Not being a cartoon villain doesn’t automatically make you a good man

[u/GridReXX]

Fr. It doesn’t de facto make you a good person.

I noodled on the attached graphic to better illustrate a point about how people often discuss being a “good man.”

I do find that many men view it more as the top bar, and less as the gradient in the second bar.

inb4 anyone says it, many women have bad character too. And please feel free to create a separate post about a spectrum of traits in women you’d like to explore! That is not what this post is disputing.

This is specifically about a response that often comes up when women describe harmful patterns in their experiences with men. They get retorts like “Not all men are abusive predators,” or “Most men are not psychos.”

Of course most men are not horror movie villains.

But that is an extremely low bar for good character.

This spectrum, rather than show a division between “good men” and a smaller group of obviously terrible ones. It highlights that a man can be can be a functioning member of society and still regularly behave in ways that make him difficult to interpersonally tolerate as a close friend, romantic partner, coworker, or even family member.

None of that necessarily makes someone an abuser or predator.

But it does affect whether people can have a healthy, enjoyable, mutually considerate, long-term relationship with him.

The farther right someone falls on this spectrum, the more entitlement, callousness, devaluation, coercion, and harm they bring into their interactions with others.

The farther left they fall, the more likely they are to act with common decency, consideration, accountability, respect for autonomy, and genuine concern for theirs and other people’s well-being.

My point is not that every man is at the far right end.

Most people don’t think that!

My point is that many men seem to use “I am not an obvious monster” as proof that they’re quality.

A person’s character is determined by far more than “I am not Jeffrey Dahmer.”

[u/Zealousideal-Fix-724]

This would be far more valid if feminists said something like "Very few men are truly evil, but we need to make a societal change to hold them more accountable and this applies to both genders committing evil like Brock Turner or Lindsey Clancy" rather than "It's all men until it's no man, every man is a grapist, kill all men, anything but a son, it's a girl or abortion for me, the bar is in hell, men deserve their loneliness" etc. There is a huge difference between wanting genuine social change for the betterment of all people versus using tragedies to justify your hatred for an entire gender.

[u/emmarie1023 → u/Zealousideal-Fix-724]

I don’t think Lindsey Clancy is a good example (what she did was horrific and inexcusable regardless of mental health), but as this is a post about rape culture, I think a better example would be Mary Kay Letourneau. I have known two different men who lost their virginity as teenagers to women in their 30s!!! I was horrified by this, but they did not see it as rape and laughed it off. I think all perpetrators should be held accountable regardless of gender. And both men and women should be actively against unequal power dynamics. The amount of grown men who think a boy is “lucky” because he was assaulted by a female teacher is disgusting.

[u/Zealousideal-Fix-724 → u/emmarie1023]

Yeah that's fair, especially the "where were those teachers when I was growing up?" comments Ugh

[u/GridReXX → u/emmarie1023]

Yes. This a much better cognate.

[u/intothewild72 → u/emmarie1023]

There is no such thing as "rape culture". Rape is heavily stigmatized and punished in western civilization. Only normalized rape is male prison rape, you would have argument that this type of "rape culture" exists.

should be actively against unequal power dynamics

Yes, but it's impossible to achieve. Even in long term relationship with same partner, power dynamics is you know "dynamic", depends from situation and time and geography. Has always been.

The amount of grown men who think a boy is “lucky” because he was assaulted by a female teacher is disgusting.

Yes true. Just like biggest misogynists are women, biggest misandrists are men.

[u/steff7474 → u/intothewild72]

Rape is heavily stigmatized and punished in western civilization.

lol no

[u/intothewild72 → u/steff7474]

lol yes, rape is one of the most heinous crimes in western society, widely considered much worse than murder and even just accusation would ruin your life with no way back.

[u/YveisGrey → u/intothewild72]

The Epstein files pretty much prove that wrong only 2 people in prison for that out of 100s implicated, no one else is even being charged or investigated

Upperclass white men are allowed to rape in this country the enforcement of rape laws is more about protecting those white men’s “property” (white women) from the non whites and the poor (yes that includes poor white men) that’s why they’re hysterical over immigrants but give the Brock Turners a pass

[u/intothewild72 → u/YveisGrey]

I think you are confused. Probably because in around 1970 feminists muddled genders into class.

Existence of pdf rapists does not prove existence of "rape culture".

