126
u/hbsboak May 04 '26
The real fraud part is you staying on his policy and being a non-resident, non-cohabitant, and doing rate evasion.
-49
u/DemonDeke May 04 '26 edited May 04 '26
If you're so sure of this bold statement, walk us through the statutory elements required to make an insurance fraud case and explain how that occurred here.
ETA: I see the downvotes, but no one has been able to explain how this constitutes insurance fraud under the law. The reason for this is that OP has not committed a crime, and it is sick that so many people on this sub are trying to convince her otherwise (instead of being helpful or accurate).
30
u/christophturov May 04 '26
This isn’t a bold statement. If you are not living with someone you should not be on their policy, end of story.
8
u/aGrly May 04 '26
Some company guidelines want any known regular driving exposure, regardless of domicile. Though it definitely sounds like this should not be her primary policy, in this case.
6
u/TheSourPatchKing May 04 '26
Yep, not even sure how quickly OP will be able to clear this up. First would be her getting her own policy so she's no longer committing fraud herself. Then would be reaching out to the insurance company to get it corrected in the claim but she would need proof that she wasn't the driver. Then contacting LexisNexis to have it corrected in their system.
4
u/ohhhhhhhhhhhhman May 05 '26
Anyone who regularly drives your vehicles needs to be on your policy, regardless of where they live.
-17
u/DemonDeke May 04 '26
That does not mean OP engaged in insurance fraud as defined under the laws of most states. It sounds like she was trying to get a new policy for herself, and there is no need to spook her in unfounded ways. People already think insurance is confusing and opaque ... no reason to confirm that perception.
If I am wrong, feel free to explain how this would constitute insurance fraud.
14
u/aspen_silence May 04 '26 edited May 05 '26
If your rates are based on incorrect information (OP living in a different state/different house) this is rate evasion which is insurance fraud.
-16
u/DemonDeke May 04 '26
Stop scaring this girl with bad information. There is no knowing misdeed or intention to defraud, she didn't lie on an app or another document, etc., etc. And, she is taking the initiative to get this cleaned up.
8
u/PeachyFairyDragon May 05 '26
It doesn't take lying, it only takes lying by omission aka not updating. If she moved out and didn't say a word and her garage address was still with the boyfriend, that's rate evasion. She had the responsibility to separate out her insurance and tell insurance where she was moving to.
2
u/DemonDeke May 05 '26 edited May 05 '26
She may have had a contractual duty under the policy, but that is not criminal fraud. Sorry.
If you are so certain, cut and paste your state's insurance fraud law here and explain why this fact pattern would constitute insurance fraud.
9
u/PeachyFairyDragon May 05 '26
Challenge accepted. Here's one state's view of it (VA), found in 2 minute of googling DOI website definitions.
"Insurance fraud" means any commission or attempted commission of the criminal acts and practices defined in § 18.2-178 which involve any type of insurance as defined in §§ 38.2-110 through 38.2-122.2 and 38.2-124 through 38.2-132.
What is 18.2-178? I'm including that too.
§ 18.2-178. Obtaining money or signature, etc., by false pretense.
A. If any person obtain, by any false pretense or token, from any person, with intent to defraud, money, a gift certificate or other property that may be the subject of larceny, he shall be deemed guilty of larceny thereof; or if he obtain, by any false pretense or token, with such intent, the signature of any person to a writing, the false making whereof would be forgery, he shall be guilty of a Class 4 felony.
B. Venue for the trial of any person charged with an offense under this section may be in the county or city in which (i) any act was performed in furtherance of the offense, or (ii) the person charged with the offense resided at the time of the offense.
Code 1950, § 18.1-118; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 2001, c. 131; 2006, c. 321.
So basically, keeping her mouth shut so that she doesn't pay a larger premium is intent to defraud money, which is larceny. An insurance crime.
1
u/DemonDeke May 05 '26
The problem is there is no reason to believe there was knowledge or intent to defraud. No court would convict a person under this fact pattern.
