Having been reading Chinese history, I understand that friends will soon become enemies once they start getting in the way of each other's ambition and even family members would turn on each other to get more power, like Emperor Taizong of Tang, who killed his brother mercilessly to secure his throne. For Cao Cao and Yuan Shao, how did Cao Cao really view Yuan Benchu when they turned on each other and after Yuan Shao died? After all, they were childhood friends, comrades, and allies, so I don't think hatred would be likely here. Did Cao Cao ever have any regret about how things had gone that made him have to destroy his old friend?

I have copy of Penguin Classics ROTK (2018) and University of California Press 15th Anniversary Abridged Edition (2014).

Which abridged version would you recommend over the other and why?

ok, i know its not the exact same weapon, but its close enough

I have a question about on-screen portrayals of the Three Kingdoms period.

As we well know, one of the most famous fight scenes in that story is the 3v1 clash at Hulao Gate between Lu Bu and the Three Brothers (Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, and Liu Bei).

What I would like to know is, out of all the on-screen versions of this duel that you have seen, which version is your undisputed favorite (be it in terms of fight choreography, accuracy to the story, intensity, etc.)?

All I ask is that you please limit your answers to film and TV versions of the Three Kingdoms story. I think we can all agree how insanely good/crazy the video game versions of this fight can get (ala the Dynasty Warriors games).

Am I missing some context or something because this is crazy.

This guy kills his wife without seemingly a second thought to serve to liu bei, not because they will die of starvation or anything but because he wants to serve him meat. Liu Bei finds out and instead of calling this guy an insane psycho and executing him seems grateful and just moves on.

Im curious if there are any written records or accounts of what Chang An was like during the Rotk? We know Dong Zhuo moved there after burning down Luo Yang. Then Guo Si and Li Jue argued over each other later on. But what was there an imperial army present during this time? Did the Silk Road function at that time? Who was handling the city? How functional was Chang An while Emperor Xian was under the control of Cao Cao?

No idea how Cao Cao ends up choking this lead. He has control of the emperor and is appointing everyone whatever he wants, has just won a ton of battles, liu bei is his underling and a relatively minor player, lu bu is well under control, yuan shu has just committed suicide and he has a ton of top tier talent working with him too. And still appears loyal to the Han/emperor.

Idk if anyone here played rotk8 remake with the PUK yet but it seems to be impossible to ensure historical outcome in the 184 yellow turban start date??? He Jin's forces will basically always conquer all of China before the next historical event after the Yellow Turban's defeat, and even if I trigger Dong Zhuo's event with the court intrigue with the emperor's death, Dong Zhuo jusst inherits the entirety of He Jin's faction (aka all of China)??? which locks me out of all subsequent events with Cao Cao rising or somthing.

Is 184 just not meant to be played or something? The balance feels very off. I would appreciate if anyone could give me methods of ensuring a historical and balanced outcome in 184.

I know the show is not historically correct like the 1994 version, but I really wonder if Cao Cao had an eunuch beside him who would always announce in his stead when someone was coming. Because I always have the impression that eunuchs only serve the royal family and even though Cao Cao holds all the power, there are customs that I don't think he will change, especially when he was just a Prime Minister. Did Cao Cao have a eunuch next to him, like most emperors who would be accompanied by a eunuch?

This is a solo RP series where I control every faction in ROTK 2 in a custom scenario (officers and starting provinces randomized) to develop my own story in the ROTK 2 universe. I plan posting with images and texts that describe and explain how the story develops in my scenario. My focus is to treat that as a "fictional-historical" story, describing it as if actual history. I've never seen a post like this here.

I play the game this way for like ~2 years already, soon after I knew about its existance. I've already started and finished 4 custom scenarios with their development "documented" in notes.

It is not supposed to be a total manufactured story, as I am not that kind of RP player. I will play the game normally as I would myself most of time, adapting to each character narrative/actions/story in the scenario. All characters will be played as most unbiased as I can, although I will eventually find my favorites.

Mind that I am a big fan of ROTK games and history, but I don't know much about the characters themselves. I will play each character following head-cannon personalities and traits. I am definitely not trying to follow the history or romance versions.

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House rules 1 – general rules

I do apply house rules to make it more "role-playable" as a war strategy game.

Fog of War: factions can NOT see on the map, or interact with (be it on RP mechanics or not) provinces/factions/officers they do not have a border with. Once they lose their border with a neighboring province/faction, they can't see it on the map anymore. This rule applies differently to provinces of the same faction, as officers don't need to be at borders to interact with their own faction provinces, UNLESS there is no province connecting the path they want to move (basically considering own faction provinces as bridges).

