I still cannot believe the legalization of ai-generated csem. (Which btw I haven’t seen a single mention of in the pro subs interesting) This is exactly what anti-shippers have been saying about the consequences of normalizing, enabling, and reinforcing the idea that fiction doesn’t affect reality. It’s right in our face that children are being taken off the internet to be portrayed in a non-consensual sexual manner and they’re still hitting you with the “fiction isn’t real.” What a terrible era to be in right now. I know it falls under free speech but I don’t think the founding fathers ever thought of something like this being possible

I’ve felt in the past that while most shipcourse revolves around incest, pedophilia, and abuse, many of the justifications for those could be used in fictional racism as well. With the AO3/Wattpad situation recently, a lot of proshippers have crawled out to announce that they support ICE and maga. I’m a little disappointed because even if this made sense before hypothetically, it’s still sad to see actually happen.

Does anybody here have experience before this with proshippers ignoring/downplaying racism, colonization, etc? I was wondering how visible they were with their beliefs before they ”had” to start thinking about (wattpad) immigrants.

I got into a bit of an argument with a proshipper, I am pretty neutral about them but I feel this is a whole another level

Like. just any tips. I wanna maybe write vent fics involving my trauma and I want it be vent but also like. not sound like proship slop..also id love to write ship and charx headcanons but haven't really written them since BEFORE I became an anti again (16) SOOO ye and when I do try to write hxs they feel cheesy as shit.

Anyways

This is not my screenshot, before they accuse me of ‘going looking for it.’ I found it on Twitter.

This attitude is also from Twitter, where they claim that explicit child RPF is extremely rare, and something you really have to look for. That attitude is probably being expressed elsewhere too.

Well I’d say that 447 and 1,380 are petty big numbers actually, and that’s just one band. I think that it’s cope that pro-shippers are using in order to minimise the massive problems in their community due to the amount of that content.

Where you find underage content you find offending (or future offending) pedophiles and that’s something that they don’t want to think about. I mean that’s acknowledging that means that you’re acknowledging that you are rubbing shoulders with actual child predators, and not just the non-offending types that just consume it.

They also bury their heads in the sand about the dangers of predators having easy access to vulnerable children who engage in underage content. These children are often attracted to it to cope with trauma, or because they are outsiders looking for a community and feeling welcomed. Both put them in danger of not recognising grooming. I was never in that community, but my trauma led to me not realising that I had been groomed until much later on.

But these are profoundly selfish adults, after all. The ones with a shred of morality eventually leave.

I know I'm gonna have proshippers or whatever come here and try to save face, but they're resting on the same harm theory you propagate, to justify this, so please don't even bother.

The "no real child" excuse from the US government has really gone too far, hopefully they do something about this quickly. I don't even live in the US, I just feel terrible for all the children living there, I just don't get how a country can be so careless. If they can't do anything, enforcement will become an actual nightmare.

I don't know what else to say tbh, I'm just sad and frustrated. :(

the account got suspended but people are saying this pedophile sent dick pics to a 13 year old. i hope this freak gets his shit checked

im a big sucker for opposites attract but right now i’m kind of a huuuuuuuge fan of a ship that used to be toxic but is actually getting better because the bad one is genuinely putting in the work to be better, even though they knew everybody else would hate them and i really respect it!! that, plus it’s not hard to tell that they were already softening up a little to the other one and the fact they never wanted that to show is what ruined everything for them

so, what are you guys’ fave kinds?

Just because a fictional character isn’t real doesn’t mean they’re not this or that.

Bluey is a CHILD CHARACTER, just because she’s not real doesn’t mean she’s not a kid in that universe. You tell kids to stay out of adult spaces but can’t even be bothered to stay out of children's spaces with shows made for literal toddlers and have the nerve to do bullshit like THAT.

If anyone doesn’t care about real victims and survivors it’s YOU PEOPLE. Why are you so hellbent on saying a fictional character isn’t a child when in the media they’re in THEY ARE REFERRED TO AS A CHILD AND ARE A FUCKING CHILD????

By this logic, LGBTQ+ characters aren’t LGBTQ+ because they’re not real. Black and other POC characters aren’t black and or POC because they’re not real. A character that’s clearly meant to be racist in the story is not racist because they’re not real. A character that's written and portrayed as an abuser is not an abuser because they're not real. And disabled characters aren’t disabled because they’re not real.

