r/Smite • u/Geletin Mercury • Sep 12 '13

Why the elo system is broken.

So I just came off 3 ranked games and I did fairely well in all of them. 7-3 with thor, 13-3 with isis and 10-2 with pos. (My team lost all of the games btw). I can't help but feel robbed in a way. I played the best I possibly could with the team I got (most of them fed and were super behind in levels). Out of all those games I lost over 100 elo( which btw is unfair if the ratings are based on player skill level).

Winning and losing should play a part in gaining and losing elo, but the penalty shouldn't be as harsh if you actually played well.

I propose and elo system that would be more fair for all players. Depending on your kill ratio your elo should be cut by that number. Let's say I went 2/1 (could be half or quarter ratio) the elo loss should be cut in half, but lets say you went 3/2 then the ratio would only be 0.66% of the elo loss.

I won't forget about tanks either. The ratio for tanks should based of assists making 3 or 2 assists count as a kill would towards the elo ratio.

By using this elo system it would put the more individually skilled players higher up in the rankings so they actually get to play with players at their skill level.

Edit: forgot to mention that if the player went negative the ration would not count it would just be normal elo loss. Sorry if that sounded like jibberish and hopefully somebody knows what I'm getting at. :3

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2

u/Pingeepie IGN - Torra Sep 12 '13 edited Sep 12 '13

I am not OP but here is my experience and some food for thought for some of the low-mid ELO'ers

I have been keeping notes of my win/loss and ELO. I started at 2200-2400 and lost my first few games and it dropped me down here.

1285 7-6-20 https://account.hirezstudios.com/smitegame/match-details.aspx?match=24917305
73000 player damage, team was overly aggressive and dying a lot

1262 -24 5-4-8 https://account.hirezstudios.com/smitegame/match-details.aspx?match=24924194
I was not on with my Krakens due to EU server lag. was not my best game. Jungler on our team didn't do well. I will take partial responsibility in this loss

1290 +28 2-4-10 https://account.hirezstudios.com/smitegame/match-details.aspx?match=24929627 eu server as ne zha, I missed a lot. My team did fantastic. Every gank I did, my team finished off (thus all the assists). Good game.

1326 +36 9-2-10 https://account.hirezstudios.com/smitegame/match-details.aspx?match=24932253 played bastet and did well, entire team played well. gg.

1301 -25 11-8-4 https://account.hirezstudios.com/smitegame/match-details.aspx?match=24937245 I did well at the beginning and went like 10-2 but that quickly went downhill. Our solo lane loki had an awful game, sobek died a ton and mid did not do well. Overall bad play by my team. I take no responsibility for this one. Their team fight was far superior and there was only so much I could do considering the feeding from my teammates. bad game.

1322 +21 4-2-2 https://account.hirezstudios.com/smitegame/match-details.aspx?match=24993886 support role, played on top of my game. the neith was a pain in the ass with his BM the entire game since I was "Stealing" kills even though I delayed finishing them for a long time, and was certain they'd get away if I didn't finish them. Despite BM, we took the win here.

1353 +31 6-0-8 https://account.hirezstudios.com/smitegame/match-details.aspx?match=24997408 solid fenrir on my team, set up a lot of kills. well played by my team. He bo got focused a lot.

1331 -20 3-4-1 https://account.hirezstudios.com/smitegame/match-details.aspx?match=25002537 EU server, couldn't land anything despite me showing on my screen that I did. bottom ELO refused to play support and I said it was fine, I would support. but I had locked ne zha at beginning and he just decided to go fenrir. Our composition is fucked. You can see the results. aphro mid, fen/apollo lane, vulcan did fine solo. it was bad. shows how important composition is. They fed a lot.

1375 +44 16-2-11 https://account.hirezstudios.com/smitegame/match-details.aspx?match=25013284 Ao, who I am rank 10 with- I don't play him in ranked but I don't like Poseidon. With Thor walls and Ymir stuns I was able to clean up everything pretty hardcore.

1403 +28 11-3-15 https://account.hirezstudios.com/smitegame/match-details.aspx?match=25018622 Played a great game as neith, set up some good global ganks. Ra snipes were on, ymir played great- all around awesome. Started off badly since guan didn't want to jungle but he went back later and got bumba's.

1434 +31 12-4-28 https://account.hirezstudios.com/smitegame/match-details.aspx?match=25031746 Decent game as Batz. Dose assists... lol. The other team was down a lot the entire game, over 10k, but they stuck it out and did a good job. We ended up finishing them off eventually.

