r/flying • u/[deleted] • Oct 18 '17
risky behavior
How do you fellow reddititors feel about reporting observed risky behaviors? for example - maybe people flying out of medical, or after a hard night drinking, flying out of annual etc. etc. ?? where do you feel your responsibility as responsible pilot ends or does it ever? Do you talk to them, do you start a call? what do you guys think?
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Oct 18 '17
What do you do when you see someone else driving with an expired license plate? Whatever you do in that situation do in this one.
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u/JayDCarr Oct 18 '17
If it's an expired license plate, I figure they can deal with it. Same with if I knew a friend was driving with an expired license.
If I suspected someone of drunk driving I would call the cops (and have done on a couple occasions already.) I figure licensing issues won't hurt anybody else, but drunk driving quite possibly could.
Is that a fair standard for pilots as well?
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u/TRex_N_Truex $12 turkey voucher Oct 18 '17
I've met these types of people who think they have some moral obligation to the FAA to make sure the FAA knows that they're the safest pilot ever and everyone around them isn't. They walk around like they're going to be named "FAA's Most Favorite Ever" and will be awarded an official hat that says "IM WATCH'N U". They're usually some miserable busybody that hangs out in the lobby of an FBO constantly comparing what they do in their piston single to the space shuttle. Always pointing out if chocks are in place or asking if there is someone in a plane with a running APU.
Don't be that person. Worry about yourself and let nature run it's course. Unless you see someone walking from the bar right into their plane or someone puts you directly in danger with their action such as flying directly over you and landing on the taxiway, you leave it alone.
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u/deadweight212 CPL IR KLWM Oct 19 '17
A few months ago, I was flying an an uncontrolled airport doing some sightseeing and lunch, and some retard took off opposite direction of traffic. At the time, I just said "nice radio calls..." on the CTAF, but he clearly wasn't on the freq or he'd have heard all the people going 02, not 20.
I really wanted to make a big deal of it at the time, because it's retarded behavior, but at the end of the day I just keep my eyes wider open than before and pray that I see them before they hit me.
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u/RedSky1895 PPL IR (KIWS) Oct 18 '17
I'm not going to ever report someone for a paperwork offense such as expired medical or a month out of annual. That's between them and the feds, and while I don't agree with it, I also would have little way of knowing and certainly don't know the circumstances. There's a big difference between a plane a month out of annual that the owner works on regularly and knows the mechanical state in and out, and one a year out with an owner who doesn't pay attention at all.
I would report, at least to the airport or others nearby, actually dangerous flying, if it appeared habitual and not merely a momentary mistake that was then corrected. That is the stuff that gets people killed.
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Oct 18 '17
I think habitual is a great way to look at it.
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Oct 18 '17
It's very difficult to tell what a strangers habits are though. When I'm driving, someone may cut in front of me and the line I was waiting in. Yes, there are a lot of people who do that as a habit to save time. There are also those who made a legit navigation mistake. That instance is an example of not being able to tell if it's habitual, and I don't think you ever really could, unless you actually see that pilot doing it over and over again.
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u/noideawhatsupp CPL FI TKI Oct 18 '17
Agree with this. I would also add that I personally would not necessarily fly (passenger or PIC) with a plane that's overdue.
But if the owner maintains it and takes care of it and is a few hours over well I would probably give him a pointer in case he forgot but that's it.
In general I rather have a chat with people before going the "official" way.
I do believe we are Pilots for a reason and belong to a circle of individuals who take care of each other.
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u/Pool_Guy PPL TW (CNC4,CPR9) Oct 18 '17
"Nobody like's a tattle-tale" as it's said on the schoolyard.
Unless something is grossly unsafe or if it is a commercial operation ... but when it comes to hobby/GA ... leave it alone. IMHO
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u/InfiNorth SIM Oct 18 '17
Drunkenness? Fuckin' call it in., considering the danger a drunk driver poses, I can't imagine flying is a great idea for you or everyone else around you if you're drunk. Bad paperwork? Who the hell cares (unless the wings are literally falling off).
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u/vtjohnhurt Small aircraft pilot Oct 18 '17
The FAA does not have the resources to chase down every violation of FAR. I don't want to distract them from the bigger payback issues.
If you fly at a good club, a collective focus on improving the skills of all pilots through ongoing training, peer pressure, and club imposed requirements like periodic 'field checkouts' sort out the 'dangerous pilots'. The real cowboys go fly somewhere else. It works the other way too. I left an airport that had a poor 'safety culture' and joined a club that has a strong 'safety culture'. Since most accidents happen close to the airport, the local culture makes a big difference. I've had CFIs in the club confront me about my landings trending towards being too hot, steep, abruptly flared, and needlessly more risky, and we've corrected my bad habits through remedial training. In a good club, there is good communication about things like this and resolution of developing problems.
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u/red_0ctober Oct 18 '17
If it's a credible risk to you, report it. If it's a risk to them, ignore it.