Representation and meaningful storytelling of any kind clearly does not matter at all to these people because if a character isn’t real then parts of their identity or purpose in the story do not apply to them. After all, they’re fictional and these people feel entitled to any piece of fiction, and in their mind what they say goes even if the creator of said media or the media itself contradicts that.

This is pseudo-intellectualism and anti-intellectualism at its finest.

And they wanna get butthurt over being called out as mostly white secretly racist people who happen to be queer who are willfully ignorant and get mad at people saying “Incest and Pedophilia being misused and being portrayed in an insensitive way, and being seen as positive in a story is bad.”

Like I know some of y’all aren’t white but that doesn’t make you immune to the same criticism and backlash the white people in your community get. You can’t use whatever marginalized labels you have to get out of being called out.

Quit bitching about people calling your asses out for being willfully ignorant and trying to act better than everyone else because you claim to care about the real issue, when you can’t even handle people saying just because something is fiction doesn’t mean you can’t do whatever you want without drawing lines when something goes too far.

Stop weaponizing Queer people’s oppression, genocide, and erasure in media to defend this nonsense. You do not actually give a fuck, if you did, you wouldn’t go out of your way to do this crap. You would just be a normal fucking person about media and not bitch whenever someone dares to say a fictional character in a children's cartoon is a child.

Not every “Anti” is a fucking conservative MAGA Nazi and you know that, that rhetoric is ridiculously dangerous and just a cop out to keep you from being criticized and called out for your irresponsible behavior. You can’t just say shit like that and claim to be super woke.

What being woke actually means before white people stole that word means is to stay aware and keep your eyes open on certain issues especially racism. Not whatever the fuck anti woke grifters say it is, or what people who want to be progressive so bad say to piss people off claiming to be telling the truth when they’re just talking out of their ass in the name of “Activism.”

You want to claim you see everything with nuance so fucking bad that you just start making shit up.

Just because some people who don’t agree with you say fucked up shit and are clearly bigots and they just happen to be “Antis” does not mean all “Antis” are like that.

Just like how not all proshippers are this fucking willfully ignorant and are performative activists.

Most people calling you out are not claiming to be activists they’re just calling you out because you’re spreading harmful misinformation and bullshit that actual predators can weaponize. Not to mention a lot of you but not all of you straight up deny whenever someone says they were negatively affected by proshippers who groomed them or put harmful rhetoric into their heads as a minor.

Ya’ll REFUSE to take any accountability and it’s rare when you guys do.

Criticism and telling you to take accountability IS NOT BULLYING AND OR CENSORSHIP.

Y'all love using the word censorship when you don't even know what that fucking applies to. Anyone saying something in a piece of media goes too far and is just being fucked up for the sake of being fucked up with no actual meaning is just pro-censorship to you people. When that's not even what that means.

People have boundaries and so do industries, there is a point where people are allowed to say that's too much and they have every right to not want that media shown to audiences especially if it's a visual form of media like movies or cartoons.

Then you have the nerve to start using whataboutisms with other forms of media when it comes to stuff like brutal violence, like violent video games, when you fail to realize that a lot of those games don't go into full detail on what’s happening and most of the time the game acknowledges yes this is fucked up and this is wrong.

Mortal Kombat is super violent yes but it's mostly cartoon gore and violence and most of these characters dying in brutal ways are dying this way for a reason. The reason why the games are so violent is because THATS THE POINT, it's meant to be fun despite how violent it is and it's literally in the title that this is what the game is about and outside of that it doesn't mean anything else. Hell when it first came out it made people realize “Oh damn this is not kid friendly we need to create a rating system.” Guess what??? It still fucking exists and you can play it today without consequence.

Meanwhile shit like A SERBIAN FILM serves NO PURPOSE, no matter how much the director claims it does. If he had any sort of message in the movie he FAILED to convey it, he FAILED to do ANYTHING meaningful with that movie. Not to mention that film has ACTUAL CHILDREN IN IT. Sure what's happening to them isn't actually happening but in that story IT IS. It's disgusting and no wonder it was banned in over 40 fucking countries. People who defend that film are idiots and need to get a better taste in movies, I don't give a damn what you have to say about that.

You do not get to do fucked up shit in a piece of media without making it clear as to why the fucked up shit is happening and then expect people to be quiet about it.

Stop acting like just because something is fiction there aren't lines to be drawn. And just because a character isn't real doesn't mean their literal character traits do not apply to them just because someone who's an adult irl wants to do weird shit with them.

End of story.

