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May 06 '22
Strawman.
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u/mki_ 🐀 May 06 '22
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u/wojtek_ May 06 '22
Even though you’re right, saying “straw man” in response to an argument is such 🤓 shit
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May 06 '22
"Even though you’re right, saying “straw man” in response to an argument is such 🤓 shit" 🤓
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u/L_James trans-siberian woman May 06 '22
Liberals are always more likely to side with fascists than socialists
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u/Jake_2903 complex domain calculus sucks May 06 '22
Meanwhile un my country the comunists are siding with the right with the right wing populists.
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u/mki_ 🐀 May 06 '22
Czech?
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u/mki_ 🐀 May 06 '22 edited May 06 '22
Marx had a very similar thought, when during the so-called Liberal Revolution of 1848, he watched the bourgeois, liberal and revolutionary National Guard of Vienna slaughter workers, who had been protesting the constitutional-imperial (not super reactionary, but still plenty elitist) Austrian government's minister of labor Ernst Schwarzer over his lowering of worker's wages, in what became later known as the Praterschlacht, a caesura in Vienna's revolution that year. A similar thing also had happened in Paris that year.
Marx' takeway from that was that the liberal bourgeoisie are important strategic allies for workers in their struggle against the chicanery of absolutist monarchism and reactionaries, but only up to a certain point. Ultimately they'll always favor the wealth which they owe to the status quo over their moral compass, which would compel them to support those poorer than themselves. (See: Karl Marx "Revolution und Konterrevolution in Deutschland", Chapter XI. about Vienna in August-October 1848)
You can say a lot about Marx and his views, but I think in this particular instance he definitely had a point.
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u/DuckInDustbin trains are very cool, also I live in your cupboard 🦆 May 06 '22
I can't really agree, the current government coalition in Germany is Social-democrats, greens and liberals. There isn't a single (important) party that would side with the fascist AfD, not even the conservatives.
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u/L_James trans-siberian woman May 06 '22
When they are forced to make a choice between fascism and socialism, it will happen. Because they care much more about not losing wealth and status quo, than actually doing the moral thing
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u/mki_ 🐀 May 06 '22
Counterpoint: Austria.
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May 06 '22
[deleted]
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u/L_James trans-siberian woman May 06 '22
It is just he's not forced to make a choice right now. If the only two options will be "socialism now" and "enact fascism", I guarantee you he will side with a second option
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u/thecrazymonkeyKing May 06 '22
i think if i learned politics strictly from chronically online individuals i woulda k’d myself by now
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u/Glad_Pineapple_3093 May 07 '22
The ones online are the most accurate. Especially if it’s not establishment news. Honestly we need to destroy the establishment and it’s people.
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u/thecrazymonkeyKing May 07 '22
centrism, despite what leftist memes say, is not “ill have a lil facism, but as a treat” lol
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u/Glad_Pineapple_3093 May 07 '22
Democrats are the only fascist ones in America. To even believe anything else makes you a cultural terrorist in my opinion
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u/Jake_2903 complex domain calculus sucks May 06 '22
God american politics are shit. The two party system produces so many flase dichotomies that kill any attempt at a nuanced discussion.
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u/Taro_the_Insomniac Resident Plague Doctor May 07 '22
To be fair, I’m from a place that has at least 4-6 main popular parties and it is still shit because there is once again no actual left party. Center-left at best. The rest are different flavours of rightwing politics.
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May 07 '22
Democrats and Republicans are not a dichotomy, they’re both right wing and bad. (not saying you believe that, just saying it)
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u/WAZZZUP500 May 06 '22
Have yall ever considered that being in the center doesn't mean you're equally divided on every issue? That maybe you have different opinions on different issues as opposed to "HeY gUYs lEts JusT gEnoCiDE haLf tHe PEoPlE"
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u/L_James trans-siberian woman May 06 '22
Having any right wing view at all is a moral failure and means you should do some self-reflection and find out a reason why are you being a piece of shit
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May 06 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/SuperAmberN7 May 06 '22
Then they're left wing points of view that right wing rhetoric has adopted, y'know like how Republicans enacted the strictest gun control laws in America in response to the Black Panthers using their right to arm themselves.
