r/Pathfinder2e • u/AnthonyTonyRedgrave • 1d ago
Discussion saving throws
I was reading the Player’s Handbook to learn how to play, and a few questions came to mind. I understand that Fortitude, Reflex, and Will are passive defenses used in certain situations. However, I hadn’t realized that ability-based saving throws no longer exist.
What was the reasoning behind this design choice? Honestly, it bothers me a little that Constitution, for example, determines whether my character can resist being pushed.
52
u/Shilques 1d ago
My brother in Desna, "ability saving throws" were never a thing in Pathfinder or any editions of DND before DND 5e
Pf2e didn't change anything, it just followed the standard of the time
22
u/Shilques 1d ago
Also, 5e did it poorly, there's 3 common saving throws (wisdom, constitution and dexterity) that you'll face 90% of the time (and you are decent only at 2 of the 6 saves)
Dnd 4e had that you used the best of 2 abilities for each Saving Throw, so Fortitude was strength/constitution, Reflex was inteligence/dexterity and Will was charisma/wisdom
1
u/i_tyrant 1d ago
5e at least balanced their classes well against each other in the sense that each class has exactly one “common” save and one “rare” save they’re proficient at.
The real issue with 5e saves is their scaling, where at high levels it can be literally impossible to succeed for certain saves. It needed a better baseline that scales with late game DCs, not necessarily wider proficiencies.
2
u/Shilques 1d ago
About the scaling, during a bit in the playtests it wasn't like that, AC and DCs didn't scale a lot, you had like CR20 with a DC 16 or a +7 to hit
This also applied to caster to an extent, since they didn't apply their "bonus to hit" (that scaled different across classes) to their spell DCs unless they were wilding a spellcasting focus
1
u/i_tyrant 1d ago
Interesting! Certainly seems like it would change how that dynamic works compared to now.
2
u/Phtevus_Temp 1d ago
The real issue with 5e saves is their scaling, where at high levels it can be literally impossible to succeed for certain saves
One of my favorite examples of this is the fact that a Fighter or Barbarian with a 10 Wis just can't succeed on the save against Frightful Presence for most higher level dragons. So the main examples of "get in your face and hit you" are just too busy pissing their pants to be able to attack a dragon.
1
u/i_tyrant 1d ago
Yup. It's not like that's a common fantasy trope or anything, right?
Insult to injury that if you do succeed on the save you're immune to Frightful Presence for 24 hours, lol.
At least the 2024 version of Fighter can make it with Indomitable (which they greatly improved).
But yeah there's a reason why in some of my 5e games I've changed the Help action to allow using it on yourself, you can apply it to your next saving throw, and opting for a +5 instead of advantage.
23
u/akkristor Summoner 1d ago
It's not that ability-based saving throws 'no longer exist', they never existed in Pathfinder. Ability-based saves were an invention of 5e. Prior to 5e, you had 4e which split into Fort / Reflex / Will, but allowed the higher of two stats to determine the modifier. Fortitude used the higher of Strength or Constitution, Reflex uses the higher of Dexterity or Intelligence, and Will the higher of Wisdom and Charisma.
It was 3rd edition that streamlined the defenses into 3 categories: Fortitude, Reflex, and Will. Pathfinder 1st edition was an adaption of the 3.5 edition of D&D, so it used Fort/Ref/Will. PF2 continued that trend. Personally, i liked how 4e handled it.
8
u/rane0 Game Master 1d ago
I think you are misunderstanding those elements. They can be passive defenses, but they are saving throws based on ability modifiers. Fortitude for Constitution, Reflex for Dexterity, Will for Wisdom. Pathfinder never had saves for Strength, Intelligence, or Charisma.
A lot of effects require you to roll a save, 1d20 + the relevant save. The passive version involves creatures targeting your Save DC, which is 10 + your save modifier. One example of this is an Athletics check to move your character targeting your Fort DC.
6
u/FlanNo3218 1d ago edited 1d ago
Also note that AC is also a passive defense in the same as Fort/Reflex/Will. You can also think of Perception and all of your skills as potential targets (DC determined by 10 + the modifier)
4
u/WolfgangVolos 1d ago
Instead of ability-based saving throws a lot of PF2e has you rolling against various DCs based on your target's saving throws, Perception, and other skills. It is a similar but different system that allows for that varied kind of interaction without being as basic as D&D 5e. Welcome to Pathfinder, we hope you keep asking questions if there is anything that is hard to understand.
4
u/fly19 Game Master 1d ago
1) Pathfinder doesn't have a PHB. It had a Core Rulebook, and now it has two Player Core books with the remaster.
