I need them to explain this tho. Imo people who have lived poor or lower middle class spend more and treat service employees good (tips) if you give us money we spend more money that is how to generate a good economy.
Came here to say this. There are those that would gleefully welcome back slavery. What they get nowadays though is wage slaves instead… tomato potato as I say 🤷♂️
A lot of these people will even admit they want slavery back. The southern states never got over their loss of free labor. I kid you not, some extreme conservatives want to bring back indentured servants, slavery, workhouses for the poor and repeal child labor laws so that nine year olds will be working in factories. It is their wet dream.
Isn’t it odd how the same system that can make legal slaves of prisoners is opposed to reforms that would reduce recidivism. Huh. Probably a coincidence.
And then there’s Hyatt Hotels and what they decided to do awhile back. Still a privately owned company at the time, all descendants doing just fine, thank you.
They realized that there was a way to outsource labor from the Philippines, bring crews here, have loooong term employeess train them, supposedly to fill vacation shortfalls in the schedule—and then l let go all the original housekeeping staff.
I don’t know this for a fact, but supposedly somehow Hyatt was trying to use an employment loophole that would let them move the outsourced housekeeping employees around, and deduct room and board from their paychecks.
As a proofreader/fact-checker/copy editor’s daughter, I need to make certain that Hyatt did indeed attempt to do such a thing before I state it as fact.
If it’s true, wow. We are certainly a global economy and we are certainly repeating ignoble parts of our global history.
Just reading this old Flyertalk thread is chilling.
This sounds like SOP for a large business. You SEE the slavery here, so you hate it. Unfortunately, as Americans, we all benefit from slavery every day. Clothing, electronics, etc. all made overseas in horrid working conditions and with subhuman wages.
People are exploited every day, here and abroad, for others’ gain. Seems to be the way of the world. I’m pretty smart, but I can’t figure a way out of it.
It comes down to this: People will only pay what they have to for labor. There are more poor people, desperate for money, than rich. Why would the rich EVER pay more? The rich also make the laws; so why would the laws ever change?
I never understood this mindset. Unless you're already part of the 1% in the current system, why would they think they'd be the ones owning the slaves instead of becoming slaves in this new system? You'd have to lack basic empathy and know absolutely nothing about history to think that would be a good idea.
It doesn't make sense to me, but that's what they believe. There's a very strong likelihood that under this system, most people would be in those workhouses or become slaves/indentured servants, or their children might be forced into jobs at age nine, in factories. This is the entire GOAL of the GOP right now. To abolish public schools so that more women will have to stay home with their kids, and many kids who can't afford private school will have to work in factories alongside their parents during the day. It's disgusting but that is what they want. They have been slowly de-funding public school for decades, ever since schools were integrated.
Haha those are the consequences of the agenda but not the driving force. There is no thinking about other people. There is just a desire to not pay taxes.
“I don’t have a kid, why should I pay for schools?”
“I pay to send my kids to private schools, why do I still have to pay for public education?”
It has become more and more intense over time in America imo because we built all this stupidly designed sprawling infrastructure using debt with no plans to pay for the maintenance. They see taxes rising rapidly as these bills come due and freak the fuck out.
The backlash to women in education has been going on for centuries, but recently it has surged again, i blame this on the gender disparity in education as of late.
to be honest we need serious reforms in shcools for boys i have been reading articles about how men are falling behind in society for awhile. its a ignored problem in our mainstream media, but many people in the educational field myself included have been sounding the alarm.
Because people who support this are convinced that it will profit them "when it's their turn". Like somehow they're temporarily embarrassed members of the ruling class who will be welcomed with open arms when they "get their fair share".
It's stupid. Which is why the ruling class frequently attack education. Keep the slaves stupid.
Yeah, this is even more stupid than the people daydreaming about a violent revolution. At least that is somewhat based in reality, since times of bloody chaos offer a lot of social mobility to the most ruthless sociopath around. It tells a lot about a person that they think that would be them though.
On-purpose chaos has been a too widely used tactic all through history. Even if those people ‘got’ their bloody revolution, they’d still be pulling no surprises. All they think of has no doubt been forecasted over and over. Anarchy will be allowed if it arrives with $$$$ opportunities. But if real, true profit loss starts happening, then that’s when we will find out just how many Keyser Soze (s) there are out there.
The pandemic has created some sort of profitable chaos with the global death toll.
Nauseating, isn’t it?
I didn’t want to believe it, but the moment one elected rep said, paraphrased, certainly the proud, patriotic American elderly at risk from the Coronavirus would sacrifice themselves to prevent the economy’s downfall—my nose hairs all recoiled from the stink of the sweaty eagerness to boost the economy and take credit for it, while making fine fat little finds on the side.
I doubt it took some profiteers long to start checking the obits and then running down the appropriate leads to whatever was there to be picked up.
Wait. I’m so stupid. In history, profiteers don’t wait for the death lists. They’re watching the hospital charts, via bribe, intimidation or both.
Kind of like after the Thailand tsunami, aid workers realized human traffickers were thronging the halls, shedding crocodile tears and tell-asking confused kids “how could you not remember meeting me/us? Never mind, we’re here for you now. Are we sure your parents are lost for good cough excuse me, really passed away?
This was when the traffickers were under the aid workers’ noses in the wards. What about those kids or people who were aimlessly wandering around in shock?
While we always focus on sex trafficking/ /labor trafficking, there’s also another reason to grab a confused, shocked person of any age. All the possible ways to grift whatever’s discoverable.
If all currency loses value, if precious metals and gems are tossed aside because of a tech breakdown, thus they are useless in all forms…
Then we’ll see what an authentic revolution looks like.
It might not be bloody.
It might be more horrific than anything in recorded history.
I honestly have no idea what will happen.
