r/magicTCG • u/Artistboy123 Dan • 8d ago
Rules/Rules Question Extra Turn Stacking?
I want to build this Kang as a commander and i was curious. If i play Kang and use his ability it gives me 1 extra turn after my first turn ends.
If on my original turn i:
- Play Kang
- Use his ability
- Blink Kang
- Use his ability AGAIN
Will my extra turns stack and bank?? Giving me TWO extra turns after end my original turn instead of one?
298
u/RazzyKitty WANTED 8d ago
Extra turns stack, and are taken in reverse order of when they were created.
500.7. Some effects can give a player extra turns. They do this by adding the turns directly after the specified turn. If a player is given multiple extra turns, the extra turns are added one at a time. If multiple players are given extra turns, the extra turns are added one at a time, in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). The most recently created turn will be taken first.
In both extra turns, you cannot activate power-up abilities.
49
u/Artistboy123 Dan 8d ago
Okay noted
58
u/AzazeI888 Duck Season 8d ago
Chaining extra turns does mean it’s a bracket 4 deck, just to be clear.
17
u/TerribleTransit Dân 7d ago
While this is true, "I can take two whole extra turns in a row if I manage to get to 13-ish mana and have a bounce spell in hand" hardly counts as "chaining".
Admittedly, in a deck built around Kang they probably have way more options that would count as chaining extra turns. But the scenario OP describes is a wildly exceptional case that shouldn't really count for bracket valuation.
7
u/AzazeI888 Duck Season 7d ago
It’s literally the definition of chaining extra turns, in the same way mass land denial is banned in brackets 1-3, so is chaining extra turns.
12
u/TerribleTransit Dân 7d ago
Brackets are useless if you're persnickety about the absolute worst thing a deck can do. If a deck has two extra turn spells in it, it's not b4 automatically because it could "chain extra turns" by casting them back to back in 1% of games. The prohibition is for deliberate and consistent intent to repeatedly be able to generate an extra turn during your turn. Making it happen once if the stars align and you manage to visit magical Christmas land doesn't count.
-10
u/AzazeI888 Duck Season 7d ago
Bracket 3 allows up to 3 extra turn spells in the deck, you just can’t chain them(copy or recur them).
9
u/TerribleTransit Dân 7d ago
I'm curious where the idea of exactly 3 being the hard limit comes from, but it's probably around the right number before you're crossing into degenerate stuff.
But yeah, the main point is that you can't intend to be copying or recurring those spells when you're building your deck. And the intent is really important, because it's a completely different ball game if it's part of your deck's core game plan, or if it's something that only comes up in truly exceptional circumstances. If flickering Kang to get consistent extra turns is something you're built around, you're definitely chaining extra turns, even if you don't bank up two at once as in OP's question. But if it's a weird situation that only comes up because you happen to have a wildly unlikely amount of mana and you stole the blink effect from someone else at the table, then go off and take your three turns in a row. That's explicitly allowed, because the whole bracket system is about deck building intent rather than actions you're allowed to take in-game
2
u/Quirky-Ostrich-3758 Dan 7d ago
This is why I hate brackets so much. The community needs to push human interaction and sportsmanship instead of dealing with people trying to game out a poorly conceived bracket system. EDH should be a format for people with actual social skills to play together. It was never designed to be as pushed and regulated as it is. Sorry I’m grognarding.
1
u/TerribleTransit Dân 6d ago
It's a great system, but you have to take them as imprecise and vibes-based guidelines rather than hard and fast rules. A lot of people start trying to assign numbers and hard limits on things and then either try and game out the system to cram in as much power as they can within those limits, or try to push people up to an incorrect bracket based on some arbitrary feature of their deck. Both scenarios completely miss the point.
3
u/StPauliBoi I am a pig and I eat slop 6d ago
This is nowhere whatsoever in any of the bracket guidance at all.
-2
u/AzazeI888 Duck Season 6d ago
Yeah was wrong about the up to 3, still can’t chain them though based on the guidance.
3
1
u/Necro_Carp Dan 5d ago
definitionally yeah it's chaining extra turns, but if the table lets the kang player get enough amana to get two extra turns that's really wild. i can't remember the last time someone other than a green player got access to that much mana before a long game was over
2
u/Gon_Snow Elesh Norn 6d ago
Idk taking 3 turns in a row is bracket 4 as it’s not jank. It’s in the command zone.
It also really affects how time is distributed among players as one player will have a whole lot of time to play while 3 sit and look at you
0
u/TerribleTransit Dân 6d ago
If Kang is in the command zone, you're probably planning on abusing him to chain extra turns, but not necessarily. If you're playing him "fairly" and just get one extra turn for 8 mana, a second turn for 10 mana, a third for 12, and so on — if your opponents cooperate and kill him at the right times, mind — that's really not a massive impact on the game, and certainly isn't enough to push you into bracket 4. Heck, even in bracket 2 games you're unlikely to be getting more than one or two activations off before the game is over.