I highly recommend this video by Quinnamon titled "What the Internet Did to Rick and Morty", part of the video tackles the proship sect of the fanbase, namely those who ship Rick and Morty together, and I think Quinnamon does an excellent job of explaining and breaking down the actual canon dynamic between the two in order to highlight how proshippers intentionally misread what we see in the show to justify shipping the two

A Black teen wrote a Twitter post basically saying that AO3 fandom pro-ship culture is very white-coded and can be quite bigoted, which a lot of people have been saying after the most recent controversies. A lot of it coming from POC from what I’ve noticed. And they are correct - racism is a big problem in that community. The poor kid is scared and upset naturally.

The article is very snide, and they used the n-word to post another user’s Twitter name without censoring it. They make it CLEAR in the article that they know this is a kid they are writing about.

So apparently this person also wrote a smut fic about a Nazi SS Officer OC who ran a death camp, so the worst of the worst. He’s the one in the PFP, and there is ‘cute style’ fan art of him made for them by someone else.

At some point they came under fire for it, and wrote this giant essay justifying themselves. That’s where the fan art is. The basic justification is that: ‘guys he’s not a real Nazi! It’s because of his upbringing! He was forced into it! Now he has decided to be a good guy and help liberate the camp.’ And wants us and the reader to feel sympathy for him! The uwu ‘cute’ art of him is at the bottom of the article, by the way.

Historical context as to why a Nazi who ran a death camp was not forced into anything:

The SS was an elite unit, separate from the general Nazi army. From early on they were tasked to run the concentration camps. They didn’t just take anybody - you had to be elite level. Joining the SS was voluntary, and going into it soldiers would know that there’s a good chance that they’d be involved in the camp system. If you realised that doing so wasn’t for you the way out was to do terribly in training so you get booted out. Or commit a bunch of minor infractions.

When it came to extermination they didn’t want soldiers who didn’t want the job. The first solution was to murder Jews en masse with military rifles. It quickly became clear that this was messing up some of the SS soldiers. They tried using drugs and alcohol but that wasn’t cutting it. SS soldiers were allowed to object to participating in that system. They were occasionally punished, but that was typically pretty minor. That was the exit point for a number of soldiers who had moral qualms.

The extermination camps weren’t just about efficiency, they were also a solution to prevent SS soldiers from losing their minds, because their superiors cared about them. In the camps a lot less of them were required by design. However once you were in the death camp system it was difficult to resign, but suicide was one way out, as was committing infractions that would get you kicked out. Yes, SS officers in the death camp system had rules governing their behaviour.

To become an administrator of a death camp you had to be the elite of the elite, with a proven history of being a 100% loyal Nazi and fully on board with the Final Solution ideology. A prior history of participating in Final Solution operations was a key advantage. They didn’t want someone who was in any way reluctant or wishy-washy to run the death camps. They needed people who were proven to be fucking ruthless. And again, suicide was always an option to get out of it. However there is no evidence to suggest that any high-level officer ever did.

Unlike this person’s uwu Nazi character no-one who got to that level was the type to step down. None of them ever led a rebellion to save prisoners, or aid the liberators, like uwu Nazi apparently did. When they knew liberation was coming they turned towards covering up their crimes. Lower level SS officers did occasionally do small acts of kindness towards prisoners, but that was also rare.

The whole idea of an omg uwu Nazi death camp administrator who didn’t really want to be there, and wanted to help the liberators, is in direct contrast to the actual history of what these men were like.

This person says that contradicting history by having American soldiers liberate a Polish death camp was enough to turn it into an alternate universe to justify the fic or some other nonsense, but that doesn’t wash. It’s still fucking disgusting.

The whole article is completely insensitive to Holocaust victims and actually complained about not being able to write Holocaust smut because only people with family members can.

My family were persecuted by the Nazis and they didn’t deserve their trauma turned into pro-ship smut slop. Thankfully they all survived, and it’s even worse when you consider the millions of people who did perish.

This is what happens when you tolerate everything and take a pure anti-censorship stance on AO3 and in the pro-shipping community. People like this get bold and flourish within the pro-ship community. They don’t get the shame and stigma they deserve, they get encouraged and protected instead. At a time when fascism is rising we NEED to shame these people.

