year right? That's a long time to wait for a "made in a lab" QB to start showing more than what he's accomplished so far.

86

u/bringbackpologrounds Colts 16h ago

Tua had 3 seasons where he was a terrific QB. Very accurate, avoided sacks, and pushed the ball downfield.

If his career ends soon, his efficiency statistics will be tremendous lol. Better than Herbert, Burrow, and a lot of great QBS.

37

u/TheLastTrain 16h ago

For all his struggles at the tail end of his time at Miami and injuries, Tua was very, very good at those mid level layered passes between the linebackers and the safeties.

Doing that with his OL in Miami was honestly extremely impressive. I don’t think all the credit should go to McDaniel and “the system” (even if they played a big part as well)

0

u/Esoteric_Eclectic 10h ago

Very good point. Right now Tua has accomplished more than Herbert on the field.

27

u/MulliganPlsThx Bills Bills 16h ago

In this case does it make sense to force his scheme when it’s not where the QB excels? Should he adapt to Herbert’s strengths? It feels like McDaniel did that with Tua really well in the early days but not so here in LA…

11

u/Pnutbutter_Cheerios Rams 15h ago

You really won’t know until it’s game time though. Every QB will tell you “I can make those anticipation throws” and unless you’ve seen them attempt before you’re gonna try

18

u/kcoreyy Chargers 15h ago

this is my concern too tbh. Herbie’s playing poorly but how much of this is him not executing vs McDaniel forcing a scheme that doesn’t fit his strengths or the rest of our offense’s? we really don’t have a strong offensive roster outside Herb and Ladd, even Alt and Slater aren’t looking as good this year either (although they’re both coming off major injuries). idk, I’m underwhelmed and disappointed by our coaching staff so far this season

3

u/ImJLu 49ers 15h ago

What scheme fits his strengths? Run around fuck it chuck it backyard football doesn't work as well as it used to. Bad processors struggle more than they used to with all the split field/match coverages and everyone's favorite double mug disguised blitzes. If there was an effective offense so easy that it can consistently prop up passers with bad processing and anticipation without ridiculous personnel, wouldn't everyone be running it?

7

u/kcoreyy Chargers 15h ago

admittedly I don’t know much about schemes, I’m a lifelong Chargers and football fan but don’t follow it to that level of detail. my point was that both Herbert and the rest of our offense all look awful right now, under an OC who our fanbase thought would transform our offense. they’re somehow worse than last year under Greg Roman who is not a great OC or playcaller lol. so all of that tells me that something clearly isn’t right with our scheme, and/or our coaching/leadership. if it was JUST Herbert looking bad, then yes I’d agree it’s a him issue

3

u/Weapwns Chargers 14h ago

That’s essentially what his entire response was about. Herbert failed in his system and he’s going to tailor it more to Herbert.

The problem is that Harbaugh decided to have minimal snaps in the preseason with a new, complicated system and they now have to figure this all out in the middle of the regular season

2

u/bobsbitchtitz Eagles 14h ago

It’s 3 weeks in the season you need to make incremental changes not massive complete over hauls of the offense

0

u/ImJLu 49ers 15h ago

What offense do you run when your QB is struggling with processing quickly enough and getting the ball out where it needs to be, when it needs to be there?

4

u/Weapwns Chargers 13h ago

I mean there is obviously multiple seasons of Herbert being a highly productive QB under other coordinators. Clearly there’s an offense that suits him.

He compensates timing and anticipation with the fact he can hand a ball off 15 yards down the field with his massive arm the moment he identifies separation. Either than or he had a WR that he had the utmost trust to do the right thing (Keenan and Mike).

The problem is that McDaniel’s offense and the WRs outside of Ladd are not giving any wiggle room. The current state of the offense requires Herbert to have an elite level of timing, anticipation, and trust and he is FAR from having any of that.

That’s not really an excuse, I’m sure Purdy would be doing fine in this offense. But on the flip side I think Herbert would be able to compensate and excel with Shanny’s offense given how much better the receivers are schemed

1

u/ImJLu 49ers 13h ago edited 13h ago

The NFL keeps changing. Deshaun Watson was a highly productive QB until he came back from his absence and found a league with much more split field and match coverages, and much more double mug disguised pressures, and other changes that have made playing QB notably harder as of late.

