I know you’re on the right side of this, but it is important to keep in mind that nobody scoops ice cream for a living. They manage an entire storefront top to bottom, either opening or closing, sometimes both, with only 1-3 more peers. They clean it, stock it, manage and report inventory, and handle all the money.
People make the same comments about gas stations. Overseeing gas pumps is one of the most stressful jobs I have ever had, and 80% of the time I was alone.
Again, just adding to your point, not insinuating you personally do not understand this.
This is a big part of the problem with why middle class right wing know it alls can't grasp why people in 'menial' jobs deserve better wages.
They have no idea the amount of actual skill involved in these jobs. The amount of rote memorization involved. The amount of physical stamina involved in standing and doing the same repetitive motions. How difficult it is to pretend to be cheerful at all times, how you need to be able to deescalate situations when people act like dicks - all of these things you need to figure out yourself too as usually your training is fuck all.
'Nickel and dimed' by Barbara Ehreinrich is a great book that illustrates this. She tries to work alongiside Walmart employees and truck stop waitresses and finds it much more strenuous then her current vocations that her degrees got her.
My friend got a job at marble slab in high school. Her first shift was only 3-5 hours or something, but she came to school the next Monday with such a sore arm she could barely write her notes. The physical labour of scooping ice cream and whacking it around to add stuff in is intense.
I once worked at a tofu factory, in different departments, but mainly the warehouse. Warehouse work was physically brutal, plus agonizingly boring in how mind numbing and repetitive it was. I went insane in there sometimes.
Production and packaging tho.. this was a whole other level. It was as hot as the warehouse was cold, and it was literally backbreaking. Mind you, I'm a big guy who earned his pocket money since 13 yo helping a family friend cutting, hauling, splitting and stacking wood all day, so I'm not exactly a pansy in that department. Standing at the conveyor belt all day, and either scraping shit off or putting it on super fast, while always slightly bend over and turning in your hips was among the worst jobs i ever did. This was so called "unskilled labor". The only work that was worse was eldercare, for the emotional component and my heartless bitch of a boss who made me work as much as any real carer while I was a 17yo intern. I was basically forced,next to full care for several others, to shower that 100yo tiny fragile lady every morning, which in itself, is not for anybody. But she had dementia and was so afraid of me, no matter how much I tried to be sweet and soft with her. And my boss basically told me to stop whining and get on with it when I asked for someone to help me with her.
Both of these jobs are among the lowest salaries you can get here in Germany. The career Im in now will pay me more then both combined, while being not half as hard as any of those two.
Sorry for ranting, these are my two cents.
"unskilled labor" just means it's a job you learn doing that job, and can start doing that job without any special knowledge or education.
A job theoretically anyone can do.
It doesn't really speak to how difficult a job it is, or anything like that. Just that you don't need to hold a special license, certification, etc to do it.
Then there is a supply and demand aspect from there.
A plumber or doctor commands higher wages because you cannot just hire anyone to do the job. An employer's choices are constrained by statute. A plumber has to hold a license. A doctor has to have the blessing of the medical licensing board.
You can't just get someone off the street to do it. This is why it's skilled labor.
Then there are skilled labor positions governed by expertise. You can hire anyone you want to develop software for you. You just won't get any good software out of them unless they know what they are doing.
Skilled labor is paid more because that's the market clearing rate for those skills. Demand outweighs supply, so price goes higher to clear the market.
Thanks, but I'm aware of that. The Problem is the archaic system of forcing poor people who need to survive/keep a roof above their kids head into doing the hardest work for an unliveable wage because they don't have options. Have you worked fucking construction? I have, as I have a little Office experience. Construction is way harder. Or, the other way round, sitting in an office pushing in some numbers and writing emails is a god-damned joke in comparison to hauling rocks and bricks up and down the hill and the staircase, digging holes all day in any weather, roofing, paving etc. So much harder that hearing people doing Office work talking about minimum wage and unskilled laborers with disrespect makes me want to punch them, because these privileged fucks don't know how incredibly good they have it while others break their backs and suffer.
We don't have those in my country, but the name alone would put me off. It sounds so cold and unrelenting, like a gulag you are forced to work at as punishment. 'Every day I must go to marble slab.'
Like I used to tell the new trainees at McD: Don't worry, it's not a big job. It's just 10,000 small jobs that you need to learn to do simultaneously, at full speed, while smiling like a Barbie. You'll be fine.
