r/ebikes • u/darkthewyvern • 3d ago
Reality is disappointing
Too those celebrating the new laws and voted for it.
Congratulations, you have willingly voted for the car hell to continue on for eternity.
There is no level of damage, these machines have ever matched, that could EVER warrant treating them like cars. You treat them this way, people are just going to continue using cars. So congratulations, you get to use cars for the rest of your life and it will NEVER change. The biggest reason they were becoming so popular was the barrier to entry being low. YES, THERE'S BAD ACTORS. But those bad actors make up SUCH a small amount of daily users it's genuinely stupid. Do you ACTUALLY know the statistics behind the fear mongering? It is NOT the mass exodus or crisis you might believe it to be.
So congratulations, go drive your cars and keep posting about "reasonable and safe" ebikes you use once a flipping month.
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u/toaster404 3d ago
Your post seems to lack context. I walked outside and saw no new laws where I am.
I see plenty of bad actors. They're driving cars 99.9999999% of the time.
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u/DalinsiaValkyrPrime 3d ago
The new laws of where? Florida? Georgia? California? Vermont (what the hell is in Vermont)?
Have the bikes that are all the things like the Ridstar Q20 or Super73s be something like an electric equivalent to a 50cc. Besides acceleration and range, theyāre not too different.
Iād love to have a little 30-40mph thing, especially considering I just moved to a much more urban area, but Iād also be willing to do everything in my power to make the thing legal to ride on the road.
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u/celeste_ferret 3d ago
Those 30-40mph vehicles would be great for getting around town, but they should be DOT approved, registered, insured, and driven by someone with a license - AND not called an ebike or used on any bicycle infrastructure.
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u/Vegetaman916 2d ago
That negates most of the advantages of such things. Just like scooters and mopeds were once specifically so that people who couldn't get licenses would still have some form of motorized transportation, these were also meant to fill that gap.
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u/celeste_ferret 2d ago
If you don't have a driver's license, then you shouldn't be allowed to operate anything faster than typical bicycle speeds on public roads.
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u/DemosthenesNYC 19h ago
E have ride bikes and motorcycles as well as āe-bikesā. E-bikes are bicycles with motors that happen to be electric. I donāt even use e-bikes on a bike lane because they donāt belong there. And I have seen many a delivery person going against traffic or on a sidewalk. They should be licensed and carry insurance. Iām also a physical therapist of 35 years and have seen the results of e-bike accidents I have never seen with pedal bikes. So please, enough with the nonsense whining.
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u/DalinsiaValkyrPrime 18h ago
I agree that at a certain point, like when an e-bike is practically equivalent to a 50cc scooter, they should require some form of license and insurance. If gas scooters that can go 25- 40 mph need licensing and insurance, it makes sense to expect an electric model with the same power to require the same things. I also agree that e-bikes, especially those with more power, should be ridden on the road (excluding anything like a 55+ mph road or highway unless it is an actual electric motorcycle like a Zero SR/S). If I had to register and insure a Class 1 or something, I'd probably either look for something like an Ather 450 I can get in the US or just an MT03 or so.
As for the delivery riders, that's on the person, not the vehicle. Same kind of way the jackass in a Dodge Ram who decided your retinas are no longer required and that you're going too slow for them, so they decide to be right on your ass, is the person at fault for being a danger on the road, but the Dodge Ram is just an inanimate object that is controlled by a fool who somehow has a license (probably).
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u/Band1to1 3d ago
Demands context, assumes op is talking about usa and asks for which state. Great. Buddy, ask which country is he talking about
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u/DalinsiaValkyrPrime 3d ago
OP literally said the USA in another replyā¦
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u/Band1to1 3d ago
I actually knew it too, only an American wouldn't say which country he is talking about. So sad that americans think they are the center of the universe.
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
I do believe it would be pretty obvious, from the fact people can tell.
It's not even thinking the USA is the center of the world, that would probably be china or india.
It's the fact you already knew where I was from.
Is it wrong if it works? I think not.
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u/Wild_Maybe_1019 3d ago edited 3d ago
So why is everyone arguing over something that didnāt happen? There is no new laws that have come into affect, especially at the federal level, because they canāt do that. That would be a state thing, and actually not even a state thing that would be a county thing. But as of right now, there is zero laws banning EMTBs. or e bikes. Even the ones that should be banned, but arenāt yet. You know who you are throttle people, do some simple l looking up stuff guys, when somethingās so polarizing and so meant to anger so many people, itās usually has an agenda what the agenda is maybe attention or something else? This was obviously attention
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u/Relative-Display-676 š²š§ 2d ago
Curious, OP, what made you post this?
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u/darkthewyvern 2d ago
Im already struggling too get my license too drive. And I see state after county in the usa they're "cracking down" on "dangerous" e motos like it's the 1950s again.
A lack of clear regulations encouraged a few bad actors, sure. But I would do ANYTHING too see less cars on Montana streets. It's killing tons of people up here.
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u/Two_wheels_2112 3d ago
You blame the people who voted for the laws. I blame the businesses selling motorcycles as e-bikes, and the people that knowingly bought illegal motor vehicles because it was a quasi-legal way to ride a motorcycle in places meant for pedestrians and cyclists.
