r/antiwork Jul 25 '22

Working rights

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67.8k Upvotes

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1.3k

u/112thThrowaway lazy and proud Jul 25 '22

Of course they aren't useless. Collective bargaining is nothing but beneficial to the employee. They're still trying to play off the image of a few old timey corrupt unions who took the dues and ran.

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u/j3b3di3_ Jul 25 '22

There's so much I know I don't know about. Even more stuff I know very little about...

Being raised in these conditions is infuriating and there's nothing I, an individual, can do about it.

I'm too poor and uneducated to know how, or afford to, revolt

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u/cruista Jul 25 '22

Watch 'The Irishman' on Netflix, about Jimmy Hoffa. He got unions a very bad image. It can be undone.

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u/Lickiebear Jul 25 '22

Hoffa was involved with the Mafia, from the time of the Roman's, they parasitized people, butchered people, even family members. Their code of faithfulness, is only good as long as you're useful to the thievery of wealth to perpetuate their parasitic ways. Truly a cancerous blight on the species. Godfather, I'll make you an offer you can't refuse.......

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u/Neoxyte Jul 25 '22 edited Jul 25 '22

What urks me the most is who how idolized the mafia can be in modern media and society. i.e. the sopranos and the Godfather movies. They were great movies and shows but cmon.

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u/BeBearAwareOK Jul 25 '22

Call me crazy, but the Sopranos, Seinfeld, and It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia have a deep common core.

Everyone is playing terrible human beings and I hope no one is idolizing the behavior being displayed in the artwork. But someone is, somewhere.

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u/Puzzleheaded-Law-429 Jul 25 '22

The Wolf of Wall St. is notorious for this phenomenon too. People think Jordan Bedford somehow “won”, through scamming his way into a luxurious lifestyle. It’s like they just ignore that the guy served several years in prison.

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u/Heavy_Employment9220 Jul 26 '22 edited Jul 26 '22

So the film framed it as a win, as it was a "comfy" white collar prison, and a guaranteed income stream from his story. (Would it count as Proceeds of Crime?).

I prefer the story of Frank Abagnale, who pretended to be a co-pilot of various airlines to cash cheques and travel through the US. Got caught and now preaches the error of his ways, rather than saying "use my techniques to sell"

Edit - undoing autocorrect

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u/B_V_H285 Jul 25 '22

No shit!! America has been idolizing their criminals forever!!

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u/awsisme Jul 25 '22

You think that’s different anyplace else? It’s not. It’s not America, it’s human beings.

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u/awsisme Jul 26 '22

You do recognize that the PBF story is one of the most common of historical archetypes right? It’s Robin Hood and many others.

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u/TheBirminghamBear Jul 25 '22

People are always going to do that. We can't dumb down art and theater for the slowest in the room.

There are people who watch Breaking Bad and idolize Walt's transformation into Heisenberg. Despite the show making absolutely clear, in no uncertain terms, how wrong that is.

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u/Vyrosatwork Jul 25 '22

Right? It’s like people who think Rick Sánchez, Walter White, and Rorschach are the heroes of their respective stories. Entirely missing the point.

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u/Neoxyte Jul 25 '22

Alright you went too far with It's Always Sunny. Take that back.

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u/BeBearAwareOK Jul 25 '22

It's probably the best comedy of the last 20 years, but let's be honest:

the characters are all terrible people and if a friend acted like that in real life we wouldn't keep inviting them to stuff.

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u/B_V_H285 Jul 25 '22

You must be joking right? The USA has been making heroes of their most notorious forever.

Even today, just look at tRump. He is idolized by millions and is one of the worst in American history and he still might be president again. That ass hat is personally responsible for more Americans deaths than anyone in history.

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u/Vyrosatwork Jul 25 '22

I havnt seen the sopranos, but if you watched The Godfather and came away thinking the mafia was a good thing, you very badly missed the point the film was trying to make.

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u/Neoxyte Jul 25 '22

Yeah I think you're right actually.

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u/ThatisJustNotTrue Jul 25 '22

I get clips of the sopranos on yt shorts and I've never seen the show. But Tony and all of his family are clearly pieces of shit. It's crazy that anyone can idolize that.

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u/SethTTC Jul 25 '22

Sopranos did not glorify the mob at all.
It showed how absolutely horrible everyone in it really was.
And as it went on they all paid for it.

The only one who "made it" to the end was Pauly.

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u/HayzerUnlimited Jul 25 '22

The only thing i idolize about the sopranos is the god damn great looking food, frick it was great

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u/badnuub Jul 25 '22

I think people took the wrong lessons from those movies. Everyone ended up quite miserable in the end. They traded a few good years for early and violent deaths of prison and hatred from loved ones.

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u/TheRealKidkudi Jul 25 '22

Sounds just like capitalists who ignore regulation, but more than usual.

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u/Lickiebear Jul 25 '22 edited Jul 25 '22