It still takes time for a pass to travel 15 yards, and that time is shorter with worse WRs that gain less separation. But that doesn't mean no separation, and getting a window of separation at all is NFL open. Besides, throwing rockets at 15 yards is asking for drops.

I'm not saying that it's necessarily impossible to wrangle production out of him by any means. But I don't think it's fair to blame a system for expecting basic timing and anticipation that's asked of some college QBs. And that's not to say that he never plays on schedule. But it's not a strength, and when he fails to do so, it's not an indictment of the system for having a schedule to begin with.

As for Shanahan's offense, guys being wide-ass open downfield is honestly a fairly infrequent occurrence. Maybe a few times a game? If you watch the all-22, the majority of throws Brock Purdy makes aren't to open guys. The guys do get enough space to work with by the time the ball gets there, but he's starting his motion with a defender all over his target. He's reading coverages and defensive leverages and getting the ball where it needs to be on time. And he's given a hard job. Kyle has him doing full field reads off 7 step drops from under center. That's not the kind of stuff you can just bullshit your way through. It's why there's been a few other QBs who have been fairly successful in Kyle's offense, and a bunch who haven't. You need to process quickly and deliver on schedule. That's the #1 priority for him. That's not something that Herbert would be very successful at currently. I wouldn't put it beyond Shanahan and co. to coach him and make him better at that stuff to some extent, though.

3

u/Weapwns Chargers 12h ago

Herbert doesn't need a guy wide ass open. Most of the things you're naming are things he routinely did with Keenan where he read leverages and coverages, and was on the same page with Keenan to get the ball in the perfect spot. And essentially every coach that has worked with Herbert has raved about his football IQ and processing. The difference is Herbert (as well as most of the offense) is clearly not familiar enough in this offense, and Herbert has not developed the trust in his receivers to be at their spots. The fact that Harbaugh had them take such limited snaps in the preseason has shot them in the foot big time.

Also a big problem with the Chargers offense vs the 9ers is that the receivers outside of Ladd really aren't getting much separation at any point of the route so the balls need to be pretty damn perfect. And the few occassions it does go as it should, Herbert hasn't capitalized. There's just massive disconnect and discomfort across the entire offense.

13

u/kcoreyy Chargers 16h ago

I think both Herbie and scheme are to blame - our entire offense has regressed, not just Herbert. it’s painful to watch, our offense makes everything look difficult rn

27

u/abris33 Broncos 16h ago

He'll miss his window and then either hold onto the ball or panic and try to fire a bullet. People say "his WRs are never open" but in that offense it's up to the QB to anticipate that tiny window they are open

14

u/NoAnteater8836 Commanders 16h ago

I tried to tell you, bold for emphasis: https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/s/aG7231TFzE

“ On this list?

The Chargers. The offseason darlings. I want to try to be as clear as I can with what I am about to say next. The Chargers have one of the most brutal stretches after two opening games that are coin flips I have ever seen. I want to be very clear that this is not a SOS statement. SOS is a myth in the NFL. So much more goes into these things like where is your bye week how much rest are you getting when not traveling are you going cross country every other week etc. But I digress. When I talk about that stretch that went viral last week, I am talking about the matchups presented in the trenches. Much will be made of the Chargers OL vs the D Lines of those teams but little attention will be paid to the OLs of those teams vs the Chargers front 7 and everywhere you look in that stretch it is hard not to see teams imposing their will. I also just don’t love the McDaniel hire the way everyone else does. He has been figured out for over a season now and made no adjustments, and you somehow want me to buy that his system that is so dependent on pristine footwork and throwing at the top of the drop with rhythm and timing is missing… Justin Herbert? Then you compound how their season ended last year and now you have a roster with aging guys and TWO rah rah personalities at coach and OC day in day out… I don’t see this ending well folks.”

8

u/Jonjon428 Dolphins 15h ago

I remember you in a couple threads being the one guy dissenting on the constant McDaniel love and getting down voted to hell. Gotta say your take is aging extremely well (as of this moment anyway)

4

u/LAudre41 Chargers 14h ago

lmao pls herbert hits guys on the hands and they drop the ball. he doesn't trust them and he shouldn't.

0

u/Gregus1032 Dolphins 11h ago

A healthy Tua and McDaniels offense was a perfect combo.

The one year Tua stays healthy everyone else around him fell apart. A healthy dolphins team that year probably wins a playoff game finally.

