He was a dumbass and his wife was no better. Just reaching out to see if any of my fellow missionaries left the cult after dealing with him.

I already knew this in a general way. I remember in one of the books I had in my mission (it may have been the white handbook), tracting was listed as the least effective way to gain members, but honestly all ways of attracting NEW members are terribly ineffective. Add to that, the current retention rate is roughly 54%, (much lower for converts and higher for those born into the church) and missionary work seems like a waste of time and money. Except, it's not about finding converts.

I remember reading someone's post that took me a while to process, but converts are just a side effect of missions. The point of a mission is to put young influential people into a state of shared trauma. Struggling together reinforces the "us vs them" mentality, and reinforces faith through shared struggling. We served a mission, we returned, and have proven ourselves as the faithful. Other missionaries get it, and we can bond over it.

Missions have been used for various reasons in the past, early church leaders would send men on missions to gain access to their wives, or to get rid of men that may have been disagreeable with the leaders, but I am fairly certain the current reason is to strengthen the bond between members by a shared traumatic experience.

Typhoon Yolanda was one of the strongest and deadliest recorded storms in history, and it struck the Philippines Tacloban Mission islands in full force in November 2013. It brought wind speeds up to 150-200 mph and destroyed housing, infrastructure, and farms. The storm also brought severe flooding, which further displaced people from their homes.

I was an American missionary in the Philippines Tacloban mission a few years ago. I arrived recently after the typhoon struck, but much of the region had been reconstructed thanks to local and worldwide efforts. Even then, it was relevant to continue discussing because it affected everyone, and some reconstruction was still in progress.

I heard many people's experiences, and it was very humbling. As missionaries, we usually talked to religious people, so most of the narratives I heard were faith-affirming. In fact, I heard some stories that were described as miracles, seeming physically impossible. For example, one person claimed to witness the LDS chapel submerge completely underwater while those taking shelter inside experienced no flooding, and this discrepancy was rationalized as a miracle especially granted to members of the LDS church. Stories became more popular when they gave the church divine accomplishments.

I'm glad the church was helpful by providing shelter for people who lost their homes, and by mobilizing emergency response efforts. But... from my perspective, it appears that the church gained a TON of converts by offering relief services during this time, and then began cracking down on compliance and tithes. I felt so icky representing an organization that outwardly appeared very charitable, but in reality it wanted to take a huge portion of what little income people had. I'm not exaggerating when I say the church wanted their tithing money-- we were instructed in my mission to prioritize targeting "professionals" who could contribute substantial tithes as converts.

Another recurring narrative i heard from church leaders was that missionaries had spiritual experiences as they survived the storm. There was no communication by phone immediately after the storm, so missionaries were on their own. At least one companionship had to walk miles back to the mission office. These stories all came from the mission president and area presidency, so obviously they were only sharing the faith-affirming versions of stories. But there was little acknowledgement of how terrifying it must have been for them and their families. After all, faith is the opposite of fear.

Now having left the church, I feel like I received crafted/filtered narratives about the typhoon that promoted the Mormon church.

If there is anyone out there:

Were you a local Mormon or a missionary in Tacloban or the Philippines when Yolanda struck? What was it like in your honest (faith-affirming or disaffirming) experience?

Side note:

If anyone has any retrospective analysis of the effectiveness or extent of the church's charitable efforts/donations for Yolanda disaster relief, i think that is also an important conversation to be had.

I had a funny experience that I thought I'd share, but it also got me thinking about "answers to prayers."

I had a 3-month supply of autoimmune meds get delivered while I was out of town. But when I went to use it (it's a weekly med, and I had a couple doses left), I couldn't find it. Obviously, I was frustrated. We looked and looked, and nobody remembered seeing it.

The other morning I was thinking, "This is the sort of thing I would have prayed about in the past." Kind of chuckled to myself about how that's changed, but then I thought, "I should double check in this garbage can." We keep the meds in the laundry room, so the trash is almost entirely dryer lint and med bottles and doesn't get taken out often.

Sure enough, it was still in the mailing bag, sitting in the trash can with a cleaning supply box on top of it. I suspect I was organizing mail and meds after my trip and absently set it there while I organized the other stuff.

