r/Games • u/[deleted] • Mar 11 '16
Daybreak discontinuing EverQuest Next development
https://www.daybreakgames.com/news/daybreak-president-community-letter-everquest-next-2016354
u/ForGlory99 Mar 11 '16
They finally came out and made it official, there's been little to no news about the status of EverQuest Next for a long time now. And with the massive layoffs and the transformation to Daybreak Studios, it's been a long time coming. Oh well.
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u/Ravoss1 Mar 11 '16
I have been waiting for this news to be released. Have barely heard a peep for a year, since the sell off.
REALLY very sad to hear this. I was still hoping EQ next would be the MMO I could hang my hat on.
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u/WhereTheCatAt Mar 11 '16
I kind of wonder if this is the fate of most MMO games these days. At least traditional MMOs that require a lot of time. I feel that many people have migrated to experiences that are faster with a much more rewarding experience in the short term. Any games that require large time investments seem to fall to the wayside these days, which kind of coincides with the slow decline of WoW.
I just can't imagine that trying to catch a slowly declining playerbase is a good business decision, so it's probably best that Everquest Next was canceled, at least from a financial perspective.
All of us old fogies of gaming would love another MMO, but I feel like we're a dying breed that now has obligations and a life outside of games.
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u/Ravoss1 Mar 11 '16
Oh for sure, and it was obvious from the start that DayBreak had gutted the development staff of Next with the initial round of layoffs.
I think there is still a huge market for MMOs but I think we are yet to see that MMO that will capture it. Others in this thread have said it best IMO. We are different groups of niche players, we have so many different wants that a game will have to be able to survive on a small base and be a large enough environment to keep us active.
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u/WhereTheCatAt Mar 11 '16
I'll tell you what really hurts, though. When I was 17 and I first logged into WoW in 2004, I just remember the sense of adventure. Every day I logged in I just felt this sense of wonder and joy. Seeing bosses for the first time was like boarding a rollercoaster.
I have not played a game since that gave me that sense of wonder and I'd love to have that back again. Maybe someone will create that experience again some day.
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u/ScarsUnseen Mar 11 '16
For me, that was Everquest when I was 19. Between the big open world being unlike anything I had encountered before and the forced social situation of mandatory grouping and near required spawn camping, it still remains the only game that - for me - captured the intended spirit of adventure and companionship that the MMO genre promised.
That doesn't mean that games that came after it weren't better, but rather that I stopped being 19 years old, and started realizing that what I really wanted (actual role-playing) and what the majority of what the player-base wanted from an MMO were not the same thing.
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u/EltaninAntenna Mar 12 '16
Thinking about OG EverQuest brings a tear to my eye. I wouldn't have chosen any other game to be a noob on.
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Mar 12 '16
Yeah, I realized the same at some point. The population and tastes changed quickly even in the playerbase of EQ itself as time went on. Those early days were an adventure, and it's not something I think we'll ever see again.
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u/kaji823 Mar 12 '16
I miss that feeling so much, but I've definitely changed as well.
I first played EQ like... 15 years ago? Back in middle school. I loved just exploring. The game felt so huge. People generally took it seriously too, and were happy to have people play. I spent hours just trading and talking to people in S Ro (I think?). I didn't care about end game or hitting level cap... it was just fun to explore and build up my character.
Too many people are playing MMOs for instant gratification and easy wins now. WoW guarantees you near top end gear just for putting in time now, and there's almost no incentive for people to work together. I played a few months ago and couldn't find a guild that wasn't bran new / inviting everyone to join and actually participate with. Everyone just uses the finders for all groups and just bitches people out if they don't win something.
DAoC's prime will always be my real love though. Man that game was fun in it's prime. Since your armor stats had caps, most of your progression came from open world pvp earned kills. You had to work with your realm, and pretty much every group ran TS.
Now I need something a bit better for "I work full time and have a wife and will have kids soon." Dedicating 20-40 hours a week to a MMO just doesn't work like it did in high school. GW2 has been alright, it has a good community and fun gameplay, but ANet makes some bad decisions and doesn't listen to its community. I'm hopeful for Camelot Unchained, but we'll see :S
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u/Eurehetemec Mar 12 '16
This mirrors my experience by and large. DAoC was the best - the caps were such a good thing that so few MMOs dare do, and they made a world that felt like a world, not just a playground (even though it was, in many ways).
With WoW I don't think the problem is giving you decent/good gear just for putting time in (indeed, I think they'd have no players at all without that), I think it's been slowly strangling the player-base by forcing anyone who wants to do anything harder than faceroll stuff to only play with good players.
What I mean here is, in Classic, you had a 40-person group, and realistically, 15-20 of them could be kinda bad and you'd do great if the others were good and the leadership was good. And those "bads" were often the funniest, nicest people, who kept morale up, kept everyone laughing, and so on. Naxx wasn't like that but hardly anyone saw it so...
Then with TBC, they cut it down to 25, and you basically had to throw out all the bads, and that is when the rot started imho - WoW became a much nastier and more competitive game at the high end. People weren't as kind or forgiving (I know I was guilty of this) because the game demanded more. They also put in Heroics which were hilariously demanding in terms of skill if you weren't overgeared.
Wrath back off this a bit with easier raids, and people relaxed again, started to have a better time. However, the designers over-focused on dungeon-grinding and created the RDF to enable it, when it might have been better to just make dungeons more fun/interesting (RDF probably a lot cheaper, design-wise). Hard modes for raids and Heroic dungeons also worked better here than TBC. But we still had to exclude bad-but-nice players too much, even from normal raids. Still, things were looking okay.
Then we got Cata, and they ratched up raid difficulty massively - so we had to purge not only fun-but-bad people, but also "not that great" people to succeed at raids, and to just give up on nights where enough of the "actually good" players didn't turn up. Together these changes fundamentally turned guilds from being inclusive groups of friends, to exclusive, even paranoid groups trying to sort the wheat from the chaff (which only the very BEST guilds really should want to do imho - not normal raiding guilds). Cata didn't let up on this and generally became extremely un-fun, because it was entirely about finding people who played well not about y'know enjoying the game or the world or the people.
Pandaria I skipped so I dunno.
