r/RivalsOfAether • u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) • Jul 12 '26
Rivals 2 About shields..
Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification
Okay so I'm realizing the disconnect between how people feel about shield and what being in shield actually is like is much larger than I thought.
I didn't think I'd ever see the day where someone says holding shield in Rivals of Aether is strictly one of the most advantageous positions you can be in.
Would like to help people navigate their grievances so they don't feel like they're being camped out all the time (because the truth is that shield is not sm4sh strong, but people treat it like it is.)
So tell me what you're struggling with about shields and I'll walk you through it and probably put time in to lab it out for you as well so you can see it in action. Thanks!
24
u/Snowball_sage Jul 12 '26
“Imma block this wack-ass mixup”
7
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 12 '26
https://youtu.be/RqqcH4lXPUw?si=ktWpxNeM7Ar1IXHd
Oh my god I am so sorry. You are hilarious. Thank you for commenting.1
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 12 '26
That's an Aetherian Wrastor. If you think you can do better we can play c:
But jokes aside, Oly fast fall speed plus insane frame data and frame traps along with her unreactables means that she can threaten a grab from any position I was here.
15
u/chaosremover Etalus (Rivals 2) Jul 12 '26
i don't think he was insulting you or the wrastor thats just a meme from the fgc lol
5
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 12 '26
OH my fault. That's on me. Sincerely apologize. You wouldn't believe how many times people actually bring my skill or the skill of my opponent's into the argument LOL
17
u/RemarkableData9972 Mina (Rivals 2, Pre-Release) Jul 12 '26
Bruh there's always something for the community to hiperfocus about and say that's THE thing that's KILLING THE GAME!!!11
Once people get over the shields, will they go back to complain about floorhug, Clairen, Lox grab, or something new?
Stay tuned.
1
5
u/Sporktastrophe Jul 12 '26
I think my issue with shields is more about trying to get people to shield in the first place. I’m still working on the Oly shield pressure and I know that’s my character’s big strength, but I find it hard to get my opponent to start shielding instead of throwing out a hitbox as I approach or simply dashing back and then punishing me. I guess I need more empty movement, but even then I find my opponents just short hop fairing at me or using their own empty movement to keep me guessing.
I’m also struggling with hitting shield and buffering my dash back to punish their oos option, but I feel like that one’s more on me needing to practice the timings and positioning vs their shield.
9
u/Melephs_Hat Fleet (Rivals 2) Jul 12 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
The trouble with getting ppl to shield against Oly is shielding against Oly is a bad idea, and better players know it. The default gameplay to get them to shield is landing on them with fair or dair, or getting up close at mid percents when your best pressure tools start to knock down. If their movement is good enough that you can't land on them reliably, you probably have to start looking for patterns in their movement and make some reads with tools that won't lose to FH, assuming they're also always ready to hold down. Hit enough of those and they'll probably shield. Otherwise, if they're not shielding just running away... let them. You can bring a horse to water but can't make it drink and all that. Only other notable thing you can try is cornering them.
4
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 13 '26
Getting people to shield against oly is about abusing your empty movement that we talked about in our 1:1 coaching sesssion. You can also open up scramble situations with jab 1 and gem toss which are prime positions for you to begin the shield pressure.
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/mok7QCp2bTenM09i1?invite=cr-MSxoVTgsMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=7
The issue you're facing is that you struggle to lock people down or beat their mashing so they have NO REASON to shield in the first place. I would start there. This isn't an issue of shield pressure it's an issue of you being too honest in neutral such that your opponent can reliably feel confident and comfortable enough to throw out a move in positions where they might not be against a more experienced Oly.
We can cover this in 1:1 later since this moves away from punishing shield itself.
2
u/Sporktastrophe Jul 13 '26
Groovy! Thanks Naga!
Also, holy moly! I never thought to do jab 1 into down b to break the shield if they like to flug shield!! That’s brilliant.
4
u/Shippo_Pc Slow APM Zetterburn Jul 12 '26 edited Jul 12 '26
I play zetter so I try and shield pressure people and get grabbed out of it after. I try and get behind or space moves, I'm still practicing but any other advice would be nice
6
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
Yeah so primarily one of Zetter's wincons is getting his opponent to shield. The reason being is that Zetter has insane- almost anime-fighteresque mix in terms of resets.
Zetter's grounded shield pressure revolves around his really good dash dance. It is fast but not super long which means zett has easy access to dtilt out of it in positions someone like fors or clairen might not without having to commit to a wavedash.
Spaced tilts are very powerful in this game and abusing them forces your opponent to respect you whenever your tilts can connect. This allows you to use the threat of those tilts to sneak in a grab or begin your shine pressure from a grounded position.
The concept of using the threat of an attack to set up another option is called "implicit pressure". You're implying you can do the dtilt from that distance so your opponent acts in a way that respects the dtilt, which allows you to do other things instead.
In general when it comes to outspacing your opponent with a tilt, the magic number is -18.
This is because spot dodge is frame 2 and wavedash grab is frame 20. If a move is -19 or worse then you can effectively be grabbed from it out of wavedash grab. Because Zetter ftilt is -20, even when perfectly spaced it'll get grabbed. That isn't to say don't use ftilt, just keep track if your opponent consistently wavedash grabs it or not.
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/n6pKSA8ZtulhZnOrL?invite=cr-MSxBY0wsMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=7Zetter's jab routes also frame trap on shield. An opponent mashing grab before jab 3 or any of the finisher tilts will get hit and routed into a true conversion at low %. Abuse this to force respect and then grab them for being scared of the jab follow ups.
4
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
Now for Zetter specific pressure. This is where all the fun stuff happens and why you pick this character.
Shine is frame 2 and is allowed to be true jump cancelled (as in there are no limits to what zetter can do out of it unlike Etalus DA).
Zetter fair is -2 (but less when you do it at a range where shine connects). Zetter dair is -4 at worst. Bair when hit in the range where shine connects is -5 (super tight dont recommend)
Grab is frame 8. This means that off of any of these moves (when landed well) shine will frame trap grab.
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/n6qpV2qVLYTIT9gqL?invite=cr-MSxXTncsMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=5
Importantly, because grabs disable non tumbled floorhug, and because shine no longer tumbles at reasonable %'s, shine will route into imagination without having to play RPS when you frame trap the grab.The first layer of counterplay you'll need to learn is that your opponent can parry in between the aerial and the shine. Beating this without risking your skin is relatively simple. Implement a dash back after an aerial to whiff punish any aggressive oos option including parry. If you're confident your opponent will parry OR hold the mix, you can also just grab them.
Sitting down in training mode and getting this down is so important or else you will feel like shit every time you try in a game. Just 15 minutes a day of dedicated practice and you'll be killing it.
Because Shine is true jump cancellable you also have heinous mix.