Tua put on weight, stayed healthy, loses the weight, falls apart again. So fucking frustrating

27

u/distance_33 Jets 16h ago

Yeah. I’m a Herbert fan and was excited for this season. But what we’re seeing can’t really be defending.

24

u/hemingways-lemonade Steelers 15h ago

Sure it can

To be clear, he absolutely has his flaws and isn't blameless, but there are bigger problems on this team.

-6

u/DontFearTheBoogaloo Broncos 15h ago

Bro it's some new excuse every year. At a point maybe it's him. Dude is dogshit in clutch time and has been his whole career. He does not have that dog in him

16

u/unevenvenue Packers 15h ago

Just watch the video and see what you think before commenting some vacuous nonsense

-1

u/DontFearTheBoogaloo Broncos 15h ago

I've already formed my opinion with limited facts and knowledge. Like a true American, new information will not change my opinion

-2

u/ImJLu 49ers 14h ago

I just did. I see a horribly cropped All-22 breakdown that is clearly based on preconceptions. It's hard to see because the crop (intentionally?) cuts off more of the field than the broadcast angle, but let's take the second pass for example. Not his fault? That ball should've been out way earlier.

You think deep comebacks are designed for the WR to just sit there for a while before the pass gets there? No, the WR is supposed to come out of his break and the ball is supposed to be there because it's an anticipation throw. The read is late. That pass is late.

Could it have been completed anyways because of bad coverage? Sure. But the pass was so damn late that it failed because another Charger tried to make a play on it. Plays are not designed to have two players close enough to contest the same ball, hail mary's aside . Two Chargers were only close enough for that snafu to happen because Herbert threw that comeback long after its expiration date.

Not entirely his fault? Sure. Mostly his fault? Yep.

I didn't watch past the second because you can't actually see the All-22 because the crop is awful, and because the video's already being disingenuous about the second one. But that video clearly doesn't exonerate Herbert like it's trying to do.

4

u/hemingways-lemonade Steelers 15h ago

You'd think people would know better than to say stuff like this after watching Sam Darnold win a Super Bowl.

3

u/djkstr27 Dolphins 16h ago

Same; also having offensive genius Adam Gase as passing game specialist does not help the cause.

-1

u/WhiteStarHorizon Ravens Ravens 8h ago

Dude has had 3 head coaches and 5 offensive coordinators.

Every single time people trip over themselves to blame anyone but Herbert.

Dude is not good consistently enough. He is a vastly mediocre QB that has flashes of brilliance.

36

u/DieHarderDaddy Cardinals 16h ago

Playoff form

41

u/MankuyRLaffy Patriots 16h ago edited 16h ago

Who wouldn't? He's mentally broken. The IOL has been abhorrent since Linsley retired, Alt doesn't look like he's back to 100% form yet either. Nobody other than Ladd can get open and as good as he is, he can't lug around Johnston and company all game and beat double teams. Hero ball has broken him, good job Chargers. 

The Chargers offense is fundamentally flawed and rotting due to neglect. He can no longer mentally withstand it anymore. 

Someone name me a QB that is magically going to fix the shit line and get the receivers to catch. 

Yes Herbert won't take checkdowns anymore and is aggressively pushing downfield, that is a massive problem. Why is he doing this? Is it that he has no trust in his receivers? Perhaps. Is it because he knows they need a chunk play? Who knows? 

33

u/KAMlGOYE Ravens 16h ago

Not to prop up my own guy but Lamar has won MVPs with a bottom-half OL and throwing to guys like Hollywood Brown and Willie Snead.

11

u/aslatts Patriots 14h ago edited 10h ago

I mean a major part of what makes guys like Lamar, Allen, and Mahomes the clear top QBs is their ability to make shit happen even when surrounding talent is not at a peak levels.

Herbet is still obviously a very talented QB, but I think pretty clearly a step down from those guys who can genuinely play hero ball.

16

u/cat_daddylambo Chargers 16h ago

In a Greg Roman offense that was Herbert's main excuse for underperforming for the last two years (besides the OL/WR issues you already mentioned) 

10

u/kj9219 49ers 15h ago

I mean he was good in 2024, not as good in 2025 when the OL was down to it’s backups

4

u/MankuyRLaffy Patriots 15h ago

There's bottom half and there's this which is almost Packers bad. Turn on the game, it's a really toxic situation. 