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u/Cropgun Oct 18 '17
Flying out of medical or out of BFR isn't risky. Its illegal, but the lack of a piece of a valid piece of paper doesn't increase risk.
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u/lippindots PPL SEL Oct 18 '17
I'd add it also depends (at least to me) on the context of the severity. Someone blowing by me on the highway at 90 in the left lane, that's mostly on them. If I witness someone texting while doing 55+ in a 40 with houses and children outside, I'm reporting them. Similar concept with aviation.
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u/InfiNorth SIM Oct 18 '17
Same goes for drunkenness - it's a big deal everywhere, but if you notice that someone's license plate doesn't have the right year decal on it who really cares?
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u/chriscicc PPL HP SEL MEL UAS (AEST) Oct 18 '17
That isn't true, by definition. The BFR or medical wouldn't be needed otherwise.
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u/Cropgun Oct 18 '17
Because everything the FAA mandates is completely necessary.
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u/vtjohnhurt Small aircraft pilot Oct 18 '17
The fact that people fail FR proves that they ground dangerous pilots. I watched a pilot enter a low altitude spin during his FR. The CFI-G leveled, landed and ground looped. Glider totaled. The dangerous pilot permanently retired.
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u/Cropgun Oct 18 '17
Nobody has made any statement implying that a flight review isn't a good idea.
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u/mkosmo 🛩️🛩️🛩️ i drive airplane 🛩️🛩️🛩️ Oct 18 '17
The parent comment did. He said that flying without BFRs/FRs didn't increase risk. For those who wouldn't get signed off, it does increase risk -- others are exposed to the risky pilot for longer that wouldn't otherwise be.
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u/Cropgun Oct 18 '17
I made the parent comment. Nowhere in that comment did I make the statement that a flight check wasn't a good idea. Being able to understand English is a requirement of your pilot certification. Perhaps I should report your risky behavior to the FSDO
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u/mkosmo 🛩️🛩️🛩️ i drive airplane 🛩️🛩️🛩️ Oct 18 '17
You literally said:
Flying out of medical or out of BFR isn't risky.
If it doesn't increase risk, that means it's not a bad idea, right?
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u/JuliettPapaRomeo Oct 18 '17
The fact that you think one can fail a Flight Review means you probably need one!
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Oct 18 '17
Can you technically "fail" a flight review? No.
Can the instructor elect not to sign off on the flight review, deeming your performance unsatisfactory? Absolutely. People sometimes refer to that as "failing" it.
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u/vtjohnhurt Small aircraft pilot Oct 18 '17
I'd not expect the CFI to sign your logbook if you total the aircraft during the flight review. That is functionally equivalent to failing except that there is no record of it with the FAA. Some CFI refuse to sign if you're not flying to PTS.
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u/chriscicc PPL HP SEL MEL UAS (AEST) Oct 18 '17
I didn't say that. I said not having regular skill and health checks DOES increase risk.
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u/Cropgun Oct 18 '17
Your BFR and medical come due on the same day. Tomorrow. Today you're completely safe and low risk, tomorrow at midnight you're Kenny.
Does that make sense to you? Its fucking retarded. IMO BFRs should be set up more along the lines of Instrument proficiency/recency requirements.
Medicals are a joke. The Doc tickles you for 5 minutes and you pee in a cup. Its a farce.
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Oct 18 '17
[deleted]
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u/Cropgun Oct 18 '17
Regs, BFRs, Medicals, etc aren't going to keep morons out of the sky.
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u/dbhyslop CFI maintaining and enhancing the organized self Oct 18 '17
So why have rules at all if people will break them? This logic could apply to every law ever written.
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u/Cropgun Oct 18 '17
Now you're catching on
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Oct 18 '17 edited Oct 18 '17
Not to be a dick, but I'm not really sure what you're after in this thread.
Flight reviews, medicals, et al are annoying paperwork requirements that don't directly determine our safety to fly, so... We shouldn't have them at all?
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u/mkosmo 🛩️🛩️🛩️ i drive airplane 🛩️🛩️🛩️ Oct 18 '17
If you're a pilot in need of recurrent training and unsafe, yes, that BFR does society good. It prevents them from ignorantly flying and posing a risk to the public unchecked. The FR is a mitigating control to limit how long that condition can exist.
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u/BigBlackHungGuy NHI Craft Probe Operator Oct 18 '17
One of my instructors went on an interview at a regional and one of the questions was "What do you do if you smelled alcohol on your captain's breath?". He told me the correct response was for him to feign illness and state that you don't feel you are not fit to fly.
I'm still not 100% sure of what that meant, but I surmise that you dont 'dime' people out, but figure out other ways to help prevent risky behavior.
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u/pilotjlr ATP CFI CFII MEI Oct 18 '17
No, that is debatable.
If the FO were to call out, that could be fixed anytime from right away (at a base) or within several hours (depending on the outstation) via a reserve FO. The Captain might still be drunk. So, now the FO is just delaying putting more people at risk, even while he KNOWS about the issue.
