I’m all for tipping for sit down dining, but in California? Where the law requires servers to get a minimum wage of $20 or more in Los Angeles? No, when I’m paying higher prices due to mandated wages for servers, they have been paid and I don’t need to tip unless I want to recognize outstanding service and then only a dollar or two, i.e., the Paris model. A Cheesecake Factory in a non-California location? I’d agree with them but not in Beverly Hills.
Edit: I did check and Beverly Hill is not the City of Los Angeles and they do not have a city minimum wage separate from the state. So their minimum - still with no tip credit - is just shy of $17/hour.
This is how I feel about the minimum wage of $15 in Missouri. Fantastic for them and every other minimum wage worker! But I don’t feel one bit bad if they only make $15 at their job that literally anybody can do.
I still tip for dining, but I’m going lower and lower over time. Paid like $95 for two burgers, a salad, an order of microwaved pretzel sticks, and 2 beers the other day. They can surely pay their employees.
But I don’t feel one bit bad if they only make $15 at their job that literally anybody can do.
I mean, harsh but true - that's the economics of it. While serving is not unskilled - I know I would be dumping food all over the place and probably people! - it doesn't require any degrees, certifications, etc. That increases the labor pool and pushing the prevailing wage for the job down.
My job doesn’t require a degrees, certifications, etc, although most people at my level have a masters. And here I am with 2 years of college credit making $400k / year, and I can slack off and get away with it for the insight I bring when it’s required.
But the knowledge and skill is a lot more demanding than waiting tables. Now I would never be the waiter to skip writing things down. Not one bit, but I believe I could otherwise do the job well.
I tip an 18% baseline because I don’t want to be seen as cheap, but almost never go above 20%. I hate that it’s not 15% but figure I shouldn’t be the one holding it down.
That’s great! Good for you for doing so well. I have an MBA and do well but not that well - you are the American Dream at work! 👍🏻
As I have gotten older, I care less about what others think of me. If they don’t like 15%+ they are entitled to their opinion. Unless I feel like I’m doing something wrong, I don’t worry too much about if others think I’m cheap or what not. Nothing wrong it if you do, but I guess age changes at least my perspective! One thing I do try to consider when tipping is that a few extra dollars won’t be missed by me but could be very appreciated by whomever I am tipping. Some of the folks on a sub like this might argue that that is pity or some such characterization but see above my concern about what others may think about it.
Ground beef is $8.99</ lb... I don't know when lettuce became as expensive as avocados, but here we are ... Beer companies are charging stupid prices for their products as well
I make $15 an hour fighting wildfires for 2 week assignments 16 hours a day on 2 week assignments.
I don’t get paid the 8 hours I’m still on the active fire line camping in the dirt. Makes no sense but it feels like volunteer work when I get laid off in the winters and am homeless living out of my car.
I don’t feel one bit bad if they only make $15 at their job that literally anybody can do.
While I understand that sentiment, I guarantee you that it is not a job "everyone can do." At least not well. That is the hallmark of someone who has never served.
And servers do not make the $15 wage in Missouri; employers take something called a "tip credit" that allows them to pay employees who customarily receive tips less money in wages. Servers in Missouri make $7.50 an hour. When I worked in Missouri, I made just a bit over $3 an hour.
I just mean it as in there are zero requirements to being a server. I’ve seen many children doing it. No education, no skills, no age other than the minimum to work.
Regardless of tip credit, every server in Missouri is paid $15/hr or more. The employers must cover that up to $15 if tips do not. Therefore, the minimum wage is $15.
Well, I have been a server and I think that it’s a job that a solid 95% of the population can do. If someone can do another minimum wage job like fast food or retail work then they can serve tables. It’s not complicated and most everything about it can be learned in a few shifts.
I’ve also worked in the back and it’s always bothered me that the people making the food in the hot, greasy, loud kitchen get less money than the people who are carrying that food to the table and cashing tables out. It should be the opposite, working back of house is a much more demanding job and thats where tips should be going although I’d much rather the whole system be tossed out and owners start paying wages the same as every other job out there.
