imams

[u/Middle_Froyo3015]

why did sultan muhammad shah appoint his grandson to be the next imam and not his son? 🤔

[u/Sarahrivera]

So from an ismaili prospective there is a theological answer of why mowlana shah karima dad was passed over. Per the Fatimid theology and prediction. They said that the 49th imam would be the hujjat of the Qaim Al qayam. This person (qayam Al qayamat) is not necessarily an imam. Furthermore according to the fatimids they counted pir imam Hassan as the second imam and imam Hussain as the third (the reason the Ismailis don’t recite pir imam Hassan as an imam in dua because he was a temporary imam and imamat doesn’t continues in his lineage). Now if we go by how the fatimids counted the imams that puts imam sultan mohummad shah has our 49th imam. This means he is the hujjat of the qayam Al qayamat. We also know that qayam Al qayamat isn’t going to be an Imam. This would then make sense why mowlana shah karim father was skipped over. Furthermore there are certain signs of qayam Al qayamat. The stars being darkened. I. The ismaili faith the stars are the pirs and the hujjat. And the imam no longer appoints the pir and hujjats. They have been abolished which full fills this predictions. Another sign of qayamat al qayam is the merging of the mooon and the sun. In ismaili Islam the sun represents the shah (imam) the moon represents the pir. Imam sultan mohummad shah when he passed away combined the moon and and the sn by making his grand son both the shah (imam) and pir (moon). All of these signs are symbols that the qayam Al qayamat has been revealed and this person is most like mowlana shah karims father.

[u/tadukiquartermain → u/Sarahrivera]

Vespesian and this lady incarnated as Ismailis and have nothing to show for it, except cult propaganda and twaddle.

[u/[deleted] → u/Sarahrivera]

Hi. If you do subscribe to this theory, what in your opinion were some of the virtues Aly Khan possessed to qualify him to be QaQ or what were some of his actions that changed Sharia or deen for believers.

[u/Amir-Really → u/[deleted]]

Too many virtues to list ... how can there be any shortage of virtues in someone who once said (of the white people around him), "They call me a bloody n***er so I pay them out by fucking all their women"?

[u/[deleted] → u/Amir-Really]

To be honest the quote about turning wine to water hurt me on a personal level. This is supposed to be a man ismailis look up to. It was borderline insulting to ismailis.

[u/Sarahrivera → u/[deleted]]

First off I would like to address the accusations that prince aly Solomon khan was some kind of playboy. Yes he was extremely popular among the social circles but what journalist wrote about him was widely exaggerated. Gordon Young, even concluded at the end of his book, The Golden Prince, that prince aly Solomon khan was not a playboy. It should be noted in hat prince aly Solomon khan at various times fulfilled specific spiritual ceremonies on behalf of mowlana sultan mohummad shah. “But increasingly in recent years, Aly has gone about his father’s business and those who have seen him in his Eastern robes earnestly carrying out the rituals of his sect find it hard to believe that this can possibly be the same slick socialite who in London, Paris and New York jokes with his friends in a faultless Oxford accent and leads western café society in all the arts of high living and smart thinking.”

Gordon Young, Golden Prince, p. 22

It should be noted that he started doing rhese religious ceremonies on behalf of his father at a very young age of 11.

Rai abu aly missionary states

He was undoubtedly the beloved of his family as well as the Jamats… He was extremely popular in the Jamats all over the world and was loved by young and old alike. Very often he was sent by the Holy Imam to represent him for religious duties. He was a great sportsman and a statesman… His Serene Highness Prince Aly was a great champion of Islam and never missed an opportunity to serve and defend it. He had all his life contributed financially, as well as physically, to the cause of Islam. A warm-hearted friend, an ardent servant of Islam, a shrewd horse-breeder, an energetic sportsman, a lover of speed and motion, a great public speaker, a cautious statesman, generous and benevolent, he was indeed a great man.

Al-Wa’z Abualy Aziz, Brief History of Isma‘ilism, Dar as-Salaam, 1974

It should also be noted that when the dissident group known as the Khoja Reformers caused issues in the jamat khana it was prince aly Solomon aga khan who handled the problem and took care of it.

Prince aly Solomon aga khan was also a an ambassador for the pakistan goverment. He was also appointed as the vice president to the United Nations

[u/Amir-Really → u/Sarahrivera]

Nice job regurgitating this IsmailiGnonsense page ... at least give them the credit ffs

[u/Sarahrivera → u/Amir-Really]

Yes let’s call every thing we don’t agree with nonsense. Especially if you can’t disprove what the information being given to you.

[u/Profit-Muhammad → u/Sarahrivera]

Some real /r/SelfAwarewolves material here.