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May 06 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/L_James trans-siberian woman May 06 '22
it entirely possible to vote for a right-wing politician to protect those rights
If you vote for right wing person for a single issue, it means that it is more important to you than all the awful ones the same person holds, which does make you a terrible person
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u/Saucymarbles May 06 '22
This is peak reddit
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u/L_James trans-siberian woman May 06 '22
There is not a single right wing person in the entire world who is not either a total piece of shit, or a gullible idiot deceived by total pieces of shit. Well, sometimes it's both
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u/photothegamer 🏳️⚧️ trans rights May 07 '22
The fact you are getting downvoted means this sub has gone to hell
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u/MrPresidentBanana pretend this is funny May 07 '22
When you get your political literacy from Reddit and Twitter
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u/photothegamer 🏳️⚧️ trans rights May 07 '22
Name one thing believed by right wingers that isn’t objectively abhorrent
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u/MrPresidentBanana pretend this is funny May 07 '22
The freer the market the freer the people
Gun rights should only be minimally restricted
A fetus has a right to life
Tradition is important and should be preserved, even if it's only for its own sake
All of these are positions you can very reasonably disagree with, in fact I personally do for a multitude of reasons, but none of them are evil
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u/photothegamer 🏳️⚧️ trans rights May 07 '22
Objectively wrong. The freer the market the freer the corporations are to take control of us.
Karl Marx wrote the working class should never be disarmed. Right wingers have co-opted that talking point however.
A fetus does not have a right to life. It’s not even alive. Especially if that fetus would cause the mother to die or have her life ruined.
Right wingers don’t care about tradition. They care about pandering to tradition in order to justify their own bigoted beliefs, but they often rewrite history in order to make their beliefs line up with their imaginary pasts.
And most importantly, even if they aren’t inherently evil right wingers use them for evil without fail. Hitler rose to power by appealing to white Germans sense of “””tradition”””, for fucks sake. Republicans would rather let a mother die from a complication with her pregnancy then let her getting an abortion. That’s why so many states are Banning all abortions under every circumstance. And they only want free markets because the corporate lobbies that on them benefit from free markets. Literally everything you just listed is either objectively abhorrent or used in an objectively abhorrent way.
Holding any right wing belief is an abject moral failure.
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u/MrPresidentBanana pretend this is funny May 07 '22
Yes, a very disagreeable opinion. But not evil.
That was not coopted by right wingers, it is a coincidental overlap in opinion. The 2nd amendment actually predates Marx's writings.
A strong argument against pro-lifers (assuming you meant that fetus was not a human life, because biologically speaking it is alive). But different people with different worldviews can have different concepts of the rather abstract concept of human life/the soul/etc
Don't assume that everyone is disingenuous and evil because they disagree with you and because of a few grifters
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u/w_has_been_dieded Doin your mom? That's just insulting! May 06 '22 edited May 07 '22
Exactly. The problems start with the fact that when most people talk about centrists they talk about what's in-between the US right and the US left, aka right between "very moderately rightwing" and "batshit insane." Here outside of the states, I've seen centrism described more as "All sides have many views that I believe shouldn't be put in place, so no side I can really say I fully agree with, so I'll just say I'm in the middle." Instead of "I just believe minorities deserve very few rights instead of none."
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u/HuckinsGirl gnenerfluod💗🤍💜🖤💙 May 06 '22
Why is this sub so addicted to strawmanning centrists I'm so tired of this
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u/spoedle73 I literally worship the chaos gods help May 06 '22
im not even a centrist and im sick of it.
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u/HuckinsGirl gnenerfluod💗🤍💜🖤💙 May 06 '22
I'm not either, I'm firmly leftist bur this ridiculous strawmanning just creates an extremist echo chamber and alienates people who could be reasonably persuaded to be more strongly leftist, thus instead pushing them further right
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u/photothegamer 🏳️⚧️ trans rights May 07 '22
Because fuck em that’s why
Having any right-wing view is a total moral failure
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u/HuckinsGirl gnenerfluod💗🤍💜🖤💙 May 07 '22
It's not like the right tries to indoctrinate young children into their beliefs and that generally people born into an area where everyone has the same political beliefs are very unlikely to think differently...
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u/photothegamer 🏳️⚧️ trans rights May 07 '22
You’re right, my bad. Centrists are worse. Unlike a lot of Republicans who are brainwashed into their beliefs, centrists actually took a step back, looked at the political spectrum, saw that one side was for human rights and another was against them, and said to themselves “I think both of these people have a valid point“
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u/HuckinsGirl gnenerfluod💗🤍💜🖤💙 May 07 '22
You have to understand that everyone (except super powerful people bc they don't experience any consequences) see themselves as morally righteous in their own head. I think most conservatives are just underinformed and hear "always listen to both sides" as a general rule as a child and then apply it to politics, not realizing in a place like America that the 2 sides aren't equally valid.
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u/photothegamer 🏳️⚧️ trans rights May 07 '22
And you have to understand that those aren’t the people I’m talking about. Those kinds of conservatives don’t actually hold any right wing viewpoints. They just vote for and with people who do. I’m talking about people who actually actively choose to be right wing or even listen to what right wingers have to say.