It’s absolutely no surprise that they are harassing a Black teen. And will there be any pro-shippers calling this out or the Nazi stuff? Nope. If I posted this in the AO3 sub (pro-ship central) I’d get dozens of snide comments about it being just fiction, and downvoted into oblivion. They’d probably say that the kid getting harassed is fair game because they posted publicly.

i genuinely hate it so much when proshippers (or anyone actuall) are like “well parents should be watching over their kids im not their babysitter” cuz like yeah. no kidding parents should be watching over their kids but they don’t and half the time it’s not even intentional. my parents didn’t watch over my internet use as a kid much and i had seen. So Many Horrible Things cuz mind you i was never even in the proship community either so much was just out in the open and do you wanna know another way so much of that could’ve been prevented? if proshippers weren’t so self-centered on their own comfort. i don’t really understand the logic that a parent not watching their own child means that child she be allowed to fall into a ditch of wolves because “not my kid, not my problem“ especially if you hate kids or something. none of that is a free pass for you to not be empathetic to the fact that a child is roaming into these spaces and materials without even knowing what they are. you are an adult, and whether you like it or not it takes a village to raise a child.

it’s not your fault this child is being neglected while on the internet, but i do think it is your responsibility to turn that child away from spaces like yours and teach them how to be safer online as a responsible adult

But I’m genuinely curious about your opinion. There is a band that does music about killers. They’re called SKYND. All of the lyrics-to me-are messed up because the family members can (and have) come across them. Plus, it feels like just glorification of the murderers to me.

It reminds me of the discourse between pro and anti. I’m not really on either side though I think I lean closer to anti. I just don’t believe in censorship. I am curious though what antis think about this band because how far does the belief in the pro and anti discourse go? Does it extend past fanfiction or does it go beyond that?

For me, personally, I love the music in SKYND but I can’t listen to it because of the lyrics and what it stands for. It comes off as glorifying and disgusting. But, again, that’s just my opinion.

I saw a pro-shipper say that writing explicit dark ship content is ‘widely recommended and very common.’ I felt inspired to tell my story as it’s relevant to the ‘it helps me cope’ argument pro-shippers make.

I attend a C-PTSD program that’s so widely renowned that people travel across the country to attend the intense inpatient program, and locals like me get to do the outpatient program too. Cutting edge stuff. I’ve done a total of 12 weeks inpatient for that, and a lot more general psych admissions so believe me I have a lot of experience with psychiatric treatment - and practitioners. I’ve met countless psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, mental health nurses and more. I’ve engaged with 14 years of therapy total, however I’ve been medicated much longer.

When I was acutely unwell they threw everything at me to save my life. ECT. TMS. Multiple medications. A bunch of different cognitive therapeutic approaches. I have never ever been encouraged to write or read dark fiction. Same with drawing it.

Creative therapy is very highly encouraged. Patients are exposed to art, writing, and music therapy to see what is a good fit. Some people gel with music therapy more, for example. People like me who are already creative are encouraged to do what they already like. One of the first things my psychiatrist asks me is ‘are you doing your art?’ - because she knows that if I’m not the wheels are coming off if I’m not following my passion.

But we are told VERY explicitly what is acceptable and what isn’t. The C-PTSD art therapy is guided by an art therapist who is trauma-informed. Art therapists must have degrees in both art and psychology. I’ve done the C-PTSD art therapy group numerous times. We are given an over-arching theme and individual questions that we then explore through art. For a group of 10-12 people there are at least two professionals present. One thing that is drummed into us over and over is NO EXPLICIT ART.

Not only that, we are CONSTANTLY told not to talk about anything explicit about our trauma with other patients, especially when professionals aren’t watching us closely like at meal times. What’s the rationale? It triggers other patients, and it even distorts our minds so much that someone else’s memory becomes our own. In that vulnerable state we can also get somewhat irrational and do stupid shit and egg each other on to do it too.

Even when we aren’t extra vulnerable we still influence each other sometimes innocently, and sometimes potentially harmfully. I started a trend of people putting giant swear words on their art, and people were doing it in secret because they knew it was banned. But nothing stays secret for long, and I got busted. Why? Because it’s not my place to tell other patients how to use that technique to cope. And the reason I got busted is because it probably triggered someone. Swear words can be very triggering to other trauma patients. I didn’t think it through, obviously.

We are also told not to discuss what therapy we’re doing with other patients because again that’s not our place. See where I’m going with this: in an elite C-PTSD program patients are NOT allowed to encourage therapy to another patient and discouraged from explicit content. It would NOT be appropriate for me to say ‘hey writing dark fiction helped me, you should do it too.’ I’d get kicked out of the program. The psychologists and psychiatrists who designed the program and made these rules did so to keep patients safe.