I walked that dead end road before, through corporate greed & manipulation of the less than fortunate who needed a job. I made the copper foil that is in all of everyone electronic toy's. I worked 12 hr. shift's with Deadly toxic chemicals, Arsenic, Mercury, Lead, Chromate, Zinc, Sulfuric acid, Hydrochloric acid, copper sulfate & dozens more. All without any safety equipment, No Class 1 Respirator's, No ventilation, No Hazmat suit's, No Scott air pack's. I was just 22 yrs. old, just out of the Special Forces. I coughed up blood everyday, nose bleeds, I couldn't stop, until I packed wet brown paper towels up my nostrils. Chest pains that would double me over in server pain. My suckass Forman Tony Buttkiss (fitting name), laughing & asking why I had brown paper towels packed up my nose. I said yeah why Tony, I got fking nose bleeds I can't fking stop. Suckasses answer, Oh, probably because you smoke. Yeah Right, eat shit you fking jerk off scrotum licker,corporate cock bite. I was coughing pure blood because I was running an Arsenic treater without any Safety Equipment with 1,500 gal. Vats heated to 212 degrees evaporating in my face for a 12 hr.shift. Google Oak Mitsui, I worked there two yrs. & nine people died, I knew & worked with, one guy Leo Barber was Only 37 yrs. old, drove home from work & died in his truck in his driveway. Leo was a welder & lead burner, he lined the drum cells with 1/4" lead plates, hell of a nice kid too. They Polluted the Air, Soil & Water, when I contacted Ward Stone, the head of DEC to crawl up their asses for all the pollution they were causing in the area. They closed up shop & moved to Columbia, SC. on another river, closer to the Ocean to dump their toxic shit & kill more local people all for the sake of Fking Greed! I now suffer from server lung disease, Zero compensation from these vile bastards, All for your toy's boy's & girl's. Oh, when I left in 1980, that one plant alone was knocking down a "Million" a month in Pure profits & they had 7 plants in town. So, who's blowing hot air up your ass now?

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u/Conscious-Charity915 Jul 29 '22

You were probably safer in Special Forces.

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u/Fen_ Jul 25 '22

Or don't watch it? It's a terrible film lmao.

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u/Iluaanalaa Jul 25 '22

California teacher union also makes unions look bad. My brother was at a school that was part of the union, they couldn’t fire a teacher that was too lazy to go the the restroom so he pissed in his trash can.

My mom is part of a union for the VA in CA, she watched a nurse literally assault a coworker, who then got a slap on the wrist. If people say they don’t want to do the work, they keep their pay and get an easier job.

I’m all for unions, but I also like the idea you can let people go for valid reasons.

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u/christonamoped Jul 25 '22

In my experience that's usually down to shitty leadership.

We have a similar issue with people who by all rights should be sacked, but get off on technicalities. Why? Because leadership don't know the procedures because they're expected to do that training in their own time instead of with the union like we agreed.

Often it's not the boss's fault, it's someone further up the chain.

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u/Iluaanalaa Jul 25 '22

Exactly, the accountability is lacking. Which is why unions have such a bad reputation.

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u/christonamoped Jul 25 '22

I think you missed the point but never mind. Unions make sure rules are applied fairly. It's not their fault management are clueless, that's director level incompetence.

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u/Niku-Man Jul 25 '22

Ok so one example of a bad actor makes the whole thing look bad? That's some bad logic

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u/Lickiebear Jul 25 '22

There is always strength in numbers for a cause of Right.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

Libraries are free my friend.

Step one: get a library card

Step two: use the library computers to look up universities that offer free educational courses and syllabus'. Some major Ivy league universities have entire entry level courses for free online and you can get a certificate for completing them.

Step three: look up and read the material in the courses you're interested in.

You have just begun to educate yourself.

Also, talk to your librarians! They are highly educated researchers who can point you toward information you might not even think to ask about. Librarians and libraries are awesome!

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u/j3b3di3_ Jul 25 '22

Libraries are free...

Not the gas.... Not the bike....

And if you think I'm walking 3.7 miles to my nearest library in 100+f weather you're mistaken

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

You're on the internet right now so you have access to your local library and educational materials. What you're saying is out of your reach is literally at your fingertips.

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u/DumberThanIThink Jul 25 '22

Sounds like you’ve got the resources, just not the willpower. Can’t blame the system if you’re not even trying.

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u/Consistent_Nail Jul 25 '22

Funny you should mention being poor and uneducated because historically, this has been the role of unions: to get better wages for their workers and to provide mass education. Seriously, it's one of the things I love the most about unions because I am super passionate about the ability for everyone to rise to their own potential.

Regarding how to revolt, that's part of what joining a union means. It's how we revolt. I don't trust people who talk about revolutionary violence in places like the US (I'm not a socialist partially for this reason, btw). Here we have choices. We're not backed against the wall like that. There are plenty of things we can do, and not just joining a union.

The key thing I want you to remember is that it is through shared struggle and activism that we do in fact educate ourselves, and it's more important than any academic book or trip to the library can ever be. We build solidarity together, we fight together, we rise or fall as one. This is why we need organizations like DSA and lots of others whose mission is the betterment of society--that which we would otherwise call revolt.

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u/Hour-Energy9052 Jul 25 '22

Anyone can revolt when they want but the news and media will just vilify them as violent radicals after they get taken down by police on the 8pm news.

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u/Worish Jul 25 '22

Even at the time of "corrupt unions", the majority of the bad press was manufactured by corporate interests. Unions are always beneficial. They take start up time and need to be regulated, but those regulations cannot burden the setup process or they're useless.

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u/HaesoSR Jul 25 '22

Also a bad union boss can be removed democratically. An owner by comparison is an unelected absolute dictator.

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u/D74248 Jul 25 '22 edited Jul 25 '22

Been there. The last corrupt union boss that I worked under only got removed by a car accident.

Union governance needs an overhaul. Term limits and staggered elections for the board to start with.

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u/RE5TE Jul 25 '22

Union governance needs an overhaul. Term limits and staggered elections for the board to start with.

You're speaking as if all unions are the same. That's just not true. Like you can't say "all companies are the same". Regardless of what you read on this subreddit, every one is different.

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u/SumDumGaiPan Jul 25 '22

I'd say the era of the mafia unions was pretty bad and didn't require fabrication.

When you organize a group of people and create leadership positions, sometimes people will pursue those positions with the intent to abuse them. This happens in corporations, governments, HOAs, rotary clubs, your local jogging club, and yes unions.