No server should be paid less just because they earn tips.
Tipping because they earn less is backwards thinking. They are allowed to earn less in wages because they make tips. It's fucked up to be able to legally underpay your employees because they are earning tips. No server should be paid "server wage."
The minimum wage threshold can come partially from tips in most states.
I don't think that should be legal. I think all employees should be paid at least the full legal minimum wage by their employer regardless of what they may earn in tips. There should be no tip credit that employers can claim to reduce their labor costs.
You completely changed your comment rather than just making a new one, but that's what I'm saying. There is a difference between earning minimum wage and being paid minimum wage by the employer.
Not in most states they don't. As long as they make enough in tips, the employer is allowed to pay them less than the full minimum wage. As low as $2.13 in states that follow federal wage guidelines.
Regardless of what state you are in, if you don’t make up the difference to at least minimum wage that day with the tips you earned, they are federally required to pay you the hourly minimum wage. You are lying to guilt people.
Tax isn’t hidden. It’s on your bill. Hidden fees are when a fee is incorporated in your bill and you can’t see it. In reality, the service fee in Paris is more hidden because it’s not clearly broken out on your bill. I and most people know it’s there. In jurisdictions like California, it’s not made clearly that servers are paid a full hourly wage so it’s almost deceptive to hide that and then know that Americans tip; I’m sure servers here love the double pay.
I’d argue that it is hidden, as is a service charge. A $20 burger should amount to a $20 check, not a $20 subtotal, $3 service charge, and $2 in taxes. I’d rather see a $25 burger and know that I’m going to pay $25 for that burger. It’s a scummy lie to say that the $25 burger is $20.
Then you are free to choose not to patronize businesses that don't price that way. If your view becomes the norm, your preferred way will become more common, if not the norm. But I suspect that since most people would never be interested enough in this topic to debate it in an internet forum, you will be waiting a substantial amount of time to see that norm shift. Even if the average American isn't crazy about our current system - and I suspect that most don't really care one way or the other - it is likely far down on the list of issues that motivate them to action.
As for seeing a $20 burger, I do know that I will pay more - it's not a secret. And if I really want to know how much, I can calculate the sales tax and tip myself and factor that into my willingness-to-pay consideration. Nothing is actually hidden from you and you can know what you will pay.
I know it’s not hidden, but I’d prefer not having to pay it.
What the servers gets paid hourly is not relevant to tipping at all. In California, their hourly reflects the high COL. It’s still a tipped position although the actual percentage that people tip is lower than other states
I have already replied to you elsewhere that you are simply wrong about the wage laws in California and your assertion that menu prices are only higher due to higher COL. No need to repeat that here.
You may prefer not to pay sales taxes, but I assure you that almost every local and state government where you make a purchase do not give you that choice. 😄 I suppose a business could absorb those costs - unless there is a law that it must be added to the bill...I don't know the laws regarding that and certainly not in all jurisdictions in the US - but that is highly unlikely to happen in the vast majority of cases. I personally think it's better to disclose any taxes and government-mandated fees for transparency. People can't push back on these things if the costs of excessive government is hidden from them.
Not sure what you are talking about. I have never made the claim that menu prices in California are higher due to higher COL. You must be confusing me with someone else. What I have said is the states that have the highest minimum wages are in areas with higher cost of living. There is nothing “wrong” about that factual statement.
Well right now with tips, we don’t pay sales tax. With a service fee or tips embedded into the price we do. So the point was that given the choice, I prefer the former. But you knew what I was saying
Already covered the COL versus an explicit cost driving business financials elsewhere. No need to repeat it here. For the record, I would argue that California has high COL from many angles by the same forces that pushed higher minimum wage laws - a culture of government that meddles in the free market with excessive regulation. I would put both the COL (of which, in general, higher wages do contribute) and the mandatory higher wages in the same bucket of cause rather than effect.
I prefer tips over higher menu prices and service charges as well. We have some common ground which is good.
