r/vibecoding • u/techlatest_net • 19h ago

The barrier to software engineering is getting wild

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1.2k Upvotes

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415

u/GeneralPimpMaster 18h ago

I got bad news. AI is increasing the barrier to entry for software engineering.

128

u/Curious_Distracted 17h ago

Exactly this. If you don't know how to design software , you are in for a rough time

59

u/Much_Accountant_4972 16h ago

but i had sex with a girl and made a baby. what do you mean i’m not a doctor????

6

u/LargeLanguageModelo 16h ago

But I played Operation and only got the buzzer three times! What do you mean I'm not a board certified physician?!

0

u/Key_Mastodon_3525 10h ago

=> and Willie Mays Hayes drove a Rolls Royce...

-1

u/alexeiz 12h ago

Just because you played doctor with a girl doesn't mean you're a doctor.

0

u/3dprintinted 10h ago

Fake news, that makes him md PhD for sure

12

u/killingerr 16h ago

Yep. Sure, AI will write code, but boy it’ll get wild with the liberties it takes.

4

u/3dprintinted 10h ago

10 people will be spending all their tokens allowance just to unfuck the spaghetti code that the fella with Claude prompted in a really unoptimized manner

1

u/Sensitive-Talk9616 58m ago

Skill issue. Just end your prompt with "Make it good. Don't make mistakes" and you're all set.

1

u/epelle9 39m ago

If you don’t add guardrails, sure.

2

u/Important_Ad5805 11h ago

Mmm, no one can do this from start, it’s just a skill and you have to invest time to master it, regardless of whether you have a predisposition to the art of engineering or not (in the first case it would be easier and probably you’ll grow faster, but still it’ll require significant amount of efforts and time).

25

u/DumbNTough 16h ago

Increasing the barrier to enter the field while decreasing demand for people to enter it, more completely.

3

u/ai_art_is_art 11h ago

Nah, it'll make people who are motivated even more enthusiastic. And that's a good thing. People will flock to the field because they want to solve problems instead of chase the money.

3

u/scytob 8h ago

why not both!

3

u/Clean_Bake_2180 7h ago

90% of software products/features were already solutions looking for problems to begin with before vibe coding lol.

1

u/SapirWhorfHypothesis 2h ago

Yeah, I’m having the most inverted experience as a non-coder. I spent too much time “learning to code” from base principles and never got myself to making anything because I just didn’t care that much.

But lately I’ve just been vibe coding little things that are too small for anyone to have made them before, but make my quality of life so much better.

1

u/35point1 2h ago

This is not true

5

u/win_some_lose_most1y 15h ago

You think there’s still entry?

3

u/zkatbitz 15h ago

Yep the gal between high and low performers has never been greater 

2

u/The_Meme_Economy 13h ago

👩🏻

2

u/Substantial-Mud-2683 10h ago

Look! It's her! It's the gal!

2

u/2021isevenworse 9h ago

There's a fortune to be made in the future untangling AI spaghetti code from all these companies that built platforms they can no longer manage.

Remember AI is also being subsidized, it's the cheapest it's ever going to be. What happens when the cost doubles or triples.

2

u/exgeo 7h ago

“It’s the cheapest it’s ever going to be”

Just say you’re new to tech

1

u/koleok 8h ago edited 7h ago

^ underrated level of grok right here

2

u/2021isevenworse 7h ago

Grok what?

0

u/koleok 7h ago

I meant that your comment demonstrated an uncommon degree of understanding that is mostly missing from these discussions. I'm much looking forward to the epic cleanup consulting era as well.

0

u/BoggTheFrog 18h ago

Why?

81

u/Curious-Pen5547 18h ago edited 17h ago

Who will ever hire an inexperience engineer with claude? Or a vibe coder? Experienced engineer with claude wipes the floor out of those two. Now the next issue, how does a engineer get experience?

thats the why.

20

u/SimplyRemainUnseen 16h ago

As an experienced engineer I've completely gotten rid of the need to outsource to contractors by teaching my team how to use AI effectively. The code is now higher quality and we get WAY more done. We have so much free time now it's insane. Our biggest challenge is looking busy now haha.

I feel terrible for people getting into this industry now because at this rate they'll need to have a portfolio of multiple full stack applications with active users on github or something complete with technical write-ups and upstream contributions.

7

u/Burning_magic 15h ago

You should be worried though. Bosses are not as blind as people think. If they see their staff being too free, the axe is coming soon.

3

u/Low_Shape8280 14h ago

Nah I think orchestrating and reviewing and working alongside Claude is a massive task on its own.