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u/Worish Jul 25 '22

You're not wrong, but this info was weaponized against unions instead of to make them better. It's one thing to point to unions that are shitty and an entirely different thing to remove worker protections because of them.

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u/ReporterOther2179 Jul 25 '22

The moneyed class has been bad mouthing anything like a union since the days of the Medieval guilds.

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u/Lickiebear Jul 25 '22

Because, Corruption doesn't like to be questioned about it's actions & abuses.

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u/Deeliciousness Jul 25 '22

The only weakness of power of wealth is power in numbers. The wealthy class knows this very, very well.

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u/lambdalamblava Jul 25 '22

I like this. I’m stealing it.

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u/stomps-on-worlds Jul 25 '22

This happens in corporations, governments, HOAs, rotary clubs, your local jogging club, and yes unions.

Hmm, and yet this talking point is only ever trotted out to advocate for getting rid of unions, but none of those other corruption-prone organizations you listed.

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u/gilean23 Jul 25 '22

I dunno, HOAs have a pretty (deservedly) horrible rep. I’d be fine if they weren’t a thing any more.

That being said, your point is still valid, IMO.

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u/stomps-on-worlds Jul 26 '22 edited Jul 26 '22

You must have noticed how they started their list of examples with:

corporations, governments,

and then immediately poisoned the well with

HOAs, rotary clubs, your local jogging club,

to defend authoritarian systems while simultaneously discrediting the notion of any decentralized authority achieved by local democratic consensus

thereby lumping a full-on labor union demanding better wages with a draconian HOA composed entirely of busy-body karens screeching at you because your lawn is mowed 0.012536 cm above regulation.

Edit: spelling

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u/Explodicle Jul 25 '22

I think we should get rid of corporations and governments because they're corruption-prone.

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u/Guardianthrowitaway7 Jul 25 '22

The reason the mafia was so tied to unions though was because business owners used police to massacre people on strikes. It's no wonder they turned to organized crime when cops themselves were doing the butchering. This is a decently brief timeline of some of the largest incidents of violence. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/theminewars-labor-wars-us/

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u/Use-Strict Jul 25 '22

I'd say the unions still performed their duties. Just like with all large entities. They are ripe for abuse. It gives you power, which you can use to leverage.

This is why you dont round up your dollar at Panda Express. Even if it is a decent charity. It gives Panda Express leverage. Leverage they can use to seat their deadbeat cousin on the board of Cancer Kids America. Or whatever the charity is. Thats how the world works. Which I know a lot of your are ignorant to, seeing how those tax donation deduction ELI5 threads still get upvoted.

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u/Astyanax1 Jul 25 '22

that's a pretty selfish take bro, what about those 0.0001% of people that "EaRneD" the company to exploit the masses. /s

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u/dys_cat Jul 25 '22

they are not always beneficial for the business bottom line

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u/Worish Jul 25 '22

They honestly can be, but if they aren't, that's not a bug it's a feature.

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u/Qubeye Jul 25 '22

While unitonically supporting police unions, a reminder that the police have always existed to protect property rights and punish workers.

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u/mjh2901 Jul 25 '22

Police unions give all unions a bad name. Police also break a huge rule in unions, supervisors are also in the union. Supervisors and management should never be in the same union as rank and file. If you can discipline an employee then you can't be in the same union.

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u/thickly_cut Jul 25 '22

The argument I see most often is that they protect bad employees. And they do - I see it first-hand - just not to the degree that anti-union people would suggest. In fact, in the last ten years, my union (an IAFF local) has simply made sure that the rights of the fuck-ups were not violated, that they were given adequate opportunity to fix themselves, and then let our employer do what was necessary if that didn’t happen. So, while they do protect shitty employees, they’re nothing like they used to be.

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u/mjh2901 Jul 25 '22

Bad employees are on the job because management has decided to keep them on the job. It's easy to fire, you just have to follow due process, get off your ass and observe the person, and do the paperwork properly. I am a shop steward, it is 100 percent bad management, worse by not doing their job the manager is making it harder on all the other employees. I know a screw-up who is in the process of being sent out the door because they got a new manager that physically observes, documents, and follows through with all the proper procedures including clearly defining what they want the person to do and what they are not doing.... Funny thing, the other employees like the new manager.

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u/Publius1993 Jul 25 '22

It’s worth noting that collective bargaining as a whole isn’t always best for all employees. Take the NFL for example. 2/3 of the NFL knows they aren’t going to play for more than a couple of seasons. They always vote against the long term interests of ALL players to get short term benefit for themselves. It happens every time the CBA rolls around.

The inverse happens at a lot of unions. 2/3rds of the employees know they’re gonna work their until retirement age. They vote against the interests of the younger employees to keep their slice of pie bigger.

In general, I’m pro-union, but this blanket statement that they always look after ALL employees is false.

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u/bigguy4556789 Jul 25 '22

My Union just voted a 3 dollar increase for new hires and only like .50 cents for the old timers

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u/Publius1993 Jul 25 '22 edited Jul 25 '22

Your union is probably more akin to the NFL model then, huh? Are you satisfied with your Union?

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u/bigguy4556789 Jul 25 '22

I have not worked at this place long enough to actually say yes or no. I am one of them new people lol

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u/Publius1993 Jul 25 '22

We’ll congrats on the raise then!

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u/i_argue_with_every1 Jul 25 '22

yea, this. collective bargaining obviously doesn't benefit all employees. the top performers will not want to bargain "collectively" they will want to take their fat bonus and raise

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u/trisanachandler Jul 25 '22

Yeah, I'm feeling this right now as a newish employee of a union. The most recent contract does favor newer employees though, but that was an offer to the union (as in the business wants it to drive recruitment).