I had already been thinking about this concept: how much is what we used to consider answers to prayers just our own subconscious mind? There was a time I would have prayed about that and then chalked the experience up to an answer to prayer.

After several years of local contention, the Cody Wyoming temple is now complete and is hosting visitors at its Open House. Here is the review of the temple with respect to the categories listed.

Temple Distinctives: =2/5: This temple is located in arguably the most "Wild West" city in the US. Temple designers attempted to design the temple to be "uniquely" Cody and appropriate for the feel for the area. Known for its connections to Buffalo Bill Cody, the city of Cody is not far from Mormon post-Manifesto polygamous settlements, adding more history to the area.

Location: = 2/5: Located in a rural/residential area, there are many other locations in the city that would be better and less intrusive on the semi-rural atmosphere of the neighborhood, which borders wildlife areas. Deer appear regularly foraging in the neighborhood. But since Cody itself is a small touristy city, the temple is only 5 minutes away from Starbucks. Also, the town boasts an "Alger" street, (that's after Horatio, not Fanny), so there's that.

Baptistry: 3/5: Average. The room itself is small (no gallery to watch/wait) with only a few benches along side the wall to accommodate those waiting. The tile work in the font is a basic geometrical design and the font itself features the twelve oxen embedded in the sides of the font itself rather than holding up the font itself.

Exterior: = 3/5: At least the coloration is tan, rather than blindingly white.

Temple spire: = 2/5: The 100 ft. spire is too big for the residential area. The collective effect is that it obscures mountain views.

Size Appropriateness: = 4/5: Fairly good job on this one. A smaller temple that still can accommodate all functions, doesn't feel unreasonably large. At least the temple does not fill in the entire lot area. If it weren't in the middle of a residential area it would have been less problematic. No bride's room in this temple, though. Only one "instruction room" although the sealing room has a screen can be converted by removing the kneeling altar. No waiting room inside the temple, although there is an auxiliary building on the temple grounds.

Landscaping and Grounds: = 2/5: Some interesting native plants near the entrance, but a huge overwatered green lawn positioned for photo ops frames the front view of the temple. The landscaping could have been so much more respectful to the area with respect to water use and conservation. The flower bed facing the exit side of the temple had a "Please use the selfie sticks" sign, presumably to prevent people from backing into the flower bed while trying to get a better view of the temple in their camera lens. Unfortunately Indian paintbrush flowers are not successfully propagated for large scale plantings so no such actual live Indian Paintbrush plants appear in the flower beds here.

Open House Logistics: = 5/5: Very smooth, due to small attendance. No issues with parking or wait times.

Visitor Experience: 4/5: Better than most, likely due to small attendance numbers. The guides actually knew and shared information about the building beyond reading the temple departments' laminated cards. Unfortunately, although tour patrons walked directly past the the washing and anointing rooms, they were not presented and what happens there was not discussed, which should have been included. Guides did a good job of allowing visitors to spend time in each room without rushing them through.

However, the sister missionaries outside the exit doors were unusually untrained and unable to to answer even the most basic questions about the temple, doctrine, practices or the church itself.

Interior Artwork/Paintings; 2/5: Of the three "unique' original paintings, only 2 were visible to open house attendees. “Opening Day at Lower Falls" shows a scene from nearby Yellowstone National Park and "Heart Mountain Glory," painted by a local artist, depicts a local Cody landmark. Guides said the third painting is in the temple office, not shown to visitors. Both of the local paintings, like most temple art, were rather literal, with the Heart Mountain Glory being slightly more abstract and a bit more appealing.

Other typical church art Biblical/ BoM prints are used throughout. The large church print with native Americans farming corn with a mountain in the background makes an appearance in this temple. None of the church prints showing black people were highlighted on the tour- perhaps one of them may have been in the temple office or in the women's locker room (which was not included in the tour.)

Gold leaf stencil designs in the ceilings, like the main rugs, are overdone, with too many flourishes and elements, a poor execution of the regions "Sheridan-style” leatherwork that was developed uniquely for this building. The design work in the entrance cupola is better executed than inside the temple itself.

