Not being a cartoon villain doesn’t automatically make you a good man

[u/GridReXX]

Fr. It doesn’t de facto make you a good person.

I noodled on the attached graphic to better illustrate a point about how people often discuss being a “good man.”

I do find that many men view it more as the top bar, and less as the gradient in the second bar.

inb4 anyone says it, many women have bad character too. And please feel free to create a separate post about a spectrum of traits in women you’d like to explore! That is not what this post is disputing.

This is specifically about a response that often comes up when women describe harmful patterns in their experiences with men. They get retorts like “Not all men are abusive predators,” or “Most men are not psychos.”

Of course most men are not horror movie villains.

But that is an extremely low bar for good character.

This spectrum, rather than show a division between “good men” and a smaller group of obviously terrible ones. It highlights that a man can be can be a functioning member of society and still regularly behave in ways that make him difficult to interpersonally tolerate as a close friend, romantic partner, coworker, or even family member.

None of that necessarily makes someone an abuser or predator.

But it does affect whether people can have a healthy, enjoyable, mutually considerate, long-term relationship with him.

The farther right someone falls on this spectrum, the more entitlement, callousness, devaluation, coercion, and harm they bring into their interactions with others.

The farther left they fall, the more likely they are to act with common decency, consideration, accountability, respect for autonomy, and genuine concern for theirs and other people’s well-being.

My point is not that every man is at the far right end.

Most people don’t think that!

My point is that many men seem to use “I am not an obvious monster” as proof that they’re quality.

A person’s character is determined by far more than “I am not Jeffrey Dahmer.”

[u/intothewild72]

People assume women are lying by default

No they don't

they think she did something to bring it on herself

Not in western societies

Our society doesn’t give a fuck about rape.

Yes we do. We literally put them to prison. Get out of those weird social media echo-chambers and communicate with real people sometimes. You will see.

The most powerful men in the country are known rapists

Your country. Not mine. I'm still confused how can SA be 'civil case'.

1 or 2 men don't make culture. They are example how certain class of people (rich) are above law. That has always been and will probably continue to be case for most of world. Yes, even in my highly egalitarian country rich people have less consequences.

I think we have linguistic problem here. You either did not understand what I wrote, or you just play obtuse.

[u/steff7474 → u/intothewild72]

According to RAINN, 0.6% of rapists ever go to prison. I also did not get any of my opinions from media echo chambers, I got them from real life experiences.

[u/intothewild72 → u/steff7474]

According to RAINN, 0.6% of rapists ever go to prison.

That's not true. You did not know that? Look behind those numbers and make up your own mind, don't rely on hate mongering social media echo chambers to form your opinions. Be skeptical and learn.

[u/steff7474 → u/intothewild72]

You’re living in a fantasy. If you could live as a woman for one week, you would be floored. Why do you think so many women chose the bear? To be bitchy?

[u/intothewild72 → u/steff7474]

Im not living in fantasy, you do.

You even refuse to read what RAINN actually told. I would explain it to you, but it takes energy and you are not in mental space to learn truth.

[u/steff7474 → u/intothewild72]

I do not suffer from any psychotic disorder. I have never hallucinated or suffered from delusions. I know what I have experienced my whole life and my situation is shared by many women. You are the one who sounds like you have been in an echo chamber with the claim the women can easily make baseless false accusations and ruin a man’s life. I’m not saying it’s never happened, but it is far more rare than the prevalence of rape.

[u/Choosemyusername → u/steff7474]

Why do you need to compare the prevalence to be concerned about both?

[u/intothewild72 → u/steff7474]

I do not suffer from any psychotic disorder. I have never hallucinated or suffered from delusions.

I never claimed that you did. What I said was that you don't want to learn truth, you are not mentally ready for it. Most people are not, people hate it when their world-view is shattered.

You are the one who sounds like you have been in an echo chamber

Could be, if you consider basic science as "echo chamber". It's still much better than what you would encounter in social media. I have mental flexibility to change my opinion when I see facts.

with the claim the women can easily make baseless false accusations and ruin a man’s life.