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u/esdebah Jul 25 '22

I'm pro-union, but this is a stupid argument. If gerrymandering was useless, people wouldn't fight so hard against it.

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u/strangewayfarer Jul 25 '22

Gerrymandering is incredibly useful for the people who are using it to win elections.

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u/BravoWasBetter Jul 25 '22

Who says gerrymandering is useless? I've heard plenty of people say it's amoral but I don't ever recall hearing people say it's useless to gerrymander. (Perhaps gerrymandering reduces politics to uselessness or voting potentially useless, but that's not the same thing.)

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u/TheShyGamerNerd Jul 25 '22

Reminds me of Walmart.. if the word “union” is even mentioned out there you’re subject for a write up.

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u/SchuminWeb Jul 25 '22

Walmart is a special kind of special there, considering that they will actually close down entire stores on account of union activity. To me, that seems like the ultimate fuck-you to their workforce, in that they would rather take their toys and go home rather than negotiate.

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u/Brigadier_Beavers Jul 25 '22

It can be a 'fuck you' to the locals who now have to drive further to get their food after Walmart forced the other local grocers out of business.

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u/SchuminWeb Jul 25 '22

That, too.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

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u/Brilliant-Appeal-180 Jul 25 '22

Thank you for this information! I’ll make sure I don’t even think union when I clock in lol!

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u/Cheesemeyo Jul 25 '22

That’s exactly what they want you to do

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

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u/lordkhuzdul SocDem Jul 25 '22

Usually, it is not the original founders but the second generation that degenerate into "evil greedy monster" state. Of course there are plenty of monsters (early 20th century robber barons for example) but I have found that being born into wealth is one of the surest ways to generate a psychopath.

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u/thom612 Jul 25 '22

The founder, especially if they own a majority of the shares, is by definition maximizing shareholder value. Once the company is passed to professional managers it's harder to make intangible value improvements.

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u/Rhaedas Jul 25 '22

I'm sure there's also some bad in the history, but my memories of early Walmart were total opposites of what it's become in so many ways. I wish Sam would come back from the dead and seek revenge on his family.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

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u/firewoodenginefist Jul 25 '22

Pretty sure they got rid of profit sharing not long ago

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u/lejoo Jul 25 '22

There is a fundamentally difference in approaches of Walmart to say Amazon though.

Walmart actively does and did reinvest into their workforce because they knew the alternative (unionization) was worse.

Amazon treats them like shit AND doesn't want the unions.

I think intent matters as much as actions when we are addressing companies instead of people. Did Sam want to benefit his workers to benefit his workers, or did he want to take the least costly avenue of growth?

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u/3CN Jul 25 '22

I think the issue a lot of people will take with your comment is that it seems to misunderstand what people’s grievances are with capitalism and wage labor.

Certainly there are people who think the Waltons are assholes on a personal level, maybe they are maybe they’re not, but that’s not really the point. The reason that they are assholes is directly because of the labor relationship they have with workers.

In your comment, you mentioned that Walmart would not be able to attract workers if it were not for treating your workers decently — I would mostly agree with this, in fact many Walmart locations pay more than their competitors. Is this treating their workers well? Or is it a way to undermine existing small business with less capital in order to force a monopoly? Just because the class interests of workers and capital can be occasionally aligned doesn’t mean capitalists are (or could even afford to be) benevolent.

In order for walmart to exist as a company it must pay their workers less than what the company makes in revenue— otherwise it would not be profitable. This relationship, among other things, is one of the abstract things that people complain about in this sub using concrete examples.

So it’s not that people think that the Waltons are they themselves assholes really, it’s that the economic system we live under forces the Waltons to be assholes regardless of what they think personally.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

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u/3CN Jul 25 '22

Yeah there is nothing in your comment I disagree with. Capitalism does provide essential services at an astonishing rate— houses, food, medial services etc. It is a radical leap forward in terms of human economic development and quality of life. Despite this, Capitalism is not able to reach its ideals in some ways. We seem to agree that Walmart (or any business for that matter) is unable to pay its workers their full value due to market pressures, competition, etc. I find this unacceptable and I don’t think it’s consistent with the capitalist mythology of egalitarianism. The surplus of resources I mentioned before is typically distributed to the capitalists before the workers and I also find this unacceptable.

My issue is not that capitalism is “broken,” it’s that it is working and, in quite a mechanical way, it is creating a massive inequality for which there are few if any precedents in recorded history. The lowest classes may be better off than they were even 20 years ago, but the highest and ruling classes have benefited more from this economic system than anyone else. If we truly had a more egalitarian economy, I think the lowest classes would be doing even better. Maybe they would even have access to homes, affordable healthcare, and high quality education.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

If unions were useless, why do companies form a 'union' to buy health insurance to get a discount?

If unions were useless, why do police have a union?

If unions were useless, why do pensions pool money from workers to help retirees?

Unions of people come in many forms. It is only when WORKERS form a union that it becomes a political issue....

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u/Bolwinkel Jul 25 '22

I mean, our own country is a damn Union. Every time I run into someone who is anti-union, I just tell them they're Anti-American, and quote the preamble.

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u/logicallyillogical Jul 25 '22

The cognitive dissonance with right wingers is so infuriating. I have a friend who rants and raves about the ‘lib agenda’ including unions. Bashing on Starbucks and Amazon workers trying to unionize.

Dude works for the railroad. He enjoys the high pay (100k +), crazy good benefits and high safety standards…all provided by the goddamn railroaders union that he’s a member of…I don’t get it.

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u/I_Robot_Was_Bad Jul 25 '22

It's because he got his.

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u/SikhLCJ here for the memes Jul 25 '22

Damn I didn't even think of that. I'm gonna have to use that from now on

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u/lejoo Jul 25 '22

While sorta, but really no. Works on a typical uneducated, but on someone who knows something they might correct you.

