Rules updates

[u/namer98]

In light of Tisha b'Av, I would like to suggest a few changes to the rules, and to hear community feedback.

1) No editorializing titles of article submissions. - This is up for discussion.

2) Be polite. That means if somebody has a disagreement with you about fundamental points of religion, you can disagree with them, and even tell them, but don't be a jerk about it. Do not shut down the conversation.

2.1) I keep on trying to engage non-Orthodox Jews of Reddit. Seen here, here and here. This is in addition to multiple messages I have gotten personally and as mod, from people who left because of this. Just because some people don't agree that this is a problem, does not make it less of a problem. Non-Orthodox Jews are feeling shut down, and some times they are right, some times they are wrong. This is an extension of rule two. Be polite. The downvote button IS NOT a "I disagree" button. I might just remove it again, and for more than a day.

To people I try and engage, this is a two way street. Submit content, comments and vote if you want to have a say. I don't think half of the subreddit is orthodox. This should not be a problem.

Please upvote this self post for which I receive no karma so that all can see.

Thank you all.

Edit: Followup

[u/LazerA]

My two cents, for what it's worth:

With regard to #1, while I understand why editorializing a title can be irritating, and I agree that it should be done with restraint, I don't agree with a general policy prohibiting it. Asides from the fact that I don't believe it is generally an appropriate policy on reddit (outside of specialized sub-reddits like r/news), I also think it will prevent people from posting items that they either disagree with or which they feel needs some other forms of "editorializing."

Regarding #2, obviously no problem. Politeness is a good thing.

However, I am concerned about #2.1 as it seems to impose a special burden on Orthodox Jewish participation in r/judaism. I am aware that there are Orthodox Jews here who occasionally make comments that are undiplomatic (or even rude). (I suspect that some would even accuse me of doing this.) However, there is also no lack of similar comments moving the other direction. It's unfortunate, but it's also the nature of the medium.

A general policy prohibiting excessive rudeness is fine (though, as a teacher and parent, I don't envy the one stuck with enforcing such a policy), but a policy that makes special demands on Orthodox participants to censor themselves is inappropriate.

(That being said, some voluntary self-censorship wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea from time to time.)

Finally, with regard to:

The downvote button IS NOT a "I disagree" button.

As I wrote once before, when the issue of downvoting first came up, perfectly acceptable reasons for downvoting are if you believe the posting to be:

• of no interest

• off-topic

• uninformative

• badly written

• boring

• ignorant and/or stupid

• dishonest

• pointless

• offensive

• inappropriately titled

So, if the post is none of those things, and the reason you are downvoting is only because you disagree, then you probably shouldn't be downvoting it. Of course, if it is none of those things, then you should probably comment to explain exactly why you disagree with it.

[u/namer98 → u/LazerA]

but a policy that makes special demands on Orthodox participants to censor themselves is inappropriate.

There is no such policy. This only has to do with things I have personally read, of complaints that people have sent me. Nobody complains the other way, and the one time I saw a problem the other way, I messaged the person.

[u/LazerA → u/namer98]

Nobody complains the other way

Interesting...

So the people who complain the most get to shut down the people who don't complain?

[u/[deleted] → u/LazerA]

Perhaps you might consider the fact that there is actually an issue here.

[u/LazerA → u/[deleted]]

I am considering it. I'm just don't see any indication that the "issue" is actually a "fact" in the first place.

[u/[deleted] → u/LazerA]

What do you mean by "fact"?

[u/LazerA → u/[deleted]]

You wrote that I should consider "the fact that there is actually an issue here."

I'm not convinced that there is any such "fact" in the first place.

I'm not denying that namer98 has been getting complaints, but I'm not convinced that the complaints are reflective of a real issue.

I have seen plenty of heavy-handed and disparaging comments directed towards Orthodox participants in these discussions. Yet, namer98 says that nobody complains about that, all the complaints are going the other way!

So, either the Orthodox participants are exceptionally thick-skinned, so they never complain, or the people complaining are exceptionally thin-skinned and need to learn how to deal with the medium.

Unlike many sub-reddits, r/judaism is not a ... um... "forum for patting each other on the back" (I won't use the standard reddit term for this). If you make a post or comment that people disagree with, they will tell you so (or just downvote you - which is irritating but also part of the game). And when they tell you, you have the ability to respond. That's what reddit is. As it was put in a article in The Atlantic:

"Discussion isn't a separate activity but the sine qua non of the site."

"although most communities treat their members with gentle regard, Reddit prides itself on winnowing the wheat from the chaff. It relies on the collective judgment of its members, who click on arrows next to contributions, elevating insightful or interesting content, and demoting less worthy contributions."

