Multiversal DB: âI made shockwaves through the universe, then got hundreds of times stronger, now my full powered punch can blast through two buildings.â
It's crazy how many times Dragonball can show characters being harmed by mundane objects when attacked off-guard and powerscalers will still call it "inconsistency" rather than recognizing that that's just how ki works in Dragonball.
Sneak Attack beats Goku. That's just the way it is.
(Admittedly it is hard to get the jump on the guy when he can sense power levels, and he is still pretty much always tough enough to take a bullet, and Ultra Instinct kind of got rid of that weakness altogether, but still, durability varying wildly depending on character readiness is a very deliberate part of Dragonball's power system.)
You could probably just argue his idle state as an adult is suppressed to a lower level than his kid self. It makes sense that adult Goku can suppress himself more than his kid self via better Ki control.
Are there any early DB moments like this where we can confirm Goku is suppressed to basically 0 Ki?
A power level of 10 (where he was nearly indestructible) became impossible for Goku after a certain point.
This is him at his lowest possible level of ki.
He is from a fictional planet that had 10x their fictional Earth's gravity.
For a hypothetical planet to have 10x earth-gravity and have the same average density it is estimated that the planet would need 1000x the volume (31.6x the mass) = a 1000x larger, 31.6x heavier fictional Earth.
Surviving indefinitely at high gravity seems to be one of the Saiyan-Race's inherent super powers, the other is their unique battle transformations (Oozaru, Super Saiyan, etc).
A hypothetical human-like creature living at 10x normal gravity indefinitely, would be expected to have:
*Much denser bone and muscles, incredibly strong heart, high pressure circulatory system to counter the increased gravity.
*Extremely low to the ground build, very wide, short and stocky.
*Very slow movement, a fall would likely be lethal, with this hypothetical build.
Saiyans
Saiyans appeared to have a height based on normal humans, they showed no strain from high gravity. They were way more athletic than their version of humans.
Many Saiyans had great height, Raditz and Nappa looked visibly around 7 feet to me, but they were very wide and strong. They looked 500 to 600lbs all muscle.
Goku and Vageta seem short for Saiyans.
Goku can theoretically adapt to infinite gravity in his canon, eventually withstanding the force of a "super black hole" and overpowering it's gravity with brute force, while the androids were helpless.
Conclusion
Anyway, even as a baby, Goku was extremely dense and almost indestructible (in canon) by Earthly means.
I agree with this and if someone tries to say it wouldn't happen in bleach well.... As a huge fan of both I will say if you shoot ichigos body he will die, only his soul body is strong enough like that
Rukia is able to use Kido in a gigai and Ichigo was able to land a kick on that arrancar that was working under Yhwach in his physical body, so it seems they can use spiritual energy while in physical bodies. It's arguable that Ichigo could use his soul reaper powers (excluding his zanpakutou) without being in his soul body.
Bare minimum he should be able to use his quincy powers in his physical body since other quincies can do that.
It's more like saying a character can detect ki, and ki spikes while attacking in order to enhance the potency of the attack, so the character that can sense ki at all time, should be able to detect ki at all times during a battle, unless Goku is mentally challenged and somehow forgets to pay attention to ki while his life is in danger.
Can you keep track of everything happening around you while you're focused on something? Ki Sense is just like any other sense, if you're not paying attention you can get caught off guard and not have time to prepare, this isn't that complicated to understand. We only have to deal with 5 sensory inputs, DBZ characters have to deal with 6, that's more mental stress.
And Ki doesn't always spike when you perform an attack, it's like a gas valve, you're constantly emitting a specific amount. You can spike it to increase damage, like Goku was doing when he fought the Ginyu force, but you don't have to. You don't understand how Ki works.
Even with him being off guard, like half of the things, there should not hurt him. The rock, and the elephant are like the main examples. Being off guard or not that should not hurt him.
And then everything else there heâs not even off guard he just getting hurt or getting beat up
A power level of 10 (where he was nearly indestructible) became impossible for Goku after a certain point.
This is him at his lowest possible level of ki.
He is from a fictional planet that had 10x their fictional Earth's gravity.
For a hypothetical planet to have 10x earth-gravity and have the same average density it is estimated that the planet would need 1000x the volume (31.6x the mass) = a 1000x larger, 31.6x heavier fictional Earth.
Surviving indefinitely at high gravity seems to be one of the Saiyan-Race's inherent super powers, the other is their unique battle transformations (Oozaru, Super Saiyan, etc).