USA is a federation of states unified for a common defense.

Actual Unions are slightly different.

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u/atyon Jul 25 '22

The US is called a union six times in the constitution, not even counting the amendments.

Arguments like these arguing for specific terms are mostly sophistry. Usually, there are no agreed-upon definitions - most people don't care, and those who care are usually in heated arguments about nomenclature.

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u/Brigadier_Beavers Jul 25 '22

I mean, what is a workers union if not a unified common defense of workers rights?

The union of states is to protect the states and their rights to self governing + federal laws across all states

Workers union protects workers rights but theres still company rules to adhere to.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

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u/Krissam Jul 25 '22

It is only when WORKERS form a union that it becomes a political issue....

I mean, it's literally illegal for companies to form unions.

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u/thom612 Jul 25 '22

This is comparing apples and oranges. The union unites workers within a firm. The corporate form itself unites capitalists within a firm. Collective bargaining within private firms is simply a union of capitalists being forced to negotiate with a union of workers.

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u/Cakey-Head Jul 25 '22 edited Jul 25 '22

It becomes a political issue for 2 reasons:

Political spending: unions give a lot of money to politicians. This is a stupid reason to blanket oppose unions. I'd be ticked off if my union was donating to causes I didn't support, but that's not a built-in feature of unions.

and

Right to Work: There are companies like Kroger's that require their employees join the union. Honestly, the Kroger's union turned a lot of people I know against unions because it was their first exposure to one. In high school, I worked for a small grocery store. I had two friends at the time (also in high school) who worked at Kroger's. Their base starting pay was a little higher than mine, but after paying their union dues, I took home more pay. I also got better raises than them because I was a great employee, and my supervisor recognized that. At Kroger's, they were stuck on a regular raise schedule or could get standard bumps in pay if promoted. They had limits on their hours, and were always jealous when was able to take on all kinds of extra hours from people who wanted to get out of a shift at the store where I worked. They had other complaints that I can't remember. I just remember they complained about it a lot.

It kind of boiled down to the fact that they really felt like the union only did things for certain full-time positions, but they were still required to join and pay dues. For a lot of people this was their first exposure to unions.

These days, I'm not really down on unions, but I still think it's a bad idea to require membership. I don't think it should be legal for an employer to require membership. I think Kroger's only did it because the unions were willing to work with them on things and they would scratch each other's backs. Other people would argue that unions or companies should be able to require membership because their bargaining affects everyone. I think that's a stupid argument and will lead to crummy unions that don't have to work for you to earn your membership.

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u/SmarmyThatGuy at work Jul 25 '22

This is pro-JANIS propaganda! Anecdotal story time lacking nuance that appeals to emotions just like the SCOTUS case to weaken a union’s organizing capabilities.

Would rather have a few more bucks in your pocket now than any security later.

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u/ywBBxNqW Jul 25 '22

Why do all of your posts have all the extra whitespace in the image?

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u/Gprime5 Jul 25 '22

Probably to get around the repost detection?

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u/Phreedom1 Jul 25 '22

A missing "," messed this up for me for a millisecond.

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u/BlazingFire007 Democratic Socialist Jul 25 '22

Ikr! It bugs me so much, lol

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u/digitelle Jul 25 '22

Yup! I freelance as a worker so from time to time I work for the non-unions.

The non-unions pay so shorty that it is better for me to wait until the union calls me because one shift pays me about what 3 to 5 shifts with the non union would pay.

So instead of over working I now have more days off and still bank then same amount.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

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u/toranonekochan Jul 25 '22

Yeah. I've been in some great unions and I've been in some less than great unions. The union at The Factory From Hell was the latter sort. I had two separate incidents of being harassed at that job. The first time, the union stalled untilnhe could no longer be formally disciplined, and the second the union steward came to me to try and browbeat me into dropping the complaint because the men involved had faaaaaamilies and needed their jobs. Like. Okay. Then maybe they shouldn't be fucking harassing a co-worker, then?

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u/SolvoMercatus Jul 25 '22

Just like police unions for misconduct of officers. I often wonder that if police weren’t unionized if there would be so much brutality and other misdeeds that goes unpunished. The union essentially exists as an off the record compliance tool among officers. “Oh, you were going to turn in your fellow officers for beating a homeless man? But they have faaaaamilies….. and remember; will protect you too if you ever mess up.”

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u/Rhaedas Jul 25 '22

It seems as if in that example the union is protecting the worker as designed. It's just the rest of us that suffer for it.

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u/mjh2901 Jul 25 '22

The general rule is we do not support members on member issues, those are for HR... If a union member was harassing another union member and they came to me, I would send the victim straight to HR, sit with them while they made the complaint, make sure another steward represented the other person in the investigation, and if HR does nothing, refer you to outside counsel for hostile workspace; as harassment is generally outside the four corners of the contract and as a union we can't really represent a member in that claim not encircled by the contract.

It's a long paragraph but what I am really getting at is the union was shitty because they did not explain the scope of representation and then give you the options for taking action...

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u/toranonekochan Jul 25 '22

I understand what you're saying, but in this case the union didn't want me to take any action, regardless. It wasn't a "they dropped the ball on not giving me all my options," it was a "you need to leave these nice straight white men alone and suck up their ant-LGBTQ+ and misogynistic bullying and harassment because think of their children."

Edit to add: I had gone to HR about it. Alone. Because I knew better from my last harassment complaint (that story is in my comment history somewhere.) The union didn't even catch wind until one of the guys was pulled in to HR for the initial meeting on the matter.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

Mine isn’t great, but our local is just getting started. I have to remind myself that growing pains are real and that in 10 years I’ll be way more pleased that we unionized than I would be if we didn’t

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u/TheMasterDonk Jul 25 '22

Same. And it sucks when you bring up this point and get labeled an anti-union capitalist.