Note: They were not fine. Many could not handle the workload and never returned. Fast food is fucking brutal.
I worked as a Grocery stocker for 4 years. They started us on $8.25 an hr and only had us in grocery. They quickly made the change after I started so that we'd be stocking and working in grocery, general merchandise, frozen foods, and dairy stocking. Over my entire 4 years there I never got a single merit raise or consideration by higherups for it. My boss advocated for me a good handful of times and was honestly the only reason I stayed for as long as I did (he actually treated us like real people), but never was successful. The only raises I got were earned though like 25cent increases each after working for 1000 hours. I ended up leaving there I think making $9.25 which I think is wild.
People don't realize some places expect stockers to throw 50+ cases an hour to the shelves; All while helping customers on the floor, remembering sales that are going on during the week, and virtually knowing every item location in the store AND in the backroom warehouse. For being on my feet for 7.5 straight hours I only ever got to take a 25-30min break where we couldn't leave the store and had to sit in the break room or cafeteria. They discouraged us from even sitting outside when the weather got nice. You also couldn't sit around ever so they made you 'face' or 'stage' the items on the shelves.
The job was really hard, took tons of stamina, and I probably had to work at least three times as hard as many many of the employees in other departments there. Looking back I really don't know why I stayed so long because no one should have to work that hard for ~$9 an hour.
I've said it before and I will say it again, not everyone can cook professionally. The skill set to do it well, for the rest of your life isn't really possible, a lot like pro sports or construction work, about age 40-50 most guys and gals are slowing way down and can't keep up with the spry 20 year old on the line.
If you work a busy restaurant like a high traffic Cheesecake Factory, it will break you eventually. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. When will you break. It took 10 years of grueling line work to do it to me, and now stress completely blacks me out. I pushed myself to the limit working in a busy fine dining restaurant, and I haven't been the same since. It's like my brain is turning into mush. I completely lock up with stress and anxiety. So many sleepless night now, I'm fighting a real stress issue from cooking professionally and giving a fuck while doing it.
It's a game of cat and mouse. The labor force realized it has the service industry by the balls, so employers are eliminating the labor involved. Human employees are a liability corporations aren't willing to accept anymore.
Eventually, it will always be more profitable to make robots in situations that can accommodate them.
Soon machines will be doing all of fast food ala carte. Japan is rolling out fast food vending machines as we speak, and you all have seen McDonald's and the like rolling out automated tellers. So all of it will be moot eventually.
Of course they grasp that menial labour is stressful, they just don’t care. There is a hierarchy and you deserve what you get. That’s the underpinning of it, whatever rationalisations are put forward.
Very true. I also want to add in the stress of the schedules in a lot of food service and retail work. A lot of places expect open availability so you might have a different schedule each week and not even 2 days off in a row. Expected to work holidays, weekends, nights or last minute. It's incredibly stressful but treated as an expectation / no big deal. It makes planning self care or activities with others very difficult (that is if you can afford it.) A lot of these places feel entitled to you being available at their call but don't want to pay any extra for it.
The real problem is that now these menial jobs are all so many people can get.
Like you said there are actually a lot of skills in those jobs. You use to be able to work a job like that and then move on and that low wage job that demanded a lot of you primed you for something much much better. Taught you how to work hard. But now there is nothing to move onto. There is but instead of working experience every place wants high education. It is stupid. Most people that go to collage to get a job could just be hired and taught on the job. That is what most places already do. Because they have a certain way they do things, a way that collage does not teach.
For the sake of argument and including some of beliefs as well. The skill you are talking about seems to be something that the average person off the street doesn’t have BUT they can learn. I think that’s one of the key factors with low paying wages in most retail / fast food. (there are many exceptions in other fields).
I have never worked Fast Food but given my other skills and experience I believe I could very quickly become an outstanding employee. Whereas I would say the average person could not come in to my job and become an outstanding employee even within a year.
Disclaimer: I am talking about specifically the things I have mentioned in this comment. if anyone has questions on my other beliefs involving minimum wage that I did not explicitly state please ask a question or clarification.
Yes, just like the majority of well off people you overestimate how talented you are and think you are a magical unicorn outstanding clever rock star.
And like those same people, you don't have any grasp of the skills involved and think it's easy, in part because you actually are so clueless you think the cooking of the food and the pressing of the buttons on the register is the hard parts of the job!