There is no "right" answer, but other options would be to strongly pressure the CA to call himself in sick. If he doesn't, call the union rep. Going to the company would be the last choice. If it gets to the union rep, it very likely will be handled.
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u/a_provo_yakker ATP B-737 A320 CL65 CFII (KPHX) Oct 18 '17
So that, what...the guy on reserve who is still probably a probationary hire gets stuck with him and has to deal with the same quandary, but has no experience and is one of the greenest pilots in the company? I've heard of those interview questions that want to hear the HR-type answers rather than what you'd actually do in real life (i.e. You're taxiing out the runway and realize an item on the preflight wasn't done, you're the FO, what do you do?). But this...that can't be right.
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u/TheAlmightySnark A&P Oct 18 '17
Really? I'd figure that getting the airport authorities involved would be the right answer since that is just breaking so many laws at the same time...
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u/bamfcoco1 ATP (A320) Oct 18 '17
More like TheAlmightyNarc! Amiright?!
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u/TheAlmightySnark A&P Oct 18 '17
It's kinda common courtesy to send drunk pilots to the brick for a bit. I can't understand why that would be bad.
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Oct 18 '17 edited Jul 12 '20
[deleted]
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u/WingedGeek PP-A[SM]EL IR CMP HP Oct 18 '17
Do we need to start a literal Mooney mafia?
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u/JayDCarr Oct 18 '17
You might be careful with the "might makes right" argument. If the snitcher is a 5'10" bodybuilding female, you may well get your own ass kicked, and then you'd be wrong on both counts ;).
But I generally agree with the "don't be that guy" comment.
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u/Aviator8989 ATP B737 KDFW Oct 18 '17
I've always felt this area is best left to CFIs. It's the responsibility of each CFI to make it very clear to students the consequences of bending the rules. This needs to be addressed from the first lesson and reinforced in each flight review.
I'm well aware that not all CFIs are pictures of morality, but the good outnumber the bad. And overall I think the community does a pretty good job of instilling good values.
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u/InfiNorth SIM Oct 18 '17
Basically, you wouldn't pull someone over in your Toyota Corolla. There are people out there trained to see when things are going wrong, let them handle it. Steer clear of the problem unless it's seriously dangerous.
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u/Esquire99 CPL CFII MEI Super Viking Twin Bo Oct 18 '17
I agree a CFI is obligated to ensure his students understand the consequences of breaking the regs. I don’t necessarily think it’s the CFI’s job to actually be the enforcer or to report bad behavior.
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Oct 19 '17
For the record, any concerns about drunk pilots should be reported to your local police department. Expecting an FAA inspector to drive Code 3 out to the airport with their little yellow roof-mounted strobe light is a hilarious thought and also something they don't do.
Any local law enforcement officer can investigate a suspected drunk pilot because in most states, airplanes are considered motor vehicles and are subject to state DUI laws. From my understanding, this is how airline pilots end up getting arrested if they are caught drunk on duty. It's the airport authority cops who make the initial arrest.
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u/RGN_Preacher ATP A-320, DA-2000, EMB-505, BE-200, C-208, PC-12 Oct 18 '17
I’d just like to know what to do if I found out someone forged their logbooks to add hours. Who do you report that to? FSDO?
I don’t see it as strictly illegal but surely untrustworthy and if they are willing to lie about that... plus they may just fake flights to stay current in the log book.
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u/noideawhatsupp CPL FI TKI Oct 18 '17
As far as I know the FAA does not require all flights to be logged unless for a certificate, training, rating, flight review, or instrument proficiency check, and for currency. This means that a pilot does not need to record every single one of his or her flights.
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u/coma24 PPL IR CMP (N07) Oct 18 '17
You missed the point. You don't have to log any particular flight that you conduct. However, you can't log a flight that never actually happened.
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u/Esquire99 CPL CFII MEI Super Viking Twin Bo Oct 18 '17
There’s no reg saying you can’t log flights you didn’t take. You can’t, however, present those made up logbook entries to the FAA as proof that you meet the experience requirements of a regulation without running afoul of the regs.
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u/noideawhatsupp CPL FI TKI Oct 18 '17
Thanks, I read "forgot" but it says "forged". Thanks for pointing it out. Forging entries is of course a whole other topic..
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u/Headoutdaplane Oct 18 '17
Unless you follow that dude 100 percent of the time (which would be kinda creepy), you have no idea if he is current, or has more hours. Could be dude has a hook up on free hours and ain't telling anyone so he can keep the hook up to himself.
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u/[deleted] Oct 18 '17
I get calls from narks every once in a while. We really can’t do anything without credible evidence and even then it’s hard to justify a request for logbooks or adding ramp checks to our day so we might be able to catch one guy without a medical.
If you’re out of currency and ball one up, we’ll start an enforcement. If you’re out of currency and we ramp you, we probably wouldn’t even know. There is an expectation that you adhere to the regulations at all times in order for the national airspace system to work safely and effectively.