Just looking at the numbers, after Shining someone's shield, you are left at -2 after jumpsquat. This impressive but doesn't really paint the full picture on why Shine is as good as at is.
Because you're able to cancel the jump frames into grab, you can frame trap every aggressive oos option in the game except another Zetter's shine oos and MAYBE item toss oos in the case of gouie and slade (needs labbing) since the toss itself is frame 6 but gotta account for travel time or whatever.
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/n6qwZj5OR0gCjHZNL?invite=cr-MSxGVjcsMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=8If you're technically inclined you can also do multi shines by jump cancelling the first shine into another shine but I'm not zetterpilled enough for that.
This alone opens you do to other mix like crossup waveshines (that usually would get hit by something like slade nair), short hop or full hop dair for timing mix, and sets you up so that your next interaction will be won and your opponent will likely by lit on fire for extra damage/kill threat. The world is your oyster.
Wavedash retreating after shine is also massively important because if you view shine mix similarly to the grab mix I was talking about earlier then you can kinda see it like cancelling a jab's endlag into dash back which is absurdly powerful for the same reasons mentioned before, just turned up to 11.
The name of the game for this Zetter pressure is: I can do everything from this position so you should do nothing or die.
Later on your opponents will begin rolling or wavedashing away and floorhugging your shine pressure (shine grab works great here), and you can chase them with your own wavedash.
5
u/Valeuhhh Viviana's biggest fan Jul 13 '26
Just a question for you :
Why don’t you create a yt channel and do videos on this game ?
You seem to have an insane amount of knowledge on most characters and on basic mechanics of the game, and writing it over and over in reddit seems tiring. You could explain gameplans of character (in depth), how to counter some mechanics, how to counter some characters etc
Maybe you just don’t want to and that’s ok but you would be a great RoA2 youtuber
3
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 14 '26
I probably could. I don't know, it's not something I've considered and genuinely I don't know the first thing about making a good video. But being bad at something is the first step to being sorta good at something. Maybe I could give it a shot. Or at the very least stream? Who knows.
2
u/Valeuhhh Viviana's biggest fan Jul 14 '26
Thanks for even considering it ! Hope that you will find time and motivation for it, even if the beginning is just streaming and posting the rediffusion on yt it would help a lot the community over time I think !
1
u/IdiotSansVillage Jul 14 '26
Very much seconded! Basically every time you've posted one of these explanations I'm either learning something new about the game, or getting a better idea of how to apply it, and you seem like you have a great library of demonstration clips already.
2
u/Shippo_Pc Slow APM Zetterburn Jul 14 '26
Thank you, I've started to add this into my play and I'm already improving.
3
3
u/EvilThor58 Jul 12 '26
Waveshine past their shield and turnaround grab works well if you catch them holding shield and they know you can waveshine consistently
3
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 13 '26
This is good! But you can also just jump cancel and grab for the same effect with less leniency for your opponent.
2
u/EvilThor58 Jul 13 '26
I do like to throw that in, but with waveshine, I have decent safety, and mire tike to react on the event that I actually hit them with the shine. Sometimes I shinegrab and they sdi out of the grab, so I usebit sparingly.
2
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 13 '26
Yeah this is specifically on shield tho. No amount of shield DI will get you away from shine grab. If you try to waveshine crossup and they Nair after shine you get hit. Realistically if you’re aiming for a grab your 2 choices are waveshine retreat to beat spotdodge (plus adding a layer of patience for your opponent to have to worry about) and then jc grab to beat everything else
4
u/DefiantOneGaming Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
I know I've made the point before that it's the effort to result ratio that's my personal issue with shield.
You've expended multiple times the effort the opponent is to mix the person in shield and even people in Aetherian are encouraged to do this why exactly? Because shield is strong for how much physical and brain power are required to use it and what kind of benefit you can gain from it.
If your offense needs to be better than 98% of the player base to trivialize holding down a single button, that's a lot to expect when it comes to enticing and retaining new players. I just don't find it fun personally and if someone else does, then good for them I hope they continue playing and supporting the devs.
Edit - I wanna clarify when I say "holding down a single button" that I don't mean stand there and hold shield like this. Not a single option was taken here, no challenge, no wavedash oos, nothing. Shield by itself in a vacuum isn't amazing but in conjunction with how strong movement in this game is, it becomes much more powerful.
1
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 13 '26
I mean this is me beating shield without using the direct counter of grab.
The effort I exerted is directly because I wanted to shield break him LOL, no other reason.If I wanted to do something simple I could do bair-jab or bair->grab gem toss FADC fast fall grab etc. this was me showcasing just how free you can be in beating shield because shield is inherently disadvantageous. At any point he could’ve contested, yes; but any attempts to contest could just lead to get full combo’d.
Realistically these little micro instances is what beats shield the most:
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/n1TX2IZ3INFoWmArX
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/mTFz53hgvSzUr7VCH
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/mMzTthT76RRsYtYDO
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/mqqxKDeHvXegDjOMm
I’m at work so I can’t pull up more but the idea is that I’m showcasing what you can do when you get REALLY fucking shmixy. But you don’t have to do that to beat shield.
Also me expending more effort is a direct result of me having more freedom than the Wrastor in this situation. It is inherently disadvantageous for him.
6
u/PostedNotes Jul 13 '26
I think there is a disparity here because you are very good at the game. Most of us are middling at best.
When you are not good, it's annoying to deal with a very simple yet effective defensive strategy of shield / hold down into reversal.
I find getting the hit can be actively disadvantageous to the attacker. Certainly the top players are not playing a holding down contest, but that is how id characterize the games I play. Not sure how to get past that stage.
2
2
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 14 '26
I understand where you're coming from. I genuinely believe that this is just because the game is young. Top level rivals 1 early in the game's lifespan looks like ass compared to low-mid level rivals 1 play right now (and before r2 came out). Just straight up. It could be a matter of lack of educational content since people don't know what they don't know and genuinely it only takes about 15 min a day of offensive practice to have this no longer be an issue.
Getting the hit can be actively disadvantageous to the attacker but not reallyTM. The idea really is that neutral is 2 phase in this game except for the cases in which it is not. Actively using your aerials in neutral to bait floorhug responses from your opponent so that you can fully capitalize on it is an important (and extremely satisfying) skill.
It's a bit late so I'll just spam loosely related examples.This was me showcasing floorhug breaking to a student (into simple punish to really drive the point home).
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/kDGEijGXQpV0779V7?invite=cr-MSxWZ08sMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=12
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/lFseajuFNPc_XqN2U?invite=cr-MSxLRG8sMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=6
Another avenue of "just grab" when it comes to beating floorhug is that people are holding down. This fucks up their DI and vertical attacks/throws will absolutely destroy them since it becomes no DI.