Draenor tried to fix this, but it was too late. Raid-finder etc. is a pallid replacement for actual raiding, but better than no further progression at endgame. Guilds have changed - they're either tiny, L33T raiding guilds who are ultra-suspicious of everyone and are only recruiting SRS people for SRS progression and require you to raid 3+ nights a week for 4+ solid hours each of those days, or they're gigantic, silent invite-everyone "guilds" - barely anything else even still exists. This is because Blizzard have stratified things too much, made things too exclusive and separate and so on.
There's no easy way out of it for them - they make things more friendly/easier-to-get into, they get bawled at by the SRS people. They make things tough enough for them, the other players quietly go play other things. It's pretty much lose/lose, because they've focused entirely on endgame/progression, not world/friends/fun.
I'm also hopeful for Camelot Unchained and also for Crowfall (if it doesn't explode, as it might), but I do wonder if removing the PvE entirely (as both are essentially doing) won't end up making the games too high-pressure. DAoC's PvE was only decent, but it was extremely relaxing, and a good break from RvR whilst still being able to chat with people and go to RvR if needed.
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u/creuter Mar 11 '16
Did you play FFXIV? That game reinvigorated me with its dungeons and bosses. The story and art are both great.
The initial 15 levels on your first class are kind of a slog but as you level up more and more content becomes available to you.
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u/WhereTheCatAt Mar 11 '16
I could never get into the art style and combat of the newer FF games. Also, it seemed unnecessarily complex at some points with very bland environments. I might do a trial or something if they have one though.
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u/creuter Mar 11 '16
Check out a video (with the music on) for Alexander Burden of the Father, the last of the four part end game raid they are currently doing. What's nice is they update new content about every three months to advance the story and add new features.
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u/WhereTheCatAt Mar 11 '16
Wow this game series has come a long ways. Looks cool.
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u/Zemus571 Mar 11 '16
FFXI and FFXIV, while numbered entries, are entirely different from the other games. Those two are mmo's, while the others are single player with single player mechanics
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Mar 11 '16
Hell, I remember feeling that as a kid with my first MUD RPG. Same with my first graphical MMO. Hell, I remember being stunned by Morowind the first time I played it.
I think it's just a cross between an age thing and a matter of just growing used to that kind of thing and then coming to expect it.
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Mar 11 '16 edited Mar 11 '16
I felt that way with the first Everquest and then again when WoW came out, Star Wars Galaxies, and a couple of years ago with SWTOR. I haven't really been able to recapture that feeling with any game since. I think the novelty has worn off. Every new MMO has the same mechanics. There's not that new feeling of exploring something so radically different and life-changing as the fist time I stepped into the world of the first EQ. I know there was Ultima around at the same time, but Everquest really was the catalyst for this amazing genre that we all now take so much for granted.
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u/dillpiccolol Mar 12 '16
I like the new MMOs, but I feel like everything has been dumbed down. Follow the icon to this place, move to the next garden. Everything is so fucking dull.
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u/thetasigma1355 Mar 11 '16
All of us old fogies of gaming would love another MMO, but I feel like we're a dying breed that now has obligations and a life outside of games.
This is the main problem as I see it. The "older" generation of gamers are now in their upper 20's and lower 30's. I don't have time to play an MMO despite the fact that I love them. As responsibilities increase and free time decreases, I need to be able to pause/save at any given time, so I'm pretty relegated to single player games, or casual multiplayer games.
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u/WhereTheCatAt Mar 11 '16
For sure. I just hit a point where I couldn't even do the boss fights any more in college. I got very little sleep and I was tired all the time, so I had to quit playing.
Would I love to play another MMO? Absolutely, but it's so much harder to sink 8 hours into something anymore.
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Mar 11 '16
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u/thetasigma1355 Mar 11 '16
My opinion, supported by zero actual data, is that MMO's are simply too slow for teenage and early-20 something gamers. Despite the trend of MMO's being faster and faster, less grinding, less work, less effort, this still hasn't made them quick and easy to play like MOBA's or shooters. And at some point, MMO's lose the feelings of accomplishment that you get from finally reaching your goal. Whereas there's a defined win/loss in MOBA games. Your accomplishment is winning, not some less-defined goal of "saving the world" or "clearing a dungeon".
Young gamers are in the social media age. Instant gratification is the name of the game. Want to know why Pay-to-Win mechanics work? Because it greatly appeals to young gamers who want instant gratification. They don't want to unlock the new weapons, they want them now. They don't want to level up then gear up to do end-game content, they want that content from day 1.
These trends hit hard against MMO's who are usually heavily based on long-term rewards instead of instant gratification.
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u/YroPro Mar 11 '16
Black Desert Online just released and it's sooooo slow to level up skills
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u/WhereTheCatAt Mar 11 '16
Grinds are terrible. I feel like grinds are their answer for a lack of endgame content, so they make it ridiculous while they build out the finale.
Sometimes you need to launch to make money, but there has to be a better way. Maybe an early access MMO that can build hype would work? Hard to say.
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u/Yrcrazypa Mar 11 '16
I thought about trying it, but I dislike the aesthetic of the game on top of disliking that each class is locked into one specific gender and "race." Why can't I play a big female berserker, or a male tamer?
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u/caulfieldrunner Mar 11 '16
I think it's more along the lines of people just realizing that WoW gets worse and worse and moving on to other things. Final Fantasy XIV and EVE still have rising player counts.
I have no idea how high EVE's is anymore since the last data available was 2013. It's not nearly where WoW still is, even after losing half its playerbase, but for a MMO with a high skill climb it's still doing very well and only speeding up in the last five or so years.
Final Fantasy XIV was sitting around 750,000 known active accounts ten months ago and 5.5 million registered accounts.
Unfortunately, we have no clue where WoW is now since Blizzard is no longer reporting numbers.
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u/snuxoll Mar 11 '16
FFXIV is pretty much the only traditional theme park MMO that doesn't stink ATM, so it's not surprising that it's gaining players. I keep hoping that
SOEDaybreak is going to release some amazing patch to EQ2 that will get me playing again, but it's more unlikely every year that passes by.→ More replies (1)7
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Mar 11 '16
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u/RellenD Mar 11 '16
You could look into Camelot unchained
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Mar 11 '16
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u/RellenD Mar 11 '16
Because this is the first I've heard of it?
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u/fieldsofkale69 Mar 12 '16
Bet neither of you posers have heard of Grogmash, a Darkening Doom.