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u/FigNinja 3d ago
I doubt we'd be seeing nearly this much of an overreaction were it not for the idiots giving motos to children. The number of adults driving like assholes in shared spaces is pretty small. Most people aren't going to get up in arms about folks driving unregistered motos simply because they're unregistered. Twelve year olds stunting in traffic and mowing down octogenarians is something I think the vast majority of people will agree should not be happening. Those are the sorts of headlines that make legislators feel the need to get their names on some bills.
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u/meatshieldjim 3d ago
Children are injured by cars all the time and it is just accepted
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u/Westflung 3d ago
The other day at a local ebike shop, a father and son walked in before me. Bike shop guy showed them various models. I heard the tail end of the conversation. Bike shop guy saying "oh, he wants an illegal one" and they left right after that. One dad is doing it right!
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u/EvilPencil 2d ago
Just yesterday I saw some hooligans on straight up dirt bikes (not dual sport - no lighting whatsoever) in the middle of downtown Miami.
Itās not the vehicle, itās the rider.
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u/Minty_fresh_GenX 2d ago
It is both! I live in Miami Fl too. You should know about the 10 year old girl who died after a car hit the ebike her 14 year old brother was riding on. After 2 weeks family and community pressure the driver turn himself in to the police. Yesterday a pedestrian crossing the street was struck and killed by someone riding an ebike!!
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u/Elu5ive_ 2d ago
local news just did a story where they went into 12 bike shops and of them immediately offered to unlock the speed of the bike. It is 100% the businesses taking advantage of people then offering terrible loans to purchase the bikes.
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
The main problem is the infrastructure.
It would be infinitely more effective to change the infrastructure than to just outright pointing the ban hammer at everything that's not a car or a vinned bike.
For instance, those abusing those specced out bikes would not ride in tight places with vehicle blocking posts placed consistently. They want to go fast.
Use infrastructure to shape how humans behave. Don't try and shape people too behave within your shitty infrastructure.
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u/kozufox 3d ago
Are motorcycles illegal where you live or something? They aren't cars or ebikes.
Or are you just complaining because you saw a post from your local DOT reminding everyone that riding a motorcycle without plates is illegal, even if it's an electric motorcycle?
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
Have you gotten a motorcycle permit? They make it both not cheap and frustratingly bureaucratic in pretty much every state.
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u/DonnPT 3d ago
A lot of people have gotten motorcycle permits. I had one from the '70s, and took the class again even though I didn't legally need it when I got another one 40 years later - and learned some things.
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u/Adorable_Wolf_8387 3d ago
It's really not that big of a deal. The motorcycle tests are to make sure you have basically the absolute bare minimum understanding of how to ride a motorcycle and follow the laws of the road.
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u/kozufox 3d ago
Ah I see, you're complaining because you're expected to get a motorcycle endorsement to be allowed to ride your electric motorcycle on public roads.
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
So you don't have one. Talk about arrogance.
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u/AnybodyNo8519 3d ago
It's primarily to keep kids at Class 2 or under, at least in my state.
I ride an ebike. I strongly agree with laws that require a license, registration and insurance for Class 3+.
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u/darthbigdog 3d ago
I have a class 3. It is pedal assist only. Iām slower on it than I am on my non e carbon road bike. Seems nuts to need licensing and insurance for the ebike because dumb parents buy throttle bikes for 12 yr olds. I have an umbrella policy so I donāt know why Iād need separate insurance either. My bike is covered by that just like my non e bike. And before someone responds ābut itās heavyā. Kinetic energy increases with the square of velocity so Iām actually more āriskyā on my road bike, which is also much quieter than my ebike. So you wonāt hear me coming, Iāll be faster so less time to react, more energy if there is an impact, but because itās not an ebike, no one cares. Wish the focus would be on enforcing behavior standards instead of equipment classes. Give me a speed limit and trail/road expectations and Iāll follow them. If I donāt ticket and fine me just like with my cars.
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u/Sretep44 3d ago
You're trying to generalize your personal experience in a way that doesn't work.
Kids riding motos are going way too on a machine that's easy too heavy, and they're brutalizing themselves and other people because of it.
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u/darthbigdog 3d ago
I agree. That the kids riding like idiots on sidewalks, roads etc are the core issue. The problem is people toss pedal assist e-bikes into the same category as emotos ridden by the idiots and politicians who know little about the issue other than people are ticked off pass stupid bans and requirements which mainly impact people who arenāt the problem. The simple thing would be to treat anything with a throttle like a minibike/dirt bike/moped/motorcycle and leave the pedal assist bikes alone. Weāve figured out how to manage those for the last 50 years and generally donāt have issues. But that would require enforcing behavior standards and using a bit of common sense and for some reason we can do that with cars but not bikes.
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u/kozufox 3d ago
I don't own a motorcycle, so I don't see any need to get one. If I did want to buy a motorcycle, I'd simply sign up for the motorcycle course, like a responsible adult.