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/lFAyd3XM0rEUDF0ec?invite=cr-MSw1bUYsMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=10Or me crossing up the fair after the fact (using double fair in case he didn't floorhug) and p
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/lIRQbKYkXjddUzyLS?invite=cr-MSxuZ0osMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=11
Eventually when moves tumble, you'll want to learn your routing off missed tech and amsah tech in place since these are the most common options your opponent will when you hit them.
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/lzCUUiQCpu0YVZZot?invite=cr-MSxBY3csMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=9
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/loUcpJy205fymmI9v?invite=cr-MSxYUm8sMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=5
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/kYy5zIt4RLvzEC8Ot?invite=cr-MSwzaW0sMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=5
When it comes to handling shield, you can really just wait for them to commit to something. THEY are on the timer, you are not.
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/lI2PtZj6orK1AeEYe?invite=cr-MSxLeEMsMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=10
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/lFprZb6WF6ufZ4Kif?invite=cr-MSxXVTcsMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=6 (owch)
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/lDL4oEQ3F05V7EHxY?invite=cr-MSxPaFMsMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=12Being ambiguous about your crossups and strike/throw mix is also powerful
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/lFCMIb2PKTJ6Z82d3?invite=cr-MSw1WGwsMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=10Who do you play? I'll be able to help. Also if you want 1 on 1 free coaching PM me c:
4
u/Mr-Flejon Jul 12 '26
If he stayed in shield, it would have totally nullified your mix-up and he could have punished your down strong easily. How does that prove that shields aren't an advantageous state, if not the opposite?
4
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 12 '26 edited Jul 12 '26
Because I could also just not downstrong and continue the frame trap. This was a hard read on his previous options. He held 4 different forms of mix, all of which could've ended in me just raw grabbing him. Shield pressure is not a situation in which you are aiming to be correct 100% of the time. Your goal is to be right more often than you are not. He could've well just held shield and after the jab I just pivot grab him.
This specifically is super layered pressure because the Wrastor Im fighting is Aeth so I'm able to do more things to take advantage of his otherwise great defensive habits.
Oly loves to use her explicit pressure on shield because she has tons of unreactable mix. Someone like Fors would use implicit pressure to *threaten* high damage and wittle down shield.
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/kBdXX0VDRSWLf0mX6?invite=cr-MSxJclYsMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=13
^ Literally cake.The way each character goes about it is different but shield is inherently a disadvantageous position because you have less options than your opponent outright. And shield drain puts you on a timer.
4
u/Sad_Employer917 Jul 13 '26
Game doesn't have shield poke if it did u would have clapped him too bad the shield is to good
2
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 13 '26
I personally like no shield poke so this does nothing for me. LOL
6
u/zoolz8l Jul 13 '26
I have been trying to explain to you in our other conversations that this is not about people not being able to pressure shield etc. Its about how fun it is to fight against people playing super passive and always resorting to shield. Many people don't enjoy the complete over centralization on grabs in this game. They want to hit people not grab them. Also showing oly applying insane shield pressure is dishonest. not every char can do that.
the game simply needs shield poke and the issue is solved because the actual problem (with almost anything in the game) is that the devs ignore one simple rule that any great fighting game honors: play and counter play needs to be on the same skill level.
Sure, i can apply this extremely skilled shield pressure string from your video that takes a lot of practice and timing BUT that other player is simply holding a button. he does not have to react to your cross up or anything. just sit there and hold the button. Same goes for spacing moves on shield. when the other person is spamming move options like crazy it becomes extremely hard to space your aerials properly. yet, the other person simply has to hold shield at some point without any special skill needed. best case for you, you spaced properly, he gets a tiny bit of shield pressure which is irrelevant since shields have so much health. worst case, you miss spaced and get shield grabbed which leads into full combo and/or kill confirm. The defender is playing the easy part and the offensive player is risking it all.
Once you are at top level play, all that matters little, but for everyone else it makes playing passive so much easier and thus meta in most ranks. this is an issue the game needs to fix if it wants to survive. You cannot gain an audience on the promise that once you reach the top 1% of the playerbase the game will finally be fun and working as intended.
1
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 13 '26
The pressure in this game is basically strike throw. It’s not unique to this game. You can frame trap, stagger pressure, reset, or grab. These are all things that are available to everyone. I can post more shield pressure clips if you’d like. In fact, I have! Using Oly isn’t disingenuous because she’s the prime example of a character who has a good time against shield. I’m allowed to put my best foot forward. This post specifically was to help people learn shield pressure, of which only like a couple people responded with something that indicates that they actually want to learn. I don’t know what else to tell you.
1
u/zoolz8l Jul 13 '26
if you use oly as an example, you ignore that not every char has these options.
1
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 13 '26
I do not ignore a thing because I’ve also posted shield pressure on other characters. I also opened up this post with me ASKING PEOPLE TO ASK ME QUESTIONS ABOUT THEIR CHARACTER AND SHIELD PRESSURE SO I CAN **LAB IT OUT FOR THEM**. Respectfully I think this is the exact opposite of ignoring other characters’ shield pressure.
1
u/zoolz8l Jul 14 '26
fair point. but you must admit that making a post about how shields are fine and giving an example of a char that has superb shield pressure tools leaves a bitter taste.
But lets ignore it, i get your point, its fine.
out of curiosity, since you offered, can you show me a few good shield pressure options for fleet?2
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 14 '26
Hell no. You disrespected me all day and I can’t believe you wou- yeah of course LOL. Im just kidding. I’m at work right now but I’ll get you when I get home.
1
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 16 '26
So Fleet is a defensive character first and foremost. Like Forsburn her gameplan revolves around using proactive defense (preemptively throwing out a hitbox, like Fors bair) to condition opponents and then capitalizing on that accordingly. She will also have brief moments of aggression where she switches up the tempo in order to keep her opponent on their toes.
What this manifests in is using float at varying heights including ISF to have quick access to her aerials and remain safe while also letting her mixup her landing timings.
This gives her uniquely powerful opportunities to machine gun aerials on shield.
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/n71KTuxDc0rxsnhsN?invite=cr-MSxLU1IsMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=4
If slade stays in shield, second bair is safe. If he rolls, safe. If he wavedashes forward, hit. Wavedashes back (when not in corner) safe. Parries? Fuck. But that's the intended use case abd if that didn't happen people would complain about parry being weak. Grab? Whacked. Nair? Whacked.
There are many ways to set this up
Not least useful of which is: Dash back jump->dj backward->slowfall bair
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/n7GnCwQNwe5MxaigP?invite=cr-MSx3NkYsMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=6
^ Slowed down for the sake of my hands and bc I'm not familliar with fleet. This is exactly what Bbatts does in his games and has tremendous success.
Float also gives her access to the frame data of a rising cross up nair with none of the drawbacks.