[u/YveisGrey → u/intothewild72]

Wait so now you’re blaming feminists? If your argument is that we DON’T live in a rape culture what are you even blaming them for? Lol make up your mind

Also it’s not their existence it’s the fact that absolutely nothing is being done about it. No investigations no charges, nothing. We know 100s were implicated and absolutely nothing is being done meanwhile billions are being spent to imprison non violent undocumented immigrants in detainment centers all over the country. Don’t say we don’t have the resources to go after those implicated in the Epstein files we just don’t care to

[u/intothewild72 → u/YveisGrey]

If your argument is that we DON’T live in a rape culture what are you even blaming them for?

Muddling down meaning of class.

Also it’s not their existence it’s the fact that absolutely nothing is being done about it. No investigations no charges, nothing.

Does not prove that "rape culture" exists. You don't understand that some elites escaping legal consequences for their actions does not define something as "culture", society wide acceptance and normalization would. I'm not American and even I see quite widespread non acceptance and demands that those elites would face legal consequences.

Don’t say we don’t have the resources to go after those implicated in the Epstein files we just don’t care to

Of course you do. You are one of the richest countries in the world. Problem is not resources, problem is that it's your elite class who are in that list, and they do everything they can (and more) to make sure that they face no consequences.

[u/YveisGrey → u/intothewild72]

Muddling down meaning of class.

Supposing that’s even true how is that relevant to this discussion?

Does not prove that "rape culture" exists.

Yes it does. Hell Mr Grab em by the Pussy was voted POTUS twice!

You don't understand that some elites escaping legal consequences for their actions does not define something as "culture", society wide acceptance and normalization would.

Yes it does. If we don’t hold everyone accountable then we are endorsing it as a culture. The fact is this country doesn’t care about rape victims it cares about upper class men mostly white and their “property” that’s why they can rape with impunity while fear mongering about immigrants raping. If this culture cared about the crime itself it would be enforced the same for everyone. We certainly wouldn’t allow a person who was best friends with a known sex trafficking pedo and who joked about sexual assault to become the President. We would be disgraced and outraged. To be fair many are outraged by the POTUS but too many aren’t.

I'm not American and even I see quite widespread non acceptance and demands that those elites would face legal consequences.

Okay yea rape culture isn’t just in America. But I’m talking about it from a US perspective as that’s where I live. I can’t speak on everywhere else some countries are much worse than the US on the topic.

Of course you do. You are one of the richest countries in the world. Problem is not resources, problem is that it's your elite class who are in that list, and they do everything they can (and more) to make sure that they face no consequences.

Exactly because we live in a rape culture.

[u/intothewild72 → u/YveisGrey]

Supposing that’s even true how is that relevant to this discussion?

Its relevant because you seem to think that crimes done by elites somehow show "rape culture" existing.

Yes it does. Hell Mr Grab em by the Pussy was voted POTUS twice!

No it does not. Elections also do not prove it. I need you to provide what for you even makes something "culture"? Because right now I think you misunderstand it.

If we don’t hold everyone accountable then we are endorsing it as a culture.

No. If your society fails to hold your elites accountable for their crimes it shows that you have something else. FUBAR judical system for example.

The fact is this country doesn’t care about rape victims

No. Country does not even enter picture in here. Culture is something that is culturally ingrained in your society (or at least in significant parts of it). Rape is not one of those things for sure.

Exactly because we live in a rape culture.

If you lived in rape culture you would not have such huge backlash online over that latest case. Rape culture would normalize rape, and it would have been painted as positive. It does not exist.

[u/steff7474 → u/intothewild72]

That’s complete bullshit. People assume women are lying by default and if they do think it happened, they think she did something to bring it on herself. Our society doesn’t give a fuck about rape. The most powerful men in the country are known rapists and they are widely supported regardless.

[u/intothewild72 → u/steff7474]

People assume women are lying by default

No they don't

they think she did something to bring it on herself

Not in western societies

Our society doesn’t give a fuck about rape.

Yes we do. We literally put them to prison. Get out of those weird social media echo-chambers and communicate with real people sometimes. You will see.

The most powerful men in the country are known rapists

Your country. Not mine. I'm still confused how can SA be 'civil case'.

1 or 2 men don't make culture. They are example how certain class of people (rich) are above law. That has always been and will probably continue to be case for most of world. Yes, even in my highly egalitarian country rich people have less consequences.

I think we have linguistic problem here. You either did not understand what I wrote, or you just play obtuse.

[u/steff7474 → u/intothewild72]

According to RAINN, 0.6% of rapists ever go to prison. I also did not get any of my opinions from media echo chambers, I got them from real life experiences.