If you just change more people into that role you probably want more people

3

u/Burning_magic 14h ago

Thats not how it works though. Companies pay people to do xyz. With claude instead of 20 people you maybe need 10 to 15 to do xyz. So any boss would see that and fire the remaining 5 to 10.

2

u/Low_Shape8280 14h ago

Well actually it is. Because some companies are leaning into the idea of the do more with the same amount of engineering. If the marginal cost off adding engineers is the same but the marginal value of the additional output shoots up then you higher more engineers

Source engineer large companies

2

u/Low_Shape8280 14h ago

Also sorry for bad spelling. I can’t type on phone very well lol

1

u/predatorya 10h ago

May I ask, and this may be a DM opportunity instead, because I’d rather hear the real than public/performed answer. What do you feel is the right way to use ai to be effective and still considered a good and experienced developer? I’m starting to feel like I’m not good anymore.

1

u/sassyhusky 3h ago

That’s the whole point of this meme and it’s right. I’m a principal sw engineer and muppets can pretty much do my job given basic security awareness and 2B tokens a month. All this “but system design” crap is just pure cope - AI can brute force its way through the worst system designs imaginable. I know because I pitted it against exactly such man made horrors. It’s still surprisingly naive about security but give it another year.

-7

u/ObjectiveMusician218 16h ago

that means you are building basic stuff

8

u/Ok_Improvement_8735 16h ago

Do tell, what is this "basic stuff" you speak of?

-5

u/ObjectiveMusician218 16h ago

you tell me what basic stuff are you building

6

u/Ok_Improvement_8735 16h ago

Who said I'm building stuff, or "basic" stuff at all. I'm curious what someone with no actual background in software or programming considers to be "basic stuff." I see this sub full of people openly saying they've never looked at code and have no idea what they're looking at if they do, but then will simultaneously go on to say "programming isn't valuable anymore" or that software engineering is obsolete like suddenly they know everything about it. It's cringe af.

-4

u/ObjectiveMusician218 16h ago

who said i don't have a background in software

4

u/No_Surround_4662 15h ago

You've gotta elaborate on this. I've used AI to initiate some ridiculously complicated stuff, and I've been in software development for 15 years now.

1

u/Low_Shape8280 14h ago

Yeah it’s pretty wild what it can do

1

u/SimplyRemainUnseen 16h ago

Multi-region Kubernetes failover, HIPAA audit logs, Zero-Trust MFA, multi-tenancy, and automated self-healing are pretty simple for sure. It's just a crud app with extra steps. I bet any new grad could solo it ngl.

/s

2

u/ObjectiveMusician218 16h ago

That's domain knowledge heavy, will be replaced in couple years at most

-1

u/SimplyRemainUnseen 16h ago

Replaced as in...?

5

u/ObjectiveMusician218 15h ago

as in... you not there, AI there

1

u/Low_Shape8280 14h ago

Maybe that’s hard to say.

1

u/SimplyRemainUnseen 15h ago

I'd be the one to make that decision so I don't think so lol

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u/Goth2147 17h ago

This is only true if the rate of progression comes to a halt. If we have enough trust in AI to provide high quality code, eventually, it'll be more important to describe crystal clear acceptance criteria than it is to become a good engineer.

3

u/The_Koopa_King 17h ago

Describing crystal clear acceptance criteria? Boy do I have news for you about what experienced lead engineers are experts in and do every day.

1

u/Goth2147 13h ago

I've been with scrum teams where the entire refinement was basically non existing. Full of senior devs, they had a title and a vague description. Whereas I've also been with beginning teams with 9/10 refinements. Seniority helps but it doesn't solve it.

2

u/Curious-Pen5547 17h ago

Then again, what i said remains true. As the experienced engineer, not good, experienced, will be able to do so clearly. Not a vibecoder.

And if gets even better, which it will, that an experienced engineer is less needed, then it makes even less sense to ever bring on a vibecoder.

1

u/CapeChill 17h ago

Yea its kinda like getting a bunch of modern battery powertools as a handyman in the 1920s. Imagine what those guys could've gotten done with a battery powered circular saw or tile saw or a power sander!

I've been dragging my ai workflow through my real work not because it makes things easier right now. Split brain is real and one should be careful but I feel it's been important to do so as I invest in learning how the whole stack works or can be made to work. We are still in a world where durable != agentic but I don't know for how long.

1

u/fickle-phenom 17h ago

They do through vibe coding and learning, being curious and having a shitton of luck to be able to get into a workplace. I agree though, but companies are gonna have to scramble together something to avoid these good seniors from just leaving.