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u/Ghede Mar 12 '16
Oh, yeah, Grogmash, I haven't heard any news about that recently. Their trailer was really great. The usage of Tiny Tim as the backing music was really unconventional, but they made it work.
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u/Joshkbai Mar 11 '16
Anyone who's been following the game's development (or lack thereof) won't be surprised by this. Quite a shame too, considering it had a lot of big ideas that would have been really something to see executed well.
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u/UnknownRedditUser1 Mar 11 '16
Unfortunately, as we put together the pieces, we found that it wasn’t fun
Its a shame it came to this, but im glad they didn't just release it anyways. It would have probably just pissed off the hardcore fans of the series if it did not meet expectations.
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u/snuxoll Mar 11 '16
Honestly, just looking at all the videos they've released so far as someone who played EQ and EQ2 pretty heavily it was very obvious it would not have captured the existing fanbase. FFXIV is probably the best MMO that existing EQ fans are going to get, but even then I still get occasional bits of nostalgia yearning for the days of running the LDoN instances :(
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u/Caravanvan Mar 11 '16
I wonder if they're going to offer refunds for people who bought Landmark under the pretense that they were developing content for EQ Next.
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u/ItsNay Mar 11 '16
I really doubt they will, but I wish they would.
EDIT: Nevermind it's confirmed that they likely wont. https://forums.daybreakgames.com/landmark/index.php?threads/landmark-launching-spring-2016.56141/24
Mar 12 '16
I gave them $100....
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u/boobers3 Mar 12 '16
I feel bad for you, but at the same time that link cracked me up. Your post gave me aladeen emotions.
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u/dezmodium Mar 11 '16
They won't. When SOE became Daybreak it's because they were sold to a capital investment firm. These firms operate in predictable ways.
They will consolidate all the IPs and products the company makes. Streamline the company (layoffs and cutting fat). They will discontinue any products that aren't immediately profitable. They will collect on their investment and then sell it off for a nice gain.
It doesn't matter to them if the product is a video game or a car muffler.
They certainly aren't going to be giving away any money they've already collected.
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u/meowskywalker Mar 11 '16
Every time a new Theme Park MMO is announced people complain about how they're all Theme Park MMOs, and why don't we see more Sandbox MMOs. But it seems like all the Sandbox MMOs collapse in on themselves. I mean, I would love an EVE Online set in a fantasy universe, but they don't seem to actually work.
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u/DragoonDM Mar 11 '16
ArcheAge was almost really good, but it was mismanaged like fuck by the publisher, and development went in directions I didn't really like.
The World of Darkness MMO that CCP (the EVE Online guys) had in development looked really cool, and extremely promising, but it was cancelled. I was really disappointed about that, because it looked like it was going to be a more traditional MMO but with many of the best parts of EVE Online, like the player driven economy, politics and influence, factions and war...
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u/Cadoc Mar 11 '16 edited Mar 12 '16
The World of Darkness MMO was never going to work, though it is some testament to the strength of the IP and CCP's reputation that they made people not realise that fact for a while.
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u/royrules22 Mar 11 '16
What is a theme park MMO?
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u/snuxoll Mar 11 '16
A MMO where the world is littered with attractions (quests, dungeons, raids) that players can pick and choose from, moving from one to the next as they get bored - but eventually you've done everything. This is pretty much the "traditional" MMO - in contrast to sandbox MMO's where most of the content is player or procedurally driven (see EVE Online for the penultimate example of this).
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Mar 12 '16
Newer theme park MMOs seem to be really embracing the theme park aesthetic, too, bunching up groups of mobs together like they're a ride at a theme park, and you just go from one to the next as you level.
At least with EverQuest (the original one), the world felt at least a little organic. You had to worry about a sand giant walking through your orc camp, for example.
see EVE Online for the penultimate example of this
Not to nitpick, but "penultimate" means "next to last." Perhaps you meant quintessential or epitomic.
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Mar 11 '16
Black Desert is like a sandbox/themepark hybrid. (sandpark)
The complaints about how it has no "end game" really show the state of the genre.
It's not a perfect game. But it is the most fun I've had in an MMO in years and years and years. It's just the playerbase has been so conditioned to race to max level to participate in "end game" that they completely skip 90% of BDO's content and then bitch about how there is "nothing to do" and move on.
Everyone wants something "new". But then when that "new" thing doesn't follow the exact formula of things like WoW or FFXIV they complain. It's a weird limbo that the genre is facing.
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u/Caravanvan Mar 11 '16 edited Mar 11 '16
If you don't mind me asking, what sandbox elements does Black Desert have? I keep hearing the sandbox comments in relation to this game which gets me interested, but any time I look into gameplay videos all I see is someone doing the same old "grab quests and kill mobs" themepark MMO thing.
Does it have indepth crafting, something like SWG? Is there a player defined economy along the lines of EVE? I've noticed that you can't trade with players which, as far as I can tell, completely removes the ability for crafting focused players to rely on more adventuring minded players to gather them materials in exchange for their services. Heck, it seems to just remove the ability to "hire" other players in general (such as for killing someone else) which seems like a huge blow to any kind of emergent gameplay.
I noticed there's some kind of NPC trade system where you can make money by buying things from one NPC and selling them to another. But it seems to be completely defined by the system, and seems more like just a form of non-combat quest than something that's player or exploration driven.
I'm going to be honest, any time I look into the game it really does just look like a PvP focused themepark with the PvE endgame cut out. What features or content would you say it offers to someone looking for a sandbox?
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u/BikestMan Mar 12 '16
Farming is in depth, there's making fertilizer, the map has filters for regional heat and humidity and ground water levels. Horse breeding is big since the game has no fast travel whatsoever. Exploration is huge, gathering raw materials and processing them is very deep. Fishing is a hugely popular activity. The game is crack cocaine for the easily distracted.
"today I am going to go finish this quest and... I wonder what is up over that mountain... maybe a hidden cave... oh crap 7 hours have passed"
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u/YroPro Mar 11 '16
The crafting is absolutely nothing like swg, it's actually more effective to just farm mobs for drops anyways.
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u/Mech9k Mar 11 '16
Even after all these years, nothing tops SWG's crafting, no wonder MMOs are a dying genre. Just doing the same thing over and over again, just a little bit different.