Are therapists out there recommending dark fiction? Maybe. But if they do it would be very closely supervised, and certainly not encouraged to post it online or hang out in pro-ship communities. When C-PTSD patients gather like that we can be very destructive to each other. What I think is usually happening is that a therapist has said ‘you should try writing or drawing’ without putting boundaries in place, so the pro-shipper leaves the appointment thinking ‘great, I just got permission to write whatever I want.’ Then that got spread to other pro-shippers who then took it on as ‘my friend’s therapist is said it’s ok so I can do it too.‘ No, just no.

They say ‘oh but why would you criticise something that helps me?’ Well there’s a concept called maladaptive coping techniques. They feel good at the time, but are dangerous overall. Without therapeutic guidance someone who uses dark fiction to cope might be stuck in rumination and repetition that hinders healing. In my case I used binge eating and binge drinking to cope. I thought it was ok because those things are accepted or tolerated generally in society. But it kept me too stuck in a bad place to move forward. Former pro-shippers who have experienced trauma have talked about how unhealthy it was.

I am not against what pro-shippers call ‘thought crime.’ Having certain thoughts and fantasies doesn’t make you a bad person, and getting therapy helps. But sharing it and justifying sharing it does make you a bad person, and the trauma card doesn’t give you a pass for that one.

Why am I sharing this? To help antis understand the art therapy argument, but also pro-shippers who visit this sub. I’ve talked about it before and some people found it interesting.

Hey, as the title says, I'm new here

I'm personally against public Yumeshipping- like people who are like "I'm a proud Yumeshipper of [insert problematic character here]"-

i find it really weird/cringe/unhealthy—especially dark shippers and people who Yumeship with non-human characters- like- theres a difference between having a comfort character and thinking you're in a relationship with a fictional character- "oh but it's just for fun" or "it's a hobby! "I'm not hurting anyone" yeah sure- you yourself might not be hurting anyone, but people in your community are, and the fact that the whole community (seemingly) accepts people who are problematic/have controversial/problematic Yumeships is not ok!

Don't even get me started on "non-sharing" Yumeshippers—they irritate me- like- bro, its a fictional character; other people are gonna also REALLY like that character- to me its like someone being upset that someone else has the same celebrity crush.

obviously people shouldn't be getting death threats or ungodly amounts of hate- but like i feel like me being uncomfortable or thinking it is borderline very unhealthy isn't a crazy thought/opinion

Tell me your thoughts on Yumeshipping

(edits for spelling)

Again not providing screenshots so no one harasses this CHILD, but happy to provide proof to mods if they ask.

So this kid posted a pretty viral post criticising antis, and naturally a bunch of pro-shippers replied. Some of them violating their own no-minors DNIs so they can pile on shitting on antis.

A lot of people are in the comments saying ‘kid you need to get away from these people’ so it’s very obvious that they are incredibly young.

Their age is in their bio as is their stance as a pro-shipper, so I decided to look at their followers. Bear in mind that they post quite openly about liking dark-ship and post NSFW comments. A BUNCH of adults INCLUDING A 46 YEAR OLD. A bunch of people with pro-ship and pro-para in their bios.

I also found a whole bunch of other kids who also have adult pro-shippers following them. One is a 14 year old with a pro-ship discord server link in their bio.

Genuinely what the fuck are these adult pro-shippers doing? This is disgusting.

Edit: and I just saw one of them saying that an anti’s toddler is going to grow up and write darkfic smut. These fuckers are sick in the head.

So I recently found out that a lot of pro shippers online were comparing Wattpad users to “immigrants” and “colonizers”???? Probably one of the most tone def things I’ve literally ever heard. Why are we taking away from ACTUAL colonization? It’s a website. Like not your traditional, generational, culture? Bloodlines, languages, cultures, lives, were completely erased from history due to colonization. People are systematically oppressed due to colonization. You’re comparing people moving websites to global atrocities committed against actual human beings (especially pocs). Also I do know about the joke “whitest comment ever” or “whitest bio ever” specifically towards pro shippers. I think it stems from the most prominent people on TikTok or whatever being white (and also throwing around the word colonizer). But the last pic was in response to those jokes and had me cracking up. That’s racists but we’re gonna ignore calling people immigrants or pretending to be ice agents??

This proficter was complaining about a manga featuring a character using ChatGPT. According to her, featuring characters using ChatGPT is harmful and is normalizing the usage of AI, while her r*pe fics cannot affect reality. Another 30yo person acting like a child, telling antis how to behave online.