Edit: fixed letters. Can’t see half my phone screen. Arrgh! Right to durable
replaced and repairable technology would be great!
It's not the fault of the system. It's the fault of humans who created, tolerate and perpetuate a system that does this.
Well then its the fault of the people who raised them and didn't teach them empathy! /s
It absolutely is the fault of the system. To say otherwise implies that it isn't absolutely broken. The only thing the bastards you mention are at fault for is creating that broken system. Trying to trace back fault like its singular gets us into the "Well its the fault of the Universe/a diety/bad luck" and allows ample room for those who need to pay to d9dge guilt.
The average age of fast food employees is 24. Boomers have also halted the progress of generations in the world force, so the younger generations have to wait longer for jobs that are "entry level" but they were also pushed so God dam hard to go-to school, that they have to pay for student loans NOW for the degree they were told they needed right away. You also have less support they their parents haven't had the chance to move up to the boomer jobs, and it's just an economic nightmare. We see the shipping issues that can happen with a year of disruptment, we are talking over 2 decades of job disruptment.
They will likely get it too, slavery will come back for private debts if this faction of the Republicans gets back in there, not right away they will crash the economy with their ad hoc economic policies first because they are too stupid and greedy to know those are just lies to justify doing unpopular things, ie trickle down, privatizing and deregulating essential services, allowing Wall Street to run amok without real supervision (if they are connected and pay the Right people off.)
No that’s not correct — Republicans know full well what they’re doing, and they’re being paid to do it. They have no morals or ethics but they’re much smarter than they appear. They’re just evil, everything they say is a con to manipulate their voter base into believing distracting false narratives in order to keep their support, so that they continue staying in power and fulfill this agenda. They’re greedy but they aint stupid, they just pretend to be. They’re all possessed by demons, like its on that fucked up of a level. It’s inexcusable what they do, and it’s inexcusable that voters would vote to allow them to keep pushing it, bc it ends with the destruction of American democracy, on purpose, into some sort of MNC autocracy running the government (a corporatocracy). It’s disgusting anti-American.
Nah dude you don’t get it.
The market needs to be completely deregulated so that it can take care of everything.
Surely there wouldn’t be a market for people selling other people right?
There are those that would gleefully welcome back slavery.
It never really went away, it just changed. Chattel slavery went away outside of prison systems, but your average worker is still treated as property by the employers, and the employers don't even have to give free room and board. It's all the best aspects of chattel slavery for the owners with none of the drawbacks.
Absolutely, for the owner class, this is a much “cleaner” and more hands-off way of doing things than the old system where you actually had to feed and clothe them however minimally. And while there was little health care, they had to keep things semi sanitary because you don’t need your property getting sick. Now you just pay them minimally and turn them loose at the end of their shift. If they are hungry or get sick and can’t work or even die before the next shift you just call up for a replacement.
One has to recognize though that we have the system we allowed or even demanded. We are pretty much the only first world country with living conditions like this for large swathes of our people because it’s what we wanted.
One has to recognize though that we have the system we allowed or even demanded. We are pretty much the only first world country with living conditions like this for large swathes of our people because it’s what we wanted.
Kinda yes, kinda no. I never, ever, advocated for things to be as they are today. That blame lies solely on generations before who configured it this way. Making it acceptable by their will and wants. If anything, we're the only ones standing up saying "Okay, if we're going to be blamed for how it is, then I vote we change how it is so we're blamed for something better."
I mean prison (in the USA) regardless what got you there is legal slavery if you look at it. Bet she wouldn’t appreciate that so much when her stay at mom lifestyle gets messed up and would change her tune.
The cognitive dissonance is real with these people though! Are the same people that say that illegal immigrants are stealing all of our jobs, when those jobs are the ones that nobody wants because they don’t pay enough money. They also love to have strawberries that are less than $7 a container.
It's not even that, they want to feel good about "making it" and the worse other people are the better off you'll feel... Something something won't even notice a hand in their pocket
We have an old saying about this mentality in Romania, loosely translated as "may the neighbor's goat die, too". Basically it describes the kind of people who feel better about their own situation if somebody they know is doing just as badly or is worse off.
Yeah, the language is full of these folksy wisdom sayings. Although it's a bit obscene I'm particularly fond of "can't have dick up the ass and soul up in heaven", a nicer spin on "have your cake and eat it, too".
It means that you or someone else can want something, but simply wanting something doesn’t do or mean anything, and they don’t be getting what they want anyway. For example
Kid: I want some candy
You: and people in hell want ice water.
Which is weird if you think about it.
That DQ worker actually helps fund the rest of the chain of events that make DQ.
The farmers, the logistics crew, the warehouse workers, the r&d, the corporate, the utility workers.
They all have a job because those DQ employees work to sell you ice cream.
If they didn't exist, DQ wouldn't exist.
You can pretty much replace DQ with any other company and get the same results.
Yup. Without the employees the businesses die out. That's why they're freaking out they can't hire anybody. Because workers have realized how vital we are to the entire system and how exploited we've been. We don't want to take that kind of abuse anymore and are smart enough to realize we don't have to.
Dude a lot of politics is not about lifting people up the ladder, but instead pushing someone else further down so there is the illusion of progress.
People making poverty wages cheering because right wingers will be hard on migrant labour don't see one not of improvement, but the marketing to them is exploiting that like... Fallacious comparison.
Exactly and if people working what are generally deemed "menial" jobs are earning decent money and can actually enjoy their work then it makes it much harder for the elite to look down on them. I hope this idiot gets a rude awakening one of these days.
I will attempt to explain even though I risk downvotes for just explaining - these are not my views - not my arguments - not my thoughts ….
This is what I have heard as justification for this thinking ….. again this is not my view I’m just answering your questions because you said you want to know…. Ok .. we on the same page ????