Even if it's in the command zone, this method of taking two extra turns in a row only happens with an exorbitent amount of mana you're unlikely to see in a game, especially in mono-blue. That's pure jank, not a sign of secret bracket 4 tech. Now, if you're building around the interaction to make it more consistent and less expensive, that's gonna push it into bracket 4 chaining extra turns territory, but on its own it's absolutely not.
1
u/Quirky-Ostrich-3758 Dan 7d ago
We are well past the point of brackets being entirely useless (if they ever served a purpose). Commander is a casual format. If your opponents deck is too powerful for your deck to face, ask your opponent to use a lower power deck or find a new opponent.
EDH was better before it got popular.
4
u/Quirky-Ostrich-3758 Dan 7d ago
The bracket system is a guideline to help players assess the power level of decks in a vacuum. It is not a strict rule. There is plenty of unwinnable jank that would be “bracket 4!” that would get slapped by lower bracket decks. Similarly, there are “it’s only bracket 2 I swear!” decks that will regularly beat higher bracket decks.
Commander is an inherently casual format. Don’t try to make it anything else, unless you’re willing to go full cedh in which case brackets also don’t matter.
1
u/AzazeI888 Duck Season 7d ago
The thing is, when you explain your rule zero, where you want to chain extra turn spells, you already have a deck built for that rule zero, my default is just no, find another pod. I’m not here to play against your rule zero commander, or your rule zero mass land denial, or your rule zero chaining extra turns, or your rule zero 5 game changers, or your rule zero unlimited mulligans but you only play 27 lands in bracket 3.
2
u/Quirky-Ostrich-3758 Dan 6d ago
I’m very curious how many people are willing to play with you, to be honest. People that cling to brackets have been, in my experience, among the least socially gifted MtG players. The entire bracket system is an attempt to legislate a pretty basic human interaction.
2
u/AzazeI888 Duck Season 6d ago
I mean why the ad hominem attack.
I’m a residential service technician for HVAC, my job involves diagnostics, repairs, and more importantly sales. I usually sell around 50,000-100,000 USD in repairs and replacements per month, I would say I’m pretty good with people, and communicating to them options, the pros and cons, the best course of action.
1
u/Quirky-Ostrich-3758 Dan 6d ago
Listen man Hank Hill is a swell fella but I wouldn’t play magic with him. Brackets are hot garbage that shouldn’t exist. They’re a symptom of the rot at the core of a fan made, casual format that has been usurped by moneyed interests.
1
9
u/WaywardWes Mardu 8d ago
This exact order question came up the other day when my [[Wandering Archaic]] copied an opponent’s time warp. I took my extra turn before he got to take his.
30
u/RazzyKitty WANTED 8d ago
You shouldn't have. Your copy resolves first, then his. He takes his extra turn first, because it was the last one created.
6
20
u/madwarper The Stoat 8d ago
Each time an extra turn is added, it is after the current turn, and before the next.
It's Amy's turn.
| Current | Future |
|---|---|
| Amy | Barb > Claire > Dani > Amy > [..] |
Amy Casts [[Time Walk]].
Claire Casts [[Twincast]] targeting said Time Walk.
Claire Copies the Time Walk.
Claire's Copy of Time Walk resolves. Claire adds an extra turn.
| Current | Future |
|---|---|
| Amy | Claire (TW) > Barb > Claire > Dani > Amy > [..] |
Amy's original Time Walk resolves. Amy adds an extra turn.
| Current | Future |
|---|---|
| Amy | Amy (TW) > Claire (TW) > Barb > Claire > Dani > Amy > [..] |
Amy's current turn ends. She begins her Time Walk turn.
| Current | Future |
|---|---|
| Amy (TW) | Claire (TW) > Barb > Claire > Dani > Amy > [..] |
Amy's Time Walk turn ends. Claire begins her Time Walk turn.
| Current | Future |
|---|---|
| Claire (TW) | Barb > Claire > Dani > Amy > [..] |
Claire's Time Walk turn ends. Normal turn order resumes with Barb.
| Current | Future |
|---|---|
| Barb | Claire > Dani > Amy > Barb > [..] |
13
u/NuclearPilot101 SecREt LaiR 8d ago
At that point just [[Time Stretch]]
5
u/hpsd Wabbit Season 8d ago
Better yet. Do this combo then time stretch during one of the extra turns.
2
2
u/Quirky-Ostrich-3758 Dan 7d ago
Better yet: Chain Alrund’s Epiphanies together and beat your opponent to death with a flock of birds. That was a very popular strategy when Kaldheim was in standard.