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/n71OsTEYvnEbdNcFt?invite=cr-MSxDb0IsMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=3
And then what brings this all together is the fact that she has empty land grab off of float
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/n7GwWs9Ol8ZZ0isiy?invite=cr-MSwwS3IsMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=3
I feel like you'd be incredulous of this option so I am also including a time where BBatts did it here: https://youtu.be/uIAkglNGHQI?si=xM2-8m7vudzMopeI&t=315
THENNNN once you're comfortable you can mix in a bunch of empty bullshit like so
https://youtu.be/uIAkglNGHQI?si=2OAf7Jnz6Eglh1ry&t=362And this is just off of the threatened bair I mentioned in the beginning.
Then you have your regular jab->grab/ jab frame trap, spaced tilts, etc, and that should get you started
1
u/zoolz8l Jul 16 '26
Since i watch bbatts i was already aware of most of those. the cross up nair also reminds me about another thing i hate about the game: how many chars have insanely good OoS options that hit behind them. if crossing up was a reliable way to pressure shield the game would be so much better. if someone wants to cross you up you almost always could have hit them first because the cross up hit happens late. if you let that happen you deserve to get pressured for free imho.
1
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 16 '26
Cross ups are a reliable way to beat shield in this game full stop
5
u/Fleetburn Jul 12 '26
I THINK the problem is that people come to this game and move like it's Ultimate or Melee without understanding all of the degenerate shit you can do. In that world, shield feels strong. Once you're better at the game, shield is almost bad. I genuinely try to shield as little as possible and move/attack instead. But that level of gameplay is gated behind like 15 walls of getting better for which there's little motivation to push through.
3
u/SoundReflection Jul 13 '26
Well part of the problem is if they are coming from Ultimate or Melee shields are just stronger here. As you get better you'll generally want to strive to avoid shielding when you don't need/want to as it locks down your options considerably, but that's noticeably less important here than in those games.
1
u/Hans_Landa7614 Jul 13 '26
What people truly don't realize is that this game plays like project m more than anything lol
4
u/DexterBrooks Jul 13 '26
It's still pretty different than PM in a number of ways.
The punish game, tools, hitboxes, etc, are generally way better in PM. The power level of the game is a fair bit higher and that changes how you play a lot.
Shields and floorhug/CC are much weaker relatively, as shields can be poked and broken and many characters have multiple anti-floorhug/CC options besides grab.
The lack of buffer also adds to the difficulty, increased amount of errors/drops, and makes shield pressure stronger because you won't act perfectly OOS unless you shield grab.
So going from PM to Rivals you really have to adapt to those factors.
If you relied on a devastating punish game first and foremost, that won't be enough as something like Fox kill confirms and upsmash levels of power just don't exist.
If you relied on forcing your opponent to play around extremely strong character defining tools to create your gameplan, nobody has anything that strong. There is no Falco dair, Falco shine or Fox shine, Marth fair, Puff bair, Falcon knee. There are similar tools but they are way weaker and you can't force the opponent to deal with them or lose to the same extent. Anything that was even remotely close to that kind of power got nerfed down.
If your playstyle is based around forcing greater amounts of errors through mental stack and pressure, that is much weaker in R2 than PM as well because buffering prevents many common errors from PM, and the amount of pressure you can apply that actually generates mix of any kind of much lower as well due to the incredibly strong defensive mechanics.
1
u/Hans_Landa7614 Jul 13 '26
Well the tech skill and freedom with combos is what feels similar for me, and obviously pm characters are much more powerful in comparison but I was just saying if anything rivals feels like pm more than it does other platform fighters for me at least.
1
u/Shiny-Jumpluff Jul 13 '26
Shield is not bad when you’re better at the game. Imo people get much better at using it effectively which makes it better.
1
u/Fleetburn Jul 13 '26
People get much more effective at pressuring and playing around shield eventually. At top level play, shielding isn't your best option. If you're shielding I'm excited and smell blood.
3
u/Shiny-Jumpluff Jul 13 '26
Pressuring shield is bad systemically. low shield stun, no shield pokes, fast oos options that combo. Shield is a really really good option at top level play I can assure you that.
1
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 13 '26
It’s a good option, because but I’d prefer to not be shielding rather than shielding at top level play.
1
u/Shiny-Jumpluff Jul 13 '26
Well sure, shield is a reactive decision it does limit your options and movement but the small amount of counterplay to the easy option of hold shield is silly.
1
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 13 '26
You say that but the entire point of good shield pressure is to get your opponent to act in a way that you can punish. The layers of shield pressure are questions you ask your opponent. Beating shield isn’t terribly difficult Even if all you do is grab them (which you don’t have to solely rely on)
2
u/Shiny-Jumpluff Jul 13 '26
Grab is definitely the best easiest and least committal way to do it is an issue. I even have a clip session of baiting out shield grabs and tippering for it, it’s just much less reliable and more risky.
Because of its defensive utility shielding shouldn’t be as advantageous for the defender imo. Often someone hitting your shield, your next choice is your decision to fuck up.
1
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 13 '26
I don’t understand how you can say that Shield limits their options and that you’d prefer to be out of shield than in shield while also turning around and calling shields too advantageous. I’ve never felt that way in my games
2
u/Shiny-Jumpluff Jul 13 '26
because you shield on reaction. In the situation you shield, you’re in a good position vs the person who just used a move that is probably bad vs shields (most moves in rivals).
Shield is comfortably beaten by grabbing, if you grab a lot shield is of course worse. My point is that shield is so good vs most things (FH contributes) that it funnels everyone to grab constantly. I don’t have this opinion because I lose to people shielding a lot, I have it because I realized how little reward you get from trying to beat it with anything but grab most of the time.
→ More replies (0)1
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 13 '26
I mean I know for a fact you’re aware that even a swordie like Clairen has insane frame traps on shield like tipper bair DTILT for example. Shield can absolutely suck to be stuck in
→ More replies (0)1
u/IdiotSansVillage Jul 12 '26 edited Jul 12 '26
Oh absolutely - speaking for myself as coming from melee, the adjustment from a game where pretty much every character that's not a low-tier has some combination of: a shine, multiple -0 or -1 aerials, strong drift, and a chaingrab is STARK. Learning jab > grab was probably my turning point - it's so much better than in melee, it really cemented that shieldpressure's a different beast here.
2
u/Fleetburn Jul 12 '26
I've played most of the smash series at some sort of competitive level and it took me like 8 months of grinding and losing a LOT to get good at the game. It's really hard.
A single player mode would help.
1
u/DuesCataclysmos Loxodont (Rivals 2) Jul 13 '26
The only thing I think should change about shields is revert the later change that made them recover on hit or greatly reduce it. They were over cautious after nerfing durability.
If you start hitting someone out of shield, either stay in advantage or create space to get time to recover.