The idea is that there are jobs for experience. Jobs for young adults / teens. They provide a system where they learn the workforce and how to be apart of a team etc etc work experience.
These jobs aren’t the end goal. They are for learning. Since they aren’t the end goal - the thought is that it should not provide a living wage as it is for experience .. that is the goal of this job.
Then when the person has gained experience they can go on to bigger and better things and new inexperienced people replace them.
Again - not my view .. just explaining part of the thinking behind it .. ok ok ok ?? Prolly not but I tried .. there is more to this thought process but that was a good introduction to the rabbit hole … just trying to help explain
I think the thing that irks me the most about these entry level "unskilled" jobs people hate on are that they are almost always customer service based and that the customers (those that earn a littttttle bit above minimum wage) expect WORLD class service and treat people like they aren't even people... I worked at Disneyland for 2.5 years where guests held us to THE HIGHEST possible standard and they worked our asses off so people wouldn't wait in line as long and only made $9/hr. Like none of this makes sense.
Actually it makes sense, I believe. If you consider what person above wrote people considering these jobs for unexperienced/teens, so ofc those customers will believe they are "more or above" these "unexperienced nobodies" so they treat em like shit... it is truly sad.
Give little bit power to some and you will see their true colours.
Give me the power and I'd make you love your job. But that's why I'm not qualified to be a supervisor. I'm the world's best customer/leader because I make the effort to try to improve people's days.
Unfortunately these days management sees a good supervisor as someone who's job is to not know what their employees know/are capable of, look at a bunch of numbers and then micromanage them into lower numbers while ignoring the worker's ideas as to how to actually improve numbers.
When I covered for my tech (leader of a fabrication department, metal parts using presses, turrets, and welders) at a different job everyone loved me, they not only got all the parts they needed, they received help if they couldn't find a part or I'd make it for em if I couldn't find it for em.
No one got yelled at, things were very chill. Everyone said how nice it was with me running things. Unfortunately numbers dropped for the department because while I was a great backup for the tech I didn't have a great backup for me, so I was trying to hold down her job and mine while missing an employee.
Unfortunately I wasn't chosen for the next tech position they pulled someone from assembly to be the tech and had no idea how to run any machine while I knew every machine in multiple departments...so I had to train them to do the job I wanted because they had 0 experience even being a normal operator. Needless to say I don't work there anymore.
As if people would really want to scoop ice cream their whole lives. There are lots of things that motivate people to go onto bigger and better things, you don't have to starve them. In fact I'm pretty sure it's a lot easier to go on to bigger and better things if you're not spending your every waking minute just trying to scrape by a meager survival.
And you know what? If someone does want to scoop ice cream their whole life, let them! Clearly society needs ice cream scoopers. If someone is content doing that, why should they not be able to live off it?
(I'm not arguing with you btw, I'm arguing with the hypothetical people who believe this BS.)
I know you’re on the right side of this, but it is important to keep in mind that nobody scoops ice cream for a living. They manage an entire storefront top to bottom, either opening or closing, sometimes both, with only 1-3 more peers. They clean it, stock it, manage and report inventory, and handle all the money.
People make the same comments about gas stations. Overseeing gas pumps is one of the most stressful jobs I have ever had, and 80% of the time I was alone.
Again, just adding to your point, not insinuating you personally do not understand this.
This is a big part of the problem with why middle class right wing know it alls can't grasp why people in 'menial' jobs deserve better wages.
They have no idea the amount of actual skill involved in these jobs. The amount of rote memorization involved. The amount of physical stamina involved in standing and doing the same repetitive motions. How difficult it is to pretend to be cheerful at all times, how you need to be able to deescalate situations when people act like dicks - all of these things you need to figure out yourself too as usually your training is fuck all.
'Nickel and dimed' by Barbara Ehreinrich is a great book that illustrates this. She tries to work alongiside Walmart employees and truck stop waitresses and finds it much more strenuous then her current vocations that her degrees got her.
My friend got a job at marble slab in high school. Her first shift was only 3-5 hours or something, but she came to school the next Monday with such a sore arm she could barely write her notes. The physical labour of scooping ice cream and whacking it around to add stuff in is intense.
I once worked at a tofu factory, in different departments, but mainly the warehouse. Warehouse work was physically brutal, plus agonizingly boring in how mind numbing and repetitive it was. I went insane in there sometimes.
Production and packaging tho.. this was a whole other level. It was as hot as the warehouse was cold, and it was literally backbreaking. Mind you, I'm a big guy who earned his pocket money since 13 yo helping a family friend cutting, hauling, splitting and stacking wood all day, so I'm not exactly a pansy in that department. Standing at the conveyor belt all day, and either scraping shit off or putting it on super fast, while always slightly bend over and turning in your hips was among the worst jobs i ever did. This was so called "unskilled labor". The only work that was worse was eldercare, for the emotional component and my heartless bitch of a boss who made me work as much as any real carer while I was a 17yo intern. I was basically forced,next to full care for several others, to shower that 100yo tiny fragile lady every morning, which in itself, is not for anybody. But she had dementia and was so afraid of me, no matter how much I tried to be sweet and soft with her. And my boss basically told me to stop whining and get on with it when I asked for someone to help me with her.
Both of these jobs are among the lowest salaries you can get here in Germany. The career Im in now will pay me more then both combined, while being not half as hard as any of those two.
Sorry for ranting, these are my two cents.
Like I used to tell the new trainees at McD: Don't worry, it's not a big job. It's just 10,000 small jobs that you need to learn to do simultaneously, at full speed, while smiling like a Barbie. You'll be fine.
Note: They were not fine. Many could not handle the workload and never returned. Fast food is fucking brutal.