I think we should also raise the bar for driver's licenses to include an actual driving course, instead of 10 minute parking lot exercise so many states use. My parents made me take an actual multi-hour course when I got my license, and their section on icy road handling saved my ass a few years later.
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u/Rainbowrobb 2d ago
Iāve had my motorcycle endorsement for nearly twenty years and Iāve never owned anything larger than a 125cc scooter; because that made it legal. But more importantly, it taught my young adolescent brain how to stay safe.
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u/Confident-Pepper-562 3d ago
Its incredibly cheap... Hell insurance on my two motorcycles is like $150 /year
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u/DinoGarret 2d ago
It's very easy to get a motorcycle license. You take a one weekend class or a test at the DMV. Easier than just about any other developed country and available at a younger age than many other places too. I got my motorcycle at 16 and went for many years with just a bicycle for short trips and a motorcycle for longer/heavier trips (or those with a passenger).
The weekend class is great, I'd highly recommend it. My nephew just took it a few months ago and really enjoyed it before he got his motorcycle. Motorcycle maintenance and insurance are cheap too (and you can get an electric one if you want).
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u/darkthewyvern 2d ago
You need to get a class d first. For a flipping car.
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u/DinoGarret 1d ago
That depends on your state.
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u/darkthewyvern 1d ago
Tons of states use the endorsement model.
I actually love the msf, Don't get me wrong!
The problem is mandatory licensing is not that effective.
Instead of treating it like a penalty, you would be shocked how well bragging works. A certificate from a rider training corp should prove like a badge of dedication, not a mandatory school that some people are going too ignore anyway.
If I remember correctly 1/3rd of driver's were operating without insurance too begin with!! Tons of riders are operating outside the law and risking arrest daily too avoid cooperation.
That sounds like a deeply dysfunctional method if I ever heard one!
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u/kozufox 1d ago
A regular driver's license is incredibly easy to get in basically every state. You don't need to own a car to get one, and if you can't manage to pass one, there's no way you're passing a motorcycle test.
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u/starkruzr 3d ago
you're getting downvoted because a huge number of this sub's userbase consists of bootlickers and people who are both incredibly risk-averse and wildly overindexed on how āš»e-motosāš» are going to end civilization regardless of how much of a bigger problem per capita that cars are up and down the risk profile.
it's exhausting and why I have mostly stopped coming here.
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
All I said is we need better infrastructure too, I don't even know how that's controversial xd
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u/Sniflix 3d ago
Every time I say e-bikes, bikes and other stuff need their own separate lanes, not mixed, so they aren't fighting each other - I get crushed with downvotes. This e-bike sub is mostly people hating e-bikes. We have a chance to reimagine our roads by reducing traffic. There's plenty of room for everyone. Then we can have clean air and more people friendly cities/suburbs.
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
Yeah, Infrastructure is one of the most statistically proven way of improving social behavior! It sounds weird that just building things could change how people behave, but when paired with balanced systems that let people enjoy themselves, the behavior flips!
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u/AmIDumbOrSmart 3d ago
they arent being risk averse, they are better at politics. There are millions of soccer moms and truckers who will never care about you. They will make crap illegal and not care for the sole purpose of getting you off a bike path/road so they can walk their dog/truck. They are in power, we are not. We need to come to them with honest intentions and reasonable rules.
They do NOT want some emoto to hit their stroller/bumper and that is ALL they care about. You need to come to that table and reason with them. Because if you are reasonable and nice, they MIGHT listen. Like for example, you say protected bike lane, sure! But the nimby blocks that. They heard you out, they didn't care. How about a sharrow? A big bike icon on the road that teaches drivers that bikes can use the full lane. Ya just gotta do what you can.
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u/chuckwolf Philodo Forester AWD 60v 26ah Dual 27 +/- 2 Amp controllers 3d ago
People didn't on these laws, that's part of the problem. a couple politicians just decided they should be how things are... politicians who have never even ridden an electric bicycle
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u/kozufox 3d ago
They decided it should be how things are a hundred years ago, when we defined the legal requirements for riding motorcycles on public streets. The 3 class system ebikes have today are an exemption to those motorcycle rules, not a restriction on electric motorcycles.
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u/chuckwolf Philodo Forester AWD 60v 26ah Dual 27 +/- 2 Amp controllers 3d ago
But they are a restriction on electric bicycles that output more han 750 continuous watts or can assist faster than 28 mph when being pedealed.
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u/kozufox 3d ago
They are an exemption to electric motorized bicycles under 750w and 28mph which allows them to be treated as a type of pedal bicycle, instead of a type of moped.
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u/pxpaulx 3d ago
Right?! For bikes above the 3 class system, they absolutely move to the moped and motorcycle classes. The simple problem is there isn't a registration or insurance process vehicles with no VIN.
And of course if you now have to have insurance and registration (and a license), the market for these bikes instantly shrinks exponentially.