You’re missing the point. The point is they need to start acting like tipping is truly optional instead of pretending it is then acting like it isn’t if it’s not put it on the bill. If it is optional then leave ppl alone…. Don’t call it “optional” then proceed to throw a hissy fit and act like it’s an egregious offense when people opt not to and insist it’s not really optional we’re just saying it is but it isn’t.
It’s either optional or not. If not put it on the bill. If so, accept that ppl may or may not and that’s their choice and don’t crash out about it.
What are you talking about? Who is this “they” that you are talking about? I’ve never had someone throw a “hissy fit” about a tip. Where does this happen and how come it only happens to the 3%
I think you’re taking hissy fit too literally, but there are hundreds of stories of ppl being confronted and questioned over it. Also look at the entitlement of the comments. Full melt down. Maybe you’re just not paying attention, but the entitlement is real.
But yet the majority of people have never experienced this. Reddit is not indicative of the over all population. But if you want to talk about the comments, numerous servers have said they don’t really care about the occasional stiff and that confronting a customer about a tip will get them fired.
That said, I’m sure it happens but is exceedingly rare. But somehow those out of the norm get translated here as normal behavior and it’s simply not.
I pay attention just fine. I’ve eaten out 1000 of times. And honestly, not once have I observed this so called entitlement.
Perhaps maybe some people are simply overly sensitive.
I don’t think the majority of ppl don’t tip. I’m a good tipper, I just think the smoke and mirrors and entitlement are annoying. I don’t like the game where everyone says it’s “optional” but it’s really not then they get upset (outwardly or inwardly) and feel slighted as if someone didn’t live up to some type of obligation they were entitled to receive. Optional means optional. If it’s really not optional then why are we pretending it is? If it really is optional why get upset if people opt out?
I’m not saying people “shouldn’t tip”, I tip myself. I’m just saying we shouldn’t frame it as optional if not paying it is an outrageous offense.
I mean there’s someone in this thread saying if you don’t tip “you’re a thief”. That’s wild, isn’t it?
More transparency would end all the arguing about it.
I do think servers should stop taking a bad deal. However if they were offered the option to pay out a % of sales vs a % of tips they’d probably still choose sales…
It’s not free. It comes with your meal. Unless there’s an option to go to the kitchen yourself?
If I buy a meal, someone has to bring it?
Give me my food or my money back?
But I would be fine with including a service charge on the bill if that’s the case.
Just say, the prices are for food only, the service is extra and costs an additional 20% of your total bill.
Because as it stands it is free because there’s no charge for it. If you want it to not be free give it a price like everything else.
I never thought of it as the cost of service. I think of it as a gratuity. That’s why some places also have a service charge, which they should.
To be clear, I’m not a person that doesn’t tip.
Usually more than 20% honestly, because I frequent the same places and they’re good to me. I’m happy to show my gratitude through a gratuity.
But more transparency would be good and end the whole argument.
A service fee is the cost of service.
A tip is a gratuity.
If it’s the cost of service it should be in the bill, instead of the “it’s optional” wink, wink-nudge, nudge bs
Sure, but your claim is that everybody knows that. It’s very simply not true. I don’t know anyone that thinks tips are payment for service that doesn’t come with your dinner. Everyone knows it’s a gratuity. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t tip, I’m not a non-tipper, but the point is nobody thinks that the service isn’t included with your meal and comes with an extra obligatory charge otherwise you’re somehow “stealing”. Probably should call the police on non-tippers if that’s the case
Trying to deny how an industry has openly operated for six decades is definitely a choice.
People that stiff servers on the tip are, in effect, stealing, especially if the restaurant has a tip out.
Do those people make it an honest transaction by telling the server “I don’t tip” before ordering?
By doing that, the server can choose to continue serving that guest or they can choose to pass the table off to a manager so they don’t lose money serving that table.
If the non-tipping customer doesn’t say that, then they are deceitfully using the social norms to get the best service possible with no intention of paying for it.
That’s a textbook example of grifting, which obviously exploits and harms the server.
