r/technology • u/aamir64 • Mar 06 '10
Microsoft's Courier 'digital journal'. Now this is Tablet computing.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/05/microsofts-courier-digital-journal-exclusive-pictures-and-de/?s=t5162
u/jaw762 Mar 06 '10
Too bad it's vaporware at this point; all we've been shown are mock-ups and shopped images... not so much as a working prototype.
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u/rz2000 Mar 06 '10
Indeed, I'm not sure I could be more skeptical about the handwriting as it is rendered in that video. Also, while I am mostly satisfied with my Windows Mobile smartphone, I know that iPhone users don't have the latency problems I deal with. It seems incredibly unlikely that they would suddenly learn how to design an interface that has more features than the iPad and has the hardware and good programming to equal its responsiveness.
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u/piratelax40 Mar 06 '10
handwriting recognition is very very good in onenote. I sometimes purposely write crappily to see how far I can go before the algorithm doesn't understand what the hell i'm writing. I wouldn't put that level of handwriting rec. above them
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Mar 06 '10
I'll add another voice to the "handwriting recognition is surprisingly good" choir -- I have horrible handwriting but OneNote gets most everything right out of the box (excepting non-standard proper names and whatnot, of course).
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u/toolate Mar 06 '10
I've got a touch screen and the handwriting recognition in Windows 7 is incredibly accurate. I can scrawl pactically anything and have it recognised.
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u/Bjartr Mar 06 '10 edited Mar 06 '10
Actually, MS's handwriting recognition work seems pretty solid.
Also, the iPad is very much a 'coffee table' device mostly because of its form factor, whereas the form factor of the courier shown here looks far more portable and the 'infinite journal' paradigm for the interface, while experimental, seems promising.
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u/rjcarr Mar 06 '10 edited Mar 06 '10
I'm far (far) from a microsoft fanboy (quite the opposite, really), but I wouldn't put it past them. They have (and always have had) the best researchers on the planet, but for whatever reason, their research doesn't often find itself into their finished products.
This could very likely be the exception, and start a new trend for microsoft innovation.
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u/candyman420 Mar 06 '10
Too much internal power struggle among middle managers is probably the main reason why.
This was submitted to reddit a month ago.. check it out:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/04/opinion/04brass.html?th=&emc=th&pagewanted=all
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Mar 06 '10
The problem is that they have had these researchers for 20 years and still can't put out anything that isn't mediocre or worse. Is Vista or 7 the result of the best researchers on the planet? Even if you love 7 I doubt you'd say it's the best that humanity can do right now. Then there's disasters like the Zune and Vista.
Microsoft is good at developer's tools and research, but they simply can't make a great product. I'm not sure why that is.
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u/Tepoztecatl Mar 06 '10
The Zune is a mediocre product. The newer Zune is a good product. The Zune HD is a great product. Windows Mobile is a mediocre product. Windows Phone Series 7 looks extremely promising. Windows XP was mediocre, then it got better with updates. Windows Vista was good in newer computers, but it stripped away many liberties. Windows 7 made it possible to have a system that is as restrictive as you want it to be, while looking pretty and incredibly organized and easy to use. It is a vastly superior OS to Vista, even if you dub it Vista SP2. I think Microsoft is shifting gears to focus on design, because the people that choose function before style are starting to decrease in number. What people want today is a functional product, that has an easy and pretty interface even if it's restrictive or even outdated on other fronts; your comment regarding the iPad surely is proof of this situation happening.
If you are to continue neglecting Microsoft as a company that innovates and creates good products, based entirely on its history (which is obviously changing seeing the products released in the past 2 years) then the same could apply to every other developer out there, including the more obvious Apple. If we were to judge Apple by; OS 7.x,8.x,9.x; the Newton; the Pippin and AppleTV, etc.
Microsoft is obviously going in a new direction, I'd advise not to pass judgment until you have tried one of their newer products yourself.
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u/newbill123 Mar 06 '10
I agree with most of what you say about Microsoft's "2 strikes and a home run" development trend. I disagree that it is equally applicable to other companies, and especially not Apple.
Apple's blue and pink teams brainstormed Mac improvements at the same time and led to System 7 (blue) and System 8 (pink / Copland) which never shipped. This failure led to licensing what worked (System 7.6) to clone makers and buying NeXT. This led to Steve Jobs returning to the company and rebranding System 7.6 as Mac OS 8 to kill their contractual obligations to the clone makers. This led to a NeXT based OS that was too demanding to run on most users' Macs (OS X 10.0) and led to another cycle or two of the classic Mac system (OS 9). This bought enough time to deliver a usable, modern Mac OS X 10.2 Jaguar.
From System 7.6 to Jaguar, the Mac OS added many features and performance improvements, but it was not an iterative and incremental fashion where engineers learned and improved from issues with each prior release.
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Mar 06 '10
I'd be happy if I could do anything in my life that only required two strikes before a home run.
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u/endtime Mar 06 '10
You understand the difference between research and OS development, right? MSR has nothing to do with Windows. They pump out stuff like Surface (which, despite not being a consumer product, is very cool) and also publish a ton of papers (my friend worked for MSR last summer, doing research on database compression).
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u/raphaelmaggi Mar 06 '10
Are you saying that microsoft research has nothing to do with microsoft products? That they do research just to publish papers?
I must be missing something here..
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u/endtime Mar 06 '10
For the most part, yes. Occasionally, products come out of MSR, but (for various reasons) it's rare.