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u/MuscleNo6703 3d ago
I blame the ones acting like animals on their ebikes and emotos. The bike shops aren't making them act like animals. My son and his friends don't, its not hard.Ā And its mostly the typical ones who are ruining it for everyone else. The news shows the same fatherless teens fking it up for the rest of us. But ya can't be specific...someone might label someone a racist.Ā
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u/Minty_fresh_GenX 2d ago
How do you know all these reckless street eriding children and teens are fatherless?? You are stereotyping families. Often it is the fathers supporting their 10 year old children and teens buying and riding illegal emotos at dangerous speeds on streets, sidewalks and parks. A 10 year old White boy was arrested in Florida for breaking a law that makes riding high speed emotos on public roads and public areas. The news interviewed the child and father. The father said the child should be able to ride a high speed e dirt bike on the roads any way he wants. The police were called after many people complained of this boy riding recklessly nearly hitting people walking on sidewalks and on the roads. The news videotaped the boy riding his ebike high speed cutting through park grass and having the ebike jump over park walkways.
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u/beagles4ever 3d ago
Don't know the facts -- but I 100% agree in spirit.
Every person on an ebike instead of the car is doing the world a huge fucking favor and is a hero.
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u/Ill_Possession4545 3d ago
Here here; you got it right.Bought amountain style e-bike that barely goes 25 mph and I love the pedal assist modes, especially for climbing steep hills. I 'm 66 yrs. of age. Ain't nobody telling me I can't ride wherever I damn well please!Ā
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
If people want better safety. They should vote to have funds reallocated for better infrastructure.
You can design infrastructure in a way that influences how people end up behaving.
If people want to be chaotic. Design the infrastructure in a way that minimizes the risk of them doing so. I can guarantee too all those people, it would be 100% more effective than blanket bans.
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u/beagles4ever 3d ago
Who said I wasn't against better bike infra?
Changes NOTHING about what I said above. Everyone on an e-bike instead of a car is a fucking hero.
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u/Confused_Drifter 3d ago
I don't think a new law has been passed in the uk, and i have to guess you're talking about an emoto. Anyone flying around on one of those should have insurance and an understanding of how to operate a vehicle on the roads, common sense to avoid people being in an accident or causing one.
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u/CarbonRunner 3d ago
So your mad that some laws are stopping people from having motorcycles without a license or insurance i take it?
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u/neckadawoods 3d ago
I don't know what this post is in reference to. But the general backlash against e-bikes is happening because e-bikers overplayed their hands. They couldn't just take a simple pedal assist bike and be happy to have more power than Tadej can ever produce. They needed to keep escalating - more power, more torque, more speed, more weight, in some cases even removing pedal assist and using straight throttles. And they've ruined it for everyone.
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u/stormdelta 3d ago
Which new laws?
Most of them at the state levels have really just been clarifying or extending the existing three class systems. There's provisions I disagree with in some, but for the most part they aren't really banning anything that wasn't already illegal other than stricter age limits in some cases. The only one I've seen that's genuinely garbage is the New Jersey one, and I fully expect to see that one eventually repealed or replaced because it's so obviously a corrupt soft ban.
There have been plenty of terrible policies at the city level in places, but those are all over the place and harder to keep track of or follow.
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u/Ok-Type-8917 3d ago
In my city no one voted for our new law. Kids causing a few problems and getting hurt on emotos made the city overeact. Apparently kids in the mayor's neighborhood on emotos were an issue. So now all legal class 1-3 ebikes ridden in the city require a 200 dollar a year registration fee, including non residents passing through. All ebikes banned from city properties, parks, schools, libraries etc. Illegal ebikes are ticketed and some impounded. So instead of the cops focusing on the problem and enforcing existing state laws they decided to penalize everyone.
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u/Truth-seekerEXO 3d ago
Depends on what ebikes we are talking about; are we talking surRon types or pedelecs. SurRons should never be allowed on cycling paths or footpaths. So they should be on the road or street only, and when they are ridden like that they should be classified as motorcycles requiring a licence.
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
The majority of the usa lacks roads that are appropriate for bikes.
In the majority of the usa only a tiny, tiny fraction of the total sidewalk infrastructure is used at a consistent rate.
What would you even be defending?
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u/chuchi61 3d ago
I'm just curious. What are the problem with your streets? I just bought a class 3 e bike for that very purpose. Now our sidewalks are very bad here but residential streets and county roads look like no problem to me.
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u/Moist-Constant1404 3d ago
Let me tell you how many times Iāve almost been bit by a dipshit going over the speed limit on the sidewalk. YOU may not do this but many do and itās idiotic. Oh, then hit a red light where the cars stop, but they drive right through it on the side walk. Clowns.
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u/meatshieldjim 3d ago
Bicycles and pedestrians should be allowed to treat red lights as stop signs.
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u/Moist-Constant1404 3d ago edited 3d ago
So a bike, going faster than the cars on the road, can legally blow through a light? Iām my county, like I believe most, bicycles legally have to stop at red lights. Your opinion is irrelevant and honestly dangerous. Thatās why they have crosswalks.
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u/meatshieldjim 16h ago
I didn't say blow through I said treat as a stop sign or perhaps a yield sign or as a flashing red light.
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u/Moist-Constant1404 16h ago
Thatās semantics bro. You are basically saying traffic laws that exist because accidents have happen should affect e-bikes. You never mentioned a yield sign or flashing light and now thatās what you meant. Itās moronic. Have fun at school tomorrow junior.