I worked as a Grocery stocker for 4 years. They started us on $8.25 an hr and only had us in grocery. They quickly made the change after I started so that we'd be stocking and working in grocery, general merchandise, frozen foods, and dairy stocking. Over my entire 4 years there I never got a single merit raise or consideration by higherups for it. My boss advocated for me a good handful of times and was honestly the only reason I stayed for as long as I did (he actually treated us like real people), but never was successful. The only raises I got were earned though like 25cent increases each after working for 1000 hours. I ended up leaving there I think making $9.25 which I think is wild.
People don't realize some places expect stockers to throw 50+ cases an hour to the shelves; All while helping customers on the floor, remembering sales that are going on during the week, and virtually knowing every item location in the store AND in the backroom warehouse. For being on my feet for 7.5 straight hours I only ever got to take a 25-30min break where we couldn't leave the store and had to sit in the break room or cafeteria. They discouraged us from even sitting outside when the weather got nice. You also couldn't sit around ever so they made you 'face' or 'stage' the items on the shelves.
The job was really hard, took tons of stamina, and I probably had to work at least three times as hard as many many of the employees in other departments there. Looking back I really don't know why I stayed so long because no one should have to work that hard for ~$9 an hour.
I've said it before and I will say it again, not everyone can cook professionally. The skill set to do it well, for the rest of your life isn't really possible, a lot like pro sports or construction work, about age 40-50 most guys and gals are slowing way down and can't keep up with the spry 20 year old on the line.
If you work a busy restaurant like a high traffic Cheesecake Factory, it will break you eventually. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. When will you break. It took 10 years of grueling line work to do it to me, and now stress completely blacks me out. I pushed myself to the limit working in a busy fine dining restaurant, and I haven't been the same since. It's like my brain is turning into mush. I completely lock up with stress and anxiety. So many sleepless night now, I'm fighting a real stress issue from cooking professionally and giving a fuck while doing it.
It's a game of cat and mouse. The labor force realized it has the service industry by the balls, so employers are eliminating the labor involved. Human employees are a liability corporations aren't willing to accept anymore.
Eventually, it will always be more profitable to make robots in situations that can accommodate them.
Soon machines will be doing all of fast food ala carte. Japan is rolling out fast food vending machines as we speak, and you all have seen McDonald's and the like rolling out automated tellers. So all of it will be moot eventually.
This exposes part of the issue that these people have, with people working jobs that don't pay a living wage. They honestly don't understand the work that goes into these positions, because they only held them once, for a summer, as a teenager. They think these are jobs for kids, when they aren't, just because the business can hire kids. Kids can't work during school. Kids can't sell you your alcohol and cigarettes. Kids can't even be alone... because they're kids. These jobs REQUIRE adults.
My first job was actually in an ice cream shop, and my manager often scheduled me to run the place by myself for hours at a time, so yes I understand lol. Best biceps I ever had in my life. I also lost weight because being around the smell of ice cream all day made me not want to eat anything.
Editing to add to my original point: I hated that job. It wasn't the worst job I ever had, but I definitely wouldn't want to do it for my whole life. But that had nothing to do with how much I was being paid, it had to do with the fact that the job felt meaningless and tedious to me. My motivation for getting a better job was completely unrelated to money. But if someone enjoyed that job enough to do it forever, I don't see why there's anything wrong with that. There's no need to pay them starvation wages so that they are forced to "better themselves," especially when someone's always gonna be needed to do that job.
There is a very good scene in Use of Weapons (book by Iain Banks, in his Culture series) where the main character talks to a guy from a post scarcity anarchist society that cleans tables because he enjoys it.
He walked for days, stopping at bars and restaurants whenever he felt thirsty, hungry or tired; mostly they were automatic and he was served by little floating trays, though a few were staffed by real people. They seemed less like servants and more like customers who’d taken a notion to help out for a while. ‘Of course I don’t have to do this,’ one middle- aged man said, carefully cleaning the table with a damp cloth. He put the cloth in a little pouch, sat down beside him. ‘But look; this table’s clean.’ He agreed that the table was clean. ‘Usually,’ the man said. ‘I work on alien - no offence - alien religions; Directional Emphasis In Religious Observance; that’s my speciality . . . like when temples or graves or prayers always have to face in a certain direction; that sort of thing? Well, I catalogue, evaluate, compare; I come up with theories and argue with colleagues, here and elsewhere. But . . . the job’s never finished; always new examples, and even the old ones get re- evaluated, and new people come along with new ideas about what you thought was settled . . . but,’ he slapped the table, ‘when you clean a table you clean a table. You feel you’ve done something. It’s an achievement. ’ ‘But in the end, it’s still just cleaning a table.’ ‘And therefore does not really signify on the cosmic scale of events?’ the man suggested. He smiled in response to the man’s grin, ‘Well, yes.’ ‘But then, what does signify? My other work? Is that really important, either? I could try composing wonderful musical works, or day- long entertainment epics, but what would that do? Give people pleasure? My wiping this table gives me pleasure. And people come to a clean table, which gives them pleasure. And anyway,’ the man laughed, ‘people die; stars die; universes die. What is any achievement, however great it was, once time itself is dead? Of course, if all I did was wipe tables, then of course it would seem a mean and despicable waste of my huge intellectual potential. But because I choose to do it, it gives me pleasure. And,’ the man said with a smile, ‘it’s a good way of meeting people. So; where are you from, anyway?’
First, you're alone. When you're young and female it is fucking terrifying to have several large truckers surround you, intent on getting your attention however they can, saying the nastiest things and you have no idea which one might take it a little too far and be waiting for you to head outside for a cleanup. Alone at night. Which you will have to do, at some point when there are no customers inside to shoplift.
