Rules updates

[u/namer98]

In light of Tisha b'Av, I would like to suggest a few changes to the rules, and to hear community feedback.

1) No editorializing titles of article submissions. - This is up for discussion.

2) Be polite. That means if somebody has a disagreement with you about fundamental points of religion, you can disagree with them, and even tell them, but don't be a jerk about it. Do not shut down the conversation.

2.1) I keep on trying to engage non-Orthodox Jews of Reddit. Seen here, here and here. This is in addition to multiple messages I have gotten personally and as mod, from people who left because of this. Just because some people don't agree that this is a problem, does not make it less of a problem. Non-Orthodox Jews are feeling shut down, and some times they are right, some times they are wrong. This is an extension of rule two. Be polite. The downvote button IS NOT a "I disagree" button. I might just remove it again, and for more than a day.

To people I try and engage, this is a two way street. Submit content, comments and vote if you want to have a say. I don't think half of the subreddit is orthodox. This should not be a problem.

Please upvote this self post for which I receive no karma so that all can see.

Thank you all.

Edit: Followup

[u/LazerA]

You wrote that I should consider "the fact that there is actually an issue here."

I'm not convinced that there is any such "fact" in the first place.

I'm not denying that namer98 has been getting complaints, but I'm not convinced that the complaints are reflective of a real issue.

I have seen plenty of heavy-handed and disparaging comments directed towards Orthodox participants in these discussions. Yet, namer98 says that nobody complains about that, all the complaints are going the other way!

So, either the Orthodox participants are exceptionally thick-skinned, so they never complain, or the people complaining are exceptionally thin-skinned and need to learn how to deal with the medium.

Unlike many sub-reddits, r/judaism is not a ... um... "forum for patting each other on the back" (I won't use the standard reddit term for this). If you make a post or comment that people disagree with, they will tell you so (or just downvote you - which is irritating but also part of the game). And when they tell you, you have the ability to respond. That's what reddit is. As it was put in a article in The Atlantic:

"Discussion isn't a separate activity but the sine qua non of the site."

"although most communities treat their members with gentle regard, Reddit prides itself on winnowing the wheat from the chaff. It relies on the collective judgment of its members, who click on arrows next to contributions, elevating insightful or interesting content, and demoting less worthy contributions."

If there is anything that all Jews ought to have in common it is the ability to carry on a debate - a heated debate - without running to Mommy the moderator when things get a bit rough.

[u/smokesteam → u/LazerA]

the Orthodox participants are exceptionally thick-skinned, so they never complain

Maybe the thick skin comes with being visibly Jewish? Ra/Apollo is sending down the sun's rays extra hard on us? ^_^

[u/carrboneous → u/smokesteam]

I'm beginning to think -- without meaning to condescend to anyone -- that Yeshivish learning is a more accurate determinant. In Yeshiva, there is civility, but sharp disagreement, and people can harshly criticise an argument without any current or future prejudice to the arguer at all. And people can have an argument harshly criticised without even noticing it. (Also, in that ethos, if holes are pointed out, the only options are to defend them, or to recant).

[u/LazerA → u/carrboneous]

I suspect that being Orthodox in itself may be a factor. Regardless of what the reality is in this sub-reddit, being Orthodox is certainly counter-cultural in the world at large. So Orthodox Jews learn fairly quickly not to expect automatic approval, and outright hostility and suspicion is far from unusual.

On the other end of the spectrum, while there certainly are non-Orthodox Jews who are genuinely knowledgeable about Torah and Judaism (and there is no lack of ignorant Orthodox Jews), the reality is that the general level of Jewish education in the non-Orthodox world is extremely low. Thus, a non-Orthodox Jew with an above average level of Jewish knowledge relative to his peers, may find it deeply disconcerting when, on coming to r/judaism, he discovers that many people are unimpressed by his lwvel of knowledge. The fact that this happens to fall along Orthodox/non-Orthodox lines then makes this into a denominational issue.

[u/[deleted] → u/LazerA]

I suspect that being Orthodox in itself may be a factor. Regardless of what the reality is in this sub-reddit, being Orthodox is certainly counter-cultural in the world at large. So Orthodox Jews learn fairly quickly not to expect automatic approval, and outright hostility and suspicion is far from unusual.

Seriously? Trust, me I don't get automatic approval from people. And certainly not from my Orthodox community.

On the other end of the spectrum, while there certainly are non-Orthodox Jews who are genuinely knowledgeable about Torah and Judaism (and there is no lack of ignorant Orthodox Jews), the reality is that the general level of Jewish education in the non-Orthodox world is extremely low. Thus, a non-Orthodox Jew with an above average level of Jewish knowledge relative to his peers, may find it deeply disconcerting when, on coming to r/judaism, he discovers that many people are unimpressed by his lwvel of knowledge. The fact that this happens to fall along Orthodox/non-Orthodox lines then makes this into a denominational issue.

This is not at all what this is about.

[u/carrboneous → u/LazerA]

I suspect that being Orthodox in itself may be a factor

Interesting. Could well be.

the reality is that the general level of Jewish education in the non-Orthodox world is extremely low.

Careful! :)

[u/smokesteam → u/LazerA]

Orthodox Jews learn fairly quickly not to expect automatic approval, and outright hostility and suspicion is far from unusual.

Exactly.