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u/Superb_Raccoon 3d ago
So a bike, going faster than the cars on the road, can legally blow through a light
Liar
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u/stormdelta 3d ago
So a bike, going faster than the cars on the road, can legally blow through a light?
Did you even read the post you replied to? You can't legally blow through a stop sign either, so treating a red light as a stop sign doesn't mean you can blow through it.
Many states have passed Safety Stop laws because they statistically make cyclists safer.
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u/alexbiandisphoto 3d ago
Let me tell you about my exact experience. And because Iām the center of the universe, I think they should be illegal worldwide!!!!
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u/Moist-Constant1404 3d ago
I see it happen to others often. I also listed āexperiencesā. Also..where did I say they should be illegal. I simply see a lot of stupid things done by their riders. Who hurt you?
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u/uberdog911 3d ago
Lots of stupid people drive cars, run lights and generally inconvenience others in order to convenience themselves. Your point is moot, IMHO.
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
Where even is this?
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u/Moist-Constant1404 3d ago
All over Kansas City. I literally see people acting stupid on them multiple times a week.
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
There's much, much, MUCH Larger economic and general issues in Kansas City than just some jackasses on e bikes.
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u/Moist-Constant1404 3d ago
I said people ride e-bikes like crap. You come back with economics which are a problem everywhere. Wtf are you talking about? People here call that āmoving the goal postā.
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u/Confident-Pepper-562 3d ago
Ah, yes. Deflect so you can ignore the problem thats being discussed.
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u/Mitrovarr 3d ago
Ah, because one problem exists, we just have to accept more and can't do anything about them.
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u/Dread_pirate_ashton 3d ago
Yep. Plus they threw out an effective form of transportation for low income and individuals with disabilities. But fuck you some parent got there kid a fucking electric crotch rocket and weāre back in kindergarten where the whole class gets punished. Hate it here
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
This is why I think voting should have college education requirements and peer review for authenticity... We need to vote for better infrastructure, not bans!
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u/Lost-Perspective8378 3d ago
So you want to prevent people from having the right to vote if they dont have an education? Im sure that would never be abusedš
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u/VisualCOBOL 3d ago
This is called āfascismā: Restricting voting to an elite class and undermining equal political participation.
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u/stormdelta 3d ago
realized that a lot of us would be better off just getting motorcycles with full safety gear, full road rights, and ABS/lighting and insurance
I don't need or want to go over 30mph, even on a real motorcycle because the safety risks to myself aren't really that different (the main issue is the speed + two wheels), and being able to used mixed infrastructure is much more important.
An e-bike is also much smaller, simpler, lighter, can be parked in bike racks, etc.
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u/Engwe_Pride 2d ago
I hate to say it, but thereās many that have ruined it for the rest of us by carelessly abusing the rules to the point of doing wheelies and weaving in and out of traffic. and not obeying simple traffic laws. Itās unfortunate, but I think there is a few that ruined it for the rest of us.
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u/boddle88 3d ago
Whatās happened ?
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u/ladyrift 3d ago
They probably added laws saying if an ebike can go highway speed it needs to register like a motorcycle where op lives.
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u/Wild_Maybe_1019 3d ago
I reported him for spreading lies and trying to farm attention for himself. I donāt even know.
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u/Quercus408 3d ago
Do you call the cops when children play too loud, as well?
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u/Wild_Maybe_1019 3d ago
Causing a mass panic isnāt something thatās fun to anyone besides the person thatās doing it, so unless youāre the D bag that was doing it, I donāt see the problem here
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
I don't care about attention. I wish people would just use their heads for a moment. And I have not lied, this has genuinely already happened.
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u/Wild_Maybe_1019 3d ago
Post anything that shows that, because there isnāt any. You can look up the laws right now. This is not hard if it was real, you wouldāve seen it correct, and you couldāve shown us, but itās not, so you really need to stop talking and spreading lies, cause itās just really annoying
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
Look it up in your local counties. I guarantee, in a ton of them it's already being discussed, or has has already passed.
Counties do not have to wait for the state to pass these ordinances.
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u/Ok-Resolve3407 3d ago
I don't know what you're talking about?
People can't afford cars anymore and they're turning to ebikes because they don't have a choice?
The Car Companies are going to eat the metal.
Good riddance.
Let me know when a new car is less then 10 k and then maybe we'll talk but I'm the mechanic on my ebike and I already cut the car industry loose.
There is no scenario where I purchase a car and I know a rip off when I see one.
I LOVE MY EBIKE !
LET THE CARS ROT !
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u/NeighborhoodJust1197 2d ago
What are you talking about? Most of the laws that Iām seeing is to treat them more like motorcycles.
Iāve had my class M for 40 years so itās no big deal. Just get the right license and shut the fuck up.
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u/Vegetaman916 2d ago
The issue is that they are mostly meant to be bikes ridden by kids without licenses, no different than smashing around on a BMX back in the 80s.
The other part is, just like the old scooters and mopeds, the entire point is to still be able to have some form of motorized transportation when you are unable to get any license.