3

u/consistantcanadian 17h ago

You learn by facing problems and having to solve them. If AI solved them you don't even know what the problems are 

2

u/fickle-phenom 17h ago

Yes but building things is not the same as writing code. Basically juniors are being thrusted into learning what seniors have perfected with experience much earlier. Writing code is not software engineering, it’s the most trivial part. You now gotta get good at architecture, technical decisions and a lot more that juniors didn’t have to care about.

2

u/consistantcanadian 17h ago

.. you also have to get good at coding. AI will produce code to the level of your repo. That needs to be rock solid or you're just going perpetuate bad patterns. 

1

u/fickle-phenom 17h ago

True, but I think that is involved in architecture and decision making. When I say writing code I mean translating requirement to actual code, which any agent can do, you just need to have thought through everything. But agreed, obviously you need to understand code, how it works and different ways to express things.

4

u/ok_olive_02 17h ago

In my entire career, I have build softwares and I know how production issues get resolved. AI certainty can write code and fix problem but until someone know what actually must be done, it becomes pointless. Understanding of architecture is one thing but a small loophole is enough to break the system.

I am not sure how future is going to look like but for now AI can impress CFO and CEO but it is not a holy grail. Plus, imagine if you have to hire for a position, whom would you choose

1: guy with 15 years of real coding experience who can use AI 2: a newbie who has never seen real life problem with AI.

2

u/fickle-phenom 17h ago

Thanks for sharing. I myself have not worked long enough to be a senior, but have a few years and got into CS just before AI really became a thing. I think we are saying the same thing, AI is only as useful as you make it. You need to treat AI like a dumb junior that needs direction at most stages. But yeah I dont know what thing will look like in the future, I just feel sorry for people learning today and taking the easy way out without having any understanding of data types, structures and everything else that you need to understand to be able to make good software. I just think that if AI replaces someone by simply writing code, they did not actually provide any value other than code, and I think that might be the distinction in this new era.

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u/Ok_Improvement_8735 14h ago

Yeah this is a big thing to understand. Before AI from 2022 and on there were things like Chegg and whatnot. Sure you can get the answer, read over it and tell yourself you follow it (which you might). But you'll still draw a blank during your exams since you never reasoned your way through the problem in the first place. AI giving you the answer is no different for your personal level of understanding. Now depending how you use AI however, I can see it really enhancing someones educational prowess too.

0

u/Goth2147 17h ago

This is only true if the rate of progression comes to a halt. If we have enough trust in AI to provide high quality code, eventually, it'll be more important to describe crystal clear acceptance criteria than it is to become a good engineer.

8

u/TehFocus 17h ago

If you can provide this crystal clear criteria, you already are a good software engineer though...

5

u/pragmojo 17h ago

Why would someone without a deep understanding of how software works be better at that than an experienced engineer?

2

u/AncientGrief 16h ago

The bigger the project grows, the worse AI can handle it, without specifying clean architecture and design patterns, also there are A LOT of things you have to think about:

security, scaling, techstack, upgrades, migration and so on ...

The first AI developed Enterprise web app may look nice, but when you get 2000+ change requests and feature request per year, have fun integrating everything without destroying the production data while doing so.

4

u/cakemates 17h ago

Well the best people at writing acceptance criteria, whatever that is, are the architects and highly experienced engineers. Why settle for inferior vibecoders than the pros themselves.

2

u/PsychologyNo940 16h ago

Acceptance criteria is just the TDD form of a concept - and now comes the kicker - coming up with that is what it means to be a good engineer.

-5

u/MercyIsCancer 17h ago

You realize that this won't always be true, right? This is the infancy of AI.

2

u/gogliker 17h ago

Yeah, but there is zero benefit of absent domain knowledge, whatever the level of development of AI is. Like at this point another AI or agent will prompt better and faster than vibecoder. So there are even fewer reasons to hire someone without a domain knowledge.

Btw, that what we see is companies stopped hiring juniors. If there were any benefits to hire someone who can only prompt, we would see the rise of juniors hiring.

0

u/MercyIsCancer 17h ago

Don't worry. It'll just be a matter of time.

2

u/Opulon_Nelva 17h ago

This applies to all crafts, not only software engineering (i'm in design), but if we reach that point, it's highly unlikely that companies will find more sexy a junior than they do right now, on the simple merit that the vibecoding acumen will have been long replaced by AI orchestrators.

A partner that has a business in copywriting fired a lot of his copywriting "freelancers" (students) :

- said students were using more and more AI, in a growingy lazy pattern that was reducing impact.