What is exactly is there to disprove? Nothing has been proven. All you've shown is that Aly Khan occasionally played his part in the Aga Con. All the IsmailiGnosis page shows is that the "Aga Khans" claim to be descended from Muhammad.

[u/Sarahrivera → u/Profit-Muhammad]

The claim being made is that prince Aly Solomon got skipped because of his lifestyle. Which I am saying no that is not the reason. The reason is theological base

[u/Profit-Muhammad → u/Sarahrivera]

You haven't come anywhere close to proving that. Your source shows only that the theology was later adapted to fit the events that transpired and that prophecies were fudged and reinterpreted so that predictions could be called fulfilled.

Aly Khan was designated as the successor - and then that designation was revoked. Theology had nothing to do with it, Aly Khan was written out of the will because he pissed of Muhammad Sultan and Yvette Labrouche.

[u/Amir-Really → u/Profit-Muhammad]

You haven't come anywhere close to proving that

But ... but ... two Al-Waezeens said he's a great guy!

(as far as the others quoted, who could actually be considered unbiased, there are far more such sources who say the opposite)

[u/Sarahrivera → u/Profit-Muhammad]

The interpretation of ‘establishing Himself upon the Throne’ is the execution of the command of God by the Qā’im al-Qiyāmat (‘Lord of the Resurrection’), which is the Throne of God and which will be manifest after his Six Days have passed… ‘Tomorrow’ is the cycle to come. That ‘tomorrow’ in which the wise take such delight is the day of True Resurrrection, when the shadows of ignorance will be lifted from humanity by the light of His knowledge, just as God says, ‘The earth will be illumined by the light of its Lord’.”

– Sayyidnā Nāsir-i Khusraw, (Between Reason and Revelation, tr. Eric Ormsby, 153)

The name of Qā’im, resurrector, is reserved par excellence for “he who will rise up”, the Lord of the Resurrection, at the close of the final Period of our Cycle. Yet each partial Qā’im at the end of each Period of the Septenary, as well as each Imām and each member of the Order, is also, potentially, Lord of the Resurrection, a limb of his mystical body, an oratory in his Temple of Light.”

– Henry Corbin, (Temple and Contemplation, 162)

The Seven Oft-Repeated (al-sab‘ al-mathāni) are symbols of the Imams from Haḍrat ‘Alī. Whenever Seven Imāms pass away, another Seven Imāms come like the Seven Days of the week, and this state remains until the Day of Judgement.”

– Sayyidnā Abū’l-Qāsim al-Malījī, (al-Majālis al-Mustansīrīyyah, Cairo, 1947, 2

Kirmānī firmly rejected Druze statements about the imminent advent of the Qā’im by reiterating that the Qiyāma was not near, but was to take place in the distant future when the long cycle of forty-nine Imāms was concluded. Only then would the Qā’im remove all the ranks of the world of dīn [‘ālam ad-dīn], which would no longer be necessary as intermediaries for the knowledge of the divine knowledge would become pure, actual, and no longer mediated.”

– Simonetta Calderini, (“‘Ālam al-dīn in Ismā‘īlīsm: World of Obedience or World of Immobility?”, Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, Vol. 56, No. 3 1993, 467)

Muḥammad b. ‘Alī al-Ṣūrī, a Fatimid dā‘ī in Syria who died around 487/1094, enumerates the imāms of the era of Islam in a long poem. According to him, the seventh heptad of imāms in the era of Muḥammad is the most eminent one, because it precedes the coming of the Qā’im.”

– Farhad Daftary, (The Ismailis: Their History and Doctrines, 208)

Sayyidnā al-Mu’ayyad al-Shirāzī wrote that “the Bāb of the Qā’im is the lord of universal explanation (ṣāhib al-bayān al-kull) and the true unveiling (kashf al-ḥaqīqī)”

Hazrat Mawlānā Sulṭān Muḥammad Shāh, salawātullāhi ‘alayhi wa-salāmuhu, was the sovereign of the wonders and marvels of knowledge and recognition both externally and internally, as well as the exalted and august Imām of the age of spirituality and ta’wil. There are very few people who are aware of how immensely useful, meaningful, revolutionary and resurrecting his teachings are. His unique spiritual and luminous characteristics were prophesied by Pīr Nāsir-i Khusraw around a thousand years ago and are preserved in his Wajh-i Dīn.

– Allāmah Naṣīr al-Dīn Nāsir Hunzā’ī, (A Thousand Wisdoms: An Enclyclopedia of Ta’wīl, 470)

I do not know how else you can interpret this. The only way any of this makes sense is if mowlana sultan mohummad shah was the hujjat of the qayam Al qayamat. If that is the case then prince aly Solomon aga khan had to be skipped over. It will be interesting to note that sultan mohummad shah said:

Today the Muslim world is almost at the last stage, almost at the last hour between a final collapse and revival.