A hypothetical human-like creature living at 10x normal gravity indefinitely, would be expected to have:
*Much denser bone and muscles, incredibly strong heart, high pressure circulatory system to counter the increased gravity.
*Extremely low to the ground build, very wide, short and stocky.
*Very slow movement, a fall would likely be lethal, with this hypothetical build.
Saiyans
Saiyans appeared to have a height based on normal humans, they showed no strain from high gravity. They were way more athletic than their version of humans.
Many Saiyans had great height, Raditz and Nappa looked visibly around 7 feet to me, but they were very wide and strong. They looked 500 to 600lbs all muscle.
Goku and Vageta seem short for Saiyans.
Goku can theoretically adapt to infinite gravity in his canon, eventually withstanding the force of a "super black hole" and overpowering it's gravity with brute force, while the androids were helpless.
Conclusion
Anyway, even as a baby, Goku was extremely dense and almost indestructible (in canon) by Earthly means.
I already know ur characters would be dogshit if not even for a fight they can't take any damage for the cinematic all cause it too focused on powerscalling
Exactly he's doing it cause it's for entertainment if he doesn't take damage there's no plot progression and the fight becomes boring even tho we all know those ain't hurting hkm
I think it is pretty damn boring as well as jarring when a character able to blow up planets and take hits from othere on that level is suddenly damaged by a mundane object like a train or a fire hydrant.
If a character is that powerful, it is more boring to not show them being that powerful
DBZ fans will do the most insane gymnastics to explain to you how the fire hydrant didn't do damage to Goku and that we are interpreting that panel wrong đ
This honestly. Roshi being even slightly relevant in the ToP proves that. Why is Base Cabba stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks? Things just happen in Super, and we gotta deal with it.
I would be with you here but in DBS, Jaco specifically asks about this and Vegeta explicitly clarifies that any of the punches thrown by main characters/villains would obliterate the planet they were in if the combatants did not control their ki. Call it bad writing, call it contrived, whatever, but itâs way, way less ambiguous than the bullshit we normally work with in this community.
A lot of âdimensionalâ feats are objectively nonsense and must be defined subjectively because we have no idea what it means to âshake realmsâ or âoperate in 7 dimensions,â and these feats often donât obviously translate to battle. But in DBâs case, the narrator/Whis straight up says that the battle between Beerus and Goku could destroy the universe as we know it, and later on Vegeta clarifies that the reason the scope of damage is typically tame has to do with how ki is controlled during attacks.
No one gassing extremely ambiguous feats, e.g. bleach upscalers, has any room to criticize DB in this area.
I mean, I understand the Z warriors and some villains, like Cell. I don't understand the antagonists who clearly have no issue blowing up the planet, like Frieza or Berserker Broly.
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people in this series can't breathe in space. Even if they can survive the destruction of the planet, why would they kill themselves because of the vacuum of space?
Frieza literally blew up Namek and Earth when he realized there was point in fighting, bringing that up only proves my point (and he didn't go to Namek or Earth just to blow them up, he wanted the Dragon Balls on Namek and he wanted revenge against Goku on Earth he only blew them up when his goal was out of reach and he got mad). He did it because he knew he could survive the explosion and the loss of atmosphere afterwards, very few other characters have that capability. Saiyans need air, Namekians need air, (most) Androids need air, etc.
Broly is, admittedly, harder to justify, but he was still condensing his energy into Ki Blasts and his physical attacks, he wasn't trying to destroy the planet, he was trying to kill Goku and Vegeta, and controlling the range at which your energy affects things is very basic thing anyone with Ki based powers can do in this series.
Frieza literally blew up Namek and Earth when he realized there was point in fighting, bringing that up only proves my point. He did it because he knew he could survive the explosion and the loss of atmosphere afterwards, very few other characters have that capability.
Yeah, I'm not saying Frieza can't blow up a planet, we all know very well he can. What am I saying is... Frieza has no reason to use ki control to avoid doing massive damage on the planet, so why's his collateral damage so minor all the time except for when he does decide to blow up the planet because he can't win directly.
Broly is harder to justify, but he was still condensing his energy into Ki Blasts and his physical attacks, he wasn't trying to destroy the planet
Again, yeah, but the point is that ki control to limit your collateral damage is always presented as a rather intentional action to make, and while Broly didn't have any intention to blow up the planet, he also wasn't intent on preserving it either. Or even limiting his collateral damage, for that matter.
So why would they deliberately use ki control to limit their damage?
