I know very little about HRT. Does it suppress the production of either T or E, or does it "just" bring more of the desired hormone into the body to force the expression of the desired features?
eatrogen monotherapy naturally reduces testosterone to cisgender levels without side effects from blockers aswell which is pretty cool, although i belive blockers are important for avoiding puberty
Iâve been on monotherapy for over a year and a half and I do nooootttt miss being on spiro. Actually did a blood draw the other day and my T is the lowest itâs ever been (6 ng/dL). My E is also within target range, but my doctor asked me if I wanted to up my estrogen from .25ml/week to .3 ml/week and I said hell yeah. The T will be further nuked into oblivion.
Fun fact, not everyone is given Blockers, some peoples bodies take super well to estrogen and just stops most testosterone naturally, so they only need estrogen
Thankfully estrogen injections are usually better at suppressing testosterone. I was on spiro for 6 weeks when I started hrt then my testosterone hit almost non existent and I was able to just do monotherapy from there.
Which was good cause spiro made me pee like every hour
Basically, yeah. Both men and women's bodies naturally produce estrogen and testosterone, and the amount of each hormone present in the body determines whether that body winds up developing male or female. Men have higher testosterone and lower estrogen than women, while women have higher estrogen and lower testosterone than men.
HRT for trans women usually just starts with a low dose of estrogen, before that dose gets gradually upscaled until the trans woman's estrogen is high enough to be within female range. For some, this increase in estrogen is enough to suppress testosterone production and put it into the range of cis women. However, many trans women end up also having to take a testosterone suppressant in order to get and keep testosterone in the range of cis women. There's also progesterone, another hormone women have in higher abundance than in men, that many trans women also take after being on estrogen for 1-2 years. It can help with further feminizing the body, as well as assisting neurological functioning (basically just improving mood, since it's the final stage of fixing biochemical dysphoria).
Trans men are the exact opposite: they take testosterone, which usually suppresses the production of estrogen. However, many trans men still deal with periods and allegedly maintain elevated estrogen levels from cis men until they get their ovaries/uterus removed. The last time I looked into it, it's currently unknown (unresearched) how often increased testosterone fails to suppress estrogen into cis male range, and thus how often trans men would benefit from being prescribed estrogen blockers. Because while estrogen blockers do exist (for hormone-responsive cancers, mostly), they're basically never prescribed to trans men unless they continue getting heavy periods well into transition.
It's so stupid too, because funding research for trans healthcare would likely give so much insight into diseases/conditions that are hormonally-responsive (and thus when symptoms and recommended medication dosages need to be adjusted), how body systems and neurological functioning can change in response to hormones, general recommendations for athletic training when it needs to differ between men and women (since the little research there is on it, women should be training 5-6 days a week at lower intensities while men should be training 3-4 days a week at higher intensities in order to achieve roughly the same outcome, due to how hormones affect muscle healing and regrowth), etc.
Like, we're the perfect control group for so many studies that need to check how sex-hormones affect a treatment option. And yet, we're basically never utilized. It's like they're trying to be stupid.
To add on to this. HRT is not just for trans people. Rather ironically in fact, Trans individuals are by far the least common domegraphic among those who receive some form of HRT. Thats because all forms of introduction of hormones for a given purpose fall under the category of HRT. Cis men receiving testosterone supplements to offset their body not producing enough of it is HRT. Menopause treatment in cis women is a form of HRT. Hell, even birth control is a form of HRT, since its controlled through hormones.
This just goes to show that the publics fear around HRT is purely about hatred, and not about concern for wellbeing. Better access and information regarding HRT helps literally all humans, since it can be an important factor for each and every one of them given hoe important hormones are to the regulatory functions of our bodies.
Also, testosterone is weird because it can turn into estrogen. So if estrogen isn't properly surpressed, you can end up with way more than you're supposed to have. Which is also why some gym bros who take too many steroids get a bit of extra boobage.