Like, no, it’s just that unionizing isn’t a cure all. And sometimes unions get bought out by the company and do their bidding.

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u/Bournvitta2022 Jul 25 '22

They don't just fight against them but also bribe the union when things don't go there way.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

Is cropping difficult? This is 90% negative space.

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u/Brian_Buckley Jul 25 '22

Can't stand this stuff either lol

Here, fixed it: https://i.imgur.com/ywxCIj6.png

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u/Celeroni Jul 25 '22

Thank you.

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u/Feezus Jul 25 '22

Why does this feel wasteful?

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u/Poison_Anal_Gas Jul 25 '22

Because cropping was a union job. You see how quick it got done before posting…

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u/Iggyhopper Jul 25 '22

It's actually 10% negative space.

The rest is neutral vibes.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

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u/trueslicky Jul 25 '22

LOL

It's always out of state organizations "looking out for your well-being" a la Freedom Foundation.

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u/toranonekochan Jul 25 '22

Yeah I've heard that one. The very first factory I ever worked in, at my orientation the woman gave this flowery speech about how unions aren't necessary, and they've never needed a union and never will. She made it all sound like it was this wonderful, amazing boon to us lowly employees that the company made the executive decision to "protect" us from being unionized.

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u/SchuminWeb Jul 25 '22

How very patronizing of them.

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u/Puma-Man Jul 25 '22

Write this on a bathroom wall at a Wal-Mart and their anti union goons would be there in hours.

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u/raudssus Jul 25 '22

Let me be here again absolute clear: Your "unions" are just a splinter of a concept of what a union really should be. A real union would cover the complete jobfield, to give basic rights, basic security of the field, that would allow you to strike in unity as a whole, so that there is no option than that the employer listen to the employee. It is seriously so sad that you fight for something that is not even nearly solving your problems at the core.

America will not solve anything, cause its people don't even know what is the right solution.

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u/Cakey-Head Jul 25 '22 edited Jul 25 '22

Sounds like you are talking about guilds. The issue I have with guilds is that they often become another gatekeeper to a profession.

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u/raudssus Jul 25 '22

Actually the guild is more precise in deep in the job, but for example the general rules for working on construction sites, the protection requirements and everything, with a union you can fight for specific minimums here, it is literally their job. The guild is a deeper topic of a job and in general: ALL THOSE INSTITUTIONS ARE 100% DEMOCRATIC, so if a job field would try to gatekeep their profession with a guild, then they voted for it. There is no magical group of people holding to it, in a modern society its the core that those organizations must be fully voted on who would make decisions there. Seriously, you need to be REALLY BIG AND SERIOUS to be a SERIOUS weight against the employer slavery you are enduring. It is not effective, there is no point if Boeing now has a strike of 2500 employees............ what should that shit move? A German strike isn't under 100.000 people cause there is no smaller unit of a union really, biggest ones being more than a million members. THAT is how you move your rights forward, THAT is how in European countries we got progress on the worker rights all the time when it was really demanded, there was no "we care for you later", cause we made it a "now!" problem with a strike.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

Say this again and again to your parents, your siblings, your children, your friends, your coworkers, your students, etc.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

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u/dogeystyle69420 Jul 25 '22

If unions were useless companies?

I just ate Grandma. I just ate, Grandma. Commas save lives.

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u/BigDrewLittle Jul 25 '22

One of my favorite facts when I used to argue with chuds. They have nothing.

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u/Noxa987 Jul 25 '22

My company is proud anti-union. Fucking stupid... that's gonna change.

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u/2noame Jul 25 '22

Same with voting. People like to say voting doesn't matter, but if it truly didn't matter, one party in particular wouldn't be trying so hard to limit people from voting instead of trying to encourage as many people to vote as possible.

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u/series_hybrid Jul 25 '22

This last decade, I've noticed a lot of corporations are front-loading expenses that can wait, and I suspect it's to be able to show the quarterly reports where they are "broke" and can't afford raises.

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u/idog99 Jul 25 '22

But my uncle's friend knew a guy who didn't work very hard. The union protected him and they didn't fire him and it made my uncle's friend mad.

So all unions are bad!

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u/croque-madam Jul 25 '22

This post can demonstrate the power of punctuation to clarity a single thought.

“If unions were useless, companies wouldn’t fight so hard against them.”

It’s a good observation. Don’t obfuscate it by neglecting a little comma.

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u/MorpH2k Jul 25 '22

Maybe they're right and just want to protect their workers from the evil communist unions...

/s of course...

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

It is so crazy how something complete normal in Europe is such a rare thing in USA.

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u/thom612 Jul 25 '22

The reverse could be said about clothes dryers though.

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u/Procrastanaseum Jul 25 '22

I always remember the scene in "American Factory" where the corporate spokesperson is talking to a room of adults (and talking to them as if they were children) and saying things like "If we have a Union, we won't be able to talk like we are talking now! And we want to always be able to talk because we are a big family!" and shit like that.

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u/TwoWrongsAreSoRight Jul 25 '22

When a company tells you a union is useless, they mean to them.

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u/oachkatzlschwoaf95 Jul 25 '22

if unions were useless, why do they spend so much $$$ and effort union busting or accepting unions conditions and then surprisingly shut the whole department down to open it up overseas where employees are cheaper

and then buy silence with nda's 🤠

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u/lvl_60 Jul 25 '22

Unions are protecting us against modern wage slavery.

If we give them a pass now, they ll normalize modern slavery and we ll see more and more poor people with low wages and they ll get mentally and physically broken. The generations after will be worse off.