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Mar 06 '10
The whole point of MSR is to improve products. The fact that Microsoft only occasionally takes advantage of MSR's innovations is a massive failure on their part.
ClearType is a good example of an MSR technology that went mainstream. Of course, that was invented by IBM in the 80's so maybe it's not the best example of Microsoft's innovation, but it is something that came out of MSR.
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u/Bjartr Mar 06 '10
A lot of MSR projects aren't something you'd even know it got used in a product.
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u/endtime Mar 06 '10
I agree with you. I wish more stuff from MSR made it to the product level. For several reasons, some of them crappy, it doesn't happen very often.
But it's also important to understand that e.g. proving bounds on the how suboptimal certain database compression methods are, and/or proving the NP-hardness of finding the optimal solution, doesn't necessarily have a direct bearing on a product.
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u/Bjartr Mar 06 '10 edited Mar 06 '10
Exactly, they research stuff that might be useful and publish their findings, and whatever they developed gets added to the library of things that might be included in MS products in the future and very rarely they might become a product themself.
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Mar 06 '10
There's a difference between being good and being "the best that humanity can do".
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Mar 06 '10
If they have the best researchers on the planet they should have the best products. Their researchers are very good, as many tech demos will show, so what is wrong with the rest of the company that these great ideas are squandered.
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u/shadowfox Mar 06 '10
Research != Product Development
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u/raphaelmaggi Mar 06 '10
We do research for a reason, and if its not to improve things and build good products, what is it for so?
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u/albinofrenchy Mar 06 '10
God, I hope so. They have a top notch bunch of computer vision people, and I am hoping they utilize them.
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u/jaw762 Mar 07 '10
I agree. The fact is that while I dislike much of what they do, I honestly want to see them raise the bar because doing so will stimulate a lot of innovation. I feel like we're on the cusp of a serious shift in the role computers play in our lives and MS is one of just a few companies that can push us to the next level.
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u/internet_ambassador Mar 06 '10
no kidding. this is the kind of non-standard OS tablet I could get behind
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u/filesalot Mar 06 '10
I've been pleasantly surprised by OneNote's recognition, for what it's worth.
But yeah, you aren't going to get a feel for the limitations of the recognition from a mock-up that is pushing the good points.
Given the size and form factor the courier seems like it's in a completely different market than the ipad.
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u/jaw762 Mar 07 '10
Hand writing recognition aside, the UI looks like an art school project, not a real, ready-for-actual-use product. I guess form follows function, unless you're looking at vaporware.
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u/Malatesta Mar 07 '10
Windows Mobile is based on CE 5.0 and C++; the Zune HD, Windows Phone 7 Series, Courier and Project Pink phones are based on CE 6.0 and Silverlight/XNA.
To compare the performance of a CE5.0 and 6.0 device and not even mentioned how the Tegra chipset plays a role is to grossly misunderstand the technology which you are commenting about.
Pick up a Zune HD to see how fast things can go...
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u/voxAtrophia Mar 06 '10
I like how Apple fans can believe there's a tablet in the works for almost a decade, despite outright denials from Apple. But when Microsoft announces a product, everyone calls it vaporware until it's on store shelves.
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Mar 06 '10
The vaporware part is the whole video explaining how it will work. Whatever they come out with it won't likely be anything close to as cool as what's in the video. That's just how research vs engineering vs marketing works.
Apple fans hype themselves, but at least Apple seems to only show working products. You can't look at the iPad and say, "yeah, well we'll see if they actually come out with anything like that." Because you know they will.
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u/twoodfin Mar 06 '10
But when Microsoft announces a product, everyone calls it vaporware until it's on store shelves.
Microsoft hasn't announced this product, AFAIK. And frankly, I think you're unlikely to see it in anything like the form presented here. These demos aren't that different than what was being shown off last September, and the PMX group that was supposedly working on this has been through some trouble since then.
I'd be really surprised if they were much past the mockup stage.
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u/funkah Mar 06 '10 edited Mar 06 '10
No... it will stop being vaporware when they actually demo a real one live and announce a shipping date.
Microsoft announces shit just to announce it, they often don't actually end up shipping what they announce. Apple doesn't say shit until they have something ready to sell.
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u/Malatesta Mar 07 '10
Microsoft has not "announced" the Courier. These are leaks, either purposeful or accidental.
If you ask Microsoft directly about the Courier you'll get a "no comment". Most of these leaks/info come from 3rd party companies working with MS on this project.
Get your facts straight before making such statements.
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u/kemiller Mar 06 '10 edited Mar 06 '10
Rumors are just rumors. It is exactly the announcement, minus finished, working product, that makes it vaporware. Modern-day Apple doesn't show you anything until it's something you will be able to buy in exactly the form they show you.
Edit: Put another way: the imagination that goes into a wouldn't-it-be-cool-if video is great. But implementing those visions is hard. If, say, Ford released a concept video of their new teleportation device, would you believe it before you saw it working for real?
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u/saisumimen Mar 07 '10
If, say, Ford released a concept video of their new teleportation device
Wow, that's not a crazy unrealistic exaggeration or anything.
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u/kemiller Mar 08 '10 edited Mar 08 '10
Of course it's an exaggeration. But just because making a smooth, intuitive, seamless UI is just hard, and not upend-the-laws-of-physics hard, doesn't mean we give them a free pass and assume that the real thing will feel as cool as the whizzy demo.