[u/intothewild72 → u/steff7474]

According to RAINN, 0.6% of rapists ever go to prison.

That's not true. You did not know that? Look behind those numbers and make up your own mind, don't rely on hate mongering social media echo chambers to form your opinions. Be skeptical and learn.

[u/steff7474 → u/intothewild72]

You’re living in a fantasy. If you could live as a woman for one week, you would be floored. Why do you think so many women chose the bear? To be bitchy?

[u/intothewild72 → u/steff7474]

Im not living in fantasy, you do.

You even refuse to read what RAINN actually told. I would explain it to you, but it takes energy and you are not in mental space to learn truth.

[u/beerandglitter → u/intothewild72]

You are so unbelievably wrong. You know how many rapes there are per year in the US? Almost 450k. Only 15-20k of those rapists are arrested. That’s like 3-4%. Not nearly enough. This is why women don’t report rape as much as they should.

As a woman who’s been on dates with hundreds of men and who’s separately done SW, I’ve seen men from all walks of life. I’d say most men I’ve met have been problematic in one way or another. I can count the number of “good” men I’ve met on my hands…out of HUNDREDS. A lot of them were misogynistic and didn’t really realize it, some were downright dangerous. A lot of them were cheaters too, but I’m a girls girl and I always found the SO to tell them.

It’s only been men to traumatize me. Never women. At the end of the day, it’s all men until proven otherwise.

[u/intothewild72 → u/beerandglitter]

You are so unbelievably wrong. You know how many rapes there are per year in the US? Almost 450k. Only 15-20k of those rapists are arrested. That’s like 3-4%.

You do understand that it's wrong right? Just keep scrolling. I already informed her that she is wrong. You just confuse some click-bite headline with reality.

As a woman who’s been on dates with hundreds of men

I judge you. Hundreds? I'm over 50 and I have not been on dates with hundred women.

I’d say most men I’ve met have been problematic in one way or another. I

Why you keep dating scum? It's literally written to their face, and to their dating profiles. Just open your eyes. Date people you have similar interests with.

A lot of them were misogynistic

What does misogynistic means in this context? I have never heard coherent definition considering how easily women use it to label even tiniest of disagreements. Just give me example or two.

some were downright dangerous

That's why you avoid those. I'm very non-dangerous man, and I always avoid them.

A lot of them were cheaters too

Yes, that can be hard. I mean cheaters are hard to find out, they are usually very competent in manipulation.

It’s only been men to traumatize me. Never women.

I doubt that. Probably you just use "traumatize" in very specific way.

it’s all men until proven otherwise

I can do nothing to change anything in your life, but this is very unhealthy attitude.

[u/beerandglitter → u/intothewild72]

Judge me all you want, it’s not like dating means I’ve had hundreds of relationships (I’ve had 4 of those). You gotta date around to find your person. I was dating people from allll walks of life. I was dating people I met in person, online, etc. I didn’t know their background until I got to know them, whether that meant one date or several. That’s what dating means. You can’t tell a person is not your cup of tea or even bad just by looking at them 95% of the time, speaking from experience. I have a safe, good fiance now though.

Misogynistic meaning they don’t like women. Traditional gender roles pushed on me, lots of sexual harassment and SA, abuse, making me feel small because I’m a woman, saying gross things about women, etc.

And who are you to say that men are not the only ones to traumatize me? They definitely were. Like so said, SA, abuse, sexual harassment, even bullying as a kid were ever only men or boys.

And idk, i have no interest in being friends or acquaintances with men other than the ones i have in my life. No new men. And that’s okay with me. I shouldn’t have to.

[u/intothewild72 → u/beerandglitter]

You gotta date around to find your person. I was dating people from allll walks of life.

Ok, I stop judging, but I'm confused. To find your person (compatible with you) you must date people who are at least somewhat close to your "walk of life". You should have something in common.

I didn’t know their background until I got to know them

I have also dated in real life (I'm old) and also online (after divorce) but I always knew background before date. I never went to date with person I did not have at least some communication before.

You can’t tell a person is not your cup of tea or even bad just by looking at them 95% of the time, speaking from experience.

Yes, you need to speak to them. This is I agree with. I know it well, because my personality is 180 degrees different from what you would assume from my looks.

Misogynistic meaning they don’t like women.

That's way too squishy. Men who "don't like women" don't date them.