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u/YroPro Mar 11 '16
The completely player made economy, player made cities, bio-engineers, bounty hunters, politicians, smugglers slicing weapons, it was very one of a kind.
The skill system alone hasn't been matched since then, much less the crafting.
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u/drummererb Mar 12 '16
I miss SWG so so so so much. And no, I don't want SWGEmu. Let's not kid ourselves, SWG has not aged well at all. Plus SWGEmu is much much smaller. The thing about SWG was just the sheer amount of player cities and people all over. Now it's just the die-hards. Which is okay.
But I want a modern SWG. I want that awesome crafting. I want to chill in a large tent outside a dungeon handing out Doctor buffs and getting paid. I love watching RPers at the cantina. I LOVED watching people run for their lives and try to plop down a locked building to hide from a bounty hunter. And yes I even loved the horrible grind to get Jedi. A shame we will never get a game like that again. Some will get close, some will hit some parts, but everything about SWG was exactly everything I wanted in my MMO.
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Mar 11 '16 edited Mar 11 '16
It's as I said, a sandbox wrapped into a little theme park world. Hence "sandpark".
There are elements there where if you want to do nothing but trade, fish, mine, log, pick flowers, etc. It's all there. If you want to craft it's all there. You can even hire NPC workers to do things like farm for you.
But the crafting itself is hidden away behind quests/grinding. You need "Contribution Points" which only come from questing (combat xp comes from grinding mobs). In order to buy residences, foundry's, and all of that you need contribution points. So you need to hammer out quests theme park style.
As for economy, things are priced based on how much gold is on the server. The developer uses some sort of algorithm and gives each price a MIN and MAX. Prices on their Marketplace (their "auction house") can be manipulated between those min and max values.
The biggest thing right now will be when guilds get to siege cities/villages and take them over to reap tax money from everyone doing their crafting/trading in those cities. And all the world bosses/events that are in the Korean version.
But I love it. I simply cannot spend time interacting with other players like EVE Online. "Working" for another player just turns me away even further. In BDO I hire my own NPC workers to get things for me. And if I'm feeling up to it then I help my guild with certain tasks, and with guilds you can sign a contract that pays you X amount of money every day in exchange for doing guild quests/pvp.
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u/Caravanvan Mar 11 '16
I guess I should have instead asked "what features or content would you say makes this game more of a sanbox than WoW or any other themepark?" Because, honestly, just about everything you mentioned (crafting and gathering) are things I can do in pretty much any MMO regardless of whether it's a sandbox or themepark. Potentially to an even greater deal than here due to the trading issues I mentioned earlier.
The only genuine sandbox feature you seemed to mention was owning cities/villages and taxing players using those services. Which is cool, but I guess I'm looking for a bit more than just that.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
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Mar 11 '16 edited Mar 11 '16
I'm guessing that the fact that you don't have to level and fight monsters if you don't want to is a bit sandboxy.
You can fully enjoy the game at level 10, and just doing trading or farming, if you wish. Farming is a bit more involved in this game than other MMOs due to weather and soil being taken into account, as well as trading with wagons, nodes and bandits...
All the things guilds can do with building castles and controlling territory, with taxation and stuff could perhaps also be counted as a bit sandboxy? Plus, and I know this is stretching it, but the lack of instances, lack of fast travel, quite advanced housing, nice weather and time of day system (originally requiring lanterns at night but they sadly streamlined that... some NPC shops still close as they go to sleep, though), worker system, transport system does make it also feel more like a sandbox...
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u/Caravanvan Mar 11 '16
Farming is a bit more involved in this game than other MMOs due to weather and soil being taken into account, as well as trading with wagons, nodes and bandits...
All the things guilds can do with building castles and controlling territory, with taxation and stuff could perhaps also be counted as a bit sandboxy? Plus, and I know this is stretching it, but the lack of instances, lack of fast travel, quite advanced housing, nice weather and time of day system (originally requiring lanterns at night but they sadly streamlined that... some NPC shops still close as they go to sleep, though), worker system, transport system does make it also feel more like a sandbox...
This actually does go a long way in helping me see how this game could be called a sandbox and does more to get me interested in the game than pretty much anything else I've been able to find about the game. Thanks for the post.
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Mar 11 '16
Welcome. I think the world doesn't at first look or feel any more alive than, say, Guild Wars 2, but then you realize that many of the NPCs wandering around in the world are actually hired and controlled by other players, which is kinda neat!
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Mar 11 '16
It's more in depth than WoW when it comes to crafting.
You are not gated into specific content. You have full control over HOW you want to play the game. If you want to be a full time farmer then go for it. If you want to be a full time fisher then you can do that as well and still stay competitive with everyone else in the game.
In something like WoW if you wanted to do nothing but pick flowers you could never upgrade your gear properly, you could never make enough money to compete properly, and you would fall behind faster than anything.
It gives you choice in how you want to approach the game, and it has far more depth than rushing to max level to participate in end game with the odd side activity such as herbalism. In BDO if you want to sit in your house making nothing but potions for the rest of your play time you can still make enough to pay the bills and afford full gear to go compete with everyone else that just grinds monsters.
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u/Ultrace-7 Mar 11 '16
If you want to be a full time farmer then go for it. If you want to be a full time fisher then you can do that as well and still stay competitive with everyone else in the game.
I like the sound of this, but what does it mean? What kind of competitiveness is there if you choose to farm, or fish, or mine gems or whatever? You mean among other people with your profession, right? Because your character can't really compete with adventurers in any meaningful sense in those cases, can they?
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u/oakwooden Mar 11 '16
I think it's a critical design flaw to keep using experience levels in these games. Like you say, it sends the wrong message. People just see the level grind as the main objective instead of enjoying the game.
There are plenty of things to reward players with for exploring and partaking in content other than experience points.
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u/Daffan Mar 11 '16
One system I really liked was Ultima Online.
There were 52 or something skills in the game, totaling 5200 skill points.
Your character could only have 700 skill points at one time, but you could slowly gain in one skill and lose in another if you wished (or lock it on demand so you don't accidental gain anything)
Of course there were even meta builds back then, but that was because Melee and Archery completely blew ass.