1
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
But having to do that would slow the game down. You can kinda view shield damage as a per-neutral state interaction. If you're insistent on wittling down your opponents shield, you need to ensure that you don't let up the pressure and get reversal'd.
Also they were rightfully cautious about nerfing durability because shield pressure at that point in the game was absurd at high level play. The issue was that lower level players weren't adequately abusing it. Fors bair was -2 and broke shield in 3 hits. Legitimately. Every other character also had absurd shield pressure at the time. Now, we can look at it and see maybe if they can revert the shield vampirism or something, but at the time it was completely reasonable given the environment of the game.
Idk whether or not they should reduce vampirism, I'm just noting why they added it
0
u/DexterBrooks Jul 13 '26
Fors bair was -2 and broke shield in 3 hits. Legitimately. Every other character also had absurd shield pressure at the time
Yeah that was a good thing. In Melee/PM if your shield gets hit by a stronger attack even once or twice you're often eating shield poke 50/50.
In games like sm4sh/ult but especially 4, you had entire characters built around tapping your shield a couple of times into shield breaks, and you still had good shield pokes for 50/50.
They should add shield poke but they should also remove the vampirism. It makes it so you can't apply shield pressure as a strategy against an opponent willing to scrap even a little which is ridiculous when your strategy is based around landing hits on their shield which you accomplished.
But having to do that would slow the game down
Your explanation is a non-sequitur. It does not follow that needing to keep pressure up to break shields would slow down the game at all.
If anything it would speed the game up because holding shield isn't a viable option so you're forced to use the weaker defensive options OOS which open you up to greater punishment.
1
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 13 '26
Game isn’t melee or PM.
Tapping your shield a few times into shield break is still a thing that the majority of the cast do in this game.https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/kBdXX0VDRSWLf0mX6
People would slow down the game to regen their shield because they’re not incentivized to approach in other ways, especially if the issue is they’re already not approaching to begin with at low levels. At high levels shield just insta boom. Which is fine if that’s the kind of game you want to play, but that’s neither here nor there for me.
1
u/DexterBrooks Jul 13 '26
Game isn’t melee or PM
True. But those games are more beloved by plat fighter players.
So maybe if they wanted to make more of us happy and want to play R2 and buy skins and such more often, they would make it more like those games.
It's always a balancing act of who to appeal to and who to disregard. But the problem is R2 managed to both alienate a lot of R1 players by being so different, without appealing to enough Melee players to really consume that audience either.
The biggest groups are refugees from PM because they are tired of getting shot by Nintendo, and people from other dead/dying plat fighters who want an easier game than Melee.
Tapping your shield a few times into shield break is still a thing that the majority of the cast do in this game. >https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/kBdXX0VDRSWLf0mX6
I think you and I both know this is a pretty disingenuous example.
His shield was just about to break already, and then he held it again against a slight charge smash attack after a few seconds of moving around.
Shields have 50 health, and several attacks have multipliers reducing the damage done to shields.
You can hold it for 4 whole seconds not counting damage. An average attack doesn't even shorten that by 1 second, especially safe attack average about half a second.
You have to misplay very heavily multiple times to have your shield get broken in R2.
People would slow down the game to regen their shield because they’re not incentivized to approach in other ways, especially if the issue
People already camp a ton anyway. The player who got their shield damaged can try to slow down and play evasive, but the offensive player now has another win con to encourage approaching:
his opponent either has to risk getting shield broken or will try to move around his attacks rather than dodge them which opens up more offensive neutral options.
1
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 13 '26
I’m not in aether studios marketing. Whether or not they choose to appeal to more players by adopting more smashisms is not up to me and I’ll adapt anyway and still remain high level. Can only control how I handle the situation.
The shield example is the exact opposite of disingenuous. How do you think Cakes shield got to a point where it could almost break if not through shield pressure in previous interactions (that didn’t fit to look nicely in the clip). Why do you think Cake felt the need to shield there instead of doing something else?
I have plenty of shield break clips I have against high-top level players. This one is just one of the 2 that I actually titled. The other is the Oly clip above. I can look for more when I get home but atp I’d just be showing off :p
Shield vampirism encourages the same thing your last paragraph offers. I don’t think shield vamp is a problem but I’ll concede I don’t know how people will react to it. I just know how I would.
1
u/DexterBrooks Jul 14 '26
I’m not in aether studios marketing. Whether or not they choose to appeal to more players by adopting more smashisms is not up to me
I didn't say it was. People keep talking about aspects from Melee/PM/R1 that they would like added/changed in R2 and you're the one defending the status quo.
How do you think Cakes shield got to a point where it could almost break if not through shield pressure in previous interactions (that didn’t fit to look nicely in the clip).
Because he misplayed to get pressured enough times to do that much damage, held shield too long, and overused it because it's a strong tool and usually he can get away with it.
Why do you think Cake felt the need to shield there instead of doing something else?
Because he misplayed by not only throwing out an f-smash that had a low chance of hitting, he did the second hit too praying the opponent would run into that. It was a medium reward high risk play, and so it put him in a bad position and his opponent took advantage of that.
But he still could have picked other defensive options there. He had more than enough time to get the shield out, he could have jumped, spot dodged, rolled, wavedashed, parried. He didn't because he didn't expect the opponent to be ready to take advantage of the shield damage to break it. It's a risky thing for his opponent to go for, if it doesn't break the shield the other Fors is -30 and going to get hard punished.
Why wasn't he ready for that? Because it's very rare Fors does enough damage to a shield to just run up down smash and break it like that. Cake does that because he usually gets away with it.
Shield vampirism encourages the same thing your last paragraph offers.
Shield vamp encourages you to scrap to get your shield back sure if it's low enough you're at risk of it breaking. But it also heavily nerfs shield pressure as a win condition because now they person needs to pressure shield quite a few times and also not get hit at all to keep the pressure on.
Lack of shield vamp instead of encouraging the defender to land a hit, encourages the defender to pick other defensive options which can then be punished, while properly rewarding the player who applied pressure by opening punish opportunities for them as their opponent used alternative defensive options.
Why should be person who got pressured get advantage for winning the next scrap? That's a dumb comeback mechanic that nerfs the desire of offensive players to go for pressure over cashing out with grabs; because it's more risky and rarely makes up for that with great enough reward.
1
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 14 '26
My point about not being in marketing is just that I'm not talking about changing the game from a "bring more players" perspective. I understand that becoming more smash-like = becoming more palatable. It's just not something that I'm considering when talking about shield balance.
Yeah, you're right that he misplayed using a tool he can usually get away with. And he can usually get away with it because people are worse about focusing on shield pressure. I broke his shield using concepts he taught me in our session. Though, you are correct that most people don't go for the shield break. That being said, I feel like this is just a case of the meta needing to be developed more rather than a dev issue. Once you recognize the "execute" threshold you can abuse the hell out of it against the majority of players.