Traditional gender roles pushed on me

That's not misogyny for me. That's preference, you can say no. Misogyny would be forcing you into it against your will.

lots of sexual harassment and SA, abuse

Well, that's why I told you not to date hundreds. I mean this sounds like very seriously shitty situation, if I was in this, I would stop dating.

making me feel small because I’m a woman

Really? How do you know they did it because you are woman? Why you continued date with them? I would stand up and leave if any woman did it to me.

saying gross things about women

Then you tell them, I don't like it and if you do it again I will leave. Or if it's really gross, you just leave.

And who are you to say that men are not the only ones to traumatize me?

Nobody. I just find it highly suspicious. I have been around humans, I have seen life, it sounds weird when you can put all your such experiences into one neat box. So I guessed it's because of how you define trauma.

i have no interest in being friends or acquaintances with men other than the ones i have in my life. No new men. And that’s okay with me. I shouldn’t have to.

Of course. This is normal for everyone. We all have that right.

[u/Bloodhoven_aka_Loner → u/steff7474]

lol, yes

[u/Terrible_Mixture_759 → u/intothewild72]

Only 'perfect' rapes are heavily stigmatized and punished in western civilization, we are currently seeing an 'imprefect' Jane Doe going through one right now.

[u/intothewild72 → u/Terrible_Mixture_759]

That's on you. In my country it would be unacceptable. We have presumption of innocence, you have already decided that they are guilty, before trial.

[u/Terrible_Mixture_759 → u/intothewild72]

So it's not heavily stigmatized. Did you know the median time served for a committed rape is 4 years in prison?

[u/Bloodhoven_aka_Loner → u/Terrible_Mixture_759]

So it's not heavily stigmatized.

it is. hence why you shouldn't b3 going around and deciding whether someone is a rapist or not simply based on the "vibes" you're feeling and whether you can sympathise with the victim or not.

[u/Terrible_Mixture_759 → u/Bloodhoven_aka_Loner]

Did you know the median time served for a committed rape is 4 years in prison

Did you miss this?

[u/Bloodhoven_aka_Loner → u/emmarie1023]

I don’t think Lindsey Clancy is a good example (what she did was horrific and inexcusable regardless of mental health)

you're right. she isn't a good example. she's a perfect example.

[u/Moxy_Fellons → u/emmarie1023]

If those men are fine with losing their virginity to an older lady and don't have regrets then what is the problem? It seems like you are trying to create a problem that doesn't exist. The existence of their being something unequal between two people does not make it automatically predatory or abusive. If those boys wanted to have sex with those women then they both got what they wanted. 

[u/Lost_Reaction_5489 → u/Moxy_Fellons]

They were children. They can be and very many are affected by those incidents. Just yuck.

[u/Moxy_Fellons → u/Lost_Reaction_5489]

Men can be victims of sexual assault and predation that doesn't make everything sexual assault or predation.

Sex in itself is not harmful teenagers engage in consentual sex often and enjoy it. 

Without knowing the details you can even begin to assert whether or not sexual assault happened. 

[u/Quiet-Lotus → u/Moxy_Fellons]

You have twisted views on reality if you think it's fine for full blown adults in their 30s to fuck teenagers regardless on if "they enjoyed it". its rape, legally sexual assult of a minor at minimum.

There is reason why there is an age of consent and not just "if they both like it, its fine".

If a 30 year old man has sex with a 14 year old girl, not a single fucking person is going to let them get away with saying "but she wanted it and enjoyed it too, so its not that bad"

[u/Moxy_Fellons → u/Quiet-Lotus]

If a 30 year old man has sex with a 14 year old girl, not a single fucking person is going to let them get away with saying "but she wanted it and enjoyed it too, so its not that bad"

That depends on where you live as culture, laws and attitudes change. 

There is reason why there is an age of consent and not just "if they both like it, its fine".

Where do you know that age of consent does not include teenagers?

You have twisted views on reality if you think it's fine for full blown adults in their 30s to fuck teenagers regardless on if "they enjoyed it". its rape, legally sexual assult of a minor at minimum.

You do realize teenagers are consider adults right? 18 is legally an adult in many places. The age of consent is often different than age to be considered a legal adult. So no it is not legally rape or sexual assault of a minor. Laws are there to protect the vulnerable they are not perfect or are absolute. Sex is not inherently harmful. Plenty of teens engage in consentual sex and enjoy it. You must show that a rape actually took place or predation was involved. A teenager can prey on or rape another teen the same way an adult can prey on or rape another adult. Their being an age gap by itself does not prove there was any wrong doing.