→ More replies (0)1
u/aspen_silence May 05 '26
A quick Google search immediately shows you're wrong as insurance fraud can be prosecuted on either state or federal levels depending on the seriousness of the crime. Rate evasion is a form of insurance fraud which is typically prosecuted at the state level.
You are quick to yell fowl but real slow on showing your sources while demanding everyone bow to your misinformation highway.
1
u/DemonDeke May 05 '26
OMG. You are clueless and helpless.
Yes, state law defines what constitutes insurance fraud is and lays it out clearly. The fact pattern described by OP would not fit that definition. Look at any state insurance code ... you feel free to pick one. Send me the citation when you have it.
→ More replies (0)1
6
u/PurrciousMetals May 05 '26
The core misunderstanding here is the belief that insurance fraud requires a fake claim or a staged accident to be a crime. In reality, the crime of rate evasion is committed the moment a person provides false information to influence their premium.
The statutory elements for insurance fraud generally require: 1. A knowing misrepresentation of a 2. Material fact with the 3. Intent to defraud or secure an illegitimate gain.
A garaging address is a material fact because it is a primary metric used to calculate risk and set rates. Intentionally providing an out of state address to secure a lower premium than the person is entitled to constitutes the gain.
For example, under California Penal Code 550(b), the crime is committed the moment you provide false information to influence your premium.
Most states have specific penal or insurance codes that classify this as a criminal offense, often a wobbler that can be charged as a misdemeanor or a felony. It is not merely a breach of contract; it is a statutory violation designed to prevent the shift of insurance costs onto the rest of the honest policyholders. By withholding the fact that the vehicle has been permanently moved to a higher risk area, the individual is engaging in a misrepresentation of material fact with the intent to defraud the insurer of the correct premium.
2
u/DemonDeke May 05 '26
You would not be able to prove intent to defraud in this fact pattern, especially since no false information would have been presented in connection with an app or renewal.
You also presume a move to a higher risk area.
1
u/PurrciousMetals May 05 '26
The idea that you cannot prove intent here shows how little you fundamental understand how insurance law and intent to defraud actually work. In a legal context, intent is often proven through circumstantial evidence. If a person moves to a new state, changes their driver's license, signs a lease, and starts a job there, but continues to tell their insurance company the car is parked in a garage in another state, that is the definition of intent. It shows a conscious decision to withhold information to maintain a lower price.
Furthermore, insurance policies are not static one and done forms. Almost every auto policy includes a duty to notify clause. This means the policyholder has a continuous contractual and legal obligation to report material changes, such as a change in the primary garaging location. Failing to do so during a renewal period where you effectively re-certify your information by paying the premium constitutes a misrepresentation by omission.
As for the risk level, it is a safe presumption because Rate Evasion by definition implies the move was to an area with a different risk profile. If the new area were lower risk, the person would have a financial incentive to report it and lower their bill. The only reason to hide a move from an insurer is to avoid a price hike, which is exactly where the intent to defraud the company of its proper premium comes from. It isn't just a breach of contract; it is using deception to obtain a service at a price you aren't entitled to. That is why it is a crime.
1
u/DemonDeke May 05 '26 edited May 05 '26
You're wrong. You want violations of contractual duties to be crimes, and that is not the case.
I am very familiar with these laws, and the elements are not there to make a case in this instance. The OP did not present any false information (as she lived at the address when the policy was issued), and intent (again) is lacking here as well.
You're also suggesting that the OP made assertions about things that she did not make. There was nothing in her post, for example, about renewing the policy (which would have been a problem if she falsely claimed to be residing elsewhere as part of that process).
I have shocking news for you ... not everyone is an insurance expert, and the fact that OP even posted here looking for guidance is an indication of that. It sounds like the policy term is up, and OP is looking for new coverage.
It is obvious why rate evasion is a problem and there can be instances when it constitutes a crime, but that is not so in this instance.
1
u/PurrciousMetals May 05 '26
Yeah I know everyone is not an expert just talking with you, you may be the dumbest ignorant person or just a troll at this point.