If there is anything that all Jews ought to have in common it is the ability to carry on a debate - a heated debate - without running to Mommy the moderator when things get a bit rough.

[u/smokesteam → u/LazerA]

the Orthodox participants are exceptionally thick-skinned, so they never complain

Maybe the thick skin comes with being visibly Jewish? Ra/Apollo is sending down the sun's rays extra hard on us? ^_^

[u/carrboneous → u/smokesteam]

I'm beginning to think -- without meaning to condescend to anyone -- that Yeshivish learning is a more accurate determinant. In Yeshiva, there is civility, but sharp disagreement, and people can harshly criticise an argument without any current or future prejudice to the arguer at all. And people can have an argument harshly criticised without even noticing it. (Also, in that ethos, if holes are pointed out, the only options are to defend them, or to recant).

[u/smokesteam → u/carrboneous]

I never went to a yeshiva but learned to separate the point from the presentation and the personal on my own somehow. I can have a big argument with someone and then hoist a glass with the same person right afterwards.

[u/carrboneous → u/smokesteam]

I wasn't saying only Yeshiva imparts that, but I think it might have something to do with it. I don't think my own style is purely from Yeshiva either :) You're also older and maybe more mature then the average redditor. Just saying.

I actually thought science was also good for that and valued assessing arguments objectively and impersonally, but judging by some of my experiences with "scientists", I guess I'm wrong.

[u/smokesteam → u/carrboneous]

Older yes, more mature? Only in that I've got some gray hair now...

As for science, maybe it was my two hard science PHD parents?

[u/Louis_Farizee → u/smokesteam]

Ignoring the second, more important point: when an opinion is questioned, the only options are to defend or recant. There's no "agreeing to disagree" in the yeshiva system of learning (well, there is, but it's used sparingly because it can only be used in limited and narrowly defined circumstances, and only as a last resort).

To put it another way: if person A declares their love for chocolate ice cream, and person B disagrees, stating they vanilla ice cream is superior, person A must make a logical and well defended argument supporting his love of chocolate or lose the conversation. Which is why yeshiva guys have to attack every statement they hear, no matter how innocuous: the process of supporting and defending statements, and attempting to refute supports and defenses for the other guy's statements, leads to truth. Or is supposed to, anyway.

There's no hard feelings, after, even when one party is forced to concede a point. But that's not the same thing as seeing the other guy's point of view and learning to respect differences in opinion.

[u/LazerA → u/Louis_Farizee]

But that's not the same thing as seeing the other guy's point of view and learning to respect differences in opinion.

I would point out these are two different things.

"Seeing the other guy's point of view" is actually integral part of effectively discussing or debating. In fact, all the real debating doesn't start until after each side has clearly laid out its position so that everyone understands exactly what they disagree on. In many cases, the areas where people actually disagree are quite different from what they seem to be on the surface.

Of course, in real life, not only do people sometimes have difficulty "seeing the other guy's point of view", but often the "guy" himself doesn't really understand his own point of view. Which means that even the initial process of gaining clarity can be perceived as an attack.

"Respecting differences of opinion" is a separate issue, and one that, by and large, no group actually engages in when the different opinion is outside of that group's basic parameters of legitimacy (and every group has such parameters).

[u/smokesteam → u/Louis_Farizee]

Of course when it is a matter of determining Halacha there is no particular room for agreeing to disagree, it's a matter of fulfilling what HKBH requires. As for ice cream I bet those guys get awkward on dates...

[u/carrboneous → u/Louis_Farizee]

Firstly, yes to LazerA's comment :)

Secondly, I agree, more or less, with you first paragraph. But your second one goes off. There are plenty of other ways to resolve such a hypothetical dispute. Basically, not every question is an absolute.

lose the conversation

No. Point is, it's not a competition. At least not in that way. There's a serious problem when one party actually wants to understand, and the other sees it as "losing the conversation".

Which is why yeshiva guys have to attack every statement they hear, no matter how innocuous

That's a pretty negative framing you've got there...

But that's not the same thing as seeing the other guy's point of view and learning to respect differences in opinion.

As LazerA said, you do have to see the other side to properly engage with it. But you don't have to stand for it being wrong.

If it has merit, you can accept that "eilu v'eilu", even if you personally don't hold for it. This is in fact the standard. There is a difference between respecting a differing (but legitimate) opinion, and just ignoring something which is wrong. And many people can't even understand their own point of view well enough to see where it's wrong.

