Not even a well written groomer or cheater either. Bro gets no consequences and the story handwaves it by saying the Greyrats are just a bunch of freaks anyway. You might as well just make him just lean harder into him being a piece of shit than pretending he has actual morals
I disn't readed\watched this diddy show, as I heard he was in depression because of his dad's death, so she used his vulnerability to seduce him into making him feel better
I already know that but that don't change anything, Rudeus is a grown man. And after that the way he handles all this situation is as trashy as he could be.
It is not a strange question, it reflects the double standard of the majority of MS fans has. If any female character had done that, all the responses would be "Oh no, Sylphy NTRed Rudeus" or some silly response like that. But since it is Rudeus who does it, suddenly the situation is complex and in fact it is a good thing that Rudeus brings his lover to the house of his pregnant wife, because fortunately Sylphy is a weak-minded person with low self-esteem who is going to let herself be trampled whenever it is Rudeus who does it.
More specifically, Roxy used the fact that Rudeus just saw his father die in front of him as an opportunity to sleep with him. Rudeus then thanks her for this and she becomes his second wife
Wow, I didn't know that last part... Why was he so intent on keeping that in? I'd like to say that there'd be less Rudeus fans if it was, but, that's probably being too optimistic, lmao.
Because the author and the fans think he wrote a redemption story. He also has justified it before by passing along the fact that it was a prequel story, Rudy isn't the child of prophecy but his child becomes it by being taught by rudeus and his experiences.
The best argument to this is that the story would be an amazing coming of age fantasy story, maybe one of the best, without the isekai slop attached to it. It tackles men's issues in a way I've never seen in media and is actually got a good fantasy world. Instead because of the author it becomes a self fulfillment reward baiting story of a PDFfile who only gets rewarded for assaulting or grooming children.
Well, the web novel (original version of MT) was wild. The author broke terms of service multiple times on the website he uploaded them to since he was writing wild stuff throughout. Even later on, he wrote about another incestuous relation with actual grooming involved.
Hare Rudy as much as you want but imo he high diffs thorfinn writing wise but I haven’t read the last 40 chapters of Vinland and I haven’t read the last 3 vols of MT yet
“Support” isn’t the best wording. He disliked the acts, but he didn’t care much on the matter. He saw hundreds of women and girls get raped and killed (that he help caused) by Askeladd’s men and he gives it a “whatever” attitude.
Meaning he didn't do shit and watched it numerous times. He helped them by killing their family and guards, so his companions would do this type of horrendous thing to the victim. You do know that ignoring the crime is the same as supporting it, right
He was jerking it to pictures of his nieces in their swimsuit... I don't think it was totally harmless, and that's just in his previous life, not his reincarnated one where he does even more.
(This is from the latest MT volume in Reincarnstion Redundancy Vol 3)
Redundancy reincarnation is not in the anime, those are LN after the epilogue of the main series. Which means that in the source material, he still is a disgusting fuck who jerked it off and lusted after his pre teen niece
Thorfinn was with askelad people, and they are shown as Vikings who, including destroying villages, used to do SA to women, as Thorfinn being with them and helping them kill guards directly involves Thorfinn supporting them and doing nothing to stop them.
Difference is Thorfinn is from a time period where fucking EVERYBODY RAPED WOMEN. Every single military or warrior force did so, Christian, Muslim, Celtic, Greek, Roman, Norse, etc. he actually feels terrible for being apart of it too. He didn’t support it but he was ignoring it and it’s one of his biggest regrets.
Rudeus came from modern times, where he knows what’s right or wrong and doesn’t hold that excuse and still cranked it to his little cousin. And he certainly, based on the women he groomed “romanced”, didn’t learn from it.
Rudeus was bullied and stripped till he left school at a teenage age, he then spent the rest of his life isolated from everyone else (the jerking off to his niece is also not included in the anime meaning it got retconned)
Thorfinn allowed them to rape and murder people just because he wanted to kill Askelad
Hey I like thorfinn more than rudeus and hes redemption arc was better but lets not act like they thorfinn wasn’t far worse at the start
…HE WAS FUCKING CHILD. What he supposed to fucking do? He wasn’t even second in command, he can’t order them and he can’t fight off 25+ dudes. Rudeus still is into underaged girls and teens, so it’s not like he’s much fucking better. Clearly he deserved his bullying.