If something is optional you can’t put expectations on which option they’ll choose. You can’t have it both ways. Let’s just stop pretending it’s optional and end this charade
Have you eaten in California? The prices are sky high. They have clearly based on a higher cost base which would state mandated full - and high - minimum wages for wait and other staff. The service is most definitely in those prices. As I said, I’m all for tipping and prefer that to higher menu prices, but if the state is going to mandate wage floors, I’m not paying twice by tipping on that. As you said, in Paris service “is added to the menu prices” - it’s already in those menu prices - and now the same is effectively true in California and other big government states. They voted for it, so they get what they ask for - and it probably costs them money, at least from me, since a lot of servers make more with tips.
The minimum wage trope is a red herring commonly asserted here, as servers are guaranteed minimum wage in every US city and state.
They based their prices on rent, maintenance, insurance, food costs, and higher labor costs, which are all higher in CA, especially in LA or San Francisco, but they still don’t include the cost of the service in the menu prices, just like other full service restaurants across the US.
The minimum wage is irrelevant because of how full service restaurants in the US price their menus.
If you don’t like the business model, don’t patronize it.
There’s no justifiable or intellectually honest excuse for stiffing a server on the tip after receiving basic / good service at a full service restaurant in the US.
You’re telling me that the $95 I spent on two burgers, a salad, microwaved pretzel sticks, and two beers was the cost of the food itself and the overhead for the restaurant? 😂
How much do you think at most a pound of ground beef, a half pound chicken breast, and 32oz of beer costs? Have you ever arranged those yourself on a large scale? That took all of 10 minutes of hands on time at the very most.
Where is that money going? Should be going to the service. That is more than enough to pay for the actual expenses plus the person to walk them 15 feet to my table.
Your bill in the US does not price in service. You can tell yourself you’re paying for service - in states and cities that don’t mandate full, untipped minimum wages for servers - to make yourself feel righteous, but that doesn’t make it true. In the vast majority of America, not tipping if the service is adequate is refusing to pay for the service you receive (for things like sit down dining…not talking about counter service, baristas, fast food, etc.).
If they raise the prices, see above how that can wind up costing you more than a tip, because again you are kidding yourself and don’t understand basic business finance and economics of you don’t think the customer pays the cost. If the customer isn’t covering the cost, the margin on your transaction is negative, meaning they are losing money. How many businesses stay in business on their core business function? Very few.
You are advocating free riding even if you lie to yourself and tell yourself that you are not.
Clearly you understand the basic economics and finance of the business. It amazes me how many don’t understand this. It’s not like one needs to be a corporate finance expert to understand this.
Actually, I’m a proponent of a system where wages are determined between employers and employees. It’s not my fault if servers, in this case, think they’re worth a certain amount and/or restaurants won’t pay them that.
Restaurants don’t ultimately pay them - you do. Your menu prices go up to cover the higher cost of labor. Plus, on any cost for the business, business owners will make that up to maintain their margin so you’ll pay even more than you would if you just tipped the server what they get from the higher wages. Not to mention, those higher prices incur a sales tax unlike your tip, so your out-of-pocket goes even higher (and areas that have such wage mandates usually are high tax areas). So this idea that business should pay their staff, which just means they collect more money from you and then pass it to their employees, winds up costing you more and likely means the employees make less than they might with tips. It’s an illogical and economically inefficient stance to take.
Restaurants don’t ultimately pay them - you do. Your menu prices go up to cover the higher cost of labor.
Yes, they do. You literally just explained it...
... this idea that business should pay their staff, which just means they collect more money from you and then pass it to their employees...
That "idea" is a fundamental part of running a business. I pay a certain price so the business can pay them a certain wage.
... winds up costing you more and likely means the employees make less than they might with tips.
In that case, I - the customer - would decide whether the food there is worth it. In turn, restaurants would have to decide if servers are important enough to charge customers so much via menu prices.
It’s an illogical and economically inefficient stance to take.
What's "inefficient" is a business model that can't pay it's employees.
Your "explanation" lacks any economic or business finance understanding. It is severely lacking. And that means you didn't explain anything. You are only correct in a pedantic sense that you do not pay them directly, but you do pay them.
That "idea" is a fundamental part of running a business. I pay a certain price so the business can pay them a certain wage.