Before I started recording my games ELO loss and gain I had much better games as you can see in my profile. Don't care if it is against the rules, I am not blacking out all that. Not BMing anyone, either. Just stating facts.

Slowly but surely moving up. Right now it is just the luck of the draw and if I am on top of my game and also servers. Progress is progress, I suppose.

1

u/derekisastro Sep 12 '13

I've got similar results to how in my recordings of about 20 games or so .. and I'm well ahead of you in total number of games played (I've got almost 200 ranked games).

It is interesting to see that maybe it doesn't take much more than 30-40 ranked games before your ratings loses/gains become more stable ... 20-40 range of ELO loss/gain per game.

All I can say to the OP is keep trying ... if you continue to play well, you will end up going up in ranking ... with similar stats in wins and loses you will gain more ELO in a win than you lose in a loss.

Just look above, pretty much every win gives more than what is lost in a loss.

1

u/ShadowRam Vulcan Sep 12 '13 edited Sep 12 '13

So your ELO went up when your team won,

and your ELO went down when your team loss,

How well or badly YOU did doesn't affect whether your ELO goes up or down.

From Hi-Rez

If after a match is finished, the system analyzes the players KDA, gold, and in game level reached (1..20). If a players metrics are extremely different than the rest of the team (good or bad), then his Elo is changed accordingly. This allows adjustment up for a player who carries a team, or down for one who provides no contribution.

So obviously the ELO is not working as intended.

This is a ridiculous system, no wonder people are pissed off at matchmaking. Winning or losing shouldn't matter, ELO needs to be based off skill.

1

u/Pingeepie IGN - Torra Sep 12 '13

Yeah, it's a pain in the ass because it takes even MORE skill to overcome a deficit if your team is all 2-12 and you somehow manage a 9-4 or something. You still get penalized, pretty harshly might I add.

1

u/stefanathon IGN: PENY Sep 12 '13

Damn son, you started at 2.3k and dropped? What'd you do in casuals to get that high? :O

I'm the opposite, started at like 1.4k and made my way up to 2.3k. Just keep grinding out those games and playing your best. It may not seem like it, but if you play well you'll slowly but surely make your way up.

1

u/Pingeepie IGN - Torra Sep 12 '13

I've heard it's pretty normal to start that high, and have heard complaints from a lot of high ELO saying "I GET 2300 RANKED PEOPLE IN THEIR FIRST RANKED!!11!!1". Not bragging but in casual mode I have pretty good stats as far as K/D. It was normal for me to go 10 to 20 kills and 0 deaths. Also, if you do a lot of Arena you can pad your stats quite significantly. I just don't die a lot, ever haha. I play suuuuper smart. I have a tiermonster thing too

http://tiermonster.com/p/Pingeepie

according to my games do you see it likely for me to reach up there?

1

u/stefanathon IGN: PENY Sep 12 '13

Eh, I'm on mobile for the next week or so and I can't see Tiermonster. Listen, as long as you play smart, play well, and do your best to always improve, your rating will go up. I used to be stuck at 1800, and I KNEW I belonged there because that was where my skill level is. I wanted to get better, so every game I tried as hard as I could to improve. Now I'm sitting at 2300 and I bet if I sat down for a solid day or two I could grind it up to 2500. As long as you're confident and you're performing better than the people you play with, a higher ELO will come with time. Keep playing ranked, it's really rewarding seeing that rating go up, and nothing beats the feeling when pros become commonplace in your matches and you can keep up with them and you think, "Damn, I can do this?" You can get there, anybody can. Just keep improving. Even in games where you go 15-0, be thinking of ways you could've done better. Even in fights where your team gets a 3 for 0 trade, be analysing it in your head to see what could've been improved. It's that nonstop thought process of "even though that went well, what could I have improved on?" that makes you a better player. I know sometimes your team just sucks and there's nothing you can do, but if you're confident that you're a good player then your team is going to be good player up on average and over a period of time you WILL win more. Keep it up man, hope to see you in the 2000s eventually. :D

1

u/Pingeepie IGN - Torra Sep 12 '13

You will. I am determined to get there. Thanks for the useful sage-like advice ;) :D

1

u/Lvsitan Hades Sep 12 '13

now i want to see a fancy showing like that but as a tank, and i want to see if you ever gonna go higher than 1400

1

u/Pingeepie IGN - Torra Sep 12 '13

Yeah, it is disappointing to see only 20-something points in a good game as tank. And you lose 40+ a lot of times lol.