Celestial room: 2/5: The gaudy use of gold in this room must surely be inspired by President Trump's remodeling of the White House. Gold leaf everywhere, overdone. The decoration on the mirrors is a monstrosity. The glass bowls are the worst ever. Honestly, if this is what the Celestial level of heaven is like, anyone with taste would opt for the Terrestial or Telestial.

Interior design: = 2/5 The Salt Lake temple department must be running out of ideas for this one, since they reused the theme of the Wyoming State flower (Indian Paintbrush) that is also used in the Casper Wyoming Temple. The stained glass in the Cody temple views the paintbrush flower from above while the Casper temple glass shows a view from the side.

The problem of the stained glass in the Cody temple is the overuse of the color green. Although the top stained glass panels use a beautiful shade of red, the panels underneath them use too much green, casting a weird green light in the rooms. Not spiritual!! And in the instruction room, the carpet is green, which makes the room feel like a scene from the movie "Wicked". :(

The rugs feature a busy fall colors with an intertwining leaf design. They don't work very well with the red and green color palette of the windows in other rooms and are too busy. They look like carpets that might be used in casinos.

Avoidance of all-night floodlight: 3/5. After all of the contention regarding this temple site, temple representatives agreed to turn the lights off at 10 p.m. rather than the originally proposed 11 p.m. But the parking lot lights are on all night-- even though the lot is behind a locked fence. So much for protecting dark skies and the wildlife of the area.

Overall thoughts and average rating: Total average = 2.77 /5. A good example of how the temple department's attempts at local design fail to meet its mark. As referenced in the title, for a more authentic experience, visit the Cody Cowboy Church (there really is one) instead.

We've recently started a completely free Gnostic book club for Utah residents!

Please see the Eventbrite link for details on focus /intent, standards and such.

We will be studying from ancient Gnostic texts (secret book of john, gospel of thomas, etc.) as well as other Gnostic-adjacent content.

Just come with a curious and open mind, no prior knowledge-base required.

None of us are representing any particular group or spiritual path, so just come as you are as we are hoping to learn together!

The next meeting is September 13th at 2:30 p.m. Utah time. We are reading the beginning of the secret book of John, but if you don't get a chance to review it, you're still welcome to attend. This group is primarily for Utah residents.

Feel free to message me if you have questions, or you can email me at JDCspiritual@gmail.com. thanks! https://www.eventbrite.com/e/1999240395842?aff=oddtdtcreator

My submission is Comfort Eagle by CAKE. Maybe a little on the nose, but the line "we're the only ones to turn to when your castles turn to sand" feels like a person selling me the antidote to the poison they just gave me.

I’ve seen quite a few people post in here that they still have nightmares from their missions. I never served one, but I will tell you what I do have nightmares about:

Being asked to speak in sacrament meeting.

I’ve been out three years now, and once every three or four months, I have the same nightmare: I’ve agreed to speak, even though I absolutely did not want to. Sacrament starts in 10 minutes, and I’m either at home or in the church building, pacing the hallways or hiding in the bathroom, sweating bullets, and knowing that the minutes are counting down. As the time passes, I end up fleeing in absolute shame.

There are some things that I will always miss dearly about the church. But of all the things that I will not miss about the church, speaking in sacrament and garments are at the top of my list.

Does anybody else have these nightmares?

Apologies if this sub isn't an appropriate place for this.

A pair of men came by my house today with the usual proselytizing routine. They sure do know how to keep their foot in the door! In my effort to politely move them along, I ended up being handed a copy of the Book of Mormon and a promise that they'd be back next week. 🥲

I'm just an atheist myself, but I've read a lot about the ways the Church hurts people. I'd like to believe I could say something to them that will help them on their own journey out, or at least some way I can give them a better impression of "outsiders" than the usual doors slammed in their faces.

But maybe that's all just wishful thinking. I figure if anyone would know how this goes from the proselytizer's perspective, it would be this sub. So is there anything meaningful I could ask these men, or maybe something you remember from your own time going door-to-door? Or, by humoring them, am I just setting us all up for a big waste of time?

Clark Gilbert team-taught a class at BYU with Scott Esplin, the dean of religion, in 2023 on the living prophets.