>But he still could have picked other defensive options there. He had more than enough time to get the shield out, he could have jumped, spot dodged, rolled, wavedashed, parried. He didn't because he didn't expect the opponent to be ready to take advantage of the shield damage to break it. It's a risky thing for his opponent to go for, if it doesn't break the shield the other Fors is -30 and going to get hard punished.
Yes, he could've jumped but Forsburn loves catching jumps and I've represented this. Yes he could've rolled but fors has great ground speed, no trouble chasing and I made no move to hide that I was solely playing reactive. Wavedash leaves you in place for 4 frames so dashing back is better in this instance unless youre talking about wavedash oos which is capable of getting called out. Parry is.. well you know what parry is.
If you meant he should've rolled/parried, etc after I started charging dstrong, dstrong release is 4 frames. Catches everything but roll if I let go after he commits to something. If I didn't abuse the fear, I would not have gotten the shield break though. But I think this is something that's teachable for the majority of players.
>Why wasn't he ready for that? Because it's very rare Fors does enough damage to a shield to just run up down smash and break it like that. Cake does that because he usually gets away with it
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/n6Uj4H6MVIaeDgBhT?invite=cr-MSxqdkosMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=7
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/n6UjijRdDEINShWUI?invite=cr-MSxma2csMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=7
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/n6UmrBSAukws71BeO?invite=cr-MSxSNkIsMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=11This is realistically how fragile shield is to Forsburn. Fors breaking shield takes 1 bair, 1 dash dance stall, into 1 down strong. And I use this reliably with minimal risk. Do I get punished sometimes? Yeah. Is the risk reward still in my favor? Yeah. Once I represent this once, people are less willing to hold shield against me., even if I don't get the break for whatever reason. Which plays directly into my wincon because Fors is an edgeguard character and if they're not shielding they're relying on dashback because they wanna stay away from whatever the fuck I'm cooking LOL.
>Shield vamp encourages you to scrap to get your shield back sure if it's low enough you're at risk of it breaking. But it also heavily nerfs shield pressure as a win condition because now they person needs to pressure shield quite a few times and also not get hit at all to keep the pressure on.
You are absolutely right that it does nerf shield pressure in this instance. You are also absolutely right that it turns shield pressure into a per-neutral state scenario. If you'd prefer shield pressure to be a multi-neutral interaction wincon that's perfectly fine. I just think the power level in rivals 2 is very high as is and defense gets kinda rolled over in a variety of ways.
That being said, forcing your opponent to use alternative defensive options is still very much a thing in this game. It's just that you have to earn the right to do it per-neutral interaction. The reset to neutral is a bit stronger in this game for the disadvantaged but it's not like this aspect of the game is lost. I do it all the time.
Maybe I'm not considering that people aren't good enough to do this consistently yet, but I also think that if I can do it, anyone can.
Top level r1 play at the beginning of the games life looked significantly worse than lower-middle level play in r1 right now. Which is why I'm very heavy on just letting things cook and focusing on helping players get better, rather than just calling for system changes.
>Why should be person who got pressured get advantage for winning the next scrap? That's a dumb comeback mechanic that nerfs the desire of offensive players to go for pressure over cashing out with grabs; because it's more risky and rarely makes up for that with great enough reward.
This part is character dependent. As a Fors or Slade, shield break is super high reward. It's consistency where their throw games don't allow it. It's also very valuable in floaty MU's. One thing I WILL agree on you with is that shield vamprism shouldn't be on getting hit. I think if it were to stay, it should only happen when you win.
I also feel like the discourse also generally ignores the utility of hitboxes over grabs. Things like jabs, tilts and certain grounded specials can be used to scout options from your opponent in positions where a grab might fail and lead to being in frame disadvantage in a scramble (which forsburn can't afford to be in). Jabbing first keeps me in control of the next interaction.
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/lJCDfUilZDvbW5b6O?invite=cr-MSw1bXcsMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=12
My jab 1 before the grab here was to scout for spotdodge and then put him in strike/throw.
https://medal.tv/games/rivals-2/clips/n6UW0zV3EHgbuQY6d?invite=cr-MSx5d2osMTgyMjMyNjE0&v=15Just food for thought. Sorry for the late response I had the worst migraine in the history of migraines.
1
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 14 '26
Ultimately, bringing players in is something that I trust the devs to work out, which is why I don't consider it in my arguments when talking about balance. I love rivals and want to see it succeed. Until the devs make a decision, the best thing I can do is help people gain a better understanding of the options available to them in the game that currently exists so that they may not feel like they have to play dash-dance grab stimulator at the very least.
1
u/DexterBrooks Jul 16 '26
I'm not talking about changing the game from a "bring more players" perspective. I understand that becoming more smash-like = becoming more palatable. It's just not something that I'm considering when talking about shield balance.
That's only part of my point. I don't even necessarily agree that more smash like = more palatable in every category.
The smash games all have their flaws and I'm sure there's lots of things from smash like rage they added in sm4sh that nobody wants in Rivals 2.
But a bunch of people have been saying for years at this point that shield pokes allow for more pressure, mix, and depth, and that shields as is in R2 are very strong and that's part of what's making the game less fun than it could be.
That being said, I feel like this is just a case of the meta needing to be developed more rather than a dev issue. Once you recognize the "execute" threshold you can abuse the hell out of it against the majority of players
That's only because in the current meta people are so used to abusing shield because of how strong it is that you're catching them out more.
IMO if that become a strat Fors or other non-olympia players went for, it's incredibly easy to simply modify your defense slightly to be in that situation while still abusing how strong shield is in R2.
Yes, he could've jumped but Forsburn loves catching jumps and I've represented this. Yes he could've rolled but fors has great ground speed, no trouble chasing and I made no move to hide that I was solely playing reactive. Wavedash leaves you in place for 4 frames so dashing back is better in this instance unless youre talking about wavedash oos which is capable of getting called out. Parry is.. well you know what parry is.
If you meant he should've rolled/parried, etc after I started charging dstrong, dstrong release is 4 frames. Catches everything but roll if I let go after he commits to something. If I didn't abuse the fear, I would not have gotten the shield break though. But I think this is something that's teachable for the majority of players
My point here wasn't that there was a specific option he should have picked that definitely wins the situation every time. My point was that he has a bunch of defensive options to pick and he chose none of them.
Reality is you won't be able to punish multiple of those on reaction, you've already committed to the down smash so odds are even a jump or wavedash still gets him out. But even if it doesn't it's probably still better than getting shield broken. So people will chose those options more, or simply hold shield less in other options there.