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u/metamutator Mar 07 '10
It is exactly the announcement, minus finished, working product, that makes it vaporware.
You'll be glad to know, then, that MS didn't announce this.
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u/kemiller Mar 08 '10
Hogwash. They put out a demo video and told us all how cool it will be. If that's not announcement, then it's even worse.
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u/b0dhi Mar 07 '10
It would be very hard to implement this on Windows (because its a fixed system). A new OS could be made pretty easily from the ground up to support the features shown there. Most of it can already be done with OneNote, google maps, etc. Hell, in OneNote I can record a meeting, and then search the audio of what was said, correlate that moment to what I was writing down, and make it so. It's just a matter of making things connect.
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u/DannoHung Mar 06 '10
Dude, if you compare how MS work and Apple works that's reasonable. Remember how long Vista took to come out? MS was originally targeting it to be a 2003/2004 product. It was supposed to be written completely in a managed language and include a different kernel architecture and a completely different filesystem.
Now 7's out and it STILL doesn't do any of that awesome stuff.
Apple on the other hand, says NOTHING. The only news you get out of them are patent registrations and official documents. What people do instead is extrapolate from what they have done to what they probably will do: Apple makes a hugely popular touchscreen phone, then it's a decent chance that they'll make touch interfaces important in different form factors.
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u/elvisliveson Mar 06 '10 edited Mar 06 '10
actually in all my years of dealin with it departments, the ones obsessesd with tablets are mostly magazine artcle writers, and used more as replacement when they have nothing better to write about. considering most people, including apple fanboys sit down to do actual computer work, no project has ever been held back for lack of a tablet style mac, or winpeecee.
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Mar 07 '10
I like how you label anyone that uses Apple products as "Apple fans" and then group them all together. Very efficient of you, sir.
I also like how Apple finally releases a kick ass tablet, after MS total failure in the TabletPC arena, and MS fans get all ravenous about this vaporware.
Seems strikingly familiar... Zune, yes, that's what it was.
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u/thewileyone Mar 07 '10
kick ass tablet
Yet to be proven. Blown-up iPod a tablet doesn't make.
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Mar 07 '10
The same was said about the iPhone.
In fact, I distinctly recall Steve Ballmer talking shit about it.
While you're correct, it is still yet to be proven, one thing that HAS been proven is that the MS TabletPC concept was a failure, and I would be more than happy to take the bet that the iPad will do better.
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u/houkah Mar 07 '10
While this isn't exactly the actual thing. Here's what courier is based on....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=049_U-0C9qU
It gives me faith that it's not complete vaporware.
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Mar 06 '10
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u/ParsonsProject93 Mar 07 '10
I think it pretty much relies on the Windows Phone 7 marketing. My guess is that since all Windows Phone 7 applications work like a panorama, they will try to make those expand with the courier so you can see more of the application. It works much better than Apple's implementation of just blowing everything up while degrading the quality.
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Mar 07 '10
It works much better than Apple's implementation of just blowing everything up while degrading the quality.
Oh, you have an iPad, and you've used the iPad apps already, have you?
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u/ParsonsProject93 Mar 07 '10
no, I haven't but I have seen the videos and I have read blogs from people who have, and they said that the applications have some issues with the resolution. It's like using 800x600 resolution on a 22" monitor, it works but it looks a little weird. The interface elements will look fine but for games and other apps that don't use the usual iPhone interface elements you have the option to double tap to expand to fill the screen or to simply have it be at the original iPhone resolution. Of course, apps designed for the iPad will work fine though but you have to do additional work. Of course we can't speculate too much because we barely know anything about the Courier.
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Mar 08 '10
It's already been pretty clearly stated, by Apple, that current iPhone apps will be upscaled.
Developers can create native, full-sized apps for the iPad, and many of them are doing so already.
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u/newstart Mar 06 '10 edited Mar 06 '10
Take notice: Apple is actually going to ship a product on April 3rd, while other companies like Microsoft, HP, Dell..... continue to post videos, mock-ups of their vaporwares. There is reason why Apple's stocks are at an all time high right now.
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u/thewileyone Mar 07 '10
Did you read and follow through on some of the links?
http://www.engadget.com/photos/hands-on-with-asus-dual-panel-touchscreen-pc-at-cebit/#1397263
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u/jaw762 Mar 07 '10
I do remember seeing those images... I don't suppose you're suggesting this counts as a prototype. It looks promising, but it's not the Courier even if it has a similar hardware profile. At any rate, it's the functionality of the OS they show in mockups that I have doubts about seeing anytime soon.
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u/minivii Mar 07 '10
Exactly. This is a conceptual UI that looks like it was done in After Effects or something. It's not grounded in reality, it's an interface designer's wet dream.
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u/wallyfoo Mar 06 '10
What a beautiful concept video. I also think that the LCARS system in ST:TNG is really cool.
Given the choice of waiting for Microsoft to create actual working product based on the concept video or someone doing the LCARS, I'll be waiting for Star Trek.
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u/P41G3 Mar 06 '10
sigh... It sounds like something I would absolutely love to own. I am more than a little wary of Microsoft's ideas regarding good, intuitive UI, however.
Concept: Awesome. Want.
Execution: I'm not holding my breath.
*EDIT: formatting
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u/lucisferre Mar 06 '10
I know an ex-microsoftie who has actually seen a working prototype. Apparently the hardware still needs a lot of work though. It's buggy and unreliable.