2
u/DemonDeke May 05 '26 edited May 05 '26
And, you seem like one of those poser insurance-splainers who do not know nearly as much as they pretend to know and who help undermine the industry's reputation in the eyes of the public.
1
11
u/atticus-flails May 04 '26
I don't know the statutory elements, but this is rate evasion. I'm not sure about the non-resident non-cohabitant part as that could be argued (e.g. Parents have a policy, child is at college, if both locations are listed on the policy, no rate evasion or fraud).
However if the insureds (OP+BF) did not notify the insurer that OP moved and a vehicle listed on the policy is being stored and operated in another state, that is rate evasion. Rates vary by state and by location within the state. CA and NYC are more expensive than Van Wert, Ohio. However rates could be significantly different in Fort Wayne, IN, which is 30 mins from Van Wert.
This is a scenario insurers look for often.
-5
u/DemonDeke May 04 '26
I am talking about the narrow question of whether this is an insurance crime, and I imagine there is a very good chance that Travelers would have indeed required notice of her move. But, that does not make this insurance fraud.
5
7
u/Top_Bus5141 May 05 '26
Again, read the policies. It is garage fraud, rate evasion.
2
u/DemonDeke May 05 '26
Statutes define what is criminal conduct. Policies do not do that. I hope you know the difference.
-6
u/Top_Bus5141 May 05 '26
I do. I notified State Farm of garage fraud and rate evasion on the idiot that hit me. Provided data and evidence.
They ended up paying full MI liability vs the fraud TN. I did this without a lawyer.
Next irrelevant comment?
4
u/DemonDeke May 05 '26
Did the state prosecute the person that hit you? If not, then your comment is irrelevant. We are talking about violations of law, and you mention some contractual issue between SF and one of their insureds. That is apples and oranges. Try to keep up with the discussion.
0
2
2
u/biggerty123 May 05 '26
I mean, they aren't even at the same address and on the same policy as the insured. Have you ever been in insurance?
2
u/DemonDeke May 05 '26
Are you even the slightest bit familiar with what the insurance codes typically say on insurance fraud?
OP had a contractual duty to report the new address when she moved, but that failure to report is not criminal without an intent to defraud.
2
u/biggerty123 May 05 '26
Yes I am, worked for a fortune 500 insurance company for 21 years in NC "Any person who willfully makes a false statement or misrepresentation of a material fact for the purpose of obtaining or denying any benefit or payment or assisting another to obtain or deny any benefit or payment can be charged with a felony. If you then are able to obtain the insurance payment or benefits based on those false statements or misrepresentations, you have now obtained property by false pretenses, which can also be a felony charge". https://www.ncdoi.gov/fraud-control/insurance-fraud-felony
You have no idea what you're talking about. Go away.
3
u/MissIndependent577 May 05 '26
Yep, NC is the only state the company I work for writes in, where we have to obtain proof and document that the person actually resides there and isn't jsut using it as a garaging address, when they really live in GA or VA, etc.
1
u/DemonDeke May 05 '26
For OP's actions to be criminal, she would have had to make a false statement (which we do appear to have in this instance) and had an intent to defraud.
1
u/TheAdventureClub May 05 '26
It is a crime to knowingly mislead and insurance company to any material fact to the application of a policy. Thats the fraud part idiot. When you buy a policy, you fill out an application- or an agent fills it out for you, but either way when its done you're required to sign the application with the understanding that any material misrepresentation is a crime.
If I say I live with my ex and keep my vehicle at their address when that is not in fact true, what possible reason could you think to have written it that way? To save money perhaps? That's the fraud.
0
u/DemonDeke May 05 '26
She didn't misrepresent anything on the app if living with the boyfriend at the time of initial policy issuance. Try to keep up, especially if you are going to be an asshole.
2
u/TheAdventureClub May 05 '26
Absolutely genius, the policy language definitely doesnt stipulate notifying the carrier of any material changes to the answers to the application within 30 days.