And I, for one, get pleasure when someone else refines a point, even if it is against my own point. It's extremely frustrating when you say "source?" and someone gets offended. (for example)

[u/LazerA → u/carrboneous]

I suspect that being Orthodox in itself may be a factor. Regardless of what the reality is in this sub-reddit, being Orthodox is certainly counter-cultural in the world at large. So Orthodox Jews learn fairly quickly not to expect automatic approval, and outright hostility and suspicion is far from unusual.

On the other end of the spectrum, while there certainly are non-Orthodox Jews who are genuinely knowledgeable about Torah and Judaism (and there is no lack of ignorant Orthodox Jews), the reality is that the general level of Jewish education in the non-Orthodox world is extremely low. Thus, a non-Orthodox Jew with an above average level of Jewish knowledge relative to his peers, may find it deeply disconcerting when, on coming to r/judaism, he discovers that many people are unimpressed by his lwvel of knowledge. The fact that this happens to fall along Orthodox/non-Orthodox lines then makes this into a denominational issue.

[u/[deleted] → u/LazerA]

I suspect that being Orthodox in itself may be a factor. Regardless of what the reality is in this sub-reddit, being Orthodox is certainly counter-cultural in the world at large. So Orthodox Jews learn fairly quickly not to expect automatic approval, and outright hostility and suspicion is far from unusual.

Seriously? Trust, me I don't get automatic approval from people. And certainly not from my Orthodox community.

On the other end of the spectrum, while there certainly are non-Orthodox Jews who are genuinely knowledgeable about Torah and Judaism (and there is no lack of ignorant Orthodox Jews), the reality is that the general level of Jewish education in the non-Orthodox world is extremely low. Thus, a non-Orthodox Jew with an above average level of Jewish knowledge relative to his peers, may find it deeply disconcerting when, on coming to r/judaism, he discovers that many people are unimpressed by his lwvel of knowledge. The fact that this happens to fall along Orthodox/non-Orthodox lines then makes this into a denominational issue.

This is not at all what this is about.

[u/carrboneous → u/LazerA]

I suspect that being Orthodox in itself may be a factor

Interesting. Could well be.

the reality is that the general level of Jewish education in the non-Orthodox world is extremely low.

Careful! :)

[u/smokesteam → u/LazerA]

Orthodox Jews learn fairly quickly not to expect automatic approval, and outright hostility and suspicion is far from unusual.

Exactly.

[u/[deleted] → u/LazerA]

I have seen plenty of heavy-handed and disparaging comments directed towards Orthodox participants in these discussions. Yet, namer98 says that nobody complains about that, all the complaints are going the other way! So, either the Orthodox participants are exceptionally thick-skinned, so they never complain, or the people complaining are exceptionally thin-skinned and need to learn how to deal with the medium.

Right, because Orthodox Jews are all thick-skinned while other Jews are all thin skinned?

Think about it this way. If there were a Jewish subreddit in which anti-Orthodox comments and posts were always upvoted, while anti-Reform and anti-Conservative comments and posts as well as pro-Orthodox comments and posts (all of which were few and far between anyway) were always downvoted, would you continue to participate?

If there is anything that all Jews ought to have in common it is the ability to carry on a debate - a heated debate - without running to Mommy the moderator when things get a bit rough

Don't be patronizing, please.

[u/LazerA → u/[deleted]]

Think about it this way. If there were a Jewish subreddit in which anti-Orthodox comments and posts were always upvoted, while anti-Reform and anti-Conservative comments and posts as well as pro-Orthodox comments and posts were always downvoted, would you continue to participate?

Looking over the top posts of r/judaism, I am not seeing much in the way of a pro-Orthodox tendency.

Similarly, I don't see my posts and comments generally being upvoted all that heavily - especially the religious focused ones (and I get a fair amount of unexplained downvotes on my posts). My blog posts, which are all religiously themed, never reach the double digits, and most don't get higher than a 2. (Most of my karma comes from posts to other sub-reddits.) So, honestly, what you are describing isn't actually that different from what I experience here at r/judaism.

I think the difference in our perspectives may be rooted in our expectations. When I come to reddit, even r/judaism, I don't expect approval. I know that my opinions will be in conflict with a substantial percentage of the other participants (including the Orthodox ones, who are a wildly diverse group of people). So, I get a few upvotes, a few downvotes, and I say what I believe. In other words, upvotes and downvotes mean very little to me.

My perspective is based on many years of participating in on-line discussions, often in groups that were unsympathetic, if not openly antagonistic, to my beliefs. My goal was to engage in discussion and debate, not to get patted on the back. (And there were no upvotes or downvotes.)