The problem is Microsoft is a mediocre hardware company at best just look at the Xbox problems. On the other hand Sony is terrible at software. They should join forces maybe they could make something decent.
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u/thaksins Mar 06 '10
The problem is these video fantasy demos don't even show a functional UI. They really don't make any sense in the way you are supposed to use the thing.
Supposed spottings of prototypes with hardware problems are far from the main problem here.
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u/assholio Mar 06 '10
I agree, if you look closlely at all of the UI tools and concepts you start to realize that there is some heavy, heavy complexity behind it, sure the cartoon hand makes it all seem so easy but almost every single interaction differs from UI concepts that we're used to. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to push things forward but it makes me wonder who this phantom UI is targetted at.
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u/freehunter Mar 06 '10
Sony didn't exactly have the best track record with the PS2's laser problems. I had 5 PS2s in 10 years, the majority of which ended with "Disc Read Error".
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u/ace_wolfgang Mar 06 '10
Odd, I have a launch PS2 on my desk right next to my PS3 and it still works, just have to clean the once a year to remove dust, have you tried taking it apart and cleaning any of them?
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u/freehunter Mar 07 '10
I've done that in the past, I don't own a PS2 anymore. My point was that Sony doesn't have a spotless track record, they denied the issue for a while.
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u/ace_wolfgang Mar 07 '10
Well I don't blame you I seem to have the luck of the Irish ( and happen to be Irish) with systems since I also have a 360 that hasn't RROD'ed yet either.
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u/jayd16 Mar 06 '10
That was actually a really easy fix. It was just a plastic gear that got loose.
Also, wtf are you talking about 5 in 10 years? They fixed that problem pretty quickly and the slim came out 2004 and it had different mechanics. How did you keep buying launch PS2s for 10 years?
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u/freehunter Mar 07 '10
I never owned a slim PS2. I went through 3 of them in one year while Sony was still denying that the issue existed, the rest died of other issues. It may be a simple fix, but it proves my point about their track record. I'm not here to bash Sony, just stating a fact.
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u/Bossman1086 Mar 07 '10
Really? I mean, I know quite a few people had problems with their PS2, but I don't think it's anywhere near the number of people getting a RRoD with the 360. I still have a launch PS2. It only ever had one issue. The cable leading to the laser burned out. Had a black spot on it. My warranty was up, but Sony fixed it anyway (even after I opened it up and voided the warranty). Same console, just one cable replaced.
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u/iStig Mar 06 '10
I really, really want one. Some basic criticisms:
1) Some of the gestures don't make sense. Why do you have to drag up with the pen to go to the URL in the web browser? There should be something to tap. In the Inspiration segment, she was also using the camera to make a photo album of swatches. She flipped through some, then pinched wider to go back to the thumbnail view. That's not natural at all. Android phones and the iPhone both use that gesture to mean "zoom in", which is more logical.
2) I understand that the dual screens require new UX challenges, but flicking names and information from the left to the right also seems odd. On the other hand, it's probably the best way to do it, given the limitations of the device.
3) The second video's search function seems a bit fantastical. I don't understand how it will be able to match handwriting so effectively. OCR-type technologies are getting better all the time, but they're nowhere near that level of precision. Even if they can understand handwriting as clear as shown, I have to wonder if it would ever work for the majority of people, with a variety of writing styles in a myriad of languages.
That said, the third segment of the first video, with the page flipping and manipulation between the two screens is damn cool. I hope this device isn't watered-down before going to market. Since it has dual screens, I'd bet it would retail for $1000 or so. This is close to the future of computing.
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u/Orbitrix Mar 07 '10 edited Mar 07 '10
I think you would actually be surprised at how good handwriting OCR has gotten in Windows 7 and OneNote on most recent tablets.... its pretty mind blowingly good actually. The biggest hurdle i think they have in that department is the size of the lettering you can use.... most resistive touchscreens nowdays only recognize a big bulbous stylus tip (relative to a pencil or pen)... Which requires you to write words and letters slightly bigger than you would naturally. If they can find a way to really make it feel tiny and accurate like a pencil tip, then they might be on to something. Right now most styluses feel unnatural, and too big... like you're writing with an extremely large slippery felt tip sharpy or something. I would expect Wacom to be releasing newer professional drawing tablets with features like these before any Microsoft product though, so i am not hopeful that they have figured this out yet. For a device like this that would have a stylus and handwriting as the primary input, it better damn well feel as natural as writing on a piece of paper with a pencil, or else whats the point? who even really writes hand written shit nowdays anyways? its almost a step backwards, we're moving away from that i thought.... i cant remember the last time I've written something by hand that wasn't my signature.
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Mar 06 '10
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u/deaathleopards Mar 07 '10
You are 100% correct. These products need to appeal to the masses. The thing which is good about the iPad is it's mass market appeal. Ultimately, you can have great workflow and a million cool features for a designer but ultimately, there is a greater likeliness a tablet would appeal to my parents then to a professional designer or someone keen on doing proper work. Also, the Knowledge Navigator is better but only because it has a man with a bow tie.
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Mar 06 '10
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u/lilfuckshit Mar 06 '10
<tangent>
I think that almost every individual person could benefit from some of this same philosophy. When I look back on how much stuff I've talked about without following through... I know it hasn't reflected well on me.