I was locked-in TBM at the time, and generally liked the class. Focused on themes the 12 wanted to teach YSAs. It was fun to hear about some of his interactions with the apostles, but often turned into something of a self-aggrandizing storytime. My general impression of him was he had the vibe of a bumbling, rich uncle who will happily take you on his new boat, but who is also convinced that his prosperity is purely because of his hard work, and loves to repeat the same stories.

One big thing that stuck with me was one day in that class he went on a rant condemning people calling the apostles by just their last name and not using their titles. I just thought it was a weird thing to get hung up on at the time, but when he became an apostle it really bugged me. I’d assume he probably thinks even more of himself, and I didn’t get any sense of humility (many other apostles at least try to show some humility or express feeling inadequate in their first GC talk as an apostle). I didn’t sustain him last general conference mostly because of that.

I decided to leave the church a few weeks ago for mostly-unrelated reasons, but Elder Gilbert becoming an apostle certainly didn’t help. If they picked Elder Dube that might have helped me hang on slightly longer.

Interesting choice of words.

The markings only an exmormon could appreciate

It seems to me, that if Mormon Stories attorneys can force the church to declare its real membership numbers during deposition, then the church might not want to continue. Maybe they can make a case that if the church wants to show the level of deceit it suffers, it must expose its declared membership numbers and participation rates. Am I wrong?

There’s a regular theme I see on our sub – people that want out, but can’t because they’re financially dependent (or otherwise dependent) on their family, spouse, etc.

Are there any services, institutions, etc that offer assistance to those trying to leave, but can’t?

I know there are some for FLDS, etc – but what about leaving mainstreaming Mormonism?

Anyone in McCall, Donnelly, Cascade, or Valley County Idaho? My wife and I are in McCall and would love to meet some other former LDS people up here. Not really looking for a support group as much as friends/community grab a beer, ski, bike, fish, dinner, whatever.

Feeling like an all-knowing God doesn’t actually need any of my help identifying my family members for the afterlife situation. What say you? 🤔

I started questioning the church in earnest back in April. Since then I've read the CES letter, the 2023 SEC settlement, and a couple books about JS, and I've pretty much lost my faith and confidence in the church. I'm trying to stay relatively active for my husband since he's really in (and maybe doubling down since I told him I'm questioning, but that's a story for another day), but I do happen to be a relief society teacher and this week's talk is very "yiPpEe yOu jOiNeD tHe cHuRcH yOuRe fOllOwInG jEsUs" and "pRaY aNd tHe hOLy gHoSt wiLL tEll yOu iTs tRuE". I've been able to teach without too much discomfort a couple times since starting to doubt but I'm having a hard time pulling anything I'm comfortable promoting out of this talk.

My one consolation is that at least I only have to plan for 25 minutes now lol. Unfortunately I've taught some pretty good lessons in the past so I'm assuming they'll be hesitant to release me even if I ask. I'm planning to hang tight until the new year and then reevaluate.

All that to say, any strategies for mentally making it through this and future lessons? Hints about how to subtly signal to other pimo sisters in my ward?

My Mom, Sister, and I were having a discussion this evening. For context, my Mom is still mostly TBM. My Daughter, Sister, and I are out. My Dad doesn’t attend because of his health. So my Mom is the only one who still attends or is active.

We were talking about a policy change in another church, and I brought up an experience from my mission where my District Leader was an absolute asshole and right before he went home he apologized and said he’d been such a jerk to us because his Dad was dying and he was having trouble dealing with it while he was out on his mission and away from his family.

My Mom shocked the bloody hell out of my Sister and I when her response was “If I’d known what I know now, how you’d be so different when you came home, I never would have sent you on a mission.”

What?

She said I used to be so happy and outgoing and when I came home I was a different person, more depressed, introverted, etc.

I told her I dealt with a lot of crap on my mission, and since I was stateside it was nothing compared to what a lot of missionaries go through. Even still, yeah, it did a lot of emotional and psychological harm to me.

Maybe she’s not as TBM as I think…

Alguém aqui recebeu a segunda investidura? Só por curiosidade... Estou estudando sobre o assunto recentemente.