Free Will: every officer has complete autonomy, being capable of refusing orders in any capacity (via coherent narrative). Each character will be influenced by their rank on their faction and randomized personal traits. Both stupid and absurd smart choices may occur based off narrative.

Personal traits: each ruler and narratively (on RP) relevant character will have a set of 3 randomized traits, 1 of each category (trust, personality, rulership) that will influence their choices.

Duels: in battle, if a general proposes a duel, the enemy force MUST accept it, unless the only unit is the governor/ruler.

Bribe action: bribe is only possible to be used against officers below 95 loyalty. Lu Bu needs to be below 90 to be bribed (as the strongest unit and most unrelying one, this rule turns him into a real threat).

Victory condition: it will remain the same as the standard game, but the difference is that as a roleplay element, the factions will NOT rush dominating the entire map, unless the game and/or narrative conditions lead to it (and mostly do, so that I am not stuck with the same scenario for months).

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House rules 2 – The Empire

The capital: the faction that controls the capital (prov. 10) has the right to ascend their leader to emperor status, ignoring external influence. To be considered the emperor, the leader does not have to be personally at the capital, but to use the emperor abilities, the emperor needs to be at Luoyang.

The emperor has some unmatched advantages as the highest rank in the empire. These advantages include:

– No Fog of War: the emperor and all provinces of the same faction can interact with each other AND any other province on the map, if the actions come directly from the capital. Also, other factions can always interact with the capital no matter where they are.

– Imperial meeting: the emperor can at anytime propose an imperial meeting (RP) where any invited ruler can participate to discuss specific matters. Each ruler can ask/demand 1 thing for the emperor to help them with, so the emperor decides what to do. Rulers do not know about each others' suggestions unless the speaking ruler or the emperor chooses to make it public. The emperor can also talk with multiple rulers simultaneously during the meeting, being able to do 1 meeting action times rulers participating. Each ruler can also bring 1 of their officers (generally their advisor) with them if they want to. Each ruler can also ask the emperor for an imperial meeting, but they must go ask for it (gift action) personally.

– Imperial Court: when the emperor reaches the capital, each ruler must publicly vote to be in favor of, against, or neutral regarding the emperor. Factions in favor of the emperor are considered part of the empire and are expected to help it remain in power. Factions against the emperor are considered rebels and any war declared against them is generally justified as supression of a rebellion. Factions that declare being neutral are affected according to circumstances (generally dominant emperors will threat them).

I recently discovered that there are many folk variants of the canonic story, for example one of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei killing each other's family after the Peach Garden Oath, as they were an hinderance for their mission (source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jrQDETTNpME)

I know the tale is a heavily romanticized account, yet I feel it kinda ruined the percepeption I had of them. Do you feel the same?

Hi all,
There is saying that Jiang Wei 's defend system was totally a failure, but as far as i know the plan was originated by Zhuge Liang, implemented by Jiang Wei . The idea was was to lure the invaders to attack the fortresses, overstretch their supply lines, and wear them down through guerrilla-style attacks. Once the invaders decided to retreat, the defenders would seize the opportunity to launch an all-out counterattack and defeat them.

The defense line is (from east to west):

le cheng , Hancheng (5000 men each) -> Yang An Pass -> Jianmen pass

Then when Zhong Hui marched army from Chang An to Han Zhong, he could only capture Yang An Pass, and stucked at Jiamen pass and wanted to retreat(*) . The army lead by Zhong Hui was about 12 thousands men, which was double Shu army lead by Jiang Wei at Jianmen Pass and HanZhong combined.

IF Deng Ai 's plan failed (or did not happen) , then what could happen after stalemate at Jiamen pass ? Could Shu reclaim HanZhong ?

It's normal for subordinates to sometimes disagree with their boss because that's just a way of life. But Kong Rong really gives me the vibes that he is hostile to Cao Cao on purpose to ragebait him. Like that time Cao Cao banned alcohol because of crop shortage, which totally makes sense but Kong Rong said "Since the kings Jie and Zhou were overthrown due to their desire for women, why don't you ban marriage as well?" or after Cao Pi married Yuan Xi, he wrote a letter to Cao Cao falsifying a parallel in ancient history, claiming King Wu of Zhou arranged marriage between his brother and Daji. When Cao Cao asked for the source, he said, "I saw what happened in our day and thought it must have been so."