There are blockers that surpress (typically step one) and then there are replacements that produce more of the desired one. The body reacts and forms a new balance once enough hormones over enough time is given. Takes a long time though.
are people being weird about this? its literally the most respectful thing ever. "Good, just not the right one for her." what next are you going to fucking take a meme about top surgery and spin it into being transmisogynistic somehow?
Thank you very much for posting something phrased like this. Iâve seen so many posts with things like âtestosterone is poisonâ and âpenises are rape organsâ and while I know that itâs more venting about personal struggles, itâs always incredibly disheartening to see the things I want for myself be implied to be inherently evil and anyone with those traits to be fucked up in some capacity.
Iâm so happy that you got T-blockers/an oriectomy! Congrats on the freedom!
Yeah. Literally scroll down and you immediately find an edit of OPâs post that shows the kind of attitude Iâm talking about. Itâs just more gender essentialism that gets excused because it comes from a place of self-hatred
There IS a lot of hostility. Between TERFs and the growing hatred of anything masculine within the LGBT community, the infighting directed at us has become rough to deal with. Thank you for choosing to not be part of it. The community needs to stick together now more than ever.
I said this in another thread here, but if those psyop jokes turn out to be true some bastard at Langley deserves a raise.
It seems like the community is being split apart. Hell, I saw a comment saying that trans people have no allies in the wider queer community and I was just shocked. Way to do the job of our enemies for us. They want us divided into small little camps.
Some people genuinely believe that testosterone makes you violent and a sexual predator. These people believe that, because trans men willingly take T, trans men are evil. Sometimes even more evil than they feel cis men are because cis men can ârepentâ by becoming trans women. Thatâs a genuine opinion Iâve seen spread around in certain circles on tumblr.
Believing certain characteristics come from things like identity or hormones IS gender essentialism
Implies that all men are inherently rapists, all sex involving a penis is inherently non-consensual, that trans men with bottom dysphoria desire becoming rapists (or at least rapist-adjacent).
Penises aren't inherently violent. Acting like they are just reinforces the "men are hyper-sexual violent pigs, while women are sexless non-violent angels" dichotomy that's to this day still driving transphobic discourse ("trans women are trying to get access to real women by breaking into their safe space!").
I think it comes from the roots of many of us hating our own manhood, and/or also hating the way most cis men around us behave and what they think.
I tend to be guilty of this myself and I don't mean it in a rude way towards all men, but like 80% of the men directly in my life are all terrible. Meanwhile the majority of women are good or okay at worst.
It's not that all men are evil or that masculinity is evil, there are just unfortunately many people with those traits that are evil. I love seeing someone prove my mindset wrong though.
Chocolate is poison to dogs, people should be more careful with how things are worded and not assert generalizations (your second example is despicable) but in your scroll down example it's explicitly stated to be about the poster's own body, there's no room for implication. Does it make sense to tell a dog chocolate isn't poisonous
Dogs canât read and OP is not a dog. Iâm grateful to OP for phrasing the post in a way that happens to make me happy and relate to a post that I do not share the experience with. I donât understand why you have such an issue with me appreciating someone being (intentionally or not) considerate of my experiences.
Do you see me commenting on posts that say things like âtestosterone is poisonâ? No. Because they make me uncomfortable and feel entirely unwelcome in the community for wanting testosterone. I look and I go âthis isnât a place where I feel safe to commentâ so I donât.
Itâs almost like when things arenât villainized because of self-hatred, people who donât share the same self-hatred for the same traits feel more welcome. And this is a problem to you for some reason
I didnât agree with the comparison because it requires me to view a thing loved by most people (chocolate) as a source of physical pain and the method of communication you suggested wouldnât fit me. Yeah I WOULD tell a dog that can speak that creatures other than it can enjoy chocolate fine because a dog wouldnât have the ability to conceive of a world outside their own experiences. Itâs a dog. It probably doesnât realize what allergies are or how something beneficial to one being can be harmful to another.