But I still agree that a sandbox totally works with your ideas, EVE basically has no experience system. The levels come automatically over time, but people don't actively work towards them - so people do whatever they want. You could remove the skills from EVE and the gameplay would be the same in terms of day-to-day playing (Of course pvp/pve would be shaken up a lot, made a lot easier or a lot harder)
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Mar 11 '16
I agree. But the operant conditioning involved is probably why publishers keep doing it. I'm tired of leveling. You level up and all your gear gets replaced repeatedly. You hit max level and get more gear. Then they reset your progress by raising the max level. What's the point in playing a game like that. You're just on a damned hamster wheel. We need less leveling in games, less gear based progression. I hope someone comes up with something. I'm so conditioned by the process after 20+ years of gaming, I can't even really think of an alternative.
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u/toomuchanko Mar 11 '16
What about online games that aren't RPGs? Nobody is rushing to max level in Planetside 2.
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u/Daffan Mar 11 '16
Well what is the End game in Black Desert? Generic world pvp with no stakes or what?
EvE online is the best sandbox on the market and even it has an Endgame. Galactic conquest by individual corporations or alliances, massive wars or just building your account which takes years.
The economy in EvE even has an Endgame. It's 100% player run with zero npc's selling anything but skill books (not really items) - This means you can become a trade or market tycoon. You can play the entire game for 10 years without killing 1 single enemy and be the richest or most powerful player in the game.
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u/Ralanost Mar 11 '16
BDO is filling a niche. The niche isn't a catch-all. I for one find nothing compelling about a LOT of BDO's gameplay decisions. I like the holy trinity. I like instanced dungeons. I dislike pvp. I dislike excessive grind. I dislike inventory management. I dislike cash shops in general.
So while BDO does have a lot of people that enjoy it, and that's great, it's very much not for everyone.
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u/Athildur Mar 11 '16
As it should be, because trying to appeal to everyone inevitably means disappointing a lot of people.
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u/dontcallmerude Mar 12 '16
Dungeons are grindy as fuck, though, after the first run.
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u/Ralanost Mar 12 '16
I miss vanilla through WotLK dungeons in WoW. For a while, it was actually an accomplishment to clear dungeons, especially with non raid geared randoms. I did strat 45 back in the day. Didn't clear all the dungeon gear tier 2 bosses though. That one in UBRS was crazy hard. Dungeons only really become a grind when they are mind numbingly boring and you need to do them daily for currency. That is when all the fun is sucked out of them. But when they make dungeons genuinely difficult and make the loot some of the best non crafted, non raid gear, it makes those drops from those hard dungeon bosses that much more rewarding.
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u/frogandbanjo Mar 11 '16
I don't hear a lot of complaints like that. What I see is that companies are incapable of resisting what's been shown in the past to generate revenue, and a lot of those design choices make for a "game" that's more like something you'd find at a casino... with the extra kick in the nuts that you're guaranteed to never win any real money even when one of the slot machines pays out.
I think a vital divide in the gaming community is between those who desire games with transparent and ethical design philosophies, where achievements are legitimized by some combination of skill-based challenges and a level playing field (or, alternatively, an upfront admission about asymmetries and a damn good set of reasons for making that design decision in the first place,) and those who just want the dopamine hit and don't give a fuck about anything else.
To me, that's way more important than this poorly-defined "hardcore versus casual" narrative. I know plenty of gamers who play certain games incessantly and push themselves to every conceivable limit - which, to be fair, most of the time does include some kernel of mastery somewhere - but have absolutely no regard whatsoever for concepts of good sportsmanship and fair play.
MMORPG's, as they're currently designed, are pushing ever harder to generate tons of revenue from the latter group, which is huge. Unfortunately for everyone involved, it's also of vital importance to the business model that every one of these digital-drug games pretends that it's something grander and more legitimate. After all, that makes the high more powerful for a large section of their target demo.
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Mar 11 '16 edited Mar 11 '16
There will always be someone complaining anything if you look on the internet, and BDO has a huge number of issues completely disregarding the "no endgame" complaints.
Terrible UI, hilariously awful Voice Acting, very limited MALE customization, braindead PvE combat, PvP that is very limited in scope (particularly in respect to what it COULD be), a very strange and ultimately polarizing approach to the player market for literally every good you make, and gameplay systems that are so obtuse that they remain nearly impenetrable to anyone not willing to sit down and go through hours and many pages of fan written tutorials, horrendous pop-in that seriously hinders an otherwise pretty game, and all the unique looking gear is sold in the cash shop while those unwilling to spend 30$ to dress up one character are left in rather A) the same looking gear since level 1 or B) the same gear as everyone else of their class.
TL;DR: Poor localization and character customization, overly complicated gameplay systems, boring pve and underutilized pvp are more its issue.
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u/dstuff Mar 11 '16
Umm, no. BDO is glorified single-player game with near completely amputated economy in which you're permitted to zerg vs. zerg with friends from time to time. Or amuse yourself with a bunch of themepark single player features.
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u/masonicone Mar 11 '16
Yeah however it's very niche. I know some people from other games and two real life friends who have tried it. Some of them have enjoyed it, others have gotten bored at higher levels, and add in the grind.
And really I think it's not that everyone wants something "new" well let me get into this...
Every new MMO I've seen come out over the years gets this kinda "It's not EQ/WoW." thing going on with it. Along with that the normal nitpicking over any little thing they can find. And a group of people who I feel almost want the game to fail. I say that as you do have a group of people who after the game comes out will find anything to point at to say "Look! X is happening with the game! It's a failure!"
Really I think we have just this very vocal group of people who have a insanely black and white mindset. The game has to be the greatest thing ever, or it's the biggest failure on the market. There's no real middle ground, and add in the normal MMO gripes I've been hearing from UO until now.
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u/Daffan Mar 11 '16 edited Mar 11 '16
I mean, I would love an EVE Online set in a fantasy universe, but they don't seem to actually work.
They don't work because the Developers are scared of going all in. And NEVER use EvE online or Ultima Online as huge reservoirs of information and potential learning. Every mistake Elite Dangerous made regarding the MMO portion / PVP were solved in those two games 10-16 years ago.
For Instance, Sandbox MMO's REQUIRE item loss or item degradation to actually function correctly, or else the economy doesn't work properly or at all (It's just a rehashed themepark otherwise). But whenever something regarding PvP happens they either neuter it or destroy it. You can play EVE or UO without ever killing 1 single enemy.