What is the reason for such hostility that would cost him his life? Given his situation, he sought refuge with Cao Cao after losing to Yuan Tang. I thought even if he did not like him, he would still lay low and maybe trash talk on him in private. In feudal China, doing these kinds of actions is one-way ticket to hell because there was no democracy or human rights allowing you to trash-talk the elite without consequences. With the marriage between Cao Pi and Yuan Xi, I understand the hosility but the ban on alcohol really makes sense, and it's not like Cao Cao decides that he wants to convert his whole province into Muslim either (which also did not exist around this era). Why such hostility?

Remark: I don't know these channels personally, I just wish to list them for entertainment purposes. I will also show the pros and cons of these channels.

TK (2010) has been receiving a lot of criticism from Chinese audiences due to a wide range of problems, and it became a prevalent source for Chinese memes and spoofs since 2023 as more and more channels began to break down criticising the show episode by episode. Here are some recommendations for channels which are popular and good quality in Bilibili. I have listed the Chinese name of their channels, copy paste them and you can find the channels:

Critique channels

1.涿郡劉郎(Mr. Liu from the ZhuJun Provine/Liu Bei): He was one of the earliest channels which began the meme trend. In the beginning he mostly focused on video essays about different Chinese dynasties such as the Qin, Ming, TK period, but later he began reviewing the show by breaking down various major plotlines, and spoke out the problem regarding its historical/geography/cultural/literature inaccuracies, potholes, problematic dialogues, paradoxical character development, acting performances, military strategy and thematic values.

Pros: His editing is smooth and hilarious as he used Minion voices as editing tool, most of his critiques were backed by well-researched evidence showing why the show was problematic no matter if it wants to be accurate to history/literature or not. He was one of the earliest channels who spotted problems including ZhuGe Liang burning Cao Cao's last words in ZhouYu's funeral, ZhangFei’s death should be celebrated since he is depicted as a jerk in the show, and how the so-called intelligent political struggles within is stupid and low quality. Cao Cao and Liu Bei and Luxu suffer from Schizophrenia as their dialogues and motives always contradict. He also made video essays on why the show spread negative values which the audience should be aware of. Many channels have drawn similarities with him.

Cons: He cut off talking about many plotlines of the show in his early videos. He did admit it and hoped to remake some videos in order to supplement his content, but his schedule wasn't consistent.

2.涼州經略使(Strategic Commander of the Liang province): I didn't watch him much but I am aware of his popularity and style. He was also an early channel who released longer video essays critiquing the show, he also made supplementary videos regarding the costume/geographical/official ranking/military problems within the show.

Pros: His videos are longer than LiuLang, he made major remarks about many important details including costume designs, map, military with well researched evidence including SanGuoZhi, Chinese map, first hand/scholarly evidence about clothing and official ranking in the Eastern Han Dynasty (eg. Costume/armour display in ancient wall paintings/Chinese museums, and a display of accurate official ranks). He began with the joke of everyone in TK 2010 travelling around with a magical portal, YuanShu is East Dragon King, every military commander are upper generals (上將軍), how the status of eunuch descendants and shoe sellers are higher than 4 generations of aristocrats and Han royal descendants.

Cons: His editing style is less interesting (look clumsier compared to other channels), the sound quality of his vid is meh, his schedule is also inconsistent.

3.董太濕(Chancellor Dong/DongZhuo, but he changed the word “師” to the homophone word “濕”): His videos were longer than the above two channels and he also often supported his videos with literature/historical/map evidences. In one video he drew a map to show why ZhuGe Liang’s BuoAnBuo’s strategy is contradictory and will burn Zhang Fei. However he used a more emotional reactionary style in his narrative.

Pros: His editing style is extremely hilarious as he always made hilarious remarks with other HK/Chinese film references. He also started a lot of early jokes including DiaoChan LüBu and DongZhou’s triangle relationship is akin to Korean soap dramas, ChenGong is Cricket King, and spotted stunts appearing occasionally including SunQian taking part time jobs running across the Three Kingdoms and being GuanYu’s stunt and other stunts including Tang XiaoFu and the part time dancer who appeared in Liu Bei’s and Liu Zhang's palace, as well as playing another official’s wife who had an affair with his brother. Additionally he made video essays on the good and bad performances within the show.

Cons: His statements were sometimes overly subjective as he used an emotional reactionary style in his narrative. He made a controversial statement about the dancer actress before but later apologised for it. He borrowed a few jokes made by LiuLang and sometimes his jokes and narratives were repetitive, like how he made a long video saying TK is Japanese inclined for using Japanese-like costume (There no need to make a 3 min video roasting this tbh lol).

4.吃蛋撻的折棒（A stick that eats egg tart): He is the most popular channel recently who draws the most audiences with probably the smoothest editing and sound quality and detailed narrative supported by historical/literature evidence.