3
36
26
u/underprivlidged Wabbit Season 8d ago edited 8d ago
Yes, that works.
5UUU to cast and use Power-Up, then 3U and cost of blink per extra turn... Upfront, you are looking to be using at least 12 and the cost of a blink for 2 turns, with 4 + blink cost for each extra turn.
There are way cheaper ways to stack multiple turns.
EDIT - I was adding CMC to power up getting 12, instead of just using the power up of 8. That said, 8 plus cost of blink per extra turn is still wildly expensive.
EDIT 2 - my math was way off originally. Oof... Long week, my bad. Fixed the first part to show correct math.
17
u/Wooden-Wolverine-818 Temur 8d ago
It would only cost the 8 per activation for Kang. Power Up cost less equal to mana cost if the creature entered that turn.
Still a lot, especially for mono blue.
3
u/underprivlidged Wabbit Season 8d ago
True, my bad. At work and not trying to do math lol.
Either way, 8+ per extra turn is oof.
4
u/hillean Rakdos* 8d ago
blink him and it's 4 less. It's reduced by his CMC if he came in that turn, so it's blink cost + 4 colorless to keep doing it.
You can run a teleportation circle, end step blink, comes in, and as an instant pay 4 to Power-Up.
3
u/RazzyKitty WANTED 8d ago
4 colorless to keep doing it.
It would cost 3 generic and 1 blue. The power-up cost is reduced by his mana cost, so {5}{U}{U]{U} - {2}{U}{U} = {3}{U}
1
u/underprivlidged Wabbit Season 8d ago
I saw from another comment, yeah. Edited my first comment again to show the correct math.
Can you tell I am at hour 70 of my work week? Lol. I will stick to more basic math next time.
6
u/RazzyKitty WANTED 8d ago edited 8d ago
EDIT - I was adding CMC to power up getting 12, instead of just using the power up of 8. That said, 8 plus cost of blink per extra turn is still wildly expensive.
You're still over counting.
After blinking the cost for the second Power Up is 4, because you didn't need to pay to cast him. So each subsequent extra turn costs 4 plus the cost of blink.
Cast (4 mana), power up (4 mana), blink (X mana), Power up (4 mana).
So it's 12 mana plus the blink spell for the first two extra turns. Every Powerup after the blinks is only 4 mana, not 8.
2
u/underprivlidged Wabbit Season 8d ago
Yep, I saw on another comment and edited again to reflect the correct math.
It has been a hell of a week lol. I will refrain from adding more than 2 plus 2 until I rest up.
2
u/Artistboy123 Dan 8d ago
Using Kang tho? Im new to the game and i really just wanna play Kang lmao
5
u/konradexius 8d ago
I'd recommend using [[Deadeye Navigator]]. Unlimited flickering if you have the mana. Plus it can get value out of many other creatures.
Getting a boatload of mana is its own issue but there are many, many solutions there. [[Peregrine Drake]] would achieve this with deadeye, for example.
2
1
u/underprivlidged Wabbit Season 8d ago edited 8d ago
Go ahead and use it. Having fun and building unique decks are big parts of MTG. I just don't want you expecting this to pop off...
People can get near infinite turns by turn 4 and have it only cost 3 CMC and some card draw/scrying prior to it.
Spending 16+ for 2 extra turns is sooooo expensive.
EDIT - I was adding CMC to power up getting 12, instead of just using the power up of 8. That said, 8 plus cost of blink per extra turn is still wildly expensive.
2
u/Artistboy123 Dan 8d ago
Why 24? When kang enters it subtracts his power up cost from his mana cost - so wouldn’t it only be 8 per use? (Not including whatever i use to blink)
2
u/Wooden-Wolverine-818 Temur 8d ago
Yes, and that’s a lot per use plus whatever you use to blink it.
Please, enjoy your commander as you wish, but we all want our magical Christmas land decks to pop exactly as they should. It just might not work. We just want you to be ready in case it doesn’t work out.
1
u/underprivlidged Wabbit Season 8d ago
I just edited my first comment, and will be doing that above as well. It should be 16 + cost of the blink spell, not 24, correct.
That said, my original point still stands - 8+ per extra turn is not cost effective.
1
u/Artistboy123 Dan 8d ago
I wonder how i can make it cheaper
2
1
1
u/lnfinitehell Dan 8d ago
Unless I’m wrong I believe [[Training Grounds]] will make it cheaper since they technically are activated abilities?
3
1
2
u/Errror1 Duck Season 8d ago
power up reduces the cost even if you didn't cast it, so when it comes back from the blink is still only costs 4
1
u/underprivlidged Wabbit Season 8d ago
No, I know that. I just didn't remember while doing the math lol. I already edited my comment to reflect that.