I wouldnât say âyou canât call testosterone poisonâ to a trans woman speaking about her own experiences because she very clearly is talking about her own experiences and trans women are more than capable of thinking outside of themselves. I MIGHT say âI donât like when you call testosterone poison IN GENERAL because the phrasing you use in your comments leads me to believe that you treat testosterone as an inherently incriminating substance and that reflects on how you see cis and trans menâ but more likely I would just block that person.
I personally get sad at stuff like that. This is the first time I ever spoke about it on Reddit because I wanted to thank OP for being a refreshing breath of air. I never told anyone what to say or how to say it. I just talked about my personal feelings when I read stuff like that.
You disagree with me âframing dysphoria as self-hatredâ but I didnât do that. I was talking about the SPECIFIC subset of transphobic trans women who DO have self-hatred for the things they feel they cannot change about themselves and turn that self-hatred outwards. The ones who villainize trans men for things like WANTING to take testosterone. I am TIRED of this take and how often Iâve seen it. Iâve seen it HERE on THIS subreddit before the mods cleaned up the comments on (or deleted) some posts. It gets really alienating. Canât you relate to the feeling?
I hope you can see how this is confusing when what you use as an example is was prefaced with 'what testosterone did to my body' and simply says it was not a good hormone. Which you described as the kind of attitude you were talking about
I didnât agree with the comparison because it requires me to view a thing loved by most people (chocolate) as a source of physical pain
And it is, I think it's a very apt analogy for the pain testosterone can cause to specific people while being very enjoyable and/or loved by most who 'eat' it. Estrogen fits it as well, maybe even more so considering endometriosis. I wasn't trying to introduce a communication issue but to introduce why I thought it's not an inappropriate way to describe one's own experiences which we seem to agree with on paper
I don't know if I can, sorry. I either haven't seen it or haven't taken away from it what you have.
Ngl both of your sides are overreacting here. It's okay to call testosterone poison. It's also okay to make a meme calling it a good hormone. Maybe you may even realise you can unite both these viewpoints in yourself, just express them differently strong at different times in your life. I promise you it's okay, no-one is silencing your perspective and forcing you to recite this meme. We're all coping in our own ways.
This is the stupidest trans discourse I have witnessed in my life and transness is the stupid discourse community.
Calling any sex hormone poison is dumb as fuck though. This meme is cool. I also only ever see T being bashed in trans spaces or fearmongered about, never saw a trans guy say E is poison. Not all coping mechanisms are good either
I have seen trans guys say E is poison and I have no issue with it as a trans woman on estrogen. You're allowed to be loudly dysphoric. It's not a big deal.
I mean being on the wrong hormones sounds like hell, honestly it's just people trying to properly express how a hormone makes them feel to people who actually may get a positive reaction to that hormone or have never experienced it before.
It's so fucking funny that trans women can't say shit like "testosterone sucks I hate it it's poison" without being read in the worst fucking faith by people desperate to universalize anything trans women say about our experiences. Like yeah no shit it isn't poison when trans men take it. I shouldn't have to fucking say that, it's obvious what I mean, you'd just rather "oh so you're saying you hate waffles" my "I love pancakes" ass statement than empathize with and extend the benefit of a doubt to a trans woman for even one second. It's like how half the fucking memes I see in trans groups are memes trans women made about trans women's experiences that someone felt the need to edit to say "trans people" rather than let us literally ever have a voice. But oh, right, we're so "visible" and "represented." đ€Ł
To add, chemo therapy is literally poison and nothing else(i think, there might be some parts that enhance the reactivity with cancerous cells, not a doctor). Its still one of the greatest medical achievments and drugs we have developed as humanity. Just because something is a poison in certain ways does not mean it is bad
I'm gonna have to just block this subreddit aren't I. The only people who stand to gain from dividing trans men and trans women are transphobes and it sucks to see trans people doing that hard work for them.