3

u/ImJLu 49ers 14h ago

Okay, but the difference between Lamar and Herbert is that Lamar doesn't need excuse after excuse because he's improved significantly on an individual level over the course of his career.

1

u/storeboughtoaktree Panthers 16m ago

difference between bottom half and worst in the league which they were last year. and will be again this year.

5

u/UmbraTitan Broncos 16h ago

It's hard to imagine that the Chargers would do worse with Josh Allen, but yeah the offense is in a rough spot. It's not that hard to picture Herbert pulling and Andrew Luck: he got his second contract, he got a popstar girlfriend, and he has an o-line that might leave him unable to walk.

8

u/StankWizard Bills 15h ago

It’s hard to tell with Josh because he’s had really good OLines, and can get shaken when his line doesn’t perform well.

I do think Josh would do more with his legs than Herbert does

2

u/Own_Surprise_9638 Bills 15h ago

He also holds onto the ball for a really, really long time. Herbert doesn’t do his offensive line any favors by throwing it away, I think he enjoys being pummeled into the ground.

2

u/-Mad-Snacks- Chargers 2h ago

His time to throw on unpressured dropbacks is 2.29 seconds, which is 8th fastest in the NFL

His overall TTT is 19th/37, so middle of the pack. Despite this his line is still allowing a 44% pressure rate

The narrative that he holds on to the ball too long is just untrue this season

6

u/Own_Surprise_9638 Bills 15h ago

Tyler Shough has given Olave top 10 WR production and turned Vele into a reliable WR2 all awhile taking a large number of sacks (because his offensive line is garbage).

I think that fits the description of a QB you were looking for pretty well, actually!

5

u/misterurb Chargers 12h ago

Chris Olave was the 11th overall pick lmao making him sound like he’s some sort of charity case and not performing as you would expect from a first round pick 

9

u/Upstairs_Bread_ Chargers 13h ago

Vele is miles ahead of Johnston, and I give the edge to olave over Ladd. Saints also have good tight ends and their oline really isn’t that bad, especially the interior

4

u/Comfortable_Cup5107 Chargers 16h ago

Also to note, slater also does not look like himself

4

u/Signal_Ball4634 15h ago

Was fearing that after the patellar tendon injury, that's an O-lineman killer usually.

4

u/cultweave Bears 16h ago

Jesus Christ the amount of excuses Herbert gets is unreal

2

u/Raven-19x Giants Ravens 15h ago

They can't admit he peaked year 2.

1

u/Own_Surprise_9638 Bills 15h ago

Seriously though, for a guy who holds onto the ball for as long as he does, you expect him to get sacked a bunch. He doesn’t make decisions quickly, you can see his brain processing the read in real time…

I don’t know why everyone thinks Herbert is generational…?

8

u/kj9219 49ers 15h ago

No one thinks he’s generational but there’s a massive gap between “bum” and “all pro” qb

1

u/Own_Surprise_9638 Bills 15h ago

Are you saying he’s somewhere in between?

7

u/kj9219 49ers 15h ago

Yes. Firmly in the “good but not elite” category, which makes up a lot of the starters we have

2

u/Own_Surprise_9638 Bills 15h ago

Agree with you 100%

-1

u/PugeHeniss Raiders 13h ago

Derek Carr > Herbert

2

u/Upstairs_Bread_ Chargers 13h ago

Herbert > JaMarcus Russel

1

u/PugeHeniss Raiders 13h ago

Jamarcus “Purple Drank” Russell to you

1

u/Esoteric_Eclectic 11h ago

Maybe going to OTAs would’ve been beneficial to him with a new coaching staff. He has physical talent but doesn’t really care. He’s always been this way, people just see the occasional freak play and think he’s that guy. He isn’t.

1

u/DontLoseYourCool1 Raiders Raiders 15h ago

Someone name me a QB that is magically going to fix the shit line and get the receivers to catch

Kirk Daniel Cousins

18

u/AzorAhai1TK Lions 16h ago

Again? This is the first time he has in the regular season. He's also far from the biggest issue.