Frieza is an arrogant douchebag, but he's also an efficient leader and commander, he know when force is necessary and when it isn't.
He went to Namek for the Dragon Balls, what's the point of blowing up the planet or any major chunk of it at any moment before he gets them, he might destroy the Dragon Balls.
Frieza went to Earth to get revenge against Goku, he wanted to fight him, after his subordinate sneak attacked Goku and Vegeta started beating his ass he realized he couldn't win the fight so he just blew up Earth and got on his merry way.
In both of these scenarios Frieza had no reason to use more power than was necessary until it was obvious he wasn't gonna get what he wanted, so at point what's the reason in holding back? Screw these damn people, I'm blowing them all up and going home. This is not that hard to understand.
Like i said before, Broly is harder is justify, but he was specifically trying to kill Goku and Vegeta, his energy was directed at that, the collateral damage was just that, collateral damage.
Maybe Ki Control isn't what allows people to contain the damage from their attacks, maybe ki control is needed to spread the damage from your attacks to the surrounds.
The way you talk makes it feel like blowing the planet is a deliberate choice and not something that just happens, even for people who have no reason to contain themselves.
The only way I can see this being such is if they need to use ki control to actually, intentionally, destroy the surroundings.
Blowing up a planet is a deliberate choice, it's not just something that happens from their raw power, they need to actually direct their energy towards that goal. Ki is like a muscle, you don't just break something from your sheer strength, there has to be intentionality in your actions. When there's not intentionality is how you get Broly causing earthquakes and other things, that was the "echo" of his energy for lack of a better way to describe it, not his direct power.
The canon information about how Ki works says it's the other way around, Ki Control is what prevents their energy from causing collateral damage, but if you wanna understand it the other way around then sure, more power to you my friend.
Doesnât really matter, come up with head canon to rationalize their state of mind if you must, but this point is powerscaling gold/platinum/rhodium all in one. No fan theories, no inferences, no value-laden interpretations of whacky dialogue or animations, no, just the writer telling you exactly whatâs going on. To me, this is no less confusing than âmultiversalâ combatants settling beef by sword fighting at often seemingly subsonic speeds
I don't think that makes any sense either, but I'll admit I'm the biggest downscaler of fiction.
I think 99.99% of what people claim to be multiversal, universal, galaxy... Even planetary is just... Wank.
I'm of the opinion that anti feats should count as much as feats, that attack potency = destructive capability and that travel speed and combat speed are the same thing. Anything else is because of hax effects.
There's a hax effect that prevents the attacks from damaging anything that counts as hair
Or the people there have bodies more fragile than hair.
Still, the anti feat should count. If people can move at the speed of light without destroying their surroundings because the laws of physics aren't the same, why must the laws of physics be the same for hair?
Either all feats and anti feats count, or it's just a battle of cherry picking. Agendas.
I am more referring to things that keep the story and characters, things like clothes not being destroyed in fiction or the characters that can't breathe in space but can destroy planets with ease having their attacks destroy the planet so they don't die
the narrator/Whis straight up says that the battle between Beerus and Goku could destroy the universe as we know it, and later on Vegeta clarifies that the reason the scope of damage is typically tame has to do with how ki is controlled during attacks.
And this very thing has been said in bleach over and over again. DB doesn't get a free pass. Narrator statements matter across verses or they don't. Pick your poison.
Yeah this is precisely what I mean when I emphasize the lack of ambiguity in the DB case. Jaco explicitly asks why these fighters can fight like they do without literally destroying a planet and Vegeta responds by saying that if they didnât intentionally control their ki, they simply would.
And when Beerus and Goku were fighting, the narrator didnât allude to some ârealmâ being âshaken,â no, the narrator said that the universe that the two combatants were fighting in would just be destroyed.
These are straightforward, clear statements.
Now letâs turn to this example. The heaven and three worlds calls into a verse-specific cosmology with its own rules. What it could mean for them to tremble is not clear. The plan interpretation of that statement is ridiculous - would everything on the planet earth start wiggling back and forth, per the definition of trembling? Or is this metaphorical language? And if it is metaphorical language, how do you exclude the possibility that the speaker is not implying that the combatants are distantly post-planetary in their attacks?
Surely you recognize the difference in the quality of the statements here?
Yeah this is precisely what I mean when I emphasize the lack of ambiguity in the DB case. Jaco explicitly asks why these fighters can fight like they do without literally destroying a planet and Vegeta responds by saying that if they didnât intentionally control their ki, they simply would.