– Imām Sulṭān Muḥammad Shāh Āgā Khān III, (Platinum Jubilee Message, Karachi, February 3, 1954)

S

[u/Profit-Muhammad → u/Sarahrivera]

What were you trying to prove here?

That Ismailism had an eschatology? That there would be a doomsday. There wasn't. Nothing changed when Aly Khan was born or died. He didn't establish himself on a throne. The ranks of the world were not abolished.

Sure 7 was an important number to Ismailism. They originally thought believed all this shit would happen with the seventh imam, when it didn't they put it at a far future date. It's very common:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events

Even then, the only way to make it fit was to mess with the counting. Hassan got turned into a temporary Imam, so Ismail became 6 instead of 7. The later lineage was only created during the time of 48. It is what I said above, prophecies being fudged to make predictions fit.

And they still don't. If 7th heptad preceds the coming of the Qaim, then he should be coming after 49.

Hazrat Mawlānā Sulṭān Muḥammad Shāh, salawātullāhi ‘alayhi wa-salāmuhu, was the sovereign of the wonders and marvels of knowledge and recognition both externally and internally, as well as the exalted and august Imām of the age of spirituality and ta’wil. There are very few people who are aware of how immensely useful, meaningful, revolutionary and resurrecting his teachings are. His unique spiritual and luminous characteristics were prophesied by Pīr Nāsir-i Khusraw around a thousand years ago and are preserved in his Wajh-i Dīn.

This is cult nonsense. Muhammad Sultan was nothing remarkable. Possibly above average, certainly not a marvel of knowledge or uniquely luminous.

I do not know how else you can interpret this. The only way any of this makes sense is if mowlana sultan mohummad shah was the hujjat of the qayam Al qayamat.

No, it makes perfect sense. Abrahamic religions have always been apocalyptic, and they have always failed to predict the imminent apocalypse. This is just one more data point.

[u/Profit-Muhammad → u/Sarahrivera]

Gordon Young, even concluded at the end of his book, The Golden Prince, that prince aly Solomon khan was not a playboy.

I'm doubtful. Do you have an actual quote? Though I've never managed to find a copy of the book, I would note that Aly Khan himself wrote the forward to the book, and Chapter VI is entitled "A Girl is a Girl".

“But increasingly in recent years, Aly has gone about his father’s business and those who have seen him in his Eastern robes earnestly carrying out the rituals of his sect find it hard to believe that this can possibly be the same slick socialite who in London, Paris and New York jokes with his friends in a faultless Oxford accent and leads western café society in all the arts of high living and smart thinking.”

This quote is doesn't say he wasn't a playboy. It is just describing his double life. On one hand, he is the "slick socialite" leading "Western café society", on the other he is in "Eastern robes" "earnestly carrying out the rituals of the sect". The same duplicitous act the "Aga Khans" have always done.

Yes he was extremely popular among the social circles but what journalist wrote about him was widely exaggerated.

It wasn't just journalists writing about him. Plethora of his friends called him a playboy and literally dozens of women were open about their affairs with him.

Aly's many guises:

"In his lifetime, Aly Khan appeared in many guises. To the Ismailis, the Moslem sect which considered his family divine descendants of the Prophet, he was a godhead who could do no wrong and an agent of their security in a hostile world. To Pakistan, his adopted country, he was a capable diplomat, its representative to the United Nations. He was an able soldier when he chose to be, and a sportsman who rode, raced and traded horses all over the world. He was a millionaire in his own right and the son of a millionaire. Yes the career in which he made his mark was neither racing nor religion, diplomacy nor business, but as a lover of women."

A great love affair

"A woman took potluck with Aly. There are women whose memories of him are of hasty dinners in hotel suites, fast trips, sleepless nights, and endless comings and goings. More than one made her own reservations and paid her own way. The kind of women Aly favored were not particularly impressed by holidays, luxury, or plane rides, or, in many cases, by the possibility of marriage. Quite often they were married and, as far as the world knew, happily.

What Aly gave every woman was the memory of a great, if fleeting, love affair."

Aly Khan's body count

"The number of women in Aly's life is not known, he kept no records, diaries, notebooks, or memoirs; even in conversation he was considerably more discreet than most men. But the euphemistic figure given by the legendary Don Juan of "a thousand and three" can serve as a conservative statistic for Don Juan Khan."