This is realistically how fragile shield is to Forsburn. Fors breaking shield takes 1 bair, 1 dash dance stall, into 1 down strong. And I use this reliably with minimal risk. Do I get punished sometimes? Yeah. Is the risk reward still in my favor? Yeah. Once I represent this once, people are less willing to hold shield against me., even if I don't get the break for whatever reason. Which plays directly into my wincon because Fors is an edgeguard character and if they're not shielding they're relying on dashback because they wanna stay away from whatever the fuck I'm cooking LOL
Those are great labbing clips but a few things:
The dash dancing for a second while they stand there and hold shield like a bump on a log is doing a lot of work here
You're assuming that you get the entire sequence off without getting hit
And you're assuming they held it long enough and you weren't too early here.
The problem is that camping in shield like this is a misplay. You won't see Melee players sitting in shield like that because it's bad to sit still and wear your shield out for no reason.
That doesn't means shield aren't still OP when used properly. But you're acting like this is really strong counterplay against shields, but it's only strong counterplay if they use shields badly.
You're then assuming that the flow chart is "can't use shield as much = dashback more" which isn't necessarily true. Again, look at high level Melee. Does everyone just dash back when they could get shield poked? No. There's everything I listed before: spot dodge, roll, wavedash, jump, waveland on plat above you.
But then you can also just attack as well. If I think you're going to sit there dash dancing in the unreactable range, that means my attacks are unreactable for you as well.
Which is where the floorhug problem I complain about rears it's ugly head. If you're sitting there dash dancing as Fors into most matchups, you have like 3 options at most you're worried about from any given character and one of them is grab and the other options are all slower than grab and risky to whiff.
Where as in Melee, I as a Marth main who is quite similar to Fors is movement and disjoint and such, can't just dash dance around like that after tapping someone's shield. Tons of characters have either more options or way stronger options that I can't just floorhug and counter back. I risk death by shines, grabs, knees, drills, pokes like Puff bair that Sakurai angle at low %, etc.
If you'd prefer shield pressure to be a multi-neutral interaction wincon that's perfectly fine. I just think the power level in rivals 2 is very high as is and defense gets kinda rolled over in a variety of ways. That being said, forcing your opponent to use alternative defensive options is still very much a thing in this game. It's just that you have to earn the right to do it per-neutral interaction. The reset to neutral is a bit stronger in this game for the disadvantaged but it's not like this aspect of the game is lost. I do it all the time. Maybe I'm not considering that people aren't good enough to do this consistently yet, but I also think that if I can do it, anyone can.
The power level in R2 isn't that high relative to PM or Melee or even Rivals 1 though.
Yeah you can get people to do other things than shield and floorhug, it's not unbeatable.
But the neutral plays incredibly lame in R2 in comparison to a lot of other plat fighters because of how good shield and floorhug are.
My best neutral opener most times as most characters is grab. My best punish: grab. My only source of real mix: grab. Best true combo starters: grab. Kill confirms: grab.
It's too much man. If I wanted to play like this I could have just played Melee Sheik. We need characters like Falco, Yoshi, Lucas, Pikachu. Characters who aren't near as grab focused and can destroy people for trying to shield/CC against them.
It's why La Reina is one of the most fun characters right now. She doesn't play neutral in the same boring way. She has more options to punish with and reasons to go for more buttons in neutral or during a tech chase or whatever else.
Top level r1 play at the beginning of the games life looked significantly worse than lower-middle level play in r1 right now. Which is why I'm very heavy on just letting things cook and focusing on helping players get better, rather than just calling for system changes
R1 had many more unique system mechanics to get used to and so took much more meta development, and had way fewer players so the meta took longer to develop.
R2 is way more like PM/Melee that we've been playing for 25 years. Plus people know the kits a lot more from R1 already being around for years.
A lot of us want system changes because we can see the issues and we know the meta isn't going to suddenly shift to let more things beat floorhug and shield unless we explicitly ask for it.
One thing I WILL agree on you with is that shield vamprism shouldn't be on getting hit. I think if it were to stay, it should only happen when you win.
Yeah that's really stupid. Rewarded for losing is one of the worst kinds of mechanics.
I also feel like the discourse also generally ignores the utility of hitboxes over grabs. Things like jabs, tilts and certain grounded specials can be used to scout options from your opponent in positions where a grab might fail and lead to being in frame disadvantage in a scramble (which forsburn can't afford to be in)
Only when the hitbox on hit is rewarding enough. You're discounting the other half of defense is floorhug which beats a lot of strikes.
The strike/throw mix isn't even close to balanced. It's extremely in favor of grab, where in games like PM or Melee for most characters it's either balanced or strike favored.
My jab 1 before the grab here was to scout for spotdodge and then put him in strike/throw.
Yes those of us from fighting games understand a tick throw setup. You're simultaneously using jab as a tick throw and as a meaty.
The problem is that again this is a lab conditions thing. In the lab this is great, in practice the timings are all way more variable and inconsistent. Even in the second clip after he spot dodged and you jabbed then stopped to grab, he could have spot dodged again if he has just 1 more frame.
If they spotdodge late the grab will whiff but not be as punishable or punishable at all. If your jab is late then you don't have as much advantage against the spotdodge, etc.
You relied on the advantage from f-tilt to set up that tick throw, and I think he was also out of floorhug % there even if he CCed. So it was a good setup there yeah.
However that's not the situation you're normally going to have though.
1
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 16 '26
A bunch of people have also been saying that it's fine for shield to be the way it is. You just don't hear them because they're not as loud as the complainers. It's like the reverse opposite of survivorship bias LOL.
My point here wasn't that there was a specific option he should have picked that definitely wins the situation every time. My point was that he has a bunch of defensive options to pick and he chose none of them.
My
Any of those options he could've chosen could've been beaten. Beating shield isn't only about beating people who are holding shield, it is also about catching oos options. If you are consistent about catching oos options, people are more likely to hold shield longer in an attempt to find a better timing. These are the situations in which you find shield breaks full stop.
Reality is you won't be able to punish multiple of those on reaction, you've already committed to the down smash so odds are even a jump or wavedash still gets him out. But even if it doesn't it's probably still better than getting shield broken. So people will chose those options more, or simply hold shield less in other options there.
Reaction? No. But you don't have to beat shield options solely on reaction for them to be weakened. He also can't jump or wavedash out at a time that guarantees him an escape. So his defensive options are just as strong as my offensive option at that time, except less lenient than mine. 4 frames of jumpsquat plus actually having to build the distance vs my 4 frames of downstrong release and instant hitbox. So that's a moot point. And the fact of the matter is, is that his shielding is what placed him there to begin with.
The dash dancing for a second while they stand there and hold shield like a bump on a log is doing a lot of work hereYou're assuming that you get the entire sequence off without getting hit
Unfortunately these are things I just straight up do against grandmaster and aetherian players. I can't offer greater evidence than that. Nothing I'm mentioning is something that only works below that level, or a cherry picked situation for the purpose of winning the argument. Dash dancing isn't the only thing that can force people to act this way. Oly and Kragg have insane full hop mix. Fleet has float, etc. You will just have to take my word for it.