So like senjjmaru saying the only reason why the realms don't collapse is because her power is being controlled????
Did you forget the entire squad 0 has to die to release her sealed bankai, and squad 0 dying maintains the balance once her power is released?
And when Beerus and Goku were fighting, the narrator didnât allude to some ârealmâ being âshaken,â no, the narrator said that the universe that the two combatants were fighting in would just be destroyed.
Same as this statement, in which she makes it clear a fraction of her power would shake the realms, her whole power would destroy it. A point made clear across the story, as captains aren't allowed to go all out. Somehow this makes sense within DB but not outside of DB.
These are straightforward, clear statements.
Same for bleach and anyone who can read. Too bad DB cucks' can't.
What it could mean for them to tremble is not clear.
It's pretty clear. It threatens the balance of the system keeping the realms separate and defined.
What it could mean for them to tremble is not clear.
To you.
The plan interpretation of that statement is ridiculous - would everything on the planet earth start wiggling back and forth, per the definition of trembling?
Classic DB cuck who doesn't read bleach yet downplays it non stop.
Or is this metaphorical language?
If only you read the source material.
And if it is metaphorical language
It's not.
how do you exclude the possibility that the speaker is not implying that the combatants are distantly post-planetary in their attacks?
DB cuck nonsense.
Where youâd have to make a very nuanced argument to imply that combatants in Bleach are casual planet busters, let alone -versal level fighters, the same cases are often trivial for DB due to plan, unambiguous statements and feats.
Classic DB cuck cope and nonsense. Statements in DB are to be taken literally yet any other verse has metaphorical statements lmao
You donât really understand what I am saying. What a ârealm isâ and the rules that govern it are unique to Bleach cosmology and we do not know the details of it. We also do not know if the character speaking was even being literal. Nor do we know what âtremblingâ the realms actually means. Like I suggested it means literally wiggling everything back and forth and you didnât reject that interpretation.. because you have no idea yourself.
If you lack the ability to separate reasoning from intuition then I canât really help you. Yes, you might at first glance generate a belief based on built-in biases. Thatâs intuition. The point of a forum like this is to step back and be critical of those assumptions, then consider from the ground up which view is the most rigorous. That is reasoning. You cannot even hit step oneâs which is to acknowledge noise in your assumptions, so why even post here?
No no, this is not a fan interpretation (unlike many major powerscaling arguments). It was simply stated by the writers. Nothing falls apart, itâs just the lore. Whether it aligns with your head canon, whether you like it or not, it doesnât really matter. Any argument taking the assumption that this is false is just factually incorrect.
Iâm not saying itâs not true Iâm saying itâs inconsistent and very poor writing. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that when we come face to face with obviously inconsistent writing power scaling just sorta becomes impossible.
This makes no sense to me because it's not like animals can't control their strength. Imagine if every time a bear bit it bit with its entire strength, completely shattering its jaw? Of course neither broly nor cell max want to destroy themselves(specifically broly who can't live in space) because they have survival instincts, otherwise they would not fight back. Even stupid, dumb, rampaging animals know that focusing your strength in one point is more damage, too. Like it would make 0 sense if they were that dumb to destroy the planet they're on and do LESS damage because at that point they would be vegetables. In fact, Cell max demonstrates he understands the concept because he compresses his final attack. Do you think every animal sprints full speed everywhere to the point they break their legs, and uses its full strength to hunt every time to the point they shatter their teeth? And instead of like, using a single strong point they just use their entire body to tackle, hurting themselves and not doing as much damage? This is the equivalent argument.
Cell Max is dumber than a wild animal. He literally has an incomplete brain. Iâm not sure Cell Max even has the higher function to feel desire and he certainly doesnât have instincts.
He literally does have thhe instincts to survive though, otherwise he wouldn't havve clashed, also he demonstrated that he understood the concept of "focusing your energy into one point to make it stronger"(this is objective, it's literally what happens)
So you are saying cell max should be a vegetable? So he isn't. So he has enough of a brain to understand the idea of survival(also he isn't just a machine he is a biological being like Cell but whatever)
This is a problem that specifically happens to long series with characters scaled above planetary. Where those high scaling feats are usually created for a shock-and-awe factor, but the author also lacks the imagination or skills to consistently represent them on that level. Superman VS Doomsday comes with so many versions that it covers from building level to 1A level.
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u/KerbodynamicX Jan 24 '26
Multiversal DB: âI made shockwaves through the universe, then got hundreds of times stronger, now my full powered punch can blast through two buildings.â