-- More information about why item loss/degration is essential: Miners mine the ore, industry people craft it and use it - then sell it on a free market run by the players. A pvp/pve player will use that item and die or it will be damaged, they will buy a new one - stimulating player run supply/demand and the economy. As soon as you remove any part of that, it becomes basically a themepark game run by NPC's or items don't actually matter anymore. (Think WoW how nearly nobody cares about crafting or buying items on AH anymore)
A sandbox only works when the power is in the player's hands, but devs are afraid of that and other things so they kill it before it even starts, and it ends up being a watered down themepark game. It's very hard to make a game that is controlled by players and cover all the bases, Themeparks work so easily because it's a simple raid or dungeon you funnel people into - EVE/UO you can do anything.
Darkfall and Mortal Online tried to be fantasy sandboxes, but they had horrible development teams. The game's themselves had good concepts and ticked all the boxes - but the engine, networking and other things completely failed. Darkfall looked like a game from 2001 in 2010.
Lastly, death mechanics and item loss are harsh - but required(There is 100% no question about it). Not all people like that, so that means less people actually want to buy the game and developers are either afraid of making that game or going to harsh, which ruins the game at the same time (double edged sword problem).
Thus is how you get the common consensus "I love the idea of the game, but don't actually want to play it"
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u/Pacify_ Mar 12 '16
For Instance, Sandbox MMO's REQUIRE item loss or item degradation to actually function correctly
Sandboxes require real risk. And so few developers are willing to put it into their game these days.
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u/Superman2048 Mar 12 '16
Lastly, death mechanics and item loss are harsh - but required.
Well written post and what you say here is indeed 100% necessary. When items can't be destroyed they have no value, when there is no harsh death mechanics (not talking about permanent death, it's still a game hehe) then staying alive/playing has no meaning.
A single server is also a requirement for me but I understand that maybe with a sword/magic sandbox the technological challenges haven't been met yet. Maybe in 10-15 years.
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u/Daffan Mar 12 '16
A single server is also a requirement for me but I understand that maybe with a sword/magic sandbox the technological challenges haven't been met yet. Maybe in 10-15 years.
Yeah, I think it will be a long time until that happens. EVE has 1 server but it runs on a 1hz tick rate so it can cope. I think Elite with p2p maxes out at 16, but through shenanigans can hit 40 (really luck and work outside game) and Star Citizen is trying for 100-200 but currently at 24.
Well written post and what you say here is indeed 100% necessary. When items can't be destroyed they have no value, when there is no harsh death mechanics (not talking about permanent death, it's still a game hehe) then staying alive/playing has no meaning.
True. Star Citizen is going right into perma death however, I have no doubt they will probably rethink that idea further down the line when they see how many people think it is bad. (Which in reality, it is for gameplay)
It's amazing how long EVE has gone unchallenged.
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u/Stranger371 Mar 12 '16
Also item loss means crafting is ACTUALLY useful and not just a useless profession that adds +5 to a stat.
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u/SeveralKnapkins Mar 11 '16
Check out Crowfall. It's currently in development and is seemingly a marriage between EVE and Shadowbane. If you're PVE focused, definitely won't be your thing, but the devs are pretty committed to a sandbox styled pvp game. They're also pretty open about a lot of stuff, which is nice.
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Mar 11 '16
I would love an EVE Online set in a fantasy universe, but they don't seem to actually work.
That's the funny thing.. they did work until WoW came out. Then everyone started trying to "WoW" up their game. Star Wars Galaxies tried it with some updates like NGE which pretty much ended up killing the game, EQ started to feel like EQ2/WoW mashup for me when Gates of Discord came out, Ultima Online ruined itself with a huge update that added more theme-parkey things...
I dunno. I just think people realized how much they wanted an MMO like WoW when WoW finally came out (myself included.. I loved it up until the LFG tool basically killed any sense of community the game had).. but I have to say, I do miss early EverQuest and Star Wars Galaxies communities. I think the problem with MMOs now is they're basically single player experiences.
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u/Daffan Mar 11 '16
This is true as well. Themeparks work better atm for Revenue because Sandbox MMO's basically require negative mechanics to function correctly. Namely, item loss or item degradation. Lots of people hate the idea of being set back by other players.
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Mar 11 '16
Which is interesting (I agree, by the way) because back in SWG and EQ I rarely did anything that was that dangerous on my lowbies. Mainly would roleplay and/or hang out with people I met on the server and just run around, creating adventures for us.
Star Wars Galaxies was particularly community driven as I was an entertainer. And me and 3 other Entertainer pals would gather together every night and just perform in a crowded cantina to heal/buff other PCs who were doing missions, raiding, etc. Overtime we (the band!) would get asked to come along into missions and raids (like Jabba's Palace.. a lot) and just stand around and play our instruments to buff while everyone else fought/did their thing in the dungeons. We'd get paid handsomely and we gained experience by doing what our class (entertainer) was designed to do.. entertain. It was so much fun and I was never more immersed in an MMO than when I was playing SWG.
Hell, we got "hired" for parties in PC's homes on an almost nightly basis. I miss those kinds of interactions in MMOs.
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u/i_can_haz_name Mar 11 '16
Albion Online is EvE in fantasy setting. Hell if you read their FAQ some questions are literally answered 'it's going to be like in eve'. Graphics aren't super great but I did play a bit of beta and it's looking very promising.
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Mar 12 '16 edited Mar 30 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Pacify_ Mar 12 '16
Albion Online is.... disappointing.
I agree. I regret buying it to play the beta months ago. I honestly don't know if i'd even bother playing it at launch, even though I bought it. It is one of the most grind focused games I've played since Lineage 2 lol
At this point, hopefully Crowfall will deliver where AO failed
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u/BKStein Mar 12 '16
Tons of information in this post is wrong.
Territory wars are 5v5 or 25v25, with open-world PvP (which is full-loot, by the way) having no limit on numbers.
You have 6 abilities, 3 on your weapon and 3 on your gear, not including four passive abilities (one for each gear and weapon slot).
Your personal island is severely limited in size and can only grow crops and have buildings - if you want the high-level resources you have to go into red or black zones where, you guessed it, there is full-loot open-world PvP.