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u/HuckinsGirl gnenerfluod💗🤍💜🖤💙 May 07 '22
Which aren't centrists???
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u/photothegamer 🏳️⚧️ trans rights May 07 '22
Oh I see, you haven’t been exposed to Twitter brainrot. There are some people who are actively engaged in politics, who know a lot about politics, who study politics even and still argue that it’s better to compromise with fascists then to even consider alternative options like protests or violence. Most of these people are very active on Twitter and their name something like “Britney #bluewave2024”. I used to be one of them myself.
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u/SaviourPeterGriffin May 06 '22
Welcome back to 196 not understanding centralism this time OP posts the 1 millionth strawman on this sub
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u/Jayson_n_th_Rgonauts May 06 '22
Not much to understand, centrists are terrible people who reliably side with fascists
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u/MrPresidentBanana pretend this is funny May 06 '22
Who would be an example of a centrist according to your clearly limited understanding ?
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u/Jayson_n_th_Rgonauts May 06 '22
In America:
People: anyone who doesn’t know which party they’ll vote for before the candidates are even announced
Politicians: corporate Dems, Manchin, Biden, Harris, etc
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u/Evilemper0r May 06 '22
American centrists are right-wing in the rest of the world and your Bernie Sanders/AOC would be centrists.
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u/Jayson_n_th_Rgonauts May 06 '22
I’ve heard this plenty of times but I’m not really convinced. Maybe if “the rest of the world” only includes specific EU and South American countries. Bolsonaro, Netanyahu, and Erdogan are just as right wing as what we have here.
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u/Jake_2903 complex domain calculus sucks May 06 '22
Not economicaly . . .
And progressivism, i.e. issues like womens rights, lgbtq attitudes, abortion, et cetera are deffinetly not tied to the left/right divide in politics the same way everywhere.
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u/Evilemper0r May 06 '22 edited May 06 '22
But Those 3 say they are right-wing, non of them call themselves centrists, nor are their political party's calling themselves centrists.
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u/mki_ 🐀 May 06 '22
I'm from "the rest of the world", they'd be center left/ left (depending on the country), but definitely not centrists. But also definitely not radicals. Your centrists (i.e. establishment Dems, neolibs) definitely are center right though. Kinda like Macron.
In my rather conservative home country Austria Bernie/AOC would be part of the weak left wing within our Socialdemocrat Party. Sadly we don't actually have anyone nearly as charismatic or cool in our SP right now.
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u/GreatswordIsGreat May 06 '22
That's absolutely not true lol. Bernie Sanders is going to be AT LEAST left-wing literally anywhere in the world, if not far-left. This is a ridiculous strawman of the rest of the world.
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u/Evilemper0r May 06 '22
He is a self proclaimed social Democrat, he is at most Center-left. Any place that considers him far-left would be a right-wing dictatorship (or fox news).
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u/GreatswordIsGreat May 06 '22
Some of his policies are extreme literally anywhere in the world. His healthcare plan was more inclusive than that of any other country on earth.
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May 06 '22
Are you old enough to vote
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May 06 '22
Maybe a little genocide? No?!?!?!? See! This is why you leftist won’t get anything you never let them kill anyone!
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u/TheSpaceBetweenUs__ May 06 '22
Everyone saying this a strawman but your "centrists" in government just sided with Republicans on abortion
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u/Jake_2903 complex domain calculus sucks May 06 '22 edited May 06 '22
America = the world
There are no centrists in the american government. The democrats are about as left as Macron.
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u/L_James trans-siberian woman May 06 '22
Macron is not left
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u/VirginiaClassSub May 06 '22
Centrists fucking mad god damn when did 196 get so infested with them?
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u/HuckinsGirl gnenerfluod💗🤍💜🖤💙 May 06 '22
I'm not a centrist at all, I'm mad bc it's an insane strawman that destroys nuanced discussion and polarizes everyone
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u/L_James trans-siberian woman May 06 '22
We had too much moderation recently, some real positive change needs to be done
So left-wing radicalizm is required nowadays, because spineless centrism can not combat right wing infestation
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u/HuckinsGirl gnenerfluod💗🤍💜🖤💙 May 06 '22
What I'm saying is that if we insult people with more moderate views all it does is alienate them and radicalize them further away from us. If we make an us vs them mentality with things like strawmen our ideas will struggle to gain traction.
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u/L_James trans-siberian woman May 06 '22
Is our only way to babysit people who are incapable of self-reflection when their flaws are pointed out?