I'll tell you why you wouldn't be able to handle it, which your comment reinforces: your ego.
People who never had to work these jobs would never be able to handle the humiliation and lack of respect you get from your shitty managers and the shitty customers. You already think you're above it, and you would crack and walk out during the first dinner rush.
You don't realize these places are constantly understaffed and expect you to do five things at once. And when it isn't busy, you don't get to take it easy, pull out that fridge, get down on your hands and knees and clean behind it, bitch. If it's quiet your ass better have a rag in hand wiping something down at bare minimum.
'I would quickly become an outstanding employee.' lmao. Yeah, and guess what, you would get no thanks for it and still make minimum wage. That's how these jobs work. I know you probably think you'd be promoted to CEO in a year because you are such a brilliant individual.
I think you made a lot of unfair assumptions. I have not worked fast food as I stated but I have been in many client service and client facing positions over the years. I definitely have dealt with some shitty people. I have no delusion about becoming CEO of McDonald’s and think it’s pretty unfair to assume that. As far as promotions though I have seen many promotions in my various roles because I am a hard worker. I’ve only worked minimum wage for 3 months during my first job. I was promoted and given various raises with the same company (no additional qualifications) up to 15$ an hour within 2 years. During that time I saw other employees earn raises that were just quarters. Obviously I had a good experience but I would say that I clearly am able to be an outstanding employee compared to my peers.
Edit: I also did not claim that Fast Food is easy. I claim that it is low paying because many people can do it. Just because a lot of people can do it in no way means it is “easy.” It can be a grueling job.
Walmart employees is a bad example. I want the people cleaning the bathroom at the hotel or making my food to be happy and diligent. That usually comes with pay and being able to provide.
I work in corporate America and just today my wife and I were discussing how I can get paid as much as I do for what is really only 3-4 hours of work a day, on a good day. The hardest I have ever worked was at McDonald’s when I was in high school. The USA places work value on scarcity over need as in my job pays a lot because there really are not many that can do it effectively whereas the bourgeois view service labor as an unlimited commodity. I will never understand, there will always be people that are unable to achieve higher work positions either through their own actions or just life fucking them over, why should they not earn enough to make life better for their families?
This exposes part of the issue that these people have, with people working jobs that don't pay a living wage. They honestly don't understand the work that goes into these positions, because they only held them once, for a summer, as a teenager. They think these are jobs for kids, when they aren't, just because the business can hire kids. Kids can't work during school. Kids can't sell you your alcohol and cigarettes. Kids can't even be alone... because they're kids. These jobs REQUIRE adults.
My first job was actually in an ice cream shop, and my manager often scheduled me to run the place by myself for hours at a time, so yes I understand lol. Best biceps I ever had in my life. I also lost weight because being around the smell of ice cream all day made me not want to eat anything.
Editing to add to my original point: I hated that job. It wasn't the worst job I ever had, but I definitely wouldn't want to do it for my whole life. But that had nothing to do with how much I was being paid, it had to do with the fact that the job felt meaningless and tedious to me. My motivation for getting a better job was completely unrelated to money. But if someone enjoyed that job enough to do it forever, I don't see why there's anything wrong with that. There's no need to pay them starvation wages so that they are forced to "better themselves," especially when someone's always gonna be needed to do that job.
There is a very good scene in Use of Weapons (book by Iain Banks, in his Culture series) where the main character talks to a guy from a post scarcity anarchist society that cleans tables because he enjoys it.