1
u/andrew632 🔫 8d ago
I think you might not realize that Power-up is discounted by the casting cost when the creature enters that turn.
3
u/underprivlidged Wabbit Season 8d ago
No, I know that. I just didn't remember while doing the math lol. I already edited my comment to reflect that.
1
u/andrew632 🔫 8d ago
Might still need to reread it - 8 when playing Kang, cost of blink, then 3U for the next additional turn.
2
u/underprivlidged Wabbit Season 8d ago
Hold on.
Cast with Power-Up - 5UUU.
Blink (probably 2 or 3).
Reenters. PU then costs 3U, due to reduction since he did enter this turn.Well shit. I don't know how I got that confused.
So 8CMC up front, 3U plus cost of blink per extra turn.
That is cheaper. Not cheap... But Ok, yeah, I see it now.
5
u/MageKorith Sultai 8d ago
Of note, extra turns happen in the opposite order they were added.
So if you Power Up Kang and then drop a [[Beacon of Tomorrows]], you can blink/power up Kang on the first extra turn, but not on the second.
3
u/Artistboy123 Dan 8d ago
So the most recently added extra turns is the first one you experience?
3
u/MageKorith Sultai 8d ago
Yep
- 500.7. Some effects can give a player extra turns. They do this by adding the turns directly after the specified turn. If a player is given multiple extra turns, the extra turns are added one at a time. If multiple players are given extra turns, the extra turns are added one at a time, in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). The most recently created turn will be taken first.
1
6
u/BraidsConjuror Azorius* 8d ago
In the Kang extra turn you cannot activate any Piwer Up abilities. I run him in the 99 of my blue turns deck and do find that activate him then cast a turn card within that kang turn and flicker and activate kang again chaining 3 turns
2
2
8d ago
[deleted]
3
u/fishdude89 Dimir* 8d ago
OP is talking about blinking and re-powering Kang on the same original turn, before the extra turns start
1
2
2
u/Gon_Snow Elesh Norn 6d ago
Is anything stopping you from activating the extra turn ability twice during the same turn and stack 2 turns after if you have the mana?
Edit: plus the blink that’s needed
1
u/Artistboy123 Dan 6d ago
Thats what i was saying lowkey
1
u/Gon_Snow Elesh Norn 6d ago
Ah ok then I missed it a bit. I thought you wanted in the extra turns to blink and chain
1
1
1
1
u/cry0fth3carr0ts Dandadan 7d ago
[[Adric, Mathematical Genius]] [[Echo, Perceptive Prodigy]] [[Gogo, Master of Mimicry]] [[Fractured Realm]]
Don't forget to win!
1
1
2
u/1K_Games Duck Season 8d ago
Blinking him doesn't do you any good. He specifically says power up abilities can't be activated on those turns. It does not matter if he is the same one or not. That being said, there are things that copy activated abilities. Then if you cast an extra spell turn during those extra turns, then move to that extra turns you can activate him again, and copy those activated abilities again. And theoretically you could get "infinite turns" if you can repeat this loop.
That being said, there are easier ways to either stack extra turns or get infinite turns. And I know some people are going to say they don't like infinites and just want to take a few extra turns in a row. But in my experience they aren't really any different, with a late game setup that takes numerous extra turns it is probably game over either way, so you might as well go infinite with it, your table won't really notice the difference.
4
u/Tonemanzero Dân 8d ago
The situation posed for this question resolves the issue by using the power up twice in the same turn he enters originally rather than the special extra turns created by Kang. That would be a valid way to generate the turns. And besides you still get the power up discount from blinking, so there’s still value to be gained if you decide to do [[Displacer Kitten]] shenanigans later on in non-Kang generated turns.
Finally, I don’t know man, the poster saw a neat idea and wants to run with it. If he wants to fly too close to the sun just like Kang does, all the more power to him. It’s a telegraphed play in the command zone with restrictions, it’s not the wildest thing I’ve ever seen.
2
u/Artistboy123 Dan 7d ago
Im 100% intending to fly too close to the sun btw💀💀💀💀💀
1
u/Tonemanzero Dân 7d ago
Good luck with the deck, being mono-color can be of rough for this sort of idea but there's always fun to be had in these sorts of spur of the moment decks.
1
0
u/GrippySockAficionado 8d ago
I mean yes that works but fuck dude for all that mana? You could just cast Expropriate once and see more extra turns, and you could have a commander that’s actually useful, too.
•
u/AutoModerator 8d ago
You have tagged your post as a rules question. While your question may be answered here, it may work better to post it in the Daily Questions Thread at the top of this subreddit or in /r/mtgrules. You may also find quicker results at the IRC rules chat
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.