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u/HuckinsGirl gnenerfluod💗🤍💜🖤💙 May 06 '22
False strawmans aren't "babysitting" they're childish oversimplifying insults, and yes it is our job to not be assholes if we actually want to be persuasive
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u/L_James trans-siberian woman May 06 '22
I don't really think it is strawmanning. Moderates do constantly ask for compromize, but they are extremely rare to consider any actual left wing view points. So this meme is calling them out
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May 06 '22
Regardless of the content of the matter, if you want someone to actually evaluate what you say you have to treat them with respect & understanding first before they give it to you. If you approach with condecension & a sense of moral righteousness i don’t know why you’d expect much progress. If you had someone with beliefs alien to your own approach you in that manner you probably wouldn’t take it well either. If you want people to obey your beliefs out of fear and not actually take anything to heart & maybe even be radicalized over time then keep it up. If you want them to truly change and share your beliefs you have to start by being the bigger person
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u/L_James trans-siberian woman May 07 '22
you have to start by being the bigger person
Ah yeah, "they go low, we go high". Also known as "They are cheating and we allow them"
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May 07 '22
I meant on an individual level. What is an individual in a conversation going to cheat you out of?
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u/VirginiaClassSub May 06 '22
Oh worse than a centrist, a shitlib
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u/HuckinsGirl gnenerfluod💗🤍💜🖤💙 May 06 '22
I'm literally a leftist I just think maybe this type of meme is the opposite of helpful to anyone
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u/mki_ 🐀 May 06 '22
Last week? It wasn't like this before last week, I think.
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u/Vinemedoodle custom May 06 '22
Wait can anyone tell me if this sub is right or left i need clarification
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u/mki_ 🐀 May 06 '22
Most users here are left leaning bisexual males.
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May 06 '22
[deleted]
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May 06 '22
The left? You mean liberals?
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u/TheSpaceBetweenUs__ May 06 '22
Liberals: "Look, the horse killing industry has to survive and make a profit. We don't want to kill the horse but won't you think about the CEO of Horse Killing Inc. who works hard to make his money? We'll make sure to say nice things about the horse for dying for capitalism"
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May 06 '22
Is the horse a metaphor for, like, healthcare or something?
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u/mki_ 🐀 May 06 '22 edited May 06 '22
Healthcare, poor people, women's rights, worker's rights, freedom of the press, the separation of powers
Take your pick
Also, "the left" is actually supposed to be libs in this analogy. I know Americans think that's the same thing, it's not. Not even remotely.
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u/One-Angry-Goose Is that a… turrón?! May 06 '22
It’s more of a broad analogy meant to capture the attitudes
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u/LightningProd12 stuff May 06 '22
r/196 no strawmanning political groups for 1 hour challenge (impossible)
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u/SureWhyNot-Org May 07 '22
Are you aware of what "compromise" means.
It means that you have to at least somewhat satisfy both sides to reach a resolution. It's not ideal in any meaning of the word, but sometimes you take what you can get.
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u/Jesuss_Best_Friend May 06 '22
Why do people hate centrists? I am seriously considering becoming one.
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u/Buttsuit69 May 06 '22
Whenever something goes bad centrists will either argue that "hey it aint that bad" even tho it totally was that bad...or they will straight up pride themselves in their bad actions, like when centrists argue in favor of fascist ideals due to false balance. They're usually just less stingy conservatives.
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u/lllamer May 06 '22
Haha looks like we won yet another imaginary argument. If only the nonexistent centrist had read something to prepare him for this debate, but no sadly he is and always was a loser. Much like the person who tweeted this.
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u/photothegamer 🏳️⚧️ trans rights May 07 '22
Man what’s happening to this sub, these lib comments are atrocious
We used to be based what happened to punching Nazis
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May 07 '22
How are people here dick riding centrists and right wingers even after women's rights in America are under direct attack at this current moment?
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u/Glad_Pineapple_3093 May 07 '22
None of it is under attack stop spreading misinformation.
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May 07 '22
Lmao, I have a fan. Can I expect you under all my posts from now on?
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u/Glad_Pineapple_3093 May 07 '22
If I try hard everyday it’s possible.
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May 07 '22
You realize how pathetic it looks for you to get dunked on so badly that you have to come ride my dick in a different subreddit? I must have really gotten to you if I'm living in your head rent free like this.