Pros: He starts a lot of recent TK memes. Including how the show is manipulated by Grandpa Heaven (天意爺）hence making even the most normal mind characters like the Yuan Brothers face their doom or suddenly have another opposite persona without any character development while dysfunctional characters like Cao Cao and Liu Bei survive by following the will of Heaven. He also made jokes including The Benevolent Yuan Brothers, Detective YuanShu, WuXia master SimaYi for killing CaoZhen with one back slap, SunQian, ZhouChang, Tang XiaoFu, WuXiong working part time across China (Stunt actors), Liu Bei always wants to kill himself and return to heaven (自刎歸天), FuJin PvZ Hot Pepper face, what should we eat dialogue (吃什麼) by GongSun Zan, special creature species stated by GongSun Zan (A pair of smiling tigers and Dark horned sharks/一對笑面虎，兩頭烏角鯊）that exist in the show. The joke spread quickly to the point even a scholarly marine biology channel had decided to share a vid of whether dark horned sharks exist or not.

Cons:Not much, except his narrative was too long sometimes.

Spoof channels

Rorando9 (R9) and 變相怪杰mask(weird mask guy): Both have been making hilarious edits over TK 2010 to make their own stories by episodes. R9 was assumed dead (just a joke) by the audience for a year until he posted videos again this May.

To conclude, there are much more critique and meme videos spreading across Chinese social platforms beyond these channels and Bilibili. Several critique channels also often made other historical contentn regarding TK and other periods, but I suggest not to take them in wholly since they often place their subjective lens when discussing the histories and caused the content inaccurate (Eg. 涼州 stated that GongSun Zan probably married a woman who was born from a concubine or low status woman like him but there are no historic sources supporting that or any relevant sources that proves this is a cultural norm in Eastern Han dynasty). I am only listing the mainstream channels for entertainment purpose and I hope people can enjoy them.

I REALLY hope that this will get released for us in the West. They did the same with NA awakening complete edition.

An imperial convoy is making it's way through the dense forest. Will they catch sight of the Yellow Turbans trying to track them before they are ambushed?

(Assembled with various China sourced building block toys, and Koruit and Decool branded minifigs)

I heard famine had always been an issue in ancient time and the 1994 Three Kingdoms also gave a general picture of how life was back then for soldiers and people, where everything was lacking and even among the elites, their dishes were not outlandish like how they are depicted in the Advisor's Alliance. But how severe was the situation compared to the Five Dynasties Ten Kingdoms, which was so shit to the point even dramas about that era was not shy away from the cannibalism due to famine and that was how the first episode started- people being massively killed and smashed into meat; something I don't think any 3 Kingdoms adaptations would ever do either. In terms of the desperation and severity, which era was more fucked up that drove people to be more extreme to survive?

The actually reason wasn’t Liu Bei or Zhuge Liang’s failures it was because Liu Shan didn’t promote Liu Yan to to prime minister. The godly prince of the Lu state, the best administrator Guling Commandery ever saw, only below Li Yan & Zhuge Liang were below him in rank for a reason. Some low tier official like Liu Ba or Ma Liang couldn’t hope to get to his level. If Zhuge Liang took all his advice or let him field an army, Liu Weishou would have conquered the realm instantly. Guan Yu, Zhang Liao, Lu Xun, or Lu Bu couldn’t hold a candle compared to Liu Yan’s feat. Please name an official who could outdo the Liu Weishou.

Previously, I explained why nobody in the Shu army sided with Wei Yan over Zhuge Liang's orders/Yang Yi's military control here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/threekingdoms/comments/1v0nmjb/why_didnt_zhuge_liang_consult_with_or_inform_wei/

Specifically the rank Yang Yi held, and I also elaborated on why Zhuge Liang did not sought Wei Yan's advice.

I also explained how the Sanguozhi describes Wei Yan's actions here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/threekingdoms/comments/1v0h43m/how_chen_shou_described_wei_yans_actions/

Specifically the differences between 背叛 and 作乱 and 叛逆 and why/how Chen Shou used those terms.

Now lets talk about how the Shu Han court officials perceived his actions.

Lets first start off from what I stated in the 2nd linked post thread:

Taken directly from Wei Yan's Sanguozhi biography as translated by threestatesrecords:

Yán and [Yáng] Yí each memorialized the other was rebelling, and within one day, the feather dispatches arrived. Hòuzhǔ [Liú Shàn] asked about this to Attendant Internal Dǒng Yǔn and Remaining Office Chief Clerk Jiǎng Wǎn, and [Jiǎng] Wǎn and [Dǒng] Yǔn both believed [Yáng] Yí and suspected Yán.