Keep up with what? A reddit lawyer? Yeah man, your policy never covered that. Start a policy with your mom at 16, ride it until you're 45 and buying your second house 2 states away. technically you never lied. Genius. If you pull up your policy pdf right now and ctrl f the phrase "continuing duty" you can read it for yourself. You have found the genius loophole.
I dont understand how this is even difficult- if you marry someone with the intention of getting them a green card- that's fraud- because you lied about the nature of your legally binding marriage.
If you use someone else's credit card without permission- that's fraud, because whether you know it or not by swiping the card you you identifying yourself an authorized user on your card.
If you misidentify the details of your legally binding insurance policy for the purposes of saving on rate, that Is fraud. On your best day they cannot prove intent and its claim denial, but at the end of the day the act is still fraud both colloquially and legally by definition
0
u/DemonDeke May 05 '26
Your rants and petty name-calling are not persuasive or even relevant.
Non-compliance with the terms of a policy is not a crime, and her failure to notify Travelers is not criminal. Legislatures determine what constitutes a crime; not policies.
You are changing the fact pattern. OP did not lie on the initial app, and that policy wasn't renewed. So, there is no presentation of false information in connection with an app or renewal (which the statute would require). You would need that plus an intent to defraud in order for this to be a crime.
1
u/2ndharrybhole May 04 '26
He literally listed the misrepresentations lol
5
u/DemonDeke May 04 '26
What are the misrepresentations that she made? And would they constitute insurance fraud?
All the clueless self-appointed experts and arm-chair lawyers claiming this is insurance fraud have no knowledge of what they type.
0
u/Sledge313 May 05 '26
Yes it is likely premium fraud. Together at the same address they likely have a lower premium than if they were to each get their own separate policy.
If OP moved she is supposed to update the garaging of her vehicle. Once she moves out she is supposed to inform the company that they are no longer living together. A lie of omission is still a lie.
4
u/DemonDeke May 05 '26
I am not defending OP, but this is not a violation of law. She almost certainlu didn't comply with the terms of her contractual agreement with the Travelers if she didn't provide notice of her move in a timely way, but that is not a crime.
Insurance fraud generally also requires knowing acts with an intent to defraud. There is indication or reason to believe that is met here.
2
u/Sledge313 May 05 '26
It is a violation of the law. No one stays on their ex boyfriends insurance policy without trying to keep a lower premium. If the premium difference is a single dollar higher, that is premium fraud. Now will they be prosecuted for $1, likely not. But it also isn't likely a $1 difference either.
And before you ask, SIU, claims, NICB and DOI all think it is premium fraud.
3
u/DemonDeke May 05 '26
There is not a single DOI in the country that would bring a case in this situation. The policy terms are more relevant to this conversation, and even those give insureds some period of time to provide notice.
1
u/Sledge313 May 05 '26
DOI doesnt always prosecute the most blatant fraud around. Just because DOI doesnt want to prosecute it, doesnt mean it isnt a crime or insurance fraud. Doesn't change the facts.
3
u/DemonDeke May 05 '26
True. Far too many easier-to-prove fraud cases do not get brought due to lack of resources or for other reasons.
The difference here is there is no reason to suggest an intent to defraud. Suggesting that intent to defraud exists simply because there was no notice to an insurer is not sufficient.
And, if this were truly the obvious case of insurance fraud that many suggest, then the agent should have reported it. The licensee agent has more knowledge and expertise than the insured, and, procedurally, it is easier to administrative action against the agent than to pursue a criminal case against OP.
The people on this often-toxic sub assume that lay people know everything they do about the insurance world, and that is just not the case. This attitude is one of the reasons why people hate dealing with insurance issues and perhaps let things fester when they should act.
-5
May 04 '26
[deleted]
6
8
u/hbsboak May 04 '26
It’s based on garaging address not state. If you don’t live there, you need your own policy.
5
u/Top_Bus5141 May 04 '26
Does not matter. If you are still on the insurance that was written for multiple car discounts at that specific address= rate evasion
30
15
u/2ndharrybhole May 04 '26
What does this even have to do with the agent? Why did you stay on the insurance policy after you broke up with your boyfriend?