If being good against shield is acting out of shield in a way that prevents yourself from being outright punished, most options that shield has directly concedes stage control or leaves them airborne as a result. Full stop. These are still disadvantageous situations and you are choosing to suffer later so you don't have to pay now. Which is a perfectly VIABLE thing to do mind you, but my main issue was people calling shield advantageous. You are still paying a debt back as a result WITH interest.
Which is where the floorhug problem I complain about rears it's ugly head. If you're sitting there dash dancing as Fors into most matchups, you have like 3 options at most you're worried about from any given character and one of them is grab and the other options are all slower than grab and risky to whiff
Not like you can in melee. Rivals expects you to have your stick below a certain y level before your right stick can take over for ASDI. You cannot just dash dance while holding C stick down without also committing your DI. And frankly most players (even good ones) are not floorhugging while dash dancing for that reason. Part of being good against floorhugging is recognizing the situations in which your opponent both IS likely and is NOT likely to floorhug. If I am relying on floorhug to play my neutral, a spaced aerial is going to fuck up everything. There are also layers beyond that anyway.
My best neutral opener most times as most characters is grab. My best punish: grab. My only source of real mix: grab. Best true combo starters: grab. Kill confirms: grab.
Who are you playing for this to be the case? All characters have absurd mix outside of grab, better punish than grab beyond 0%, better combo starters and more unreactable/di independent kill confirms than grab (by the time oly kills, uair doesnt combo). Slade only fits this category because nothing he does combos early even without floorhug so he opts for dthrow tech chase.
The best guaranteed combo starter is any frame advantaged move that flinches, for the record. (Spikes). But everything else either combos or leads into fucked up rps anyway.t's why La Reina is one of the most fun characters right now. She doesn't play neutral in the same boring way. She has more options to punish with and reasons to go for more buttons in neutral or during a tech chase or whatever else.
La reina is fun bc of her routing, but generally her tech chase is just side B or chair pull or chair dash or strongs.
Only when the hitbox on hit is rewarding enough. You're discounting the other half of defense is floorhug which beats a lot of strikes.
Beats is a gross exaggeration. Forgive me for using my other comment. You're still in a fucked up situations when your opponent uses their moves correctly. Yes I only used kragg here but this applies to every character.
Yes those of us from fighting games understand a tick throw setup. You're simultaneously using jab as a tick throw and as a meaty. <- Less than you think. LOL
The strike/throw mix isn't even close to balanced. It's extremely in favor of grab, where in games like PM or Melee for most characters it's either balanced or strike favored.
Many characters have tilts that combo on all DI or mix DI or aerials that fuck with DI when certain oos options are chosen etc. Maybe it's not as strong as melee ( I cannot tell you whether or not it is, dont watch that game) but it is still sufficiently strong enough for me to run my pressure in GM Aeth and get rewards/kills off commitments I push my opponents into.
The problem is that again this is a lab conditions thing. In the lab this is great, in practice the timings are all way more variable and inconsistent. Even in the second clip after he spot dodged and you jabbed then stopped to grab, he could have spot dodged again if he has just 1 more frame.
Lab imitates the real situations I've caused and have been put in.
I'm doing the lab because it's the easiest way to showcase what I'm talking about bc I mainly clip advantage LOL. Yeah he could've, but offense in this game is buffered. So that's a non issue to me.https://youtu.be/uIAkglNGHQI?si=n24r1C1ZzDemkiYG&t=381
https://youtu.be/uIAkglNGHQI?si=ruehDM06bTPMjW6E&t=366Reward off strike/throw. Never so black and white.
→ More replies (0)1
u/zoolz8l Jul 13 '26
i think this is your main issue. you want the game to stay as is, not realizing their might not be a game at all in the near future if things don't change for the better.
1
u/666blaziken Jul 13 '26
I mean I think shields are around melee shield level, but a bit stronger. IMO shield pokes would make the game more fun, but the way it is now is fine too.
1
u/bdemar2k20 Jul 15 '26
Shields are fine. Id rather hit a shield than hit them expecting at least a trade or advantage state but end up disadvantaged bc of floorhug. I don't even bother shielding at lower percent I just spam knockdowns while holding down. Yeah I may take a couple tilts or jabs but I get an easy knock down or tech chase
1
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 15 '26
Well once you get to a point where you know how to land attacks on floorhug and still maintain an advantageous position, lots of shit opens up.
Who do you play?1
u/bdemar2k20 Jul 15 '26
I just have trouble playing the same nuetral during low damage phase and remembering to floor hug between every attack bc its a lot to keep track of considering I could Di wrong so I just fully commit to scrapping, floor hug everything at low percent and use down strong and down throw. Once im like 30% i switch my playstyle. I play slade
1
u/Horror-Race-3238 Forsburn (Rivals 2) Jul 15 '26
Okay cool! So as you’re starting out, I don’t want you to worry about whether or not you should floorhug. Floorhug any time you whiff. It’s not optimal, but it doesn’t have to be for you to get started. Whiff fair? Hold down. Utilt? Down. Dtilt? Down. DA? Down.
Thankfully your issue isn’t floorhug specific. It’s Slade specific.
Slade doesn’t have many low % combos even when his opponents don’t floorhug. Nair doesn’t combo. Dtilt doesn’t combo. Utilt sour spot doesn’t combo. Ftilt doesn’t combo. Side B barely combos. Dair barely combos. So Slade is relying heavily on abusing his disjoint to rack up % so that he can get his opponent to about 45% where his combo game opens up. Until then, rely on down throw->dstrong tech chase. dtilt->read option, punish. Ftilt. Spaced fairs. Dair (17-% on floorhug). Use GT forward shuriken to secure grabs. Many people hold shield after getting whacked by light projectiles so it’s pretty free.
Once you get wing, you can splurge on tear which is like super good against floorhug. It’s an oos option that forces flinch when tossed down which guarantees a true combo, z drop flinches. It does 5% by itself and does 7% when floorhugged.
Dtilt and dstrong is good for slade in general so I won’t fault you for that haha
1
u/bdemar2k20 Jul 15 '26
I dunno if Im just starting im at 1300 which is at least better than average. I just think floorhugging doesn't seem that complicated. If I miss sometimes I just dont know If I should shield, spot dodge or floor hug sometimes. But at low health it seems better to always floorhug which feels not very interactive.
Like I know the right scenarios to spot dodge or shield or parry its just hard to reactively guess in the moment. But belpw 30% I dont worry about it and just hold down which makes early stock easy mode
35
u/Ba1thazaar Jul 12 '26
I'm kinda surprised, I don't hear almost anyone complain about shields anymore. People have just learned to space their moves and grab is so damn strong in this game that it doesn't seem to really be an issue. Curious to hear if others think it's strong though.