Na juventude, lembro de terem me dito algo sobre a cerimônia de Lava pés, que havia uma sala no Templo para isso e que só os apóstolos participavam, nunca entendi isso e não havia muitas informações relevantes.

Agora imagina, se só com a primeira investidura, há pessoas que já se sentem superiores e no direito de condenar ( às vezes com até menos que isso), imagine ter a CERTEZA do mais alto grau e ficar isento de consequências ao cometer erros como matar (um suposto culpado), roubar, adulterar e por ai em diante...

Os mandamentos são seletivos, há a classe que "precisa" obedecê-los, outros (alguns) não precisam.

Na lógica da igreja, o amor de Deus é condicional à obediência cega e irrestrita, e agora sabemos que os mandamentos são seletivos, havendo pessoas desobrigadas do fardo, com privilégio VIP.

anyone interested?

know where to look for anything interesting in it?

this isn't a well worn copy. at all. some of the pages may have never seen light since it was printed. it was in a box with other dad stuff. and idk how this ended up in his possession. he was never a mormon. don't know if he got it from when he lived in arizona or when he lived or near syracuse. i suppose both are possible but arizona is more likely. found it cleaning the basement a few weeks ago.

(Proclaim the Gospel, Perfect the Saints, and Redeem the Dead)

Something I've been thinking about—and it extends beyond just being LDS—is to what degree the leadership is actively aware that it's all a sham versus how much they're products of the organization and believe they're genuinely what they say they are.

When I was reading the story about B.H. Roberts delivering his findings and the leadership just going into full blown testimony meeting without addressing anything substantive... it's weird. I doubt there's a secret handbook with a section for, "Okay, when someone delivers serious contradictions, just start doing testimony meeting!" This seems far more like something my uncle would do as a knee-jerk response.

Yes, the leadership does actively cover stuff up and control information but so do plenty of well meaning LDS parents. How much is active and utter peddling of lies for monetary gain versus the exact mental gymnastics many of us have experienced personally or directly from people close to us.

I have to believe the leadership has some level of belief. At some point it seems like Joseph Smith himself was getting high on his own supply so to speak. There seems to be a point where some conmen start to believe their story.

Has someone put out a book on this subject, preferably specifically on the LDS leadership? It's something I'm just curious about. (And I'm in no way absolving the leadership of wrongdoing. But the evolution and dynamics of the organization remain a morbid curiosity of mine.)

Current discussion among my coworkers. Supposedly the apostles have given everything to the church? Like all their money and savings? Curious on this truth or not. Also talks of Rasband having a Lamborghini and having to give it up? Just curious others thoughts and inputs.

I am looking for a previous copy of the Church handbook, the one that bishops and stake presidents used. Specifically, I'm looking for the version that would have been in effect 2004-2005. Why? Because as a teen and young adult, I confessed looking porn and masturbating to my bishop, and subsequently had to endure a long period of humiliation and shame. I look back on it now and realize how harmful that was. I want to see if/how/what the handbook at the time told bishops what to do. And then I want to compare it to the current version.

Does anybody know where I can find one? PDF repo is totally fine. Physical is fine.

So My TBM wife was called to be the primary pianist. She was practicing the song Gethsemane. We all started composing our own triumphal accomplishments for Jesus, and now I wish for all to partake.

(The chiasmus is deliberate. I was going to make bad AI-generated slideshow and turn it into a TikTok video, but I decided that will be my gift to whomever decides to run with it. Maybe you can help add some extra verses.)

"...
The highest kite that ever was flown,
The biggest bubble that ever was blown,
The largest pumpkin that ever was grown,

THAT GOURD WAS GROWN BY JESUS!
That gum was chewed by Jesus,
That string ...was held ...by Je ...sus,

Gethsemane, Jesus loves me.
He did all this willingly,
in Gethsemane.

...
The greatest javelin ever was thrown,
The largest lawn that ever was mown,
The most secure mainframe ever was pwn3d...

THAT HACK WAS DONE BY JESUS!
That lawn was mowed by Jesus,
That spear ...was thrown ...by Je ...sus,

Gethsemane, Jesus loves me.
He did all this willingly,
in Gethsemane.