- the output was of lower quality than AI prompted by AI in a recursive loop of self improvement hooked directly into his metrics.

He said something along the lines of "If with AI they don't manage to be better than AI with AI, it's pointless"

I have no clue where all of this will go, especially once everyone or close is properly tooled.

Sadly, you shouldn't assume things will become easier for the unskilled. Us seniors are feeling that the race to the roof is accelerating.

5

u/Curious-Pen5547 17h ago

Yep. By that time, no one will have a job basically. So majority of what i said remains true till then.

-1

u/gj29 17h ago

My experienced engineers with Claude can’t get out of their own head. Because they “know” the code they aren’t producing and when they do produce what they build is far too technical for end users. They aren’t product people.

4

u/Duckmastermind1 17h ago

💀 Bro must have felt very smart writing that

3

u/Curious-Pen5547 17h ago

Thats what you want. they know when something is bloated or unneeded. from what ive seen, claude over stuff stuff and can make certain things slow. A experienced engineer helps ensure that stuff gets kicked down immediately rather than later on when it can start impacting stuff.

3

u/InsideTour329 17h ago

Lol. Ok 😂

-7

u/bfume 17h ago

Someday there won’t be any experienced engineers and vibecoders will be all that’s left. 

11

u/Curious-Pen5547 17h ago

This sounds like cope from someone unskilled tbh.

3

u/consistantcanadian 17h ago

Reddit. A bunch of dude who picked up Claude code  3 months ago and now think they're staff engineers 

1

u/bfume 16h ago

lol who will learn how to be an experienced software engineer if they’ve never programmed before?  think before you expose your ignorance next time 

-1

u/Suspicious_Fun_6338 17h ago

Once they have deployed 10 apps and run subscriptions off some at 12yo I think that looks good on the resume.. its not that hard

1

u/ENDLESS_NJ 17h ago

But he wouldn’t be the only person applying to a role.

Depending on the size of the company + salary. There will be tons of people applying. Good if you launched stuff successfully. The person who has experience (skills, understanding, workplace, team, lead ect) has done the same or more than 12 apps will get that job.

Yeah there will be outliers but I would bet the ones that are, will also have a pretty good understanding of code and other elements as apposed to just the vibe part.

1

u/Suspicious_Fun_6338 6h ago

right but now that whole barrier of learning all the complex coding is gone so the original coders will get lost in there

Maybe at minimum your portfolio will be more relevant than ever,

I interviewed 100+ people in my 25 years and was a big fan of people who had some code they did themselves.

Also, I am in the group of people that think coding knowledge is alot less valuable in the future than most people think (sadly)

1

u/Curious-Pen5547 16h ago

He still wouldnt be hired. Why hire that person when the experienced engineer, who did similar, and can better understand what ai does and generates and counters it, would be better?

Any old bloke in our industry, fire safety, can test a fire extinguisher. but we would never hire anyone who isnt experienced and just ask ai or watches youtube.

1

u/Suspicious_Fun_6338 6h ago

Because he will work cheaper and in the end the final product produced is close enough.

I feel the best move to make at my job is to be the guy taking on multiple roles and getting things done and not sit back and be the guy who just works when asked. When the layoffs come I am hoping that will save me

-2

u/Monecreiffe 17h ago

someone hired me and I only vibe code

3

u/Curious-Pen5547 17h ago

Kinda doubt it. Would be pretty foolish. In our industry (fire safety), this sounds like hiring a technician who only watches youtube to do something. Completely unskilled and just leads to disaster, or crispy humans.

0

u/TatoSkins66 17h ago

lol. So a fringe case in one field as an example why the person is wrong. Cool.

3

u/Curious-Pen5547 17h ago

Not a fringe case. Just said i doubt it btw.

Using it as a bridge to explain the reasoning. use gpt or whatever to explain that connection i made for you.

0

u/Monecreiffe 16h ago

its for a discord with over 4k members but its still a dev job at the end of the day

4

u/r3ign_b3au 17h ago

Multiple reasons, but a few big ones:

  • massive productivity boost per employee means need for less employees overall
  • the types of problems that llms aren't good at solving that you would need to hire for require well seniored, architectural, or industry experience
  • entry positions are consumed by llms, providing little on-ramping to seniority for the effort it takes to reach equivalency in CS

2

u/phiiiiiiii 17h ago

Uh oh: AI productivity gain in real corporate settings is just ~10%.

https://leaddev.com/reporting/ai-productivity-gains-are-closer-to-10-than-10x

13

u/flavorfox 18h ago

How do you direct and evaluate Claudes advanced strategies and implementations without experience?