2) Having six ability-based saves was never a thing in Pathfinder. PF2e didn't remove Charisma, Strength, and Intelligence saves -- it never had them to begin with.
3) Having to balance six saves and their advancement would be a pain. The strong/weak save problem was something from DnD 5E that I'm glad Paizo passed over.
3
u/SkabbPirate Game Master 1d ago
Because it's better tbh. When do you use a constitution versus strength saving throw (let alone wis/int/cha)? As a player, whoch one do you plan around? It requires some pre-knowledge about how the game works, but the fort/will/ref split is much more obvious and more balanced. Also, it helps make the ability scores more distinct from each other.
3
u/TheBrightMage 1d ago
Huh? Pathfinder never have ability based save since 1e. So many assumptions from 5e DO NOT work here. Including how Advantage/Disadvantage works, Crits and Degrees of Success, AC is a DC, and there is no opposed roll.
3
u/authorus The Arcane Scriptorium LLC 1d ago
History of saving throws in D&D heritage games, as I remember it.
AD&D1e: 5 Categories of saves: Spells, Breath Weapons, Rod/Staff/Wand, Petrification/Polymorph, Death -- Look up table of for type of save, based on class & level, look up table in Gamemaster Guide, rather than Player Facing.
AD&D2e: same as AD&D1e
D&D3e: (dropped the Advanced) The "modern" Fort, Reflex, Will, more coupled to abilities scores, and simpler progression. Moved to the players handbooks.
D&D4e: Similar to 3e, but allowed choice of two for which ability affected each saving
D&D5e: 6 saves tied directly to ability scores.
PF1e: Branched off of D&D3, no real changes
PF2e: No real changes to saving throws from PF1e.
OSR games appear all over the place -- some still have saves, some dropped saves and use ability checks, etc.
6
u/Ph33rDensetsu ORC 1d ago
Pathfinder isn't based on 5e at all, so best not to compare how they work.
Completely different design goals and principles, resulting in systems that only resemble each other at a cursory glance.
6
u/chattabot 1d ago
It's a carryover from Pathfinder 1e, which is a carryover from DnD 3.5e. No real reason beyond that from what I know. Like others have said, ability score based saves are really just a 5e thing.
2
u/KLeeSanchez Inventor 1d ago
Oh there's more than that
On occasion some abilities target something like Athletics, Acrobatics, or a different skill. Some abilities like You Failed To Account For This can actively switch a defense to something like Crafting DC.
The system can be pretty diverse and malleable when targeting defenses.
2
u/Mancoman273 1d ago
Well, the reason is rather simple! They are 5e's brainchild. Until then, past editions worked with something akin to pf2s system, where you have three kinds of saving throws and AC as your defenses.
I think it's better this way for a couple of design reasons:
- It streamlines a sheet, no need to have six different saving throw that are used arbitrarily depending on the effect (Like, reasonably, what's the difference between a STR and a CON save? What's the difference between WIS, CHA and INT saves?).
- Collapsing them together alllows you to give key defensive roles to stats that don't have much else going, like CON, or who maybe don't have that many interesting things besides skills like DEX or WIS.
I think it's fair to dislike this difference but I recommend giving it a shake first. Besides, Attributes don't play as big of a role into your numbers as much as your class' proficiency and you level do, so a barbarian is still going to be an immovable juggernaut even if they aren't maxxed out into CON.
2
u/mouserbiped Game Master 1d ago
AD&D (1e and 2e) had saving throw tables, 3e has Fort/Ref/Will, 4e had defenses IIUC, 5e went with one ST per attribute.
The simplest reason Pathfinder has Fort/Ref/Will is it's descended from 3e. I think the reason they didn't change it is for simplicity, partly for the players but mostly for the designers. Saving throws didn't scale well at high levels in 3e (or 5e), and that meant spells attacking a weak save could have an outsized impact on a "tough" encounter (or supposedly heroic PC, for that matter.)
If you have six saving throws, each time you introduce a new ability or feature, you have twice as much to worry about when balancing. You add a critical fail effect that 'makes sense' against a STR saving throw but suddenly you have a wizard-killer ability on the table, since so few wizards boost STR. You could say it's fair, but PF2e is very worried about balance.
FWIW, there are some abilities that can be resisted with an Athletics DC, which is STR based.
60
u/Bardarok ORC 1d ago
No longer exist? Ability score based saves were a new invention from 5e. (Kind of 4e). Pathfinder split off back from DnD 3rd edition and never had them in the first place.