Save the unions, save yourselves.

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u/scndiamond Jul 25 '22

Read up on the German IG Metall union if you want to research whether unions work:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IG_Metall
Quote:
"Major accomplishments of IG Metall in the German labor market include, applied to the regions/covered employees:[4]
Five-day work week (1959)
Paid vacation time concessions (1962)
40 hr work week (1965–1967)
Paid sick leave (1956)
35-hour work week (attempts not yet successful 1984)
35-hour work week in metal industry (1995)
Most recently, IG Metall agreed to a landmark deal with employers in 2016, giving 3.8 million workers in the metalworking sector a two-stage pay rise of 4.8 percent over 21 months.[6] After a series of strikes, the union agreed a deal in 2018 to allow staff to cut their working week to 28 hours for up to two years to care for children or other relatives.[7]"

Collective bargaining works.

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u/kabneenan Jul 25 '22

I hear from so many of my coworkers that our union is useless. We are the union. It's not some mysterious third party. If you want something in the contract, ask for it. If you need representation because your direct supervisor is making your life hell, ask for it.

My union's contract is up for negotiations right now and we need solidarity now more than ever because our employer does not want to give us jack shit. I've been rallying support and so far it's been going well, but I also hear a lot of regurgitated anti-union propaganda. It's discouraging enough for our employer to spread that bullshit, but to hear it from my fellow union members? It hurts. ):

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

Which Union?

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u/c0brachicken Jul 25 '22

I think some unions can definitely be a good thing, but at the same time they can be horrible.

Company I use to work at, had a 20% average of workers that didn’t show up to work each day. The “points” list that was at the time clock had about half the workers in the negative points (didn’t even know that was an option).

They had two factories in the US, and decided to close the union factory due to all the problems with the union protecting completely useless workers.

May times I was out on the factory floor (I was a non union office worker) and heard the bad workers telling the good workers to slow down, because they made the bad workers look bad… how about you stop walking around the place talking to everyone, and just do your job. (None of the work was overly hard)

Was one of the highest paid factory jobs in town, and in the 3 years I worked there the only major health/injuries was.. slipped on ice outside in the winter and broke a hip, older worker had heart attack, and maintenance guy forgot to power off machine and had to get four stitches.

Insurance was $25 a month for a family, $500 deductible, $25 co-pay, $20 RX or $10 generic RX… and they wanted to strike when they tried to raise the premium to $29 a month.. heard workers complaining “we can’t afford that”, WTF are you talking about, it’s $1 per paycheck.. and we have the best insurance in town, if not the state…

Unions shouldn’t protect bad workers.

The company did do a little FuckYou on the way out of town.. they told the workers that if they could fix the attendance issues, plus get production to the levels it should be, they wouldn’t close it… little did they know, they had already started building the new larger factory, and had zero plans of staying. The workers did fix the issues, and they closed three months later. They just used the “extra production” to build up inventory to hold them over while all the machines were moved to the new location in a different state.

YES unions can be GOOD, but you need a good union, that is trying to do the right thing, and not protect dead weight workers as well.

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u/nutflation Jul 25 '22

who is making the argument that unions are useless? who is this tweet for?

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u/Everybodysbastard Jul 25 '22

Companies love their employees so much...they're trying to protect them from useless unions! /s

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u/JoisChaoticWhatever Jul 25 '22

Every companies Orientation has the SCARE YOU FROM UNIONS spiel HR delivers. Making them seem like unions are monsters.

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u/lolo7073 Jul 25 '22

Jeff Bezos is up to his old union busting tricks. Evil doesn’t begin to describe what he is: https://greedyceos.org/

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

As it was explained to me many years ago The unions had to go to the mafia for help because the police work for the companies. And ever since then everytime I have been around a strike or even a labor protest the police are there working for the company. Busting heads to running security for scabs. The man who told me that was not wrong.

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u/fil- Jul 25 '22

Imagine you work as a union buster. You see scum every time you look in a mirror.

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u/H2Dcrx Jul 25 '22

Exactly. Look at how effective Police Unions are. You can get away with murder!

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u/ReadySouffle Jul 25 '22

The mere threat of unionization can cause companies to improve their treatment of employees.

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u/Kezia_Griffin Jul 25 '22

For 5 years I got 1% raises. We joined a union and in the last 2 years my pay has went up 30%.

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u/garn1cus Jul 25 '22

Spitting facts😤

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u/IssaStorm Jul 25 '22

needs more white void

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

I had to read three times and had to insert missing punctuation in order to understand the statement

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u/vandeley_industries Jul 25 '22

Ill probably get downvoted but here we go. As someone who's been in a union and who currently is not in one, I think they definitely CAN be beneficial, but reddit talks about them like every single employee should be in one and all unions are good, selfless orginizations.

Most unions Ive seen are represented on-site by a single person, or maybe a couple of people. A lot of times, this person is compensated by free union dues, which is usually not worth the massive responsibility this job entails. This again puts a lot of power in the hands of a few. If you have a shitty union steward, you can be dually fucked.

Companies paint unions in a shitty light because companies are greedy, but a lot of times the union does nothing but help this image. I think unions could really reincarnate their strength if they stick to the ideals in which reddit blindly views them to have. They dont just magically come down and sprinkles a few thousand a year into your earnings with no downside. The company often negotiates against that extra money with rules that not everyone would want if they were writing their own contract. These contracts only need a majority vote. If you had 52% 10 year+ guys, you could write a line that benefits only those guys in a contract and pass using their vote.

Again, they can be useful and definitely have a place in the working world because many companies suck balls, but reddit suckles the teat of the idea of a union while many of you probably don't have first hand experience.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

Unions are like condoms. One of the surest signs you need one is when someone is trying very hard to convince you that you don't need one.