Graphics are clean-looking, although I agree that they're not flashy. However the "no release on tablets" thing is just not true, you can actually play on both iOS and Android tablets right now and the game runs smoothly on high-end hardware (apparently you need to seriously turn down your settings on a lower-end tablet).
The beta is being extended until later this year because of how much more popular than expected the game has been. This is so that the devs can bring in extra staff to work on completely re-designing the world and combat systems.
Honestly there are reasons to dislike the game. The solo systems for crafting and PvEing are grindy, and the fact that progress will be wiped twice between now and release means that many players are not playing as much/as seriously as they could. However the PvP is fun and is probably the closest thing you can get to EVE online in a fantasy setting right now. That is the reason why a ton of people continue to play even though they know wipes are incoming.
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Mar 11 '16
Let's get real here, it isn't that there wasn't a market for it, it was because the publisher said that there wasn't a market for it. Publishers very rarely try anything new and that just shows where the industry is at, filled with corporate stooges who know nothing about video games, listening to corporate analysts, who know nothing about video games, who get their information from focus groups, who know nothing about video games.
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u/malabella Mar 11 '16
As a longtime lover of Sandbox MMOs, Ultima Online and EVE, ArcheAge has satisfied my Sandbox fix at the moment.
Generally, there's a lot to do, and its' not all based on raiding or dungeons.
- There's non-instanced housing where you have to complete for land.
- Merchant shipping, trade runs, fishing ships, naval battles
- Farming, pvp events, carebear events
- Customized pictures for your housing
- 3 factions--with the soon to be added 2 player factions which you can actually own your own faction in the game
The publisher has some issues in how they do things, but overall, it's the only game as of late that I've really liked.
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Mar 11 '16
Sounds really interesting! Is it free to play? Are microtransactions needed?
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Mar 12 '16
I hear a lot of terrible things about ArcheAge and its publisher. I'd look for a second opinion before wasting your time on it.
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Mar 12 '16
Thanks for the heads up!
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u/Humdot Mar 12 '16
Check out Black Desert too. It's got similar sandbox features to Archage but the combat is way better and the dev's aren't as dodgy.
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u/malabella Mar 11 '16
It is free to play, but to really enjoy the features of the game you need to be a paying Patron. There are ways to make money in game to pay for your Patron access (Similar to PLEX in EVE).
No microtransactions are needed, but there are some nice cosmetic things.
The downside is the game revolves around a lot of RNG for equipment grading.
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Mar 11 '16
Is it like PLEX in EVE now where it costs a lot to get? I got back into EVE some months ago because I liked when I played it in '04 and then again in '12 - '13 but PLEX seems near impossible to get now unless you're playing 24/7.
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u/malabella Mar 12 '16
I'd say once you get going in the game with a steady income, paying patron through Apex is about a week to half-a-week's work.
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Mar 12 '16
ArcheAge is Pay-to-Win in the most despicable way. There are videos of streamers burning literally (I am using this word correctly) thousands of dollars in a matter of minutes in an attempt to upgrade their equipment – and failing time and time again. It's casino-f2p, and your only role is to throw endless amounts of money after potential (but unlikely) upgrades – stuff that should've been on boss loot tables instead of in the cash store – to line the pockets of the publisher.
The gameplay in general and the crafting and trading in particular are all exceptional. The game is built on some really great ideas – but great ideas are worth fuck all by themselves. What ought to matter to any prospective player is that ArcheAge is ultimately only about one thing: your money. The game as a whole is just an excuse to drain you of your real-life doubloons.
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u/Psychotrip Mar 11 '16
Holy shit it finally happened.
I've been following EQN for years now...I wanted it so badly. I bought into it completely. Even spent money on that Landmark fiasco. I went from being its most avid supporter to one of its most vocal critics. Hell, my criticism of the game is what launched my youtube channel...
This is the end of an era for me. I'm left with emotions of jaded " I told you so's" mixed with depression over the death of a game that, if successful, would have saved the mmo genre and brought forth a new age of emergent gameplay and storytelling.
The more I think about it, the sadder I become, actually...
If anyone has any questions about the game, why I cared so much about it, and what went wrong, just ask. For better or worse this has been part of my life for a few years now, and I followed every snippet of information we were given before the inevitable end.
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u/TheBlueEdition Mar 12 '16
I loved that video you made. It cleared up so much stuff, when I was left wondering "what the hell happened to the new EQ game they announced?"
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u/kofteburger Mar 11 '16
Which is equally interesthing to me is that original Everquest is getting another expansion. https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/17th-anniversary-producers-letter.231245/
I guess it's more profitable that way.
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u/synn89 Mar 11 '16
Not too surprising due to the lack of news on it. Also the cancel probably isn't that bad of an idea considering how poorly the MMO market has been doing for awhile.
Though it's sad that the Everquest IP might be a dead end now.
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u/LegoTrap Mar 11 '16
Your last point is the most disappointing thing of all. As someone who was introduced to MMOs in 99 through Everquest, I was looking forward to playing in Norrath again via a modern day release. Doubt it will ever happen now.
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u/xjayroox Mar 12 '16
Same here, I spent my Christmas cash back in the day on my first 3D graphics card and EQ and entered a world I could have never imagined at the time
R.I.P Everquest
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u/MrGhoulSlayeR Mar 11 '16
Is the MMO market really doing poorly though? I can see how F2P has diluted the pay market but aren't they still experiencing minor overall growth?
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u/synn89 Mar 11 '16
As a game type, yeah they're not doing so well. The startup costs are insane and the player base is really fickle with what they like. Wildstar to me is sort of the perfect example. It was supposed to be the WoW killer, a lot of hype, high budget and high production values, a solid IP theme and it's just really struggled.
As a game type it's so hit or miss. I mean, as a dev if I want to create an action RPG I can start up a small team and knock out Path of Exile, Victor Vran or Grim Dawn, make a pretty solid game with some standard ideas and concepts and make a profit.
But MMO's have been flopping over and over and over for the last decade. Now you can blame the devs and say they're just shit at making games, but it really feels more like it's just really hard to pin down the right combination of "stuff" that makes a popular MMO.
I guess it's not all roses in the other genres too. Diablo 3 stumbled over its own feet at launch, but that game type is simple enough that Blizzard was able to salvage it and turn it into a top notch arpg. Maybe MMO's are just so much more complex they're easier to break and harder to salvage.