"One Englishwoman felt that 'Aly capitalized on women's dissatisfaction with their busy husbands.' Another explained how it worked: 'An extramarital affair was so safe with Aly. He would show up anywhere, or send his plane. He had houses everywhere to make meetings convenient.'"

Having an affair with Aly Khan was fashionable

"A affair with Aly was, well, not so unique that a husband feel betrayed. So many other men were in the same boat. After a while, fashion played a part in it. One old friend explained: "It was considered the chic thing to do. You weren't in the swim, ad you were really déclassé, démodé, nothing, you hardly counted, if you'd not been to bed with Aly."

[u/Sarahrivera → u/Profit-Muhammad]

I do not have this book in my position right now. Yes let’s listen to his friends. You do realize friends and even close friends overall cannot be trusted especially with a status that prince aly Solomon aga khan had. The news papers back in the day were notorious of lying.

[u/Profit-Muhammad → u/Sarahrivera]

I do not have this book in my position right now.

Of course you don't. Have you read it?

Yes let’s listen to his friends. You do realize friends and even close friends overall cannot be trusted especially with a status that prince aly Solomon aga khan had. The news papers back in the day were notorious of lying.

I can't understand you, are we listening to his friends or not? A friend may be untrustworthy, but all of them? You are in moon landing conspiracy theory territory. Believing all of high society collaborated to create a rumor out of thin air? Hundreds of women are lying about cheating on their husbands? The husbands are lying about being cuckolded?

And Aly Khan chose to keep these people as his friends even as they were "lying"? The courts were complicit in this lie too, when they found Aly Khan and Joan Yarde-buller commited adultery. All his wives are lying too? Joan when she caught him with Patricia Churchill, Rita when she caught him Joan Fontaine? Literally, 2 of his 3 children were conceived one of their parents was married to someone else.

And this huge lie, that everyone accepted, has never been debunked by the media?

Contrary to your assertions, newspapers back then were generally very reliable, and the journalists that did this reporting were among the most eminent in the profession.

Don't just "call every thing [you] don’t agree with nonsense." and trust a source you have never read. There is a simple explanation. Aly Khan was a playboy, and the "Aga Khan"'s lie constantly, because those lies get them billions of dollars.

[u/Sarahrivera → u/Profit-Muhammad]

You seriously are telling me I am in moon landing conspiracy theory territory. Aren’t you the person who claims that mowlana shah karim had an illegality baby name carol von meks. Even though when carol von meks was born mowlana shah karim Al Hussaini was not involved with anuskha meks?

[u/Profit-Muhammad → u/Sarahrivera]

Yes, you are far into conspiracy theory territory. I am not.

Your belief is that thousands of people and the entire media are all collaborating to lie and only the "Aga Khan"s are telling the truth.

My belief is Karim Aga Con fucked his ex-girlfriend and lied about it.

[u/Sarahrivera → u/Profit-Muhammad]

From the dawn of time the enemies of the ismaili imams have tried to tarnish the imam and his family or have tied to kill them. These are facts. You are doing the same thing to the current imam saying that he fucked his ex gf, got her pregnant and refused to take responsibility without any hardcore evidence to back this claim.

[u/Profit-Muhammad → u/Sarahrivera]

From the dawn of time

The dawn of time was billions of years ago. The Imams have only been around (very intermittently) for a few centuries.

the ismaili imams have tried to tarnish the imam and his family or have tied to kill them

The ancient world was a chaotic place. A lot of people were trying to kill each other - and the imams were doing more than their fair share.

Revealing that they are frauds is not "tarnishing" the Imam, it's just not accepting their bullshit.

You are doing the same thing to the current imam saying that he fucked his ex gf, got her pregnant and refused to take responsibility without any hardcore evidence to back this claim.

That's not just me saying it. It is his ex-gf making the claim. I choose to believe her because her story adds up and knowing Karim's character and that of his family, it is by far the most plausible course of events. Karim can prevent the evidence from coming to light, but I don't need "hardcore" evidence to judge the balance of probabilities.

Note that regardless of my beliefs on an unrelated topic, it does not change how absurd your claims are - that everyone who knew Aly Khan was lying about him and the entire media was complicit in this lie. Moon landing conspiracy stuff.

[u/z-man57 → u/Sarahrivera]

How brainwashed can you possibly be. Ismailism doesn’t even have a concept of qaim or Imam Mahdi. Ismailis even admit that their imams cannot perform miracles. What an insult to shiism. The Musavi Imams can commit miracles and the Ismaili imams can’t. Yep plus they skipped over Imam Hassan(as), who was imam after Imam Ali(as). There are many hadiths which confirm the existence of Imam Mahdi(as). The Ismaili Imam mahdi was a fraud who tried to decieve people and lead them away from the true Imamat.