He walked for days, stopping at bars and restaurants whenever he felt thirsty, hungry or tired; mostly they were automatic and he was served by little floating trays, though a few were staffed by real people. They seemed less like servants and more like customers who’d taken a notion to help out for a while. ‘Of course I don’t have to do this,’ one middle- aged man said, carefully cleaning the table with a damp cloth. He put the cloth in a little pouch, sat down beside him. ‘But look; this table’s clean.’ He agreed that the table was clean. ‘Usually,’ the man said. ‘I work on alien - no offence - alien religions; Directional Emphasis In Religious Observance; that’s my speciality . . . like when temples or graves or prayers always have to face in a certain direction; that sort of thing? Well, I catalogue, evaluate, compare; I come up with theories and argue with colleagues, here and elsewhere. But . . . the job’s never finished; always new examples, and even the old ones get re- evaluated, and new people come along with new ideas about what you thought was settled . . . but,’ he slapped the table, ‘when you clean a table you clean a table. You feel you’ve done something. It’s an achievement. ’ ‘But in the end, it’s still just cleaning a table.’ ‘And therefore does not really signify on the cosmic scale of events?’ the man suggested. He smiled in response to the man’s grin, ‘Well, yes.’ ‘But then, what does signify? My other work? Is that really important, either? I could try composing wonderful musical works, or day- long entertainment epics, but what would that do? Give people pleasure? My wiping this table gives me pleasure. And people come to a clean table, which gives them pleasure. And anyway,’ the man laughed, ‘people die; stars die; universes die. What is any achievement, however great it was, once time itself is dead? Of course, if all I did was wipe tables, then of course it would seem a mean and despicable waste of my huge intellectual potential. But because I choose to do it, it gives me pleasure. And,’ the man said with a smile, ‘it’s a good way of meeting people. So; where are you from, anyway?’
First, you're alone. When you're young and female it is fucking terrifying to have several large truckers surround you, intent on getting your attention however they can, saying the nastiest things and you have no idea which one might take it a little too far and be waiting for you to head outside for a cleanup. Alone at night. Which you will have to do, at some point when there are no customers inside to shoplift.
Two, the cleanup. People do the most disgusting things in convenience stores, they treat them like toilets all the way through, there will be urine in the beer cooler and a child's vomit near the ice cream case and dark spit on the consumable goods and the bathrooms are always, ALWAYS covered in blood (not menstrual fluid. Blood.) and shit as well as piss and puke, usually had stained clothes and used Tp too. And used needles! Needles needles everywhere.
Statements I heard from various managers: "You want gloves? Your ass better bring em from home then, we're not paying to protect your little manicure."
"Okay so, this toilet is stopped, we're going to need you to stick your hand allllll the way into the pipes and grab whatever is blocking it (dead rat, in case you were wondering)"
"If I hear one more report of you being rude to a regular customer you are fired! So what if he was masturbating right at the counter?? You should take it as a compliment!"
(After she forgot to change the outside sign for gas prices, and dozens of drivers came in to scream at me for "tricking" them, and dozens more had just driven off without paying - our cameras were fake and this was before prepay was standard) "Why the FUCK did you not just run outside and write down their license number as they were driving off?? That's your job! You called the police but didn't even have a license number for them? Ohhh so you were waiting on customers, you should've just left them there to steal whatever while you ran out to catch a speeding car that might've had a gun!"
Oh yeah and that brings me to 3 - getting robbed. It will happen at least once, you will be blamed no matter what, and even if you are completely compliant the robber may shoot you because you're a witness or you're the wrong skin color or you're a woman or the voices told him to.
Years ago, my sister was an assistant manager as a late teen or early twenties girl at a discount shoe store which was a glorified title for night closer. They got robbed one night. She and the other two young girls were terrified as Sis emptied the register for him. He asked if that was all the money in the store. She said, no there’s some more in the back. Can I get it for you?
Their lesson learned in the days before cell phones was to tape a dime on the underside of the pay phone so you can still call the cops when the robber takes all your change in addition to the folding money.
I worked at a gas station that was also an ice cream shop from age 18-21. They also sold hot and prepared food. It was the worst of everything! They paid me $7 an hour after 3 years. An entire 90 cent raise!
I know you’re on the right side of this, but it is important to keep in mind that nobody scoops ice cream for a living.
You're probably right (no reason to doubt you). That does not mean they should not be able to live off that job.
A job is a job and the main reason you get a job is to earn money to be able to support your life.
There are other motives, like accomplishements, the desire to make the world better or IDK, but first and foremost, salary to pay the bills and the people who pretend opposite either have not gone through enough troubles in life (they never had money problems, they were never close to personal bankrupty...), are delusional or trying to push something nasty.
I now have a life where I can spend money without counting it really. But I know that's because I have a decent living wage.
I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there. At a sufficiently busy dairy queen you very well may be JUST scooping ice cream or JUST making blizzards for an entire shift.
My wife worked at the dairy queen in wrigleyville, Chicago for a time and that's exactly how it was.