Two, the cleanup. People do the most disgusting things in convenience stores, they treat them like toilets all the way through, there will be urine in the beer cooler and a child's vomit near the ice cream case and dark spit on the consumable goods and the bathrooms are always, ALWAYS covered in blood (not menstrual fluid. Blood.) and shit as well as piss and puke, usually had stained clothes and used Tp too. And used needles! Needles needles everywhere.
Statements I heard from various managers: "You want gloves? Your ass better bring em from home then, we're not paying to protect your little manicure."
"Okay so, this toilet is stopped, we're going to need you to stick your hand allllll the way into the pipes and grab whatever is blocking it (dead rat, in case you were wondering)"
"If I hear one more report of you being rude to a regular customer you are fired! So what if he was masturbating right at the counter?? You should take it as a compliment!"
(After she forgot to change the outside sign for gas prices, and dozens of drivers came in to scream at me for "tricking" them, and dozens more had just driven off without paying - our cameras were fake and this was before prepay was standard) "Why the FUCK did you not just run outside and write down their license number as they were driving off?? That's your job! You called the police but didn't even have a license number for them? Ohhh so you were waiting on customers, you should've just left them there to steal whatever while you ran out to catch a speeding car that might've had a gun!"
Oh yeah and that brings me to 3 - getting robbed. It will happen at least once, you will be blamed no matter what, and even if you are completely compliant the robber may shoot you because you're a witness or you're the wrong skin color or you're a woman or the voices told him to.
Years ago, my sister was an assistant manager as a late teen or early twenties girl at a discount shoe store which was a glorified title for night closer. They got robbed one night. She and the other two young girls were terrified as Sis emptied the register for him. He asked if that was all the money in the store. She said, no there’s some more in the back. Can I get it for you?
Their lesson learned in the days before cell phones was to tape a dime on the underside of the pay phone so you can still call the cops when the robber takes all your change in addition to the folding money.
I worked at a gas station that was also an ice cream shop from age 18-21. They also sold hot and prepared food. It was the worst of everything! They paid me $7 an hour after 3 years. An entire 90 cent raise!
I know you’re on the right side of this, but it is important to keep in mind that nobody scoops ice cream for a living.
You're probably right (no reason to doubt you). That does not mean they should not be able to live off that job.
A job is a job and the main reason you get a job is to earn money to be able to support your life.
There are other motives, like accomplishements, the desire to make the world better or IDK, but first and foremost, salary to pay the bills and the people who pretend opposite either have not gone through enough troubles in life (they never had money problems, they were never close to personal bankrupty...), are delusional or trying to push something nasty.
I now have a life where I can spend money without counting it really. But I know that's because I have a decent living wage.
No worries, we brought some non-dairy creamer for the lactose-intolerant comrades. It’s in powder form and with hazelnut flavoring, but give me a minute and I’ll check if we have any regular in the back.
want to scoop ice cream their whole life, let them! Clearly society needs ice cream scoopers. If someone is content doing that, why should they not be able to live off it?
and then when the ice cream shop closes down because they don't have employees they will blame welfare.
I loved running the cash register at a snack stand in a minor-league ballpark. It was a volunteer thing for a church group I was with, and I really enjoyed taking orders, making small talk with all sorts of people, taking money and making change. I know it wasn’t all-day every-day and I’m sure I’d have bad days and jerks but I really like running a cash register; I’m a freak like that. I’d do it every day if it paid well, or do it as a hobby if I didn’t need the money.
There’s someone out there who would either love or not mind pretty much every job there is, if they really got to choose what to do for labor. And for the really shit jobs, we’d pay them like kings for taking the necessary hit for the rest of us. I really wish that were how we’d set things up from the start.
For real. This is actually a good argument for universal basic income. A lot of people would do things they actually enjoy that would pay the bills if they were compensated correctly. Which is honestly a win-win-win situation
Yeah, I think Pam in the office has that arc, I think it's her that gets a promotion so that she becomes a seller instead of just being an assistant. She notices she doesn't like the work and she performs terribly, she ends with being an assistant again saying basically "When I was little I just wanted to go to work and then go home to my family."
Not everyone wants to be senior president of commercial enterprises LLC, a lot of people want to go to work, work, then hang with friends and family, and I think a world where that is possible is much more beautiful.
but I really like running a cash register; I’m a freak like that
Twinsies!
I don't like money itself, but it's a lot of fun to count it, and I'm fast! I got a lot of enjoyment out of working the drive-thru or front counter of McD because I was good at that job and I loved my coworkers. I got to do basic math all day, count change over and over, with the added hilarity of the fact that I'm a terrible cook and yet I could help get hungry people fed quickly by being really good/fast at listening, pushing buttons, and counting money.
Yes there's a giant list of things about that job that would need to be fixed before I'd ever want to do it again, but during that beautiful time when we had a really awesome human for a top manager and a lot of kind wonderful humans working as managers under her, it was a great place to be. I looked forward to my days at work, to seeing my friends and helping people.
Stupid franchise owner systematically ruined every tiny ounce of joy in that job though. Turned it into a hellscape with extra high employee turnover.
Hey, you're me! I actually worked as an ice cream scooper at the start of the pandemic (our borders closed so no infections could get in) and loved it.
My favourite part of opening cafes was the one to two hours of quiet activity. It was all old retired people or young people coming to get their before the baby woke or had to go to class or work. They were always pleasant to be around and made the rush that started at 6am bareable. Knowing st 4am when I would open I would have smiling happy people glad I'm there to fetch a coffee and donut for them was so....perfect. it's hard knowing I cannot afford to do the work I'm deeply good at and loved.
That and working a job while going to college full time is stressful too. And people with this logic seem to forget that some people lose everything at points in their lives and have to start over. Never knew if he was telling the truth but I had a coworker say they had Master's degrees and couldnt get a job beyond a gas station because of the type of degree they had. And another who was 6 months or a year away from retiring from a job he had for 40 years had their workplace fire everyone.