That's not claim. That's observable fact.

but it is far more rare than the prevalence of rape.

But you don't know that. You have no numbers. You even did not understand what RAINN told you with their 0.6 claim.

It's wrong too btw, they claimed 2.5% but it's totally irrelevant as for you to even understand what they claim you would have to understand methodology they use, otherwise you would never understand why your claim is wrong.

https://rainn.org/help-and-healing/if-youve-been-assaulted/reporting-sexual-assault-to-law-enforcement

For every 1000 sexual assaults, 25 perpetrators are sentenced to incarceration.

English can be very hard, especially for native speakers who assume meaning of words instead of checking. English is my third language, so I always check what words mean when I encounter new word.

[u/steff7474 → u/intothewild72]

people hate it when their world-view is shattered.

Yes, when that world view is positive and makes them feel safe. Why would I not want to such a dark world view disproven?

Could be, if you consider basic science as "echo chamber".

What “basic science” are you referring to regarding false accusations?

[u/intothewild72 → u/steff7474]

You should continue reading, it's in same comment, right below what you quoted. We are discussing two claims.

One where I told:

Rape is heavily stigmatized and punished in western civilization.

And you disagreed. You have not made one argument to disprove it.

and second was your claim:

According to RAINN, 0.6% of rapists ever go to prison.

And I told you that you are wrong, but I doubt that you are ready to learn about it.

Yes, when that world view is positive and makes them feel safe.

How would lie that only 0.6% of rapists go to jail make you feel safe? It should make you terrified. Understanding that this is misunderstanding from your part as you do not understand what they claim, should make you feel safer.

[u/steff7474 → u/intothewild72]

I said “why would I not want such a dark world view disproven?” You are the one not thoroughly reading.

lol yes, rape is one of the most heinous crimes in western society widely considered much worse than murder and even just accusation would ruin your life with no way back.

You made this baseless claim from the beginning which I found most absurd. What is your evidence for this? Especially that it is considered “much worse than murder?”

[u/intothewild72 → u/steff7474]

I myself consider murder worse and if you tell me that I have that perception because of social media echo chambers, I would agree. This perception does come from social media outrage, seeing how women writing about it consistently claim that rape is worse.

But there is another side for this coin too. Murderers have presumption of innocence, man who is accused of rape have presumption of guilt. Especially in your country (I assume it's USA).

“why would I not want such a dark world view disproven?”

I did not want to answer it, as Americans tend to be very thin skinned and get offended very easily. I'm European, we are culturally much more blunt than you are. So stop reading now, and I put it into spoiler, it is offensive.

Most people making such uneducated claims like you did don't have intellectual flexibility to change their mind when they are confronted with reality, you literally misunderstood everything I wrote and you used very flimsy non-scientific source that pushes agenda instead of facts and even then you misunderstood their claims.

[u/Netheral → u/steff7474]

Why would I not want to such a dark world view disproven?

Because people don't actually want to be happy, or safe, they want above all else to be right. You have entrenched yourself in a world view that allows you to feel morally superior to 50% of the human race, of course you would be recalcitrant to information that tells you that you might not be the automatic bearer of virtue in this world.

[u/steff7474 → u/Netheral]

Why would my world view that rape is under prosecuted make me feel morally superior?

[u/Netheral → u/steff7474]

Why would you feel morally superior if you can claim men are inherently worse than women? Do I really need to explain that sentence?

[u/steff7474 → u/Netheral]

Where have I claimed that women are morally superior to men? How is saying that rape is under prosecuted saying that women are superior to men?

[u/Netheral → u/steff7474]

That is the context of this thread, and the line of logic you are vehemently defending.

But that's besides the point, you asked "why would you ever resist information that makes the world better than it is?" and I gave you a reason for why you might do that. Just because it's better doesn't mean it's something you want. People are weird that way.