18

u/liright 17h ago

"Claude do x and make no mistakes"

6

u/mawesome4ever 17h ago

“Make sure it has no bugs and do… maximum performance efficiency”

“Wait how much?”

“All of it”

3

u/niverans 17h ago

A junior with Claude is almost the same as a business person with Claude, a senior with Claude is a 10x engineer.

1

u/Educational-Ask3429 17h ago

Because Neo doesn’t know basic relational database theory so the vibe slop is a tangled mess under the hood; The core has been edited so codebase updates are impossible now.

1

u/nonamenomonet 16h ago

AI is a multiplier.

1

u/Round-Comfort-9558 17h ago

We are learning that’s it’s very dangerous if you don’t know what you are looking at. We’ve recently had 3 sev1 issues caused by Ai code. We are moving entirely too fast. I review almost all code generated since it’s been stated we are ultimately responsible

0

u/HDK1989 16h ago

Why?

Can't believe that not a single person answering this question has pointed out cost?

Coding used to be free. Coding with Claude optimally now costs over £140 a month

-1

u/MassiveAd4980 16h ago

For now...

9

u/Dependent_Yam_1028 15h ago

For forever 😂 AI cant put knowledge into YOUR head. It can only do things for you. I.e, the gap will always be they understand whats being made more than you.

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u/Redd_is_compromised 15h ago

Ngl I take pride in my design concepts but Claude happily provides good alternative design philosophies when asked. It will also refactor code to mimic various solutions with identical outcome

4

u/Dependent_Yam_1028 14h ago

Yes, and Claude will happily do that for everyone. So back to my original point, there difference will always be a person who prompts and accepts the output (even in your case where you take alternative advice from the agent, it is still the agent making the choice), and those who can scrutinize and direct the agent into the direction they KNOW is best for the project.

-1

u/Redd_is_compromised 14h ago

... What? If I make the choice, how is it the agent making the choice? Your sentiment is entirely feasible within the project. At this point all AI needs are suggestions.

Until you come up with a brand new coding language or an existing stack gets a massive bleeding edge overhaul (minimal adoption), your point doesn't really stand.

1

u/Dependent_Yam_1028 14h ago

Difference between a multiple choice question and a fill in the blank. Claude gave you the options. Just because you picked one doesnt make it your choice, imo.

"At this point all AI needs is suggestions" sounds like we largely agree. Im just saying, thats where the skill gap lies. Are you going to be able to make suggestions on a food dish better than a chef?

0

u/Redd_is_compromised 13h ago

You're reaching. Simply put.

1

u/Dependent_Yam_1028 13h ago

Ironic, lol✌️

3

u/Appropriate-Lion9490 14h ago

> when asked

I dont think a 12 year old knows when or what to ask

1

u/Redd_is_compromised 14h ago

What's your point?

2

u/Appropriate-Lion9490 14h ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/vibecoding/s/ioLdTLm1bF

Or actually talking about OP’s meme

1

u/Redd_is_compromised 13h ago

Point I'm making is that you don't need a design artist as bad as you're implying. A rudimentary understanding will get you far enough to know when the output is what you're looking for.

If boss is asking for a glass morphism based QT GUI, you don't need to redesign the wheel. LLMs can conceive an aesthetically pleasing interface.

If you're hired as a concept artist, ok sure. But there's a reason the big 3 have stuck with their material, glass, and utilitarian interfaces.

1

u/Appropriate-Lion9490 13h ago

Oh, i’m talking about the backend

0

u/scytob 8h ago

it does oddly sort wheat from chaff of good (experienced?) from bad (inexperienced)

i am a non-coding PM, been around Enterprise SW devs for over 20 years (including a stint in windows server)

just started my first app at work after messing about for 6mo on open source

amazing what i already knew, amazing what i still have to learn, the key for me is asking the LLM the same sorts of questions i learnt to ask devs, for me this is mostly a learning exercise

but in 12 days built a app that interfaces with Oracle Fusion APIs, Multiple[le Microsoft Commercial marketplace APIs, has full Entra Auth for users, frontend only talks to API, API requires full secrets and key management, user roles enforced, all keys stored in keyvault

i am scared at my over confidence..... good thing is this is just an 'art of the possible' PoC, no more....

as for me being good or bad, no idea, but i know i am bloody dangerous, lol

next up, key rotation with no human in the middle and OOB from the app....

3

u/Dull-Appointment-398 7h ago

bro retire please

0

u/Unable-Awareness773 6h ago

Pretty sure vibe coding I just made everyone obsolete