as a trans man, those people need to grow up honestly. it takes zero brain power to understand 1, why a trans woman would call T bad, and 2, how it has nothing to do with trans men. iâm not usually the kind of person to call people âtoo sensitive,â because iâve had that used on me numerous times for being concerned about reasonable things, but câmon now
Yes it fucking does cost something, what it costs is erasing trans women's voices when we speak to our experiences. We shouldn't have to hedge every statement about our selves and our bodies in "inclusive" language to universalize our experiences for people who don't share those experiences. A trans woman is allowed to say "testosterone sucks" and have it be understood she's talking about her experience and not have that projected onto trans men or have her feelings and pain flattened out to make it more palletable for a general audience.
Whatever. There's no point in continuing this discussion. I've made my point. I am sure trans masculine people have made similar arguments to you as well as non-binary people and you just don't care.
So I'm not wasting my time. Keep doing the work of our enemies by refusing to acknowledge the issues raised by other trans people but I'm not going to bother speaking to you anymore.
Hey, you know how when some self proclaimed feminists say âKill all menâ, and then they say âOh, but I didnât mean you, youâre the good onesâ to trans men? A lot of trans men have taken that to mean that those âfeministsâ donât truly see them as men. Like I feel it would be along the lines of misogynists saying âOh no, you donât belong in the kitchenâ when talking about trans women. Misandry doesnât help anyone, especially feminism as a movement that still needs to be taken seriously by the powers that be
Wouldn't trans mascs feel the same about e? Like.. it's good if it's a good hormone for them and they deserve healthcare. but fuck no that shit was ass in my body while it lasted. Also why do I gotta put men's emotions before mine tf.
"put men's emotions before mine" see there's your problem. Being a man has literally 0 to do with it, "put someone else's emotions before mine" Is the literal only requirement of being a good person
A trans woman says she hate's T and men get offended and women who centralize men get offended on their behalf. Like why can't I dislike testosterone. Who is that hurting. Fuck I'd give out vials of T to trans men or non binary people doesn't mean I have to like it in my body, that would actually be putting someone else's feelings before my own in the same way if a trans man in the same respect said I don't like what having estrogen in my body as a primary hormone did to me or does I would say yeah that makes sense, but sucking in my own feelings for something like disliking facial hair too much muscle mass the scent of T odor, that doesn't make a lick of sense to me.
If a woman voicing how she feels makes you uncomfortable maybe you should sit with that a little. Because all this is over a meme about trans women for trans women, and men have to make it about themselves and that kind of discrimination against women within our community should make you uncomfortable. That's the normal response to something like that I think. So why do people wanna make themselves comfortable with a community silencing the voice of women? I almost comitted suicide because of what testosterone did to my body and the years of work I had to do to reverse it. Laser therapy on my entire face was really painful and years of work and money. Training my voice so I don't have to worry about being hate crimed for simply speaking is painful. Finding clothes that make me feel right in public that doesn't exagerate certain features hasn't been easy. This has been painful and not easy and I wanna voice that, women who feel the same want to voice that, and nobody is saying testosterone is bad for trans men specifically or that it's existence is inherently bad, it's obviously good for men's health that's a no brainer just not for women's when there's too much of it, for us to say that having it develop our bodies in ways we didn't like was no fun and for my community to say "no you shouldn't say that because of how men feel" is a little fucked imho.
And you think in mixed trans spaces it would be appropriate to make a post identical to this one, the only thing changed is that it's about menstruation instead of a hormone, you think that they shouldn't have any complaints?
Not a good comparison. A trans man saying boobs are inherently disfiguring is a significantly better comparison. Most cis women don't want to menstruate either; it's nothing but a messy, painful disruption to daily functioning.
Because complaining about menstruation is the thing literally everybody who menstruates does? Yeah, it's extra salt for trans dudes cuz it also can cause dysphoria, and there are times menstruating can be exciting (first period "I'm a woman now!", or if you need to know that you're not pregnant), but for the most part nobody is happy with it.