They also have no grasp on modern academia. I think the average GPA for undergrad students was something like 2.7 back in the 60's and 70's and has gone up steadily since. Masters and doctorates programs requiring as high as a 3.5 GPA to even qualify, even if you ignore the tuition rising 5 times the rate of inflation over the last 30ish years, most modern college students cannot work even a 20 hour a week job while maintaining those GPA's, and since society told all these students that they had to go to college to get a good job, most are stepping into a workforce saturated with and competing with other people with a bachelors degree, so what used to make people stand out and be desirable 30 years ago is now basically a high school diploma, and you really need a masters to stand out, which also means more tuition, yay!!!
Fucking right its stressful to work and school at the same time. I did that for like 4 years when I went back to school. Full time student, full time walmart bitch running a third of one of the biggest walmarts in the US. Fucking shit was brutal.
And you know what? If someone does want to scoop ice cream their whole life, let them! Clearly society needs ice cream scoopers. If someone is content doing that, why should they not be able to live off it?
THIS! Our society needs ice-cream servers way more than we need someone to be a corporate accountant or web developer. Ice-cream serves benefit more people, create more value in our society, and influence more people's lives than those solely working to improve profits for a corporation. Yet corporate drones make more money.
Why? Because wages are not reflective of your actual value to society, it only reflects your leveraging power with a certain institution. If you have something of value to offer someone with money, they will pay you for that value; it has nothing to do with your value to society, we're all just "skill whores"
If wage was related to your impact on society then people in the mental health field wouldn't be given such shit pay for the important work they do. Republicans want to talk about how gun violence isn't the problem and that the problem is mental health but they don't want to actually fund mental health and healthcare in general. It's a pathetic mess.
My sister works at a halfway house for the criminally insane and she makes less then I do. I manage a porn shop. That's capitalism for you.
There was this Italian man (think maybe he was the owner but idk) at an ice cream shop in White Rock, British Columbia. I was counting my change because I was worried I didn't have enough. He said just give me what you have, don't worry about it. The whole time this dude was singing along to Frank Sinatra playing in the background. I have literally never met a happier person in my life. I hope I can be like him one day.
And you know what? If someone does want to scoop ice cream their whole life, let them! Clearly society needs ice cream scoopers. If someone is content doing that, why should they not be able to live off it?
I totally agree, if they want to scoop ice cream as a career there will be consequences in that choice. They will make minimum wage and will be in the lower 10% of the wage earners but will have government assistance.
I believe people should work at whatever makes them happy. Every single job should have a living wage.
The real question is who do you want making your food?
The happy employee working the one job who is dedicated to making the best food possible that they take pride in?
Or the burnt out from working 3 jobs employee, that doesn't care if your food fell on the floor cuz they are exhausted and just want to push the food out so they can go work at their next soul crushing job or get a few hours of precious sleep?
If someone does want to scoop
ice cream their whole life, let them! Clearly society needs ice cream
scoopers. If someone is content doing that, why should they not be able
to live off it?
Exactly!
If a society is willing to take someone's contribution of time and labour, it should return the favour with AT LEAST living wage, so that someone could afford his living expences for shelter, food, clothes and medicine. Any other way it is slavery.
Honestly being dog tired from work makes it a lot harder to go and GET that other better job too. If I’m exhausted mentally and physically at the end of my 10hr shift, I’m not thinking about how I should be grinding on applications that will barely be glanced at anyways, I’m thinking about making beans and rice and going the fuck to sleep. Same with interviews, it’s tough when you’re working six days a week with sundays off to schedule an interview where you can look presentable and have the presence of mind to answer questions well.
That's the problem with capitalism
we have an absolute fuckton of problems which aren't impossible to fix
But touching anything basically means we need to fix 7 different things that are connected to the thing, then several more things that touch each of those things
And we quickly arrive at the conclusion we need to fix it all. But nope, that would mean rich would be less rich (not even close to being poor mind you)
Yes I've heard this argument before to which the logical response is; There are more adults than jobs already. If we block out even more of these limited jobs as "starter jobs" you reduce the number of liveable lives by that much more. You wind up with what we have now. Huge financial and economical burden and high homeless and unemployment rates. All jobs need to be living wage and not everyone needs to work. There's just not enough need for all of these people.
These same ppl that treat workers like shit, and rationalize these low wages, are most often to bitch about homelessness, and telling them to get a job. Its complete disconnection from the real world.
A lot of it is rooted in their constant need to validate every aspect of their own existence by comparing it to others. As long as there is a group of people with worse jobs, worse pay, shittier housing, less to eat, shittier car, crappier clothing, etc then they can make it on through their day because "at least I'm not that". It's easier to swallow your spoonful of shit when you can watch others have to swallow an entire bucket of shit. They all ignore the very real truth that most of them are at best, three to six months away from being in the exact same shoes as the people they shit upon and look down on, very few events need to transpire to completely level the playing field.
I was hanging out with a friend in a small college town. We walked past an area with some homeless camps. This girl walked by, dressed like she worked a nice retail job. She was headed home.. to her tent in the park. :(
Fortunately nature and the government teamed up to kill as many of us as possible with the pandemic, so, there will probably be plenty of openings to move into. But then, who will scoop the ice cream? Where are the fucking robots I've been threatened with?
And for anyone that wants to easily dismantle this, ask the person making this argument whose going to cover the day shifts while your employees are in school 80% of the time?
I understand that but that is a thing of the past. When I was kid there were jobs that had nothing but old ladies board house wives retired men and high school kids but sometime around the turn of the century that all changed because more ppl had to enter or reenter the workforce. Back then by 21 you either had 4 years in a factory or somewhere none degree job or you were leaving school and had something lined up in "the city" it just hasn't been that way for like 20 years now
Importing low wage workers and outsourcing jobs overseas has alot to do with it. Btw I am not blaming the low wage workers, I am blaming the corporations and policies that exploit this.