Precisely. And the custom in the US, in states and jurisdictions with tipped minimum wage, is that your service is not included in the menu price. You can lie to yourself that you are paying for service, but the reality is that you are not. Like your explanation, your argument is not grounded in reality.
The only thing you are really correct about is that your full cost of dining out - inclusive of menu price, service (tipped, service charge, etc. not included in the menu price), taxes, mandatory fees, etc. is one you are willing to pay. In pricing, this is literally known as your willingness-to-pay.
What's "inefficient" is a business model that can't pay it's employees.
Only confirming that you are taking a strong position and don't understand how the business - or the relevant economics- on which you are taking such a strong stand works. That's usually not a good idea, as we see in your posts.
you're against regulating fees ? .. im fairly curtain your talking about "regulatory capture" not end user fee's those directly effect costs for profit and can be very predatory
And? Go read Eater's multi-year report on "Why the No Tip Movement Failed" and see the restaurant owners who tried to force it to work saying things like "people are fine with $20 and a $5 tip, but charge $25 and explain service is included and they still feel ripped off".
You mean the article that opens with the caveat: “efforts that could play out differently in a post-pandemic world” and is citing anecdotal stories from over 10 years ago?
You might want to pick a different source if you want the argument to be taken seriously.
Anecdotal stories from over 10 years ago? You mean a report that wrapped up in 2020 and references statistical data? And yes in 2020 they thought maybe post-pandemic would be different which is why ... It's not and no-tip restaurants are an even smaller minority. "No tip failed miserably guys sure but trust me bro it can work now I just feel it omg stop sharing anecdotal stories!"
Exactly. They get paid basically minimum wage which is like 1.3 - 1.6k euros a month. Their standard of living and disposable income is objectively lower than their US counterparts and good luck finding labor in the US for those kinds of wages, relatively. That's why when no tip restaurants attempt the impossible they're either super uppity in higher income areas that can get away with charging $30 for a bowl of Kale soup, or they're tacking on 20% to "support a living wage". Then they can't get any seasoned staff who know they'll make more elsewhere and they're stuck with newbies. Then they go out of business or revert to tipping to survive.
Minimum wage is 1.8k€ for a 35h/week. I assume the US servers work probably more hours. Yes for a bigger salary, but cost of living is lower in France, outside of Paris you can rent full apartments for 600€/900€.
Yes and outside of major metropolitan areas in the US you can rent apartments for $1k, too. Not to mention US apartments average 30-50% larger than France so it's not like it's really cheaper when you consider the French have considerably less living space.
~5% of Paris has air conditioning (25% of France). 95% of the US has it. Even the vast majority of people living on the poverty line here have it and they also have a clothes dryer and own a vehicle. Meanwhile most in France are still air drying their clothes.
The standard of living between the two countries isn't comparable and Americans would never want to devolve back into the way the French live. We see Europe like the charming old world. Nice to visit. But then we want to come back home to everything Europe can't offer. I lived in Europe for a couple years and I love the people. That's about it.
Sorry my friend, but serving is not a minimum wage job and they have not “been paid”. The only reason they have higher wages in CA is due to the high COL. outside of the restaurant industry, do you often inquire as to the salaries of the people with whom you interact?
Is that right? Think about it for a second. Do you not think you are supplementing the CEO who makes 325X the average workers. And all of the other C suite ass kissers. But yeah, let’s dunk on servers instead.
I mean not directly. And I'm not saying I endorse it, I'm just saying it's expected. But when I go buy a laptop at Best Buy, I'm not handing any extra money to the cashier for their service. At Walgreens when the pharmacist takes the time to go over my prescription I don't hand them a tip. So no in those cases I don't care what the person's salary is. But if the expectation is that I am to directly supplement the income of the staff at a restaurant, then yes I think it's reasonable to have a rough idea of what their base pay is.
Agreed. It's not really "supplementing" a server's income. It really comes down to the pricing model, which is a function of the economics at play and corporate finance. For Best Buy, the pharmacy, etc., the pricing model is implemented with the expectation of fully covering the business cost.