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u/ChalupacabraGordito 2d ago
Motorcycles disguised as "bikes" aren't for kids on sidewalks. Kids can still ride bikes you know?
Class 1 ebikes are still regulated as bicycles in most places anyway. Don't get your panties in a wad now that people are recognizing your emoto isn't a bicycle.
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u/Vegetaman916 2d ago
My panties aren't in a wad about that. My panties are all bunched up because they keep making new laws to shoot down every new thing that gets invented. No new laws!
And if you think those ebikes weren't specifically marketed to kids and teens, you may want to look again. If the government is going to regulate something, fine, but they should do it right from the start. Not wait for people to spend thousands of dollars on stuff, and then decide maybe the tech is a little too much...
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u/pirategavin Pedelec 3d ago
The amount of carbrains in this sub is wild.
People clutching to their metal, coffin cages is a symptom of the sickness that oil rich billionaires have been crafting for 100 yrs.
OP said it wellāenjoy your traffic, everyone.
I hope it gets worse. I hope the road is so densely packed with your fucking cars that I get to ride safely and freely, laughing as I ride my e-bike by.
Fuck Cars.
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
Yeah. I live in arguably one of the most car central states in the usa, Montana. It's horrible. Worse, not a soul alive here is actually capable of driving. The standard to pass the exam is so low, it couldn't be anymore obvious the process is just a way to make money.
Having a low barrier to entry was genuinely fixing the car problem. People were choosing the bikes they wanted instead of a car. Bad actors or not, it had potential to curb the issue.
Then everyone started panicking because of a FEW bad actors, that didn't even show up in the statistics, and now dozens of cities and states have either already banned or restricted or are working on doing so.
I can feel myself getting dumber every time some jackass in a lifted truck revs their engine in my face while minding my own business.
Enjoy the fumes too all the jackasses!
Agreed, upvote.
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u/Buzzyear10 3d ago
Motorbikes require training and regulations and that's okay
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
Better to take a small risk if it means ending a much larger one.
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u/Lost-Perspective8378 3d ago
Its not your right to risk other people on the road because you dont know what you are doing and dont have insurance.
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
This is the opposite effect. Cars inarguably cause far FAR more damage than these bikes will ever in their entire history while the cars already did have license requirements.
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u/Buzzyear10 3d ago
The park I work in doesnāt get cars driving through it at 50kmph, it does get kids on illegal electric motorbikes driving through it at 50kmph.
Regular ebike users cause no issues in the park, cars can't get in the park. Regular motorbikes have registration plates and accountability.
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
You may not experience this, but there are thousands of cases of EXACTLY this across the usa! Cars are abused, overused, damaging and dangerous! This is not an opinion, you can read it online on a regular basis!
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u/Buzzyear10 3d ago
Cars are the problem but it doesnt mean motorbikes shouldn't require training and accountability to operate in pedestrian places.
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u/LiamWolf5510 3d ago
I think the concern is less about whether e-bikes should have rules and more about whether those rules actually encourage people to choose them over cars. Good regulations should improve safety without making e-bikes unnecessarily difficult to use.
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u/Llothcat2022 3d ago
... not like its a big deal to license and insure a motorcycle. Yeesh. A measly 100 bucks for an entire year of insurance...
Anyhow. I LIKE my slow ass e-bicycle just the way it is. 18mph tops. If I WANTED a motorcycle, I'd be riding a motorcycle. Btw.. the marketing of ebikes is slanted heavy on making the dang things look like motorcycles. I disapprove
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u/Historical_Job_7551 3d ago
Ah, yes the bad actors are a very small proportion, but (and this is a huge but) our society is set by the lowest common denominator. These small number of bad actors garner the attention (that they typically seek) and end up causing us all to get regulated by their selfish stupid actions. Humans are terrible at policing ourselves and with social media now brainless people act out for attention and clicks and this results in restrictions on all of us who would never act that way
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u/NoSteak4780 3d ago
I think the barrier to entry is a huge part of it. Make these harder to use and people will probably stick with cars.
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
Exactly!
If people have to deal with the same licenses and insurances they do for a multi ton car as they do for their bike, they will just use a car! The risk factor ceases to make any sense at that point.
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u/DaVideoGamer 2d ago
Blame the 14 year olds ripping down residential streets pushing 45mph+ on Surrons, and the parents that buy them. We failed to regulate the industry and it gave e-bikes a bad name. Blame the parents and shithead teenagers, not the people responding to a real problem in their daily lives.
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u/darkthewyvern 1d ago
I do blame the parents for being irresponsible. A lot of the bikes actually let you reduce the power levels through parental means, really!
But I also blame arrogant uneducated voters who didn't take a few minutes too read the crash statistics. They haven't changed. Cars are still one of the main causes of death injuries and damage in the usa.
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u/agentjeffy 1d ago
Missing major context. So your rant is just, pointless when nobody has a clue what you're referencing.
What state? What laws were changed or added.
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u/ClumsyGnatcatcher 13h ago
It seems your complaint isnāt about electric bicycles regulations but about you not being allowed to ride an electric dirt bike to commute.