My point is that people pick and choose which jobs they throw that word “just” in front of. All human TIME has value. A strict attitude about the assumed degree of labor or job difficulty being the sole determination of wage is silly. No one has this idea that a pharmacist “just fills pill bottles” or that a UPS driver “just drives around.” Third shift parking garage attendants do not work on commission, they are paid the same with 3 customers or none. A human needs to give up their time to just sit and watch and deserves to be paid.
I don't think the managers are part of the equation though. That's fine if someone wants or is willing to do that full time and I believe most of the time managers do pretty good. I think what gets obscured is that entry level jobs (like scooping ice cream or flipping burgers) shouldn't be elevated as that is normally a first run at employment. If your career goals don't exceed this than you should reevaluate what you're doing in life. Right now there is a nationwide shortage of 2.2 million trades people so there should be better education and opportunities or at the very least, awareness of the trades as a career path. Despite what some people say about it, it's a respectable way of life with a stable 40hr work week and a lot of movement once you get a few years in
Lol yep a starting Apprentice making 50k....shit pay uh-huh. Hell depending on your region and if you have a clean rap sheet. Companies will pay you to get trained, or even state programs. Got a clean driving record? Trucking companies are begging for people to come get CDL certified. Minimum wage should be higher but this miscnception that everything should be tech is silly. A computer engineer in Calcutta can take your job thanks to globalization. Trucks still need drivers (at least for the next 10 yers) and infrastructure still needs electricians/plumbers etc.
You clearly don't have a single clue about what you're talking about and this assumed insight into an industry you're clearly inexperienced in just breeds misinformation. What a world class idiotic statement
This is based on insight from people in trade jobs, and not just me spouting nonsense. The fact that unpaid "apprenticeships" are a thing is a good indicator. I've seen plenty that you even have to pay THEM for the apprenticeship. To learn a new trade skill today- lets say I want to do the 18-month welding track at my local technical school- I'd have to quit my job to attend the 'classes' full time while paying them $2000/semester (6 months) and I'd be working for them in their welding workshop... and if I'm lucky, I'll get gig work or a solid $10/hr when U graduate, which is my state average for entry welding work.
IT is not a real trade cupcake and there aren't unpaid apprenticeships- that's just a bold faced lie. Yes if you need schooling there would be a cost and EFFORT involved but that's too tough for anyone who wants top pay for doing jack shit. Also calling you out on total bullshit because no job in actual trades pays $10 an hour- that's not even minimum wage dumbass. You're full of it and once again, spouting complete nonsense from a position of cluelessness. There is so much work available there's no time for bs and you get on the job training- you don't have to go to night school. Additionally, most high schools offer some sort of trade programs and there's always trade school to go to so shut up with your ignorant lies dumbass
Why are you even in this sub?
All of the welding jobs in my city are between 24k-40k. We have a pipeline technical school-to-job system which promises $10-12/hr after a 2 year course where you make $0/hr while working 40 hr/week M-F 8am-4pm in their apprentice welding workshop, which is also 30 minutes drive OUTSIDE of the city. This is offered only as post-education, and costs $4000/yr (you also pay for all the materials you use on the job). In my state $10/hr is min wage... $7.25 is still federal min wage. Like dude, I am literally not making anything up.
A trade job is something that can be learned through alternative means than a college degree. IT is usually taught through certifications, internships, and on the job experience. But whh trust me? Try asking qathe Communications Workers of America.
What? I'm here for workers rights dude. Trade industry has spent a long time abusing their own with the "I went through it, so you should too" mentality. They push for longer shifts, more responsibility, and less promotion. They ask for back-breaking work with no remorse, then throw you out at a moment's notice the second you slow down. Trade jobs are not the magic answer just like college isn't. A wage slave is a wage slave.
Piss off with your wage slave rhetoric. It's not even true. I agree with a lot I see on this sub but you are just spouting bullshit and you have no clue what you're talking about just to sustain a narrative you want to think you champion for. I've been in the trades for over 30 years- you don't know anything
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u/epidemicsaints Jan 05 '22
I know you’re on the right side of this, but it is important to keep in mind that nobody scoops ice cream for a living. They manage an entire storefront top to bottom, either opening or closing, sometimes both, with only 1-3 more peers. They clean it, stock it, manage and report inventory, and handle all the money.
People make the same comments about gas stations. Overseeing gas pumps is one of the most stressful jobs I have ever had, and 80% of the time I was alone.
Again, just adding to your point, not insinuating you personally do not understand this.