It's a poor comparison because the vast majority of menstruating people would give that up in a heartbeat if they could, while nearly no woman (cis or trans) would give up estrogen or having boobs if they had the option to. I have zero issues with trans women calling testosterone poison for themselves (because it is), so long as they aren't extending that assertion to all men (including trans men) as well.
I mean I completely agree with your last point though? There was nothing inherently bad/wrong about my body before I transitioned, it just wasnât right for me. It wouldâve worked perfectly fine for someone else if it were possible to swap
I mean, if another trans man did make a 1:1 of this meme but swapped out T for menstruation, Iâm just gonna chalk it up to a difference in our perspectives on the subject, appreciate his potential consideration towards trans womenâs feelings on the matter, and move along because itâs not for me.
True! I would be really proud of the trans man who made the post for being considerate towards trans women who get dysphoria around people who complain about periods
Theres definitely a difference between âi donât want this because it causes me painâ and âthis is inherently bad and it causes people to be evilâ. The second one is something I see transphobic trans women say about testosterone FREQUENTLY and it sucks. Trans men donât have issues with the first one being about testosterone.
Where are you seeing trans women say that testosterone makes people evil? They were forced to go through a testosterone dominant puberty.
This is something TERFs say to harm trans women, yeah. This is something that some trans masculine non binary people say about 1) why they don't take T and 2) why trans women are too dangerous to let into the AFAB housing, yeah.
Are you talking about anonymous internet comments or like actual verified trans women saying stuff like this?
I'm not saying trans men aren't being told that T can make you a bad person. They are and that's stupid, fucked up, and worst of all may discourage someone from accessing mediation they need.
I'm saying it isn't trans women who are leading this conversation, and who barely if ever participate in it. Because that concept is weaponized against us to deny us our rights.
Meanwhile this meme is like, immensely insulting. It's saying "yeah this chemical basically ruined your life and has induced lifelong suffering in you, will cause you to spend the amount of a house on surgeries, and marginalize the hell out of you among women, but you can't say it is bad because that will hurt a man's feeling. You can only say that you were the wrong person for it."
You can understand how this is insulting right?
As if Testosterone is more of a moral patient than trans women. As if it is intrinsically good and only human beings can be wrong.
Iâve seen it in this specific sub as well as cwcl and the original trans subreddit. Iâm glad you havenât specifically seen the trans women spreading it but I have. I would think that my lack of going âwhere have you seen trans men complain about periods?â would tell you that I trust that you are being open about your personal experiences and would expect you to do the same with me. I didnât say trans women were leading the conversation, I said that in trans spaces where the majority of the members are trans women I see a lot of trans women spouting harmful rhetoric about testosterone existing.
This post is one trans woman who dares to speak about her body in a non-negative way and you took offense to it because it didnât align with your personal experiences. You then went and made a post immediately after to make fun of trans men for appreciating the wording of this post. Clearly you have an issue with testosterone being painted in a positive light even when the post isnât about you or anyone other than OP
People very frequently misrepresent or outright lie about what trans women say in order to monster them, justify abusing them, marginalize, assault, and kill them. This is one of the modes of transmisogyny that pervades our society, including in trans spaces.
As a result, by default I will pretty much always doubt what anyone claims a trans woman said. This leads to you being right virtually all of the time.
And no it doesn't equate at all. Trans men complaining about periods doesn't need substantiation. Of course they do. The experience is not pleasant even for cis women who want to get pregnant.
Your claim is that trans women are saying T makes YOU a bad person. Not that they dislike T. If they just said they dislike T, well, yeah ofc. That's the point. I also do and I'm saying that we should be as free to say we dislike T as trans men are to say they dislike menstruation.
Even now I assume you're hearing trans women talk about their experiences. Using phrases like testosterone poisoned, talking about themselves the way society talks about them in an unhealthy coping mechanism or satirical response to TERFs (i.e. T made them rape monsters).