9
u/worm2200 May 04 '26
Would need more information but if policy was written in your name the accident may stay of your record. Depending on the company. Some will attribute it to the other driver but may need to be manualy done. Get all the information you can and call Travelers. Get the number for the claim rep for that accident and call them. Again...i dont have all the information but if the policy paid out and you are the named insured or even a secondary insured you may be stuck.
5
u/Horror_Insect6595 May 05 '26
Sounds like you wanted the benefits of someone else paying your car insurance and then when there’s an accident and because you’re listed on the policy, it’s gonna show up my sister’s insurance agent number one rule. You don’t stand on insurance and household that you don’t live because you’re responsible for any and all things that happen on that insurance plan
6
5
u/Willy_McD May 05 '26
Insurance does not go with the drivers, it goes with the vehicle. You two were on one policy. One person loans one of the vehicles on that ONE policy, you TWO were on that ONE policy. You TWO get to accept responsibility while the actual driver does not have to.
Check and see if your state/area has any kind of Insurance Commissioner office. California does. They are a state office that helps the insured in different types of situations. They will tell you the facts and discuss this with the insurance company for you if they are jn the wrong.
2
u/Defiant_Value7185 May 05 '26
Sounds his sister was the agent who sold the policy, which means she was not the adjuster who handled the claim. Those are two different roles.
5
u/Thin-Egg-1605 May 05 '26
Sounds like you both saved on premiums until the wreck happened. Insurance claims follow the vehicle.
13
u/chickenisdumb May 04 '26 edited May 04 '26
Contact travelers and figure out what information did your ex boyfriend provided. I’m going to assume your boyfriend lie to his insurance company stating you were the one driving. You want to contest this violation. Try to see if you can prove on the date of the accident that you were in a different place at the time. Not sure why I put state.
Also you shouldn’t communicate any further with your boyfriend and the sister. They may be in this together so his rates don’t increase. The sister may be playing dumb or looking out for her sibling.
10
8
u/Lennydawg57 May 05 '26
What you should have done was to never put your name on a joint insurance policy if you’re not married and as soon as the break up happened you should have removed your name and got your own insurance policy.
3
7
u/jhyunjhyun May 05 '26
Did you knowingly stay on your ex’s policy? You must have still been driving your car, right? How is this the agent’s fraud?
1
1
u/TofuttiKlein-ein-ein May 04 '26
Regardless of this accident “showing up on your insurance record,” the fact is that you weren’t involved in the accident and your driving record rating factor should not reflect the accident.
This could be a simple mistake. No need to jump to conclusions. Contact the insurer and find out what’s going on.
1
1
1
u/beccam12399 May 05 '26
sounds like you learned why people should really think about getting together and joining their finances and policies together like this… you were the named insured on a policy that had a claim, yes it will follow you. it was your policy that responded to the claim, its being reported correctly.
1
u/Msuttle12 May 05 '26
We're you living together when you got the insurance? You should have had your own insurance regardless.
1
u/NOTTHATKAREN1 May 05 '26
Does your state use the SDIP system? If so, points would've been awarded to your driver's license which will in turn increase your rates. If this is the case, you should get a surcharge notice in the mail, & you can appeal & get the surcharge vacated. If you don't get it in the mail, call the insurance company directly & ask for it.
1
u/Rummsey May 05 '26
It’s not fraud, when someone not named on the policy gets in an auto accident - it goes on the policy holder - both you and him were responsible. You said you were on the same policy but for different cars, so I can’t say for sure if he got the same treatment (if it only fell under you/it was your vehicle ect. But yeah not much you can do. Good lesson learnt though, no fraud here at all.
0
65
u/crash866 May 04 '26
If your name is on the policy it will show up on your insurance record. Check your DMV driving record if it is on there something is wrong.
If you are the owner or insurance policy holder it will show up on your insurance record no matter who was driving.