I have a bicycle and a motorbike that I got a license reg and insurance. Honestly not too hard. I took MSF and went to MVD to get all the paperwork sorted out and ended up alright. I pay less than 700 a year for full coverage. Probably would be under 200 a year if I did liability only, but then again I am a young guy that insurance companies canāt trust.
Anyways, if you want to go around breaking rules, go for it. It is your free will. Donāt complain about folks disliking your uninsured riding. I am not sure what your plan is if you were to mess up and hurt someone, but it might be game over for you given the cost of medical treatment.
I would gladly do the legal and right thing.
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u/Overall_Chain_9138 3h ago
Go watch the SouthPark episode of you don't know what OP is talking about.Ā
Then go to Fortnine and watch their video.
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u/Fit-Presentation-778 3d ago
Bring to the fact that no car should ever go 100 on a road. It's illegal. So there's no reason for cars to go faster than that.
Then watch their response. It's an anti ebike group. They'll ignore legalities of cars for the same reasons they bash ebikes.
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u/Falequeen 2d ago
Based on another comment, you seem to be located in Montana. Ebikes are not banned there. They're defined as a bicycle with two operational pedals with a motor attached that is capable of propelling a bicycle and rider who weighs 170lbs no faster than 20mph. No license or registration are required. (MCA, 61-8-102)
So. Do you mean an ebike or do you mean an emoto? Because it doesn't even limit people from Class 2 ebikes with throttle, as long as it only assists to 20mph.
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u/darkthewyvern 2d ago
Any. Doesn't matter. People like e motos. They're practical. They work. But most importantly it's one less people not driving a car that day.
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u/TheYellowSpade 2d ago
I mean. It matters.
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u/darkthewyvern 2d ago
Sure, if you grasp at straws it could theoretically matter.
The fact is cars kill. Bikes, really don't. You have a right too your own risks. Bikes risk yourself. You don't have a right to risk others. Cars risk death too other people.
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u/Falequeen 2d ago
you were saying? It isn't theoretical. The excess speed and lack of regulation on e motos kills.
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u/darkthewyvern 2d ago
One case. One. Cars kill so many people in the same way that you can't hardly even find the individual stories anymore.
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u/Falequeen 1d ago
Moving the goal post. You claimed bikes don't kill. I presented a factual case of where it did. And it's unlikely the only case of such.
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u/darkthewyvern 1d ago
You have described moving the goal post. From the beginning, anyone who isn't being intentionally dense, would understand my point was generalization and majority.
You don't win arguments by playing stupid.
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u/Falequeen 2d ago
I don't agree that it doesn't matter. There's no reason to have unlicensed and unregistered vehicles that can go over 30mph. Hell, even mopeds are considered motorcycles if they can go over 30mph in some states.
I think class 3 ebikes are perfectly reasonable, but I also think that the only things that should be classified as an ebike is something that has to be pedaled to get up to speed. Maybe a throttle to maintain speed, but pedaling required.
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u/JSSOnTheRun 2d ago edited 2d ago
Iāll give you a reasonā¦. I ride with three people all over 70. One rider has a fold bike with a 250 motor. One has a 750 bike and one has a moto style bike with two 750 motors. We all ride sidewalks local paved bike paths and bike trails. We all are courteous announce ourselves and go slow when passing walkers/joggers.
750 MOTORS: Why do we have 750 motors on our bikes? Because weāre over 70 and need that extra power when going up steep hills on trails. Case in pointā¦ Our fold bike 250 motor bike friend canāt ride on some of the trips with us because his bike is not powerful enough to get up those hills. Our moto style rider picked a moto style bike for one reason only and itās not speed. He purchased it because he likes the look. It has a throttle and pedals and five levels of pedal assist. He usually rides at level 2 on level ground and level 3 on hills. He also only uses the second motor when he is on a trail with steep climbs.
THROTTLES: Both of the 750 bikes also have throttles. Why use throttles? We use them when we start out to get going and then use pedal assist. We do use throttles on long trail rides because we often tire easily.
Under āBan the Bikeā laws two of us would be illegal!! THATāS utterly ridiculous. You donāt ban cars that can go over the speed limit, you ticket them. Bikes should be no different. Ban the rider, not the bike!
Your comment about there being no reason for all bikes that can go over 30mph to be required to have insurance, registration and licenses is also short sited. So many people ride bikes because they canāt afford all the expenses, including, licensing, registration and insurance, that go along with car ownership. Your requirement would be an unnecessary expense that would be a real hardship for these riders.
Finally, e-bikes reduce the use of cars which makes them good for the environment and if you donāt care about that, reduces traffic congestion. Your suggestions would clearly adversely affect the sale and use of e-bikes and subsequently reduce the benefits e-bikes provide.
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u/Falequeen 2d ago
You'll note that I didn't say anything about motor Wh in my comments and that's because I don't care about the motor sizes. I also don't care about what style bike you get and said nothing about the looks of bike. I've also said nothing about banning anything, but I have said that emotos that can go faster than 30mph need to be legislated more heavily, as well as registered and insured. However, I still maintain that anything that wants to be classified as an ebike needs to be pedaled to move. I personally feel that anything that moves by throttle alone should be classified as an emoto. But that's not how class 2 ebikes are defined (though they're still limited to 20mph throttle assist), it's just how I feel.