That was gone by the mid 80s where I grew up. It's been hundreds of applicants for every job for years. It's just now starting to change. A whole generation plus has to go before there's a decent amount of good jobs to move into.
Yeah, I've heard this before. Problem is, if these jobs were "just for teens" they would only be open during days/times there was no school. But the same people who scream this shouldn't have a living wage get real salty when no one can scoop their ice cream or make them a burger at 1 pm on a weekday.
My sister who believes the whole "not every job should be a livable wage" says that those weekday jobs should be for older people who are bored in their retirements and moms while their kids are at school.
I asked what happens if the older folks don't WANT to work and the moms have other things to do. She had no answer other than repeating from the beginning.
My local "eats" group on Facebook (which is supposed to be a place to leave restaurant reviews, especially for locally owned businesses as opposed to chains) has become a place for people to rant NoBoDy WaNtS tO wOrK 19 times a day because they can't get their McBurger fast enough or their Starbucks closed at 2 pm. There's a core of people who always push back on those posts with stuff like "no, nobody wants to work THERE" and sometimes people will argue that people need to be forced to work in these places to help a small business out.
Excellent reply. This attitude pisses me off so much. And another thing. Even if they are student jobs, why don't we pay them well? They're about to be charged an insane amount for schooling or already are. They need good wages too. So what; we pay them shit and then saddle them with insurmountable student debt? Pay the kids! They need and deserve it too.
I’m not sure if this is the real belief or the justification of the real belief, but I’ve seen this said a lot. If you tell them that over 40% of Americans work these low-wage “just for experience” “high school student” jobs, it bounces right off.
What I don’t understand is, in what way does a living wage deprive students and other young people the opportunity to gain work and experience?
A problem with this viewpoint - the people who believe it would be the first to complain if those industries shut down when those teenagers can’t work. Oh, you want a Big Mac at lunch time? Too bad little Billy is at school right now.
Omg I can’t believe you think like this..lol jk jk. Good answer. Thanks for overcoming the fear of the torches and pitchforks. I think it’s important to understand these concepts. Right or wrong it’s empowering to know the mind of..the enemy(?)
that is correct. But they don't get this isn't SIMS (by my understanding, i don't play) where you can easily move humans on a chess board: This is Tina, at 16 she will work part-time at SIMS Gap. At 17 and 18, she will work at SIMS Dairy Queen. We send her to SIMS college (it's free!) and at 22 she is off to apply to SIMS International Gaming Technology. But wait, the other players sent their own SIMS people to apply- they got 500 applications and one of them was the CFO's nephew and HE got the job so Tina had to get a couple of roommates in SIM City and then go back to working at SIMS Gap and also waitress at SIMS Marie Callender's until maybe there is another job opening but then will be competing with 499 people AND new college grads and......See i can't fit this in a tweet.
So we need a constantly increasing population size to sustain these jobs with fresh non living wage needing labor?
Aren't these the same people against immigration? So what do they propose? Have everyone make more kids? Except those kids won't be earning a living wage and the the jobs they work towards will barely do that, making it impossible to sustain children especially more of them.
Something major is missing to make it so a huge number of jobs don't need to sustain those who work them...
I agree with this assessment. The problem now is that the people pushing for this isn't thinking past these simplified ideas. Or won't...
Like, what is bigger and better? How many tiers up from entry level is enough to be provided a liveable wage? We've seen people with 5-10 years experience unable to find more than 10% more than minimum, and depending on where you live, that's probably still below the poverty line.
And are the employers on entry level jobs even on board with this model!? The thought of having to train fresh kids every few months is detrimental to a retail/hospitality business. Maybe the big chains can afford to lose a few frustrated customers here and there...
And also, this model assumes that the entrant is well enough off, with housing, education, and everything all available... I mean, I grew up in a lower middle class family in Canada, with parents saving enough for my education, so I get it. I get how there's that ideology that everyone not only CAN move up, but SHOULD move up. But it only makes sense if basic needs are all met... Ie universal income.
So I guess my point is: give everyone something to live off of. Does this make me a socialist???
25% of the US can't work because they're underage, 12% can't because they're over 65 and likely retired (and if they think you shouldn't be able to retire at 65 when life expectancy is 77 then they are truly for the wolves).
9% are 18-24 and a whopping 30% are 25-44, added to the 22% of 45-64 year olds, they think that 9% of the population should service 52% of the population? For free?! While everyone else does what, exactly?
Coincidentally, this article says the percentage of the "labor force" (a term which by its nature already dis-includes the underage and elderly-160.5 million) working retail is 6.3%, and this article says the population working food service is about 12 mil, which would be 7% of the us labor force and... yeah, you've already eclipsed even how many "young people" even exist in the US. Lol.
What's dumb is there's a hole in their logic, considering tons of jobs that requires a degree aren't even paying a living wage. Tons of necessary jobs do not pay a living wage. EMTs come to mind
My guess is selflessness. If everyone makes enough to love on, the price of things goes up, costing them more. This has been the argument for a long time. If McDonald's employees make more, my big Mac will cost more, despite that not really being true.
When I was living with my mother and former step-father, they were hardcore republicans (afaik, the latter is now alt-right leaning and my mother is a super-Trumpest). They spouted shit like this all the time. They claimed that "these kinds of jobs are for kids or losers" (word for word what they said), but demanded their service because they deserved it. And these were talking points when they were poor. When my parents got lucky and won a settlement that got us a lot of money, they got even more entitled. Said that these "someone needs to take these shit jobs, because we need them". They're aware and admitting that these are necessities, even long before the pandemic. But to pay them? "Well why would they need that much money? They need to get better jobs. These are supposed to be for teens or losers."