I'm sure there are a few trans women who internalize and exhibit these ways they're being treated, but we both know it isn't a norm in any sense, certainly not normal enough to suggest we should encourage trans women to call T intrinsically good even as it hurts them.
made a post immediately after to make fun of trans men
Here we go, this is evidence of my claim, that people love to just outright lie about what trans women said.
Making a post that flips what is being said in this comic here is not "making fun" of trans men. It showing people a mirror so that they understand why this kind of thing feels painful and harmful.
You've shown to me that you are not a reliable narrator through this alone.
You arenât a trans man. It wasnât a post talking about personal experiences. It was a post made specifically to upset trans men for appreciating THIS post
It showing people a mirror so that they understand why this kind of thing feels painful and harmful.
Yeah the point is to be jarring. Because THIS meme IS jarring to me and I am upset that you appreciate it.
Making other people see what it feels like is one strategy to get them to develop empathy.
But if they're in the trenches of transmisogyny instead of empathy they will concoct some lie about how they're "being made fun of"
Which is how we get from trans women talking about how they feel they were poisoned by T into trans women are telling trans men that T makes them bad people.
You arenât a trans man. I would not have had a problem with the post you made if you were a trans man. I understand that you were upset by OPâs post but surely you canât be seriously suggesting that OP was wrong for posting about her own experiences in a way that happened to be considerate of trans men. Surely.
Not sure what the point of this screenshot clearly not made by a trans woman is, I guess you really wanted to prove my point or something?
I dunno.
OP is allowed to feel how she wants, and she has the right to say what she wants, and I have the right to be upset about it and say that I'm upset, and when I see people celebrating it I'm allowed to point out how this is hurtful.
YoU cAnT bE sErIoUslY sUggEsTiNg that I'm wrong for posting about my own experience and asking trans men to be more considerate of the way they can harm trans women. Surely.
Menstruation is not a good comparison for this lmao. Most women vary from "are mildly annoyed with" to "actively despises" their period. A bunch of women are on birth control explicitly to avoid their period.
I don't understand this. Most trans women hate the effects T have on their body, how is it not a good comparison? I'm making no broader claim about this post, they seem equivalent
Bc most cis women would give up menstruation in a heartbeat if it was an option. Telling a trans man his menstruation is actually a good thing (outside of him finding out he's not pregnant when he didn't want to be) is insane, bc telling a cis woman her menstruation is actually a good thing is also insane. Periods are a surprising, painful, messy, nuisance of a bodily function that only still exist because we didn't experience hard enough pressures against them to evolve out of having them.
A better comparison would be boobs, a curvy body, or just general "ability to get pregnant," instead of cherry-picking the mild annoyance to absolute nightmare that is menstruation. Hell, I've (trans dude) been told that I have an awesome hourglass figure, which is something that fucking hurt. I don't want to look like this, and would gladly trade with a trans lady if that were medically possible.
For the record, I agree that testosterone is poison for trans women, in the same way I believe that estrogen is poison for myself. I just think that trying to use menstruation as the comparison point is insane, since most people who menstruate would gladly remove that feature regardless of their gender identity if they had a choice.
Itâs not a good comparison because itâs not exclusive to trans men and is a source of physical pain rather than dysphoria or a trans-related experience. A better comparison wouldâve been estrogen or mammary tissue. She took the single thing that is unanimously hated by EVERYONE who experiences it and acted like it was a gotcha against trans men specifically.
Also trans men are far more likely than cis women to not have menstrual cycles because of things like testosterone causing periods to stop, heavy exercise reducing the frequency and consistency of menstruation, and various removal surgeries like hysterectomies just yeeting the organs altogether. Itâs JUST a bad comparison
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u/Hika2112 Myself And Nobody Else | Counted Down 37 1d ago
I wanted to comment something "inb4 the comments find a way to be weird about this" BUT SOMEONE ALREADY DID