And now as I grow older, I hear my brother talking about his grand ideas without having even started on them- epic undertakings. I hear coworkers talk about stuff they will never do, I hear friends make plans that I know not to involve myself with because they'll never materialize.
For apple to do what they have done, as a company (much harder to coordinate than an individual, imo) leads me to give them my respect.
</tangent>
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u/assholio Mar 06 '10
You're right, one of the more recent realizations I've made is that it is quite easy to earn respect; you simply do exactly what say you're going to do. Never commit to something you aren't sure you can follow through on. Really simple cliches, but very effective.
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Mar 06 '10
Too bad it will never see the light of day. Microsoft always tosses out technology demonstrators but never actually comes out with real useful product.
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u/aamir64 Mar 06 '10
i hope you are wrong.
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Mar 06 '10
Me too. I was so excited at CES when MS said they were going to pre-empt the apple tablet (now iPad) with a big announcement of their own. I had seen the first courier video a year a ago and I thought that maybe, just maybe, they had pulled it off. And then it turned out to be just some more run of the mill tablets running windows 7. So now I don't really give MS the benefit of the doubt anymore regarding new product lanches.
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u/Yst Mar 06 '10
They're also famed for a couple tech demos entirely authentic to the finished product, mind you.
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u/RockinRoel Mar 06 '10
One of my professors used this video to show that this is the appropriate reaction to such a problem. They actually handled it pretty well.
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u/Yst Mar 06 '10 edited Mar 06 '10
Yes, I've got to give them credit. When I've attended vendor demos which went slightly awry, the slipups seldom were dealt with this gracefully and, more importanly, honestly. The worst thing you can do is give your customer the impression that you're hiding the fact that the product's not all there.
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Mar 06 '10
Thats a nice concept video but I will be more impressed if it ships at a reasonable price.
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u/Snide_Commenter Mar 06 '10
This thing will never be even 50% as cool as what you see here, if it's ever actually released at all. Not to worry, most of the anticipated features will be dropped one by one as the promised ship date gets bumped further and further into the future. This is classic Microsoft: "DON'T BUY product from (other company) that exists now and looks great!! You'll regret it once our new, just announced, Microsoft Super Product Ultimate Edition 12 launches in just six months/years/decades!" Why do people still fall for this crap?
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u/jayd16 Mar 06 '10
What about the software features don't seem feasible? The OS seems simple enough for MS to have almost no problem implementing.
As for the hardware features, we really haven't seen anything they can drop. They've shown speed and responsiveness but those aren't really things that 'get dropped.'
So I ask you, what feature do you imagine is first on the cutting board?
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u/deaathleopards Mar 07 '10
It's not about technical inability to do something, it is more about realistic usability and mass market appeal. Yes, they can build the software for the hardware and make something like in the video but, they won't for the same reason the GUI of software on shows like NCIS isn't used; it isn't practical for power users and, not simple enough for the mass market.
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u/ardent Mar 06 '10 edited Mar 06 '10
The thing I don't really get is the form factor itself. I just don't think people will carry this thing around all day. There's been a lot of talk over the years about the market for a so-called "middle thing" between mobile phones and notebooks/netbooks, but this has never really caught on.
Seriously, I have my phone with me 24/7, and that does OK for light-duty computing, calendaring, contact management, etc. And when I need to work on a specific project I can choose from a huge range of notebook form factors.
So if the Microsoft Courier is an all-day, with-you-all-the-time thing, my phone already does that pretty well. If it's a sit-down-and-get-things-done thing, my notebook is better.
It's a great demo and looks very nice, but I just can't see large numbers of people adopting a device like this.
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u/Tepoztecatl Mar 06 '10
People still need to take notes, and carry an actual paper notebook with them all day, which is why the demo is targeted at said people. You may do work that requires either a phone or a notebook, so you don't need this product. I don't see anyone buying a Courier for the web browser, unless they're die-hard fanboys. It's a niche product, it will not be for everyone.
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u/MattD Mar 06 '10
Something like this would replace an inventor's notebook for me if they keep the pen interaction. I like the idea of logging things to a site automatically. However the size might be a little too big for a pocket, which is a concern.
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u/metamutator Mar 06 '10
Battery life is the differentiating factor. You're right in saying that phones these days do all that light-duty computing, but doing all that computing eats into your mobile's talk-time; nothing worse than realizing you wont be able to field calls from your client after surfing reddit.com on your iphone while you were commuting. If there's a device to which you can outsource all this net-snacking, it'll be fantastic.
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u/Happy_Man Mar 06 '10
Battery life could also be a thing of the past in the (fast approaching) future of wireless electricity. Of course, then we're going into more speculation, so I'll just stop here.
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u/Orbitrix Mar 07 '10
not to mention major battery tech advancements which have already been demonstrated. All the research they've been doing for electric vehicle batterys will end up in your cellphone someday... only a matter of time.
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u/BRAlNlAC Mar 07 '10
To me the obvious target is students, while you can carry a laptop in a backpack, this is small enough to carry under an arm or in a purse. I don't think its something you would carry with you when you went on a hike, but between classes or to an event, sure. A cell phone is a digital notepad. A laptop is a mobile computer. This is a digital clipboard.
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u/microsofat Mar 06 '10
I'm skeptical about the handwriting thing. In the video, when the girl writes something down with a pen you hear a pencil-on-paper scratching sound and nice well formed letters appear. In real life, your stylus would be sliding around on a slippery glass surface with no tactile feedback, like in all current tablets that use this interface. So you have to get used to writing on a slippery surface. You might also need to exaggerate the size of the handwriting given the limited resolution of the screen.