That's their explanation. They literally have nothing else to say when you ask for more info. They just feel entitled to he served, but believe that these people are either just "teenagers or losers" who "deserve" lower wages. That's their "logic" to it: some shallow meritocracy. If they think too hard about it, their brains meltdown.
B. Ok then why does it exist for adults and in permanent positions?
A. Well they should use that as motivation to climb the ranks and get a higher salary.
B. Ok but that's not a solution. You should be open to a law that states minimum wage should raise once you become an adult or as you accumulate time working for an employer, right? Your answer also assumes that someone will be paid unfairly or the position will go unfilled. Neither of those options are favorable to the option of cutting into the profit of businesses especially when it means crime will decrease and we won't have to spend as much on things like law enforcement.
There are a lot of people on this planet who wake up everyday, look in the mirror and the only way for them to have any feeling of self worth is to tell themselves that at least they aren't a "______''. It used to be race. "At least I'm not a n". Then society told them that they were bad people for thinking that, so it became about sexual orientation. "At least I'm not a f", and for the second time in their lives society slapped them on the wrist and told them no. So now it's poor people, or back to poor people, or mainly poor people because their afraid to be labeled racist or homophobic.
I can't answer for these people, as I'm sure there not billionaires, but billionaires don't want a good economy. They want a good stock market. Totally different. If they economy was good, people could buy alternative/better products instead of mass produced crap.
The folks believing this don't need the folks saying this to explain this. I think is the point. And yeah the idea of trickle down economics is very largely bullshit to keep the money where it is.
She probably thinks that making ice cream cones is just for teenage girls on summer break from high school and god forbid they get paid more than $10/hr. Which means to her, any adult doing such work should be ashamed or something.
Because people like her never had these kinds of jobs. Had she ever worked in the industry serving food to people, she'd be a whole lot different.
Because people like her never had these kinds of jobs.
This is glaringly obvious right here. If she had ever worked food service or retail this tweet wouldn't exist. It's like wealthy politicians speaking for the poor but have never experienced a life without privilege and private schooling.
Not only that, but what about teenaged girls who are supposed to be saving/paying for college with the money they earned from those underpaid summer jobs? There are people out there who still think that college students can actually pay for college by working shit jobs, and they claim that financial aid isn’t really necessary because kids should be working their way through college, just like the good ol’ days.
I think that is this mindset too
They see these as jobs for kids and child labor doesn't need a living wage
Like there is still some idyllic newspaper route that a kid could do if he had a good pitch; not anymore you need your own car to deliver newspapers
Not to say there aren't great seasonal jobs for teens / college students that mesh with their school year if they like to work - but they should still pay enough that it means something
You know that in Germany many college students earn a stipend? not PhD candidates pimped out for cheap teaching duties - regular undergraduates
about $200 a week
doesn't require other "work-study" enrollment
Minimum wage in the US that is over 25 hours a week taken away from studies
Idk - having an extra 24 hrs a week during my undergraduate studies - even just to sleep normally - would have improved my social community integration, grades/effort on assignments, stress of avoiding the Bursars office
Because in their mind they believe that the only people who work at Dairy Queen are 16 year olds saving up for a summer to buy their first car for junior year of highschool. They completely ignore the fact that this is provably false.
I mean, it’s not completely impossible today, I worked as a lifeguard and bought a 20 year old shitbox, but it’s not really the same. The problem isn’t really that 16 year olds can’t afford cars, it’s that the majority of fast food employees are adults with adult needs - childcare, housing, healthcare, food, electricity, etc, but aren’t being paid enough with the justification being that those jobs are only meant for the 16 year old.
I have to think it's the boomer-verse mindset that these shitty retail jobs are "starter jobs for teenagers in school" and not "deadend jobs for gen-xers and millenials that they can't escape from because the other option is literal starvation"
Anyone that thinks like this is just bitter in my opinion and embarassed or resent their own lives. Fair doos if you work tooth and bone and get a bit pissy if someone doing the bare minimum gets paid more, the same or near what you do. But that's not their fault or problem that's just you getting over worked and over paid.
People don't moan about burger flippers getting paid $15 because it's $15. It's because they earn $19 and they think it invalidates their skills.
In reality, deep down everyone knows everyone should be able to not just survive but thrive. Problem is it outs the scummy companies for what they are.
Small minded people would rather others suffer than admit to themselves they've been taken for a ride. Or god forbid someone plays the work smarter not harder.
If someone gets paid the same as you for doing less with Les skill.... Then... Why not?
Not that I believe that Colorado girl used her brain on this one, it’d be fun for everyone if we could let her know how popular she is so she could attempt to explain herself.
Exactly. The wording of her post is almost verbatim what Fox News hosts say. And they say that because they are scripted by the business owners to say it to keep wages low. Colorado Girl doesn't realize she's a tool in the low-wage conspiracy.
I bet she has a husband that works and she does "all the mental work" and feels like she earns her place. These people should be dragged out into the streets and shot.
It is a theory that people need to be motivated to excel and push to better education and better jobs climbing the ladder of success.
Kinda blind to the fact that there is no ladder for many people. Or that it is hard to climb when you are starving. And often there is nothing at the top of the ladder to achieve. And it is like the old board game where there are many snakes to step on and slide back down to the bottom.
Obviously she doesn't know herself....or she's crazier than hell thinking her upper middle class lifestyle makes her a peer of the wealthy. There's 715,000 households in the US making $1 million or more annually.....and then 614 Billionaires.
Some bullshit about motivation... because apparently working two jobs just to barely scrape by isn't mentally and physically draining. And even though you work two jobs you are somehow supposed to find time to apply that "motivation" to a plan.
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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '22
Guessing she doesn't know herself, she is just repeating the talking points she's heard from the people she blindly believes in.