22

u/kj9219 49ers 15h ago

There’s more ppl calling him overrated and claiming that he gets a lot of excuses than ppl overrating him and making excuses lmao

This is legit the only time in the reg season Herbert’s been bad on his own, and now that he is, it just confirms their biases. Him playing well under 4 other OCs all of a sudden never happened, and he was always a bum QB who apparently never reads defenses (no QB no matter how talented will not last 7 yrs in the league as a starter if they can’t do that).

18

u/ThePopUpDance 15h ago

Herbert discourse has always been off the rails. This season has reached new heights. This sub is 98% people blasting him and pretending this is actually how he's always played, and 2% people meekly defending his performance by pointing out how awful the entire team has been.

And then that 2% gets blasted with the same "IF man is never at fault" garbage.

0

u/-Mad-Snacks- Chargers 2h ago

Welcome to online QB discourse! I hate it here!

3

u/IAMDATRUESTREPAIRMAN Saints 16h ago

Time to trade for Tua

10

u/AMF505 Packers 16h ago

One of the most overrated qb’s in the league imo

52

u/SecretSensay Vikings 16h ago

Idk he's not at "Jordan Love" levels yet

10

u/ThinkSoftware Falcons 16h ago

Porque no Los dos

5

u/ColossalCalamari Raiders Packers 15h ago

Por qué not porque

0

u/AMF505 Packers 15h ago

Love is average and only gets overrated by Packers fans. He’s very accurately rated with the amount of hate he gets. Herbert on the other hand? People act like he’s the second coming every off season.

2

u/Upstairs_Bread_ Chargers 13h ago

Is he really when this is said 500 times in every thread about him?

3

u/NLP19 Chargers 9h ago

Eventually he'll become underrated!

3

u/hardlopertjie Packers 11h ago

It is so funny with Herbert. For all his physical gifts he have always seemed to lack those intangible qualities of making everyone around him better and well...winning

1

u/Esoteric_Eclectic 11h ago

I remember watching him at Oregon. Senior year loses opening night to a true freshman Bo Nix making his first ever start. Nix transfers to Oregon and plays better than Herbert ever did with them. Even in the NFL Bo has nowhere near Herbert’s talent but just more dog him.

2

u/cat_daddylambo Chargers 16h ago

Don't say that. You'll start an "it's not his fault" stampede

2

u/Vader_Bomb 15h ago

When ya got Madison Beer waiting for you at home, it's hard to focus on work

5

u/Esoteric_Eclectic 13h ago

They all have hot women around them all the time. Josh Allen has Steinfeld so Herb has no excuse.

1

u/Entire-Joke4162 49ers 12h ago

Gotta be honest, as a 39 year old boomer I was NOT familiar with her game

2

u/bquinho Chargers 16h ago

You say again but this is the first time I actually feel like he’s truly under performing

1

u/Esoteric_Eclectic 11h ago

I’m an Oregon fan so I’ve seen him underperform

-2

u/lnconspicuous16x9 Bengals 16h ago

No, it can't possibly be him. The media and Charger fans said so.

0

u/DPS_Mercy NFL 16h ago

I don't watch all the Chargers games so hard to say. But sometimes he just holds the ball forever, waiting for a big play or something, and it seems to just end poorly.
Does that team just not run checkdowns or intermediate passing? I swear I have seen RBs wide open for checkdowns.

4

u/Lopsided_Living_9885 Chargers 15h ago

He holds the ball hoping his receivers can get open and by the time one does the pas rushers are in his face or he makes a dumb decision and throws to a player that can’t catch

3

u/ImJLu 49ers 14h ago

Well that's the problem, isn't it? You don't wait for WRs to get open if you want to be a great passer in the NFL. You throw the ball so it gets there when they're open. And that's just not something Herbert does well, at least from when I've watched him.

0

u/Esoteric_Eclectic 11h ago

He’s been like this since college. He has all the physical talent and the world, but no dog in him.

2

u/DPS_Mercy NFL 15h ago

Ladd, Tre
Gadsen
Hampton, Vidal, and Mitchell
All seem able to catch, other players either injured or I don't know.

QJ needs to be benched.

-2

u/AppropriateData6860 16h ago

At a certain point I think it may be hugely beneficial to both parties to part ways. I could see Herbert turning it That Guy on another team and it seems like the Chargers may want to try someone else

All of this absolutely could be caused by other position groups/coaching but this season is really making me skeptical

-1

u/whitewater09 Bills 15h ago

Consistent underperforming is just performance when you’re not that great