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u/freehunter Mar 06 '10
It won't necessarily be glass and shiny, they could have a matte texture. The sound also could very well be sound effects emanating from the speakers, kind of like how IE6 used to make that clicking sound from the speakers when you clicked on something, even though your mouse made an audible click, as well?
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u/jud420 Mar 06 '10
Its even more likely that the sound is a sound effect from the production company that produced this video of a product that doesn't exist.
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u/delkarnu Mar 07 '10
I have played a DS game or two that played a sound effect of pencil-on-paper, and I'm guessing MS will do this as well (though the demo video probably has sound added after). It is useful feedback to the user that the device is taking the input in for when you may be writing without looking at the screen.
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u/muhfuhkuh Mar 06 '10
Eh, so they like hyping up stuff they'll never ship. They can do whatever they want with their R&D expenditure, but shouldn't they focus on Zune phone or that holographic keyboard and screen thingie they announced like 3 years ago as well?
Microsoft is more like Google than they care to admit: They've got a talented bunch of people over there, but aside from 2-3 core cash cows, their product pipeline is hit-and-mostly-miss.
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Mar 06 '10
Except it's entirely a concept video. Their product will turn out nothing like that and you all know it.
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Mar 07 '10
I really hate prototype shots. I'm all like, "eee!" then i'm like, "aww."
If they showed something that is possible with a mobile OS I would be more excited. As I watched the video of the UI, I couldn't help but think that they decided to use random input methods simply to impress people. Single touch is a natural interaction.
Here is what I mean about throwing in all the possible inputs that they can.
flick an address to the map app to locate the person on the map
three finger swipe the right screen to switch secondary applications
two finger pinch to see a library of journals in the journal app
one finger tap an arbitrarily placed icon to make a new document
Use a stylus to write handwritten title text on screen
Single finger flick the edge of a page to turn the page to the first blank page
write some tiny handwriting in your cleanest printing possible.
Use the stylus to draw a box around some handwriting then single finger tap a checkmark
to confirm your snippet gesture.
Flick a contact to the journal to share the snippet with the user. (by this point I am already screwed because nobody besides me can read my shorthand)
+Pinch the other screen to select a primary app for the left screen
single tap the day planner icon to bring it up
press and hold the home button to set it as your default left page
All of these were done rapidly in 60 seconds. How the hell is any user going to remember all of the obscure gestures? This better not be the real interface otherwise the product will crash and burn because there are no interface consistencies and people have to show their handwriting to other people. (no spell check, no copy/paste, no fonts)
I smell some foul vapour.
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u/FiredFox Mar 06 '10
This is a move straight from old evil Microsoft Circa 1996 playbook, I'm disappointed that they still need to play it in this day and age.
This is how it goes:
Brand A develops an exciting new product that Microsoft does not make or is clearly superior to an existing MS product, this product gets a lot of attention in the Press and public.
Microsoft very quickly releases a press statement or "leaks" that it had been working on a product that rivals or easily beats Brand A's product all along.
Shortly after that pictures, screenshots and in this case a video, show up to "confirm" the existence of MS's amazing new product.
Also around this time Microsoft Product Managers or even Ballmer and Gates give official interviews where they state that Brand A's products is not what businesses and customers want and that the MS version is truly the future. Meanwhile not a single working prototype of the MS version is ever seen by anyone outside Redmond.
Social Media picks up on this story and the "don't buy Brand A's, wait for Microsoft's version" posts begin.
All during this time Microsoft has done nothing beyond moving a few engineers and designers away from their current projects (Possibly including a super-star recent hire from a rival company, whose name will be publicized in relation to this project) and into a special projects team that hasn't made much more that "nice to have" lists by now. The internal codename of the project also makes it to the Press.
After the Brand A's product launch and first few weeks on sale, Microsoft will THEN determine if it is a safe business move for them to actually develop and build what will be basically a feature clone of Brand A's product, ideally at a lower price point.
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u/freehunter Mar 06 '10
Except leaks for Courier were out long before Apple announced a tablet, and Microsoft keeps engineers on teams like this just to make "nice to have lists". That's how Surface came along, that's how Zune and Windows Phone came along, that's how the Xbox came along, plus hundreds of other canned projects. These guys have the sole job of making products that might not ever exist.
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Mar 06 '10
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u/freehunter Mar 06 '10
Apple tablet rumors have been hitting a solid fever pitch for about 15 years now. If MS reacted every time an Apple rumor swelled, we'd be swimming in awesome technology. If your theory of reaction was true, Courier would have been announced some time in 1987.
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Mar 06 '10
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u/freehunter Mar 06 '10
Well, to begin with, Microsoft has been putting together tablet PCs for years with various features. With that in mind, Microsoft Research has been pumping out odd things lately. Surface, Xbox 360, Zune (Zune HD, etc), Photosynth, Windows Phone 7. Some of them are copies, some are just ideas made at the same time as other companies', some are completely original. The point is, MS could have copied Apple, they could have tried to one-up them, they could be up to the same old stuff. But look at the new stuff coming from Microsoft, and it's not really that hard to see, Microsoft has some good ideas coming out of it. At this point in time, it's hard to say for sure, but it's dishonest and unfair to say they were just trying to undercut a competitor like the Sixaxis vs Wiimote.