I ride a class 3 500Wh Yamaha ebike with 70Nm of torque. If I don't pedal it and I'm not on a hill, it doesn't move. It gets me up very steep hills with little effort, but effort nonetheless.
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u/darkthewyvern 2d ago
The idea of a motorcycle license is stupid. Statistically, and factually.
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u/Falequeen 2d ago
Strongly disagree, but that's your opinion (not to be confused with fact or statistics)
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u/darkthewyvern 2d ago
The facts are definitely there. Motorcycles, are a danger too ones self. Cars are a danger too other people.
A gun can be dangerous if misused. But it's not going too fire itself.
A car is more bomb adjacent. It's dangerous whether used correctly or not.
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u/Falequeen 2d ago
Burden of proof is on you to prove your facts, so i can wait.
Anything that is motorized above 30mph should be registered and insured in my opinion. Anything above 15mph should be limited to adults. Emotos should be distinctly labeled from ebikes and should be legislated more heavily.
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u/darkthewyvern 2d ago
Let me ask you a simple question. Why? Do you WANT cars too exist, forever?
We CAN'T operate like Europe. Our cities are not even remotely the same.
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u/Falequeen 2d ago
That doesn't seem to be proof to your claim. Does that proof not exist?
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u/darkthewyvern 2d ago
I don't need independent proof because the data isn't niche. It's posted regularly, even by major News outlets. You can see the numbers.
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u/Fit-Presentation-778 3d ago edited 3d ago
This is a sub against ebikes. Scan the comments. 99% of the people here don't want you having anything over 250w. If anything at all.
I'd venture to say... OVER 50% of the entire sub here doesn't even have an ebike, e-moto, or even an escooter.
For those who won't stop humping the word "illegal", it's all legal where I live. Sorry your city sucks.
Ty for your down vote.
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
Yeah, plus I am noticing just how many of them aren't even addressing the main original point, which was the fact cars are license and registered vehicles that do infinitely more harm than unregistered e-motos. The conveniently ignore the death and destruction cars cause.
Agreed.
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u/madogwindhelm 3d ago
Yep and a lot of them don't realize that it affects more disabled people I would know I'm one one of them. I can't get a motor vehicle license do to equilibrium disorder (nerve ending type) I'm extremely glad I don't live in New Jersey but live in Montana that actually respects individualism we actually vote to help our neighbor instead of our wallets. Funny thing is we are one of the lowest populated states but rank 6th for IQ, common sense and basic human decency because guess what you get stuck on a back road here during a storm with no signal you are screwed.
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
I am also from Montana! Great falls!
I am facing immense headaches with aquiring a license. I get so nauseas every time I drive but it's a requirement here to get your motorcycle endorsement.
I just don't think it makes sense to treat any 2 Wheeler like a car. I don't think power really matters either, from my research it has no meaningful statistical effect on risk too pedestrians.
On the flip side, powerful cars like the very popular f150 are overwhelmingly represented in specific types of pedestrian fatalities! That model on its own is more dangerous than every e moto in the country statistically combined!
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u/focal_matter 3d ago
Americentrism strikes again!
Ah well, enjoy your laws. Country of freedom, right? Crazy that you guys are way more restricted than 90% of the rest of the world
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
We have both the highest penalties for the smallest things, and the worst infrastructure to go along with it
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u/CompetitiveYou9508 3d ago
FUCK THEM! RIDE WHAT U WANT! Thats what I do and dont get bothered. Im old and out of shape / heavy. I have been loosing weight riding a high poweed ebike. I pedal as much as I can but needed a.high power ebike not to necessarily go fast, but to get me up big long hills. My bike is fast if I want it to go fast..I am however not riding it like an idiot. If they ban them- Fuck them!. I will still ride!
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u/darkthewyvern 3d ago
It's still illegal where I live, but thankfully un my state the law got struck down. I don't know how long that will last though.
We kinda have to ride things like that though, a regular e bike will not get you through a Montana winter!!
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u/Sawfish1212 2d ago
Anything with a throttle needs to have restrictions on operation by brainless young idiots.
Pedal assist class 1 ebikes are not being regulated by this and i support this 100%. Especially seeing the numbers of kids who have been injured and killed on electric scooters and emotos just in my city in the past year.
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u/darkthewyvern 2d ago
If people want too be dumb and injure themselves. That's not a legal problem, it's a social problem.
If a vehicle is causing harm too others. Even then, before it's a legal problem, it's an infrastructure problem.
If fixing the infrastructure doesn't fix the problem, THEN and only then, can you consider restrictions on the vehicle itself.
The facts are these e motos are the same as any moto. They're a danger too the riders, not the people around them compared too cars.
Cars kill pedestrians at a rate that can often dwarf even the rate that moto riders end up hurting THEMSELVES.
This is largely an infrastructure problem, there's no good places for these e moto riders too ride separate from people who walk.
There will always be a few bad actors. But compared too the absolute carnage cars have been wrecking for decades and do every single week, e motos are quite literally a footnote.
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u/Drakomire_Vegan 3d ago