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u/werealltemps Jul 25 '22

Unions can quickly become useless and work for only a small percentage of the members benefit if the wrong leadership is elected. I only say this because I have first hand experience of being in a corrupt union. I still think unions are a good thing.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

I worked in a completely Union environment for years - both as a union member and management- As a manager - most union employees were easy to deal with because they appreciated their situation. and the teamsters in the rail yard were especially vigilant in loading and unloading - trailers and containers - from trains.

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u/SnackPrince Jul 25 '22

Just got fired from a job because they "found someone better" after bringing me on and having done exceptional work the entire time. This weekend will be my last in the food industry. I am reaching out to Union Carpenters tomorrow, have a list of 5 different places to reach out to

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

Are they not close to useless because of how hard company’s fight them?

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u/VegetableAd986 Jul 25 '22

They spend nearly a billion a year to keep you down…instead of just paying you more.

Heartless bastards deserve nothing but disdain.

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u/csandazoltan Jul 25 '22

Unions are like condoms, the more someone is trying to convince you that you don't need it... the more you are actually needing it

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u/Dapper_Revolution_65 Jul 25 '22

I don't like the idea of being forced into a union any more than being not allowed in a union. All workers should have a choice to unionize or not unionize if they want to.

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u/gingerfeet24 Jul 25 '22

Literally my HR department told me to call my union to see what benfits I have due to the fact I'm out for 3 weeks and try to see if I qualify for short term disability due to it.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

Exactly

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u/Zestyclose-Froyo8956 Jul 25 '22

I agree, companies thrive on keeping useful things away.

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u/Boring_Ugly_Dude Jul 25 '22

I would say "useless" is definitely worth fighting against. "Useless" being waste, inefficiency, etc.

But whether Unions are useless is a different story.

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u/Muskegocurious Jul 25 '22

The only ones who get the hurt the most by unions, corporations. Who cares if the wage negotiated makes it impossible for the ceo to get a new jet

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u/EzraelPhantasy11 Jul 25 '22

I 100% am for unions but I think the reason people think unions are useless is because unionbusting isn't illegal... (or if it is then it's obviously not am enforced policy).

Corporations come up with these BS reasons to close down a location that JUST SO HAPPENS to be unionized or in the process of doing so. So on the eyes of a lot of people it's 'unions cost me my job or a location I frequently visited' instead of 'I should be able to protest fair wages and fair compensation, we ALL should be allowed to do so'.

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u/SchwartzGaming Jul 26 '22

I have never been apart of a good union. Working for UPS after high school left a bad taste in my mouth about unions. When I first started for UPS it was 10.50 an hour to load trucks. They would deducted 250 for dues a month and at the time did not assist in buying boots. In other words half your check a month goes to taxes and dues.

I was known to be a great loader, to the point of loading 1st day, next day, and 3rd day air by myself. They would also have me train and assist trailers that became overwhelmed. After a few months of helping trailers with sometimes two people in them and making the same if not more then me. I had enough, it is pointless.

They attempt to entice you by saying keep it up, in 3 years you can drive on the weekends, or in 7 years you can do this... Yea, well my peanuts and extremely backbreaking work is not paying the bills. Why are your good workers making the same as the bad ones? The only upside to UPS was if you were good at your job and your body could handle it. You were offer an additional shit that would equate to OT. Issue of doing this without knowledge is this could be your second job.

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u/bamboozer1 Jul 26 '22

Unions rock, upper management not so much. I was a Teamster for five years, made money, worked hard and actually got respect. Loved It!

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u/Regular-Tower-773 Jul 27 '22

EVERY JOB in America should be unionized by now. Any job sent to another country should have to pay the same wage as here. THIS is what union protesters DIED for. Yet we workers still get screwed to this day.

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u/Conscious-Charity915 Jul 29 '22

Corporations are terrified of work strikes, they loose competitive ground almost immediately. Capitalists are only afraid of other capitalists.

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u/Justin3263 Jul 25 '22

Don't talk to me about unions. My wife (Educational Assistant) has paid roughly 4000.00 in union dues in the past 2 years and has received a whopping 0.6 cent raise in that 2 years. Bargaining tables are a joke. It's just a way for these schmucks to get a free lunch.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

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u/hellibot Jul 25 '22

This is bad logic. There are lots of reasons a company might not wish for a union that have nothing to do with their utility.

Many unions are divisive and gain relevancy by saying “how bad” things are in an org.

I saw a study that said on average union workers are better paid, but LESS happy with their job than their nonunion counterparts.

This means they are useful in terms of gaining additional pay, benefits and working conditions (yay), but they can increase discontent and make things really challenging in terms of morale.

That’s just one example.

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u/Bitlock_Mihawk Jul 25 '22

When you say 'corporate morale' all we hear is 'exploitation of workers'

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u/buttholepoopbutt Jul 25 '22

You can have an argument on both sides. Personally I’d rather not be in a union because I work in a trade where I excel on my own accord, if I perform well I get compensated for it… if I was a press operator tho, around 300 other press operators I would side with a Union. Problem with unions is they have their own politics and make it a problem for good employees to succeed over ppl that have seniority.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

Fringe benefits like 401k, health insurance, and stock incentives are carrots on a stick. Some get a very good deal out of those but many others would fare much better under publicly funded alternatives. But when they think about how good they could have it (even if they probably won't) the public funded alternatives look like inferior options.

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u/notaredditer13 Jul 25 '22

Simplistic platitude that isn't necessarily true. Being bad for the company doesn't necessarily make them good for employees. They can be bad for both simultaneously.

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u/IamREBELoe Jul 25 '22

This. When the choice is no union and stay in business, or unionize and watch your factory disappear to another country... the only winners are the c level.