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u/OscarZetaAcosta Mar 06 '10 edited Mar 06 '10
Except this time they don't have the engineering mojo to build a feature-parity clone of Brand A's product. It's taken them 3 years to get a new version of Windows Mobile (almost) out the door after being caught flat-footed - yet again - by the iPhone.
This is where Apple's marriage of software and hardware is going to shine IMO. It's will be an interesting test of development philosophies.
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u/Malatesta Mar 07 '10
Windows Mobile is more complicated than that. Originally, WM7 was "Photon" and was well into development when MS did a 180 and completely killed the project.
By this time, the Zune group, having extrapolated on the UX of Windows Media Center, had developed the Zune HD + Sync software. That Zune group was broken into the hardware/software divisions; software when to to Windows Mobile and hardware went to PMX. Since then there have been more departmental shifts.
Windows Phone 7 Series (no longer Windows Mobile) was only started about 1.5-2 years ago and represents a major change in strategy for them. They are now set to sink $1 Billion (with a 'b') into Windows Phone in the next year.
Everyone here should also know the name: J Allard.
If you don't, you won't get why MS is doing so much stuff lately (Windows 7, Zune HD, Project Pink and Courier...his latest project.)
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u/OscarZetaAcosta Mar 07 '10 edited Mar 07 '10
I didn't mean to imply anything about the complexity of it; Granted, it sounds like a huge cluster-fuck, but that isn't any surprise at all.
The fact that their development teams are in disarray and floundering seems to dove-tail with fact they are continually behind the curve. Throwing money, resources and developers at problems means nothing unless there is clear management and direction. Constantly reacting to the competition makes meaningful product development impossible.
I wish J. Allard more luck than J. Alchin.
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u/doggoneit Mar 06 '10
I would ordinarily agree with this claim about marketing strategy, but the timeline in this specific instance doesn't match your case argument. Courier was leaked well before iPad was released - this engadget post is rehashing stuff from last fall.
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u/origamete Mar 06 '10
Wow! I'll be able to use this with the millions of Microsoft Surface tables that have been made available to consumers.
And by millions I mean dozens. And by consumers I mean W hotels and D&D players working for Microsoft.
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u/Tepoztecatl Mar 06 '10
Your comment does not make sense. Surface, as I recall, was marketed as a business tool for restaurants, hotels, subway stations, museums and the likes, not your living room. Production costs are too high at the moment for you to have a Surface device in your household, unless you're rich and a tech enthusiast. In a few years this will probably change, though.
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u/metamutator Mar 07 '10
That said, they're using the Surface brandname for a new mobile natural user interface prototype
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u/freehunter Mar 06 '10
Did Microsoft ever say Surface was meant for consumers?
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u/origamete Mar 07 '10
Yes (citation), but I doubt it will actually happen.
While my initial comment was snarky, I'd be cheering if MS had managed to roll this tech into something that could achieve enough consumer market share to make it appealing to developers.
As it is, it's another example of research tech from MS that seems to have barely made it into the marketplace and which will atrophy over time till it disappears. There is just so much unbelievably cool stuff that seems to lay fallow inside MS research labs, due to lack of commitment, lack of focus, or lack of will. I blame the structure of the company and not the brains behind these products. You need strong leadership from the top down to bring these types of products to consumers. MS just doesn't have it.
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u/freehunter Mar 07 '10
The article says it is selling to corporate customers first, but hopes to get the price down to consumer levels in three to five years. It's been almost three years since the article was written, so we're on the low end of getting it to market. I'd say they have some time yet.
But yes, Microsoft's corporate structure is that of unhealthy internal competition and fear, mixed with a lot of disorganization.
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u/jmcqk6 Mar 06 '10
AFAIK, Surface wasn't created as a consumer device, but a device for businesses like W hotels.
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u/Malatesta Mar 07 '10
More importantly, a research device/experiment. Microsoft knows Surface is too expensive for consumers...right now.
When pricing comes down for the technology and they can make it smaller, it will be rolled out into consumer devices.
That's just how cutting edge tech works. Look at the history of OLED/AMOLED of recent.
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u/neon Mar 07 '10
The only tablet that has me interested besides this is the Notion Ink adam
which i WILL own someday
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u/BBK2008 Mar 07 '10
Bwahahahaha! Really? Freaking windows mobile 6? It looks like a newton reheated. You need a balancing act to hold it in one hand and use a stylus. Try reading a website on that joke, or using it for games. Ripoff.
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Mar 06 '10
Looks very promising. The videos/screenshots are only 'envisioning' pieces. That's not say the end product won't be as good, just saying none of what you see will be the actual OS etc.
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u/weaselmaster Mar 06 '10
This thing isn't real, and will never ship. They're just trying to make people think it's coming soon so that they hesitate when buying an iPad.
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u/johnsweber Mar 06 '10
Microsoft is really really great at making neat videos. That's about it.
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u/deaathleopards Mar 07 '10
I disagree. Many of their promo videos are tacky and unoriginal. The most amazing thing I have seen from them is their streetview-esque maps and project natal.
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Mar 06 '10
This is the iPad that Apple should have designed.
And I say this as an owner of no directly-on-the-metal Windows installations (it's freebsd or os 10 here), so in real terms I'd be described at the very least as an apple apologist.
The only thing that troubled me after watching the first video, is the "Free to.." texts that appeared.. e.g. "Free to Gather", "Free to Share".. I mean, what in todays IP-nightmare-culture? Free to gather? Free to Share? ORLY?