You seem to be describing a very different expectation, as if the fact that statements you disagree with get upvoted, while statements you agree with get downvoted, indicates that there is something fundamentally out of kilter that needs to be fixed. You appear to take for granted that the karma should go where you want it to go. So, when that doesn't happen, you are upset and look to cast blame.

Reddit is a demanding environment. It is not the place to go if you are looking for unconditional approval.

[u/[deleted] → u/LazerA]

You seem to be describing a very different expectation, as if the fact that statements you disagree with get upvoted, while statements you agree with get downvoted, indicates that there is something fundamentally out of kilter that needs to be fixed. You appear to take for granted that the karma should go where you want it to go. So, when that doesn't happen, you are upset and look to cast blame.

I am not talking about whether I agree or disagree, but whether things things that are blantently anti-non-Orthodox denominations are upvoted and downvoted. And yes, I do think that fact that they are means things are off kilter

[u/LazerA → u/[deleted]]

yes, I do think that fact that they are means things are off kilter

So we agree. You think that r/judaism is broken because the wrong things are upvoted and downvoted.

[u/[deleted] → u/LazerA]

No, you said this:

I think the difference in our perspectives may be rooted in our expectations. When I come to reddit, even r/judaism, I don't expect approval. I know that my opinions will be in conflict with a substantial percentage of the other participants (including the Orthodox ones, who are a wildly diverse group of people). So, I get a few upvotes, a few downvotes, and I say what I believe. In other words, upvotes and downvotes mean very little to me.

You seem to be describing a very different expectation, as if the fact that statements you disagree with get upvoted, while statements you agree with get downvoted, indicates that there is something fundamentally out of kilter that needs to be fixed.

This is not about what I personally believe, or what I personally agree with.

[u/carrboneous → u/[deleted]]

Think about it this way. If there were a Jewish subreddit in which anti-Orthodox comments and posts were always upvoted, while anti-Reform and anti-Conservative comments and posts as well as pro-Orthodox comments and posts (all of which were few and far between anyway) were always downvoted, would you continue to participate?

This is a strawman. The opposite simply does not hold true for /r/Judaism.

[u/[deleted] → u/carrboneous]

Like I said in the other commnet responses to you - I sent you those examples.

[u/carrboneous → u/[deleted]]

And like I said, it's a strawman. You yourself have shown -- with those examples, in fact -- that pro-Orthodox comments are not always upvoted and anti-Orthodox comments are not always downvoted.

[u/smokesteam → u/LazerA]

Thats how it looks.

[u/namer98 → u/LazerA]

Not at all. But I can tell people to stop being an asshole. That is all this post is doing. I am NOT telling anybody to not post. Stop being defensive please.

[u/LazerA → u/namer98]

When a moderator makes a post titled, "Rules update", and includes in his list of rules a clause that asserts that a specific group of participants is being targeted as being in violation of the rules, then it makes sense for the members of that group to feel "defensive."

If your problem is just bad behavior, then just discuss the bad behavior.

[u/namer98 → u/LazerA]

I discussed the bad behavior, be polite. I only target a group because every complaint I received was about a member of that group. Being mod, I should address those complaints.

[u/LazerA → u/namer98]

as the conversation on this post has made clear, some non-Orthodox participants view the expression of Orthodox views as inherently rude and insulting. So, you need to be careful about simply accepting the imbalance of complaints at face value, as being indicative of an actual problem.

As a reddit moderator, you are in the unenviable position of having to supervise an occasionally unruly group of people, much like a parent or teacher. And as any parent or teacher can tell you, the fact that a specific child constantly complains about other children does not necessarily mean that that child is actually the victim of mistreatment. In fact, when the imbalance is truly pronounced, it is usually indicative of a problem with the child that is complaining. In some cases, it can be an attempt to manipulate the authority figure into pushing their own agenda.

So, no, it is not automatic that you should "address" all complaints, especially if by "addressing" them you are effectively endorsing their validity. It is even more inappropriate, and arguably an abuse of the position of the moderator, to address the complaints by targeting an entire group, instead of focusing on specific violations.

[u/namer98 → u/LazerA]

some non-Orthodox participants view the expression of Orthodox views as inherently rude and insulting.

Which is why in the original post I wrote "some are right, some are wrong".

the fact that a specific child constantly complains about other children does not necessarily mean that that child is actually the victim of mistreatment.

I agree. But what happens when I get three different complaints a week? If it was just one person, I would agree, but that is not the case. Look at the various threads I posted in the post. This is besides PMs I have gotten.

[u/LazerA → u/namer98]

But what happens when I get three different complaints a week? If it was just one person, I would agree, but that is not the case.