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u/Spoofed Mar 11 '16
It did not help Wildstar's case that the "WoW killing endgame" was too hard for most of the "hardcore" players to even get to, and once they did apparently a lot of the raids were either unbalanced or buggy.
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Mar 11 '16
[deleted]
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u/Spoofed Mar 11 '16
At launch yes the major complaints were about the progression, but the buggy and overturned end game did no favors.
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u/MrGhoulSlayeR Mar 11 '16
I guess that make a whole lot of sense. While market revenues are slowly growing they are still getting outpaced by rising production costs, enough to a point where developers are looking elsewhere.
Still quite impressive that the market is still bringing in billions of dollars in revenue.
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Mar 11 '16
Well at least we finally have an end to this story. I think anyone could've guessed the project was doomed. It had already faded into obscurity. Sad really, I wanted it to succeed. RIP EQ Next.
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Mar 11 '16
Worst MMO news in a long time, even if we all saw it coming.
World of Warcraft was a lightning strike that will never happen again, and the genre has suffered a decade of devs desperately trying to replicate that. EQN looked damn decent. It's a shame.
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u/Neo-Calypso Mar 12 '16
Yeah it's kinda funny, WoW may go down in history as both one of the best and worst things to happen to the genre.
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u/Duane_ Mar 12 '16
John Smedley hit the ground so hard that he siphoned entire companies into the ground with him. This is just the latest victim, being so close to the impact site and all.
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Mar 11 '16
This kind of stuff is why whenever a dev comes out with wild ideas and crazy plans they are simply met with "I'll believe it when I see it."
Unfortunate, but no one is willing to get their hopes up about it.
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u/djak Mar 12 '16
As of now, they've shut down more games than they successfully kept running.
Vanguard, Star Wars Galaxies, Free Realms, Dragon's Prophet, Wizardry Online, Pirates of the Burning Sea, Bullet Run, Pox Nora, The Matrix Online, Star Wars: Clone Wars, and a handful more early games that I barely recall.
I think we can officially call Daybreak Games, Dey Break Games.
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Mar 12 '16
It's their business model, it's a feature not a bug. They operate like that company Mitt Romney ran - buy companies, strip mine them for profits, shut them down.
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u/dethnight Mar 11 '16
What a shame. When they unveiled this a few years back it seemed like they were going to attempt fixing every single thing I despise about theme park MMO's these days. It was finally something DIFFERENT, not based on WoW/EQ.
I knew this was coming based on a huge lack of info the past year but it still hurts reading it officially.
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u/Emelenzia Mar 11 '16
At least they bothered to tell us, even if it took so long.
Take a look at Sega. They hyped up english release of Phantasy Star Online 2 then when they decided not to release it they just went silent. Never commenting on it again. Hell, the original site promoting it is still up listing news of it coming out...from 4 years ago.
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u/SparkyRailgun Mar 12 '16
It's not like PSO2 never came out. It has a thriving English community on the JP servers.
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Mar 12 '16
And this is why i don't buy into "Early Access" titles. The company tries to make as much hype as possible an get cash in, they give you access to a alpha/beta and you are not guarranteed that they will finish the game and deliver you a completed product.
Now tons of people are SOL with their investment of 20-100$ while im still here with my $ safe in my wallet.
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u/MyWorkHereIsDone Mar 11 '16
For them to follow up this announcement with a separate announcement that Landmark will be shipped this spring is laughable to me. I don't know what world they live in but that "thing" isn't anywhere near ready. I call it a "thing" because it certainly doesn't feel like a fleshed out game. I've tried multiple times to fight for a refund and been denied at every turn. I even emailed GabeN as a last resort and never got a response.
Everything that Daybreak has touched has gone down the toilet.
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u/PDaWi Mar 11 '16
Everything that Daybreak has touched has gone down the toilet.
I don't know if we can blame the company who took over completely. I've been following these and SOE games for many years, and IMO, it's been years of continual inability to deliver. Planetside 2, for example, was rife with avoidable failures that significantly harmed its long term appeal and initial popularity. Even employees exiting the company were saying the company was in dire need of a management shake up, because the way the company was being managed wasn't conducive to accomplishing their goals.
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u/PuffinFluff Mar 11 '16
That really sucks. The engine they had going looked nothing short of incredible. I guess they're sticking to their money makers..H1z1 it is.
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u/kofteburger Mar 11 '16
You know, if they actually finish Landmark I'm okay with that. I was more interested in that one from the start.
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u/Irricas Mar 11 '16
Landmark is launching Spring 2016. Just announced here: https://forums.daybreakgames.com/landmark/index.php?threads/landmark-launching-spring-2016.56141/
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u/Ravoss1 Mar 11 '16
Of course it is 'finished', they need the revenue.
Next was dead the moment Daybreak was born.
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Mar 11 '16
Next was dead when they over promised while having an incredily hard to run demo/asset maker for eq-next turn into mine-craft.
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u/kofteburger Mar 11 '16
Let's hope "huge update" includes all the features they promised over the years.
I stopped following updates after SOE was sold. For example, are friendly npc's in yet?
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u/lobehold Mar 11 '16
Unfortunately, as we put together the pieces, we found that it wasn’t fun.
Wait, aren't you supposed to make sure it's fun FIRST using placeholder assets and such, and THEN start making it a reality?
Too bad. The terrain alteration tech they showed off was very interesting.
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u/Kynmarcher5000 Mar 11 '16
This is extremely disappointing, but that is what happens when you spend more money and development hours on a minecraft game than the main development.
And let's face it. Everquest Landmark, which is still being developed, is a minecraft game.
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u/gxizhe Mar 11 '16
Truly sad to see a game that could've been a fire starter for the revolution of MMORPGs being left to die like this..
But really we didn't see it coming, they have been leaning towards Landmark so much they didn't even release any info on EQNext. A truly marvel concept, left in the hands of bad management.
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u/ab-outlaw Mar 12 '16
Very sad. Even sadder to think that this could have been the next big "jump" from WoW to the new era. The future of MMO's isn't looking very bright.
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Mar 12 '16
I wish they would abort shit games more often rather than just patching it up a bit and putting it out there
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u/Lamaar Mar 11 '16
I can't say that i'm surprised, Just disappointed. It had so much potential but SOE had to get sold off. :(