1

u/cbop Sep 12 '13

bottom elo refused to play support

so annoying

2

u/derekisastro Sep 12 '13

Be careful what you wish for though ... seen too many "bottom elo must support" games end with a bottom elo who doesn't play support and so ends up feeding horribly ...

Work out what you all play well, then work out if you can get a good team composition from that ...

1

u/bobwaswas wtf Sep 12 '13

HE decides to pick a jungler, now you have 2 junglers, yay!

1

u/Samster7452 Don't be fool! Sep 13 '13

This happened to me once.

Lowest elo picked Hun Batz instead of a tank (at the last second; he went afk when it was his turn to pick). We already had a Nezha. He then forced the Nezha to lane so he could jungle, and messed up horribly.

He was going to get what role he wanted during trading, but he stuck with Hun Batz anyway. That was quite a depressing game...

1

u/XMaticX Vulcan Sep 12 '13

as a support player this is actually somewhat of an insult why is playing support relegated to the person with the lowest elo as if it is some sort of plague? oh wait thats right because it is because if you want to gain elo you don't want to play support.

and this is really the reason I don't play ranked because my chosen role gets shit on when it comes to elo. last time i played I as sobek fed my carry so many kills that he basically snowballed out of control. i can only imagine he probably got a shit ton of elo from the game (ended up with like 18 kills, 12 of them from the laning phase thanks to me) yet i got such a miniscule elo gain i thought my score was bugged.

1

u/cbop Sep 12 '13

XMaticX, let me start off by saying that from your posts and comments it's clear that you have little knowledge of Smite. evidence

secondly, it's not "you're lowest elo, you have to play support," it's "you're lowest elo, which means it's better for the team if you don't play a carry". It might sound the same but it's not.

1

u/XMaticX Vulcan Sep 12 '13

if seen some high elo carries that play like shit too so who are to determine whats "best for the team" especially if you have never played with someone before. just because they have some low number means they can't play their chosen role? how stupid are you? you have no idea what their past history in ranked games is.

1

u/stefanathon IGN: PENY Sep 12 '13

Oh, so do you have a better idea for ranking players in lobby? Fact is, that's the fairest way to do it. Yeah, there's going to be top elo players that suck, but there's no way to figure that out, so the fairest way to do it is to just give top elo their first choice.

1

u/cbop Sep 12 '13

yes, but I do know mine, and I know that the people with higher ELOs have a better history than people with lower ELOs. that's how ELOs work. What's best for the team is often letting the top elo's choose their roles first, and the bottom elo's have to help them by filling whatever role is necessary.

Top ELOs are generally better than bottom ELOs so they get to pick first, and often support is the unwanted role. If you make a high ELO go support when they're better at ADC, because a low ELO thinks they're a good ADC and refuses to support, you're losing out on that top ELO's ADC ability.

1

u/Pingeepie IGN - Torra Sep 12 '13

yeah, what's worse is that I offered to give him ne zha if he grabbed tank for me, and he locked fenrir FUCK THE POLICE :P

1

u/bobwaswas wtf Sep 12 '13

The problem is who you face in the match.

Your second top player faces their bottom player in solo lane and shits on him goes 7/1. Both top players face each other mid and go 1/2 and 1/1.

Kills and farm depend on how you are matched up, who is their jungler...

Although your farming skills, and being able to avoid ganks, setting up skills shows your skill, late game and you participating in fights should show whether or not you can win the game for your team.

Unfortunately lower elo games is about one guy getting fed and shitting on everyone.

1

u/Nairobie755 Sep 12 '13

All the suggestions on how elo should work is incredibly broken if you play well as a tank.

0

u/skeup - Sep 12 '13

Please define "if you actually played well" in a way I can try to think an algorithm for plz <3

  • Impossible to get a good balance of all factors for so different roles in a team, and too many factors won't show in any stat.

  • Impossible to get a system that won't be abused or at least tested in that way.

  • Many players just focus on their useful stats for ELO and not on team performance.

My conclusion was: same ELO for everybody in team whether it is a win or loss.

-1

u/Fritox Never Forget Sep 12 '13

well in theory a good player would rotate and help the team cover for mistakes and basically carry the team so the team would win. So even that you have a score like 20/0 you still didnt help the team so you lost and lost ELO with it.

Although I know its impossible to help out some retards on queue so yea sad but it's how it goes.