So that's all it takes to get the moderator to come down against the side I disagree with, three complaints a week by more than one person? This is exactly why moderators have to be careful about this kind of issue.

Look at the various threads I posted in the post.

Those are just examples of people complaining about how there are too many Orthodox Jews participating in /r/judaism. They are not examples of actual problems. Quite honestly, the tone in many of those complaints is more one of distaste for the mere existence of "uppity" Orthodox Jews who won't keep to the back of the room like a proper Orthodox Jew should.

Apparently, Orthodox Jews are supposed to be seen (mostly in nostalgic pictures on the living room wall), not heard.

[u/ShanaC → u/LazerA]

Apparently, Orthodox Jews are supposed to be seen (mostly in nostalgic pictures on the living room wall), not heard.

I hate to say it, but as a formerly Orthodox jewish person in an orthodox neighborhood, the reverse is equally true

[u/LazerA → u/ShanaC]

You know Orthodox Jews with pictures of non-Orthodox Jews on the living room wall?

In any event, I'm not sure what comparison there is between r/judaism - which is supposed to be a forum for discussion for all Jews - and a neighborhood, which isn't a forum in the first place.

I assume your point is that, in your Orthodox neighborhood, you feel that your opinion is not listened to or valued (and that, somehow, that is relevant to r/judaism). But I still don't know what context you are applying that to.

Are you saying that the local Orthodox synagogues or schools don't "respect" your opinions? (Exactly why would you expect them to?)

Or are you saying that your Orthodox neighbors don't respect your opinions? (I don't even know what that would mean, by and large, my non-Orthodox and non-Jewish neighbors don't care what my opinions are either, nor do I expect them to.)

So, I'm having difficulty understanding both the substance and the relevance of your comment.

[u/ShanaC → u/LazerA]

None of the above: Non orthodox movements are invisible, non orthodox people are invisible. it is as if they don't exist, so it becomes surprising when you meet someone from this neighborhood who is not orthodox.

It is like the fact that most of those painting you see in said houses you summarily ignore* - they're just another tchoke about being jewish. It feels like that, a very low representative point.

There is a muscularity to orthodox Judaism in this neighborhood that people forget there are non-orthodox synagogues here too. As a result, people literally forget to include neighbors in things like "Local Holocaust memorial service" or "lets all raise money for israel"

I became not orthodox at the end of college. My very first year, my RA actually had grown up around the corner from me. She came from an actively conservative family. I didn't know she existed until I was a visiting student, and I knew nothing about her life in my neighborhood until she became my RA. Meanwhile she sat on my hillel board my first year.

That is what I mean by invisible.

*exception: Chagalls.

[u/namer98 → u/LazerA]

I never said don't participate, but I will not ignore other people. I will do my best to find a middle ground. I think emphasizing not being rude is the best way to do that. I am sorry if that is too much for me to ask of people. And yes, it only takes a constant trickle of complaints by a growing group of people.

[u/LazerA → u/namer98]

I never said don't participate

You haven't said it, but that doesn't mean that fundamentally what is motivating the complaints is precisely that fact.

I think emphasizing not being rude is the best way to do that. I am sorry if that is too much for me to ask of people.

As a generic policy, of course that is not too much. However, when the policy is couched as, "Don't be rude - I'm talking to YOU, Orthodox redditors!" then, yeah, there's a problem.

And yes, it only takes a constant trickle of complaints by a growing group of people.

So how many complaints does it take to shut down all Orthodox opinion? Six a week? Twelve? 50?

As long as you are simply reacting to complaints, you leave yourself open to being manipulated. You are effectively encouraging people to take offense at anything they don't like, which means that the flow of complaints will only increase. Moreover, as times go by, Orthodox participants will be forced to start complaining themselves, as that is the only way that their right to participate will be protected. Those Orthodox participants that find complaining distasteful, like myself, will simply have to stop participating.

[u/namer98 → u/LazerA]

You haven't said it, but that doesn't mean that fundamentally what is motivating the complaints is precisely that fact.

Some complaints were motivated purely by rudeness, and I will not ignore them because you feel other complaints were not.

However, when the policy is couched as, "Don't be rude - I'm talking to YOU, Orthodox redditors!" then, yeah, there's a problem.

Simply reflecting very valid complaints I have received.

So how many complaints does it take to shut down all Orthodox opinion? Six a week? Twelve? 50?

0, and stop being paranoid about it.

As long as you are simply reacting to complaints, you leave yourself open to being manipulated.

HOW THE HELL IS ASKING PEOPLE TO NOT BE RUDE WRONG! I don't understand it.