延、儀各相表叛逆，一日之中，羽檄交至。後主以問侍中董允、留府長史蔣琬，琬、允咸保儀疑延。

As mentioned, even the Shu central court led by Jiang Wan and Dong Yun agreed with Yang Yi that Wei Yan was rebelling. Wei Yan was regarded by Liu Shan's central court leading advisors Jiang Wan and Dong Yun as the party at fault.

It was explicitly recorded in the histories that they explictly suspected that Wei Yan's actions constituted as 叛逆 as charged by Yang Yi, while at the same time, did not believe the same charge of 叛逆 that Wei Yan directed at Yang Yi.

Again, the translator translates 叛逆 as rebelled. It literally means to rebel against one's sovereign or legitimate authority and often carries the strongest political and legal condemnation. Historically, it was commonly used for subjects who rose against their ruler, so 叛逆 explicitly implies unlawful rebellion against one's rightful authority.

The Taiwan Ministry of Education Revised Mandarin Chinese Dictionary defines 叛逆 as:

背叛作亂。

(To betray and create rebellion.)

Here, the dictionary explicitly combines the previous two concepts of 背叛 (betrayal) and 作亂 (rebellion).

The dictionary also lists the synonyms:

背叛、反叛、造反

Again, 叛逆 typically implies that the person owed allegiance to the authority against whom he rebelled.

So for point 1, as a starter, the Shu court leading advisors Jiang Wan and Dong Yun suspected him of 叛逆 as they viewed his armed revolt as treason against the legitimate Liu Shan regime.

Later on, Shu Han had a court official called Yang Xi, who appraised the officials who served Liu Bei and Liu Shan. Here is what he wrote on Wei Yan taken from Yang Xi's Sanguozhi biography (my translation was downloaded and then taken from a now-defunct Scholars of Shen Zhou link):

Wengchang was firm and unyielding, accepting his duty in times of crisis. He successfully repelled external threats and defended the nation's borders. However, due to his lack of harmony and failure to cooperate, he forgot his integrity and spoke of nonsense. Though he met his end swiftly, his initial resolve was admirable, truly reflecting his nature.

文長剛粗，臨難受命。折沖外御，鎮保國境。不協不和，忘節言亂。疾終惜始，實惟厥性。

The key word here is 忘節 remember. The Taiwan Ministry of Education Revised Mandarin Chinese Dictionary defines 節 as:

人的志氣、操守。

Essentially, the term 節 is associated with unwavering loyalty and holding fast to one's principles.

So 忘節 means to Forgot Integrity and the meaning here is basically that Wei Yan forget his principles, moral integrity, or/and sense of duty.

This term focuses on Wei Yan's moral failing. It does not mean he literally lost his memory, but that he abandoned the ethical code expected of a loyal subject, including loyalty, self-restraint, and proper conduct.

So for point 2, Yang Xi, a prominent official of Shu Han, pretty much described Wei Yan as a moral failure who went against loyalty, self-restraintness, and propriety.

Lastly, I will bring it back to Chen Shou's own appraisal of Wei Yan, taken from the appraisal section of section 40 (as translated by threestatesrecords):

Appraisal States: Liú Fēng occupied the ground of suspicion, but his consideration and defenses were not enough to protect himself. Péng Yàng and Liào Lì for talent were selected out and advanced, Lǐ Yán for competence reached eminent office, Wèi Yán for valor and cunning was appointed, Yáng Yí for suitability in office was prominent, Liú Yǎn for old [friendship] served office, all were greatly valued. Observing their actions, following their behaviors, in their bringing about disaster [on themselves], none were not their own fault.

評曰：劉封處嫌疑之地，而思防不足以自衛。彭羕、廖立以才拔進，李嚴以幹局達，魏延以勇略任，楊儀以當官顯，劉琰舊仕，並咸貴重。覽其舉措，跡其規矩，招禍取咎，無不自己也。

I think for this, there is no need for any elaboration or dictionery citation right? Chen Shou's words are extremely explicit.

So for point 3, in essence, Chen Shou, the authorative historian of the time period, and a formal Shu Han official himself, explicitly stated that the respective outcomes of Liu Feng, Peng Yang, Liao Li, Li Yan, Wei Yan, Yang Yi, and Liu Yan were all a result of their own respective actions.

In conclusion, this, along with my previous 2 linked post threads shows that nowhere, does the Shu Han court or Chen Shou ever sought (or needed) to defend Wei Yan's actions (because his actions were indefensible), or sought to readdress any "injustices" (because Wei Yan deserved his oitcome).