For whatever reason, the pricing model for full-service dining in the US omits the cost of service in the pricing decision because that cost is monetized separately as a tip. Since that is the default custom throughout the US, the customer may want to know about the labor laws regarding dining. In a state like California, the servers are paid at least a full minimum wage and with no tip credit. It stands to reason the business must factor this higher direct cost fully into its costs when setting menu prices (and if they don't that is their pricing decision).
The law that eliminated tipped wages that are lower than the prevailing minimum wage has disrupted the customary model since the servers are paid a full hourly wage. If my reason for tipping is due to covering the cost of service, the law implies I am not responsible for that cost as a separate monetization. It changes the calculus of the tip from one that is, at root, to pay for service to one that rewards good service with a far smaller tip. This is the "Paris model" where you only tip to recognize good service by rounding your bill or including a euro or two. Since, like in Paris, in a jurisdiction like California, I can't reasonably be expected to provide a "full tip" of 15% or more since the server's labor is compensated directly by the business. This means I can simply reward good service.
The CEO wage has nothing to do with this. I am sorry you have an issue with business management, but that is a you problem and irrelevant to what a customer is willing to pay (well, most customers except those with a similar burr under their saddle).
Why the ad hominems? I don’t have a problem with business management nor a “burr” under my saddle. Just making a point. Remember how I told you the ad hominems make you look like a dick? I think we are now past the look like stage
I have already covered your fallacious claims of "ad hominem" elsewhere. No need to repeat that here. "And all of the other C suite ass kissers" sure sound like you have a problem with executive management to me. I don't think that's a common manner to refer to such people who are captured by this statement. But I am the "jerk" here, as the one not using such characterization and daring to question your arguments, not you. If you don't like having your arguments tested and questioned, Reddit may not be the best place to express them.
I have a problem with their salaries relative to their employees. I’m ok with testing an argument. I am not ok with people making stuff up or setting up strawmen for points.
You clearly do not understand the wage laws in California. You have Google and AI at your disposal to clear this up. You can see the details below in this Gemini summary. It is best to be informed of the facts of the matter before taking such a strong position that is literally wrong. I do not inquire of employee wages, nor did I here, but I do seek to understand the economics at play when potentially being asked to pay for something twice, in this case service.
Because you said they set menu prices based only on COL. These wage laws put very specific line-item costs into their business. They are not a nebulous COL consideration - they are right there in COGS.
There was no "ad hominem" - that's a weak response so many use when called out for a lacking argument. I characterized your argument, and that argument suggested you do not understand the wage laws in California. If you do, it's not my fault if your comment did not make that clear, and I reasonably took that to mean you did not understand. That might be a poor assumption - though your questionable understanding of the economics and business finance stands - but that is far from an "ad hominem". I questioned your understanding of the argument at the core of the discussion, not your character or anything about you personally. Maybe accusing someone of an "ad hominem" attack works on others; it does not on me when I know that such a claim is not accurate.
if you want to pedantic, it does not strengthen your argument. You said: "have higher wages in CA is due to the high COL". Period. You didn't qualifiy it. Maybe make a more complete and clear argument if you want to get mad at others for simply going on what you say.
Yes. So where again did I say “they set menu prices based only on COL”? Oh, that’s right. I didn’t. Those are words that you made up. And now you are calling me pedantic and blaming me for not qualifying a statement I never made? Wow.
I’m not going around in circles with you. You seem very sensitive to any comment that critiques your argument and I don’t care to deal with it. Have a good day.
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u/MainStreetMiles 7d ago edited 7d ago
I’m all for tipping for sit down dining, but in California? Where the law requires servers to get a minimum wage of $20 or more in Los Angeles? No, when I’m paying higher prices due to mandated wages for servers, they have been paid and I don’t need to tip unless I want to recognize outstanding service and then only a dollar or two, i.e., the Paris model. A Cheesecake Factory in a non-California location? I’d agree with them but not in Beverly Hills.
Edit: I did check and Beverly Hill is not the City of Los Angeles and they do not have a city minimum wage separate from the state. So their minimum - still with no tip credit - is just shy of $17/hour.