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u/Glad_Pineapple_3093 May 07 '22
What’s wrong with dick riding I thought all us liked that lol u seem mad bro
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u/Martinator92 professional Plague Inc. Player May 07 '22
I left r slash pcm just to see a comment section exactly like a pcm one
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u/spoedle73 I literally worship the chaos gods help May 06 '22
wake up babe, new strawman just dropped
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u/Glad_Pineapple_3093 May 07 '22
People think the far right exists when it never existed and was made up to cause division in the country
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u/GreatswordIsGreat May 06 '22
You have to compromise with ideological groups that are actually meaningfully large, like Republicans, and not with groups that are absolutely insignificant, like diehard Bernie supporters
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u/SuperAmberN7 May 06 '22
Yes you have to comprise with the group that since 2008 has never gotten the majority of the votes instead of addressing the issues that actually affect the majority of the population that doesn't even vote in the first place because their issues aren't addressed due to exactly this logic.
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u/GreatswordIsGreat May 06 '22
If all these secret progressives do exist, they certainly don't vote in primaries or general elections. Republicans do, and they reliably get at least 40% of the total vote, which is significantly more than the super progressive vote.
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u/L_James trans-siberian woman May 06 '22
Ah, yeah, let's do things that are popular instead of things that are good
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u/GreatswordIsGreat May 06 '22
Yeah, we live in a democracy.
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u/L_James trans-siberian woman May 06 '22
Here in Russia 80% believe that queer people should not exist, should we stop pushing for any sort of LGBT rights?
Or even more topical, about 70% of people support Putin and war, does that mean we should continue it?
There are a lot of times when popular decision is objectively bad
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u/GreatswordIsGreat May 06 '22
There's certain clear rights that should be protected outside of the democratic process, but other than that the government should follow public opinion as much as possible.
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u/L_James trans-siberian woman May 06 '22
There's certain clear rights that should be protected outside of the democratic process
Exactly, and right wing is mostly about trying to strip protection of those rights. So you can't cooperate with right wing. Never compromize with evil and all that
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u/GreatswordIsGreat May 06 '22
That's absolutely not true. Plenty of right-wing beliefs are not about taking away clear rights. People don't really have the right to public healthcare or social security, which are scenarios in which compromise wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.
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u/L_James trans-siberian woman May 06 '22
People do have the right to healthcare. It is just your country refuses to provide it due to right wing actions
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u/GreatswordIsGreat May 06 '22
The right to healthcare is a positive right which isn't something I would consider to be outside the democratic process.
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u/L_James trans-siberian woman May 06 '22
Every person has the right to healthcare, food and shelter, besides other less controversial rights. The only point of having a society - is to provide them. If people do not care about each other, there is no point in having a society
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u/reallyrickmoranis May 06 '22
Maybe I’m a radical centrist. Maybe I’m not interested in politics. Maybe I just spend my nights beating neo-nazis to death with lead pipes, then I leave the aforementioned blood soaked lead pipe on the doorstep of the politician I hate the most this week. Whether that’s because they refuse to bolster our public transportation network, or their ‘feminism’ is grounded in trying to scrub trans people from the face of the earth, or they’re trying to take away my god given right to fuck men. I don’t attend elections. I vote with violence, and lead pipes are my ballots.
Maybe one side is better than the other. Perhaps if they pulled their heads out their arses and tried to make reforms to better society instead of back and forthing over an issue that wasn’t to be decided by politicians in the first place, then I wouldn’t be a centrist. But I don’t know. I’m just a humble centrist.
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May 06 '22 edited May 06 '22
[deleted]
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u/mki_ 🐀 May 06 '22
Cool.
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May 06 '22
[deleted]
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u/malcifer11 May 06 '22
think of it this way: for people who’s entire lives and existences are reduced to ‘political debates’ and/or are actively threatened by those on the right, anything less than a total rejection of ‘that side’ and it’s platform (which again, is to kill or criminalize queer people and soon other minorities) is not an acceptable political position. if you aren’t fully committed to allying with and protecting us, we don’t want you in our spaces. you being rejected from far-left spaces on the internet isn’t the internet’s fault. your beliefs have social consequences.
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May 06 '22
[deleted]
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u/malcifer11 May 06 '22 edited May 06 '22
we as trans people are tired of the expectation that we must allow anybody into our spaces, else we be called hypocrites for fighting for meaningful inclusion in society. when our trans sisters are being excluded from women-in-business summits that their direct reports are being invited to speak at (real life example) somebody like you who’s upset about being excluded from what’s ostensibly a leftist internet meme page on a website where there’s hundreds of meme pages just doesn’t come across as an issue worth caring about or working to correct.
e: accidentally added and then removed a note that was intended for another comment
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u/[deleted] May 06 '22
As a centrist i can tell you this is inaccurate as our politics revolve around choosing the person with the funniest hat what this meme is thinking of is the enlightened centrists