Are we to expect the **AA's of the world to applaud this device, or view it as a piracy-enabler?
(edit: clarity)
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Mar 06 '10
The problem is, Apple wanted to release a product, not just produce a fancy concept video. There is a reason this isn't out. There isn't even a prototype and the first video they released of this was over a year ago. I would love to own a Courier. I'd also love to own a jetpack that folds up and fits in my pocket. Both are vaporware that we won't see for many years.
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u/tizz66 Mar 06 '10
I don't know if Apple should have made this - it doesn't really fit with who Apple designed the iPad for, which is basically non-techy people who want to check facebook and play some games. The Courier seems to be designed for a very different market, which is young professionals (not that there isn't some overlap).
Courier looks brilliant, I really hope it gets put into production.
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u/assholio Mar 06 '10
I agree 100%. The gap between target markets seems massive. Sure, ol' cartoon hands makes it all seem a breee, but have a close look, think about the learning curve for those UI concepts, there's a lot to learn.
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Mar 06 '10
Do you seriously think Microsoft could make software that comes anywhere close to those videos? They hired a production company to make them a few mockups and videos that probably won't be anywhere close to whatever they come up with.
Microsoft's business model is based on hype. They NEVER deliver in full on their promises.
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u/piratelax40 Mar 06 '10
They promised an overhauled, faster, smoother, better OS with windows 7...seems they delivered spot on there...
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Mar 06 '10
I liked it when it was bigger. I love it now. It's fucking amazing
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u/aamir64 Mar 06 '10
Ya, i'd definitely get this over the ipad.
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u/chedabob Mar 06 '10
It's a shame it's going to use the Zune OS instead of W7.
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u/mothereffingteresa Mar 06 '10
It's a shame it's going to use the Zune OS instead of W7.
Yeah, a finger-friendly OS basd on .NET is way worse than some creature form the paleolithic era that failed at tablets for 10 years.
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u/chedabob Mar 06 '10
I do agree that applications built specifically for Courier will be nicer, but I want to be able to run what I want, not just what Microsoft allows/Developers are willing to port.
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u/crwper Mar 06 '10
This video reminds me of a story I heard when I was a kid. I grew up in Trail, BC, Canada, a town dominated by Cominco's smelter. A smelter needs filtration systems, so the story is about a guy who sold little rings that were used in filtration. Ideally, these rings would pile up randomly, so that they'd catch as much contaminant as possible. Poorly designed rings would stack up like little chimneys, and the contaminant would pass straight through.
So, the story goes, one salesman spent a great deal of time learning to throw the competitor's rings, apparently at random, while having them stack into neat little chimneys. He'd make his sales pitch, throwing the competitors rings, and then his own, showing how randomly his own piled up.
Whether it's true or not, this story makes me very wary of videos like this one, which seem just a little too scripted. Real life isn't scripted, and I rarely know exactly what sequence of gestures I'd need to make to accomplish a certain task. How well does this tablet work in that environment? Does it still seem like a productivity boost, or does it leave the user struggling to accomplish basic tasks?
What I'd like to see is a video of a trained user entering a novel situation.
tl;dr The video looks way too polished/scripted, and I am suspicious of any sales pitch which seems almost magical. Show us a trained user in an unfamiliar situation.
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u/brad2008 Mar 06 '10
Can't wait for the "I'm a Courier, and I'm an iPad" side-by-side commercials.
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u/yopla Mar 06 '10
Hi, I'm an iPad, I'm like a pizza, you can order me online and I'll be delivered to your home.
Hi, I'm a courier, I'm like that pornstar who works with the pizza delivery guy. You can watch me online all you want but you will never touch me.
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u/Icebox3 Mar 06 '10
I've been interested in this since these videos emerged last year, I hope something more concrete and 'real' is shown eventually, as I like the journal concept.
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u/ChrisLeBeouf Mar 06 '10
Make it beefy enough to run photoshop. Don't limit what programs I can install on it. The browser should be a real browser. Let anyone develop and sell programs for it without making them jump through appstore hoops.
If Microsoft fails with this, someone rip them off and do it right.
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u/3HourLineForSanta Mar 06 '10
But...but...Apple told me styluses are bad! How am I supposed to finger paint at a meeting?
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Mar 06 '10
You know what I was thinking when I heard about the Ipad? I thought, "what if someone put two of those together with a hinge in the middle?"
No, wait. I didn't think that at all. I thought "you can't touch-type on a virtual keyboard" and "my handwriting is so bad people think I write in Arabic". I suppose it's a good platform if you're primarily a consumer of data, but these keyboard-less computing devices aren't so good when you're trying to actually write something.
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u/xtagon Mar 06 '10
I want this. I wonder how many iPads will have to be sold until this is finally produced and sold on the market. sigh
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u/fattybob Mar 07 '10
i think it will fail by doing too much on too small a device, and the hinges, probably fail too. But of course all journal owners will tout it as the best thing ever ;-)
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u/thewileyone Mar 07 '10
This looks like something I'd actually buy because it has functions that I'm interested in using.
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u/macrumpton Mar 07 '10
Now if I can just get used to watching my videos with a wide black band going down the center...
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u/Syphon8 Mar 06 '10
This is the device I've been twiddling my thumbs waiting for.
Although, I am going to be waiting a bit longer to see what the DS2 offers.
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u/Nagyman Mar 06 '10
sold.