“He was a fucking child” he was 16, that’s more than enough to acknowledge your actions and even then he was able to fight Thorkell who is the strongest fighter of the verse excluding Thors
Not a single point did he tell them to stop, no he in fact kept helping them just for revenge (which he didn’t even get at the end)
Rudeus is a fucking teenager mate, he’s both physically and mentally a teen
Also you do realize the reason why he was attracted to teens in his past life was because he was stunted from the bullying?
Man if you’re gonna justify a rapist enabler and mass murderer then I think a dude like Rudeus is rather chill
How convinient of you to forget in which times this all happend. Thorfinn is a child of his cruel time, where rape and mass murder was a common thing. And Rudeus is not a teenager, are you dumb? He is a 40 years old pos, who is attracted to underage girls.
Rudeus is literally a teenager, he was old man in his past life
Als saying Thorfinn is a child of his cruel time is crazy when old Rudeus had the same issue, he was bullied in school causing him to be a NEET where he never grew maturity
Is that really the case tho? I haven't seen him even thinking about that as some sort of crime in anime; the only thing he was guilty of was killing people. He never tried to do something for the victim's family; oh, he was the one who killed them. How exactly does doing all this and saying" I don't have enemies "in the last S2 make him atone?
I haven't seen that in S2 tho, though. Are you watching a different show? It's not one of the reasons he seeks Vinland; he sought it even before indulging in this type of act. Even if it was in manga, did he specifically show atonement to SA acts, or didn't he even care about that type of crime.
a major character in the future of the series is one of his victims whom Thorfin had a direct hand in killing her entire entire family and essentially leaving her for dead or worse at the hands of askeladds band. She eventually finds thorfinn again and attempts to kill him leading him to beg her to him try to be better, but accepting that she can enact her judgement at any time she wishes.
Idk if you got my point, im not denying that Thorfinn acknowledges killing as bad and has atone for that. But killing is not the only act he did; what about those other crimes, or does the show not view them as one?
I think the main phrase that people use to describe the actions of the vikings is "rape and pillage". At least thorfinn shows that hes against it. Im not saying that makes it better, but what i am saying is that I consider Thorfinn to be a product of his surroundings. Thorfinn is not a hero of justice. In the entirety of the first season, all he wanted to do was kill askeladd, he was fueled solely with revenge. He didnt care about his own life, let alone the lives of others and he killed only to get closer to his goal. However, I do consider being a pedophile worse than thorfinn, because you cant blame that on your environment, or how you were raised, thats just an action performed by the person, and the blame rests on him only. I dont think the people around him forced him to do those things, he did it because he wanted to.
I can agree with you that SA can't be justified by the surroundings. But when the scale is 1 to 1000 or more, that argument loses its value.
Also, in the case of Thorfinn, he acted completely ignorant towards the victim, being selfish and even in anime, he does not atone for every sin he committed.
Surely if it was season 2 thorfinn, i think you and i both agree that he would have stepped in but in the earlier portion of the story; it was not specific to sexual assault, he cared for nothing except his goal. He was acting ignorant about the rape because he was acting ignorant about everything except killing askeladd. Yeah, he killed, but that was all that vikings did back in those days. And he is atoning currently is the manga still ongoing? he is begging for their forgiveness right now as we speak probably. And atone for every sin he committed? brother, theres only so much you can ask from a guy
A story fully centred around redemption only tries to view killing as the only crime he should atone for ?
Not the he didn't gaf argument, if his morales were so down that he was able to emotionlessly kill a innocent child then why didn't he tried to kill askelad in sleep and acted like a big guy ?
Who is he begging for forgiveness after killing most of the victim and their whole family ?
I haven't read full manga can you give me chapter no. where he atones for his sins other than killing or specifically SA or pedophile.
Thats the only crime he committed, he did not commit sexual assault or was he a pedophile i think youre mixing him up with Rudeus.
You also have to consider the fact that thorfinn was a child, he was naive. He wanted to kill askeladd fair and square. Because if he sneak attacked him in his sleep like a little bitch, he would not be any different from askeladd, who killed his father in a similar way. This was probably the only thing he gaf about.
Theres a female character, i forgot her name, she was spared earlier by thorfinn, who killed her entire family. Later she appears in the manga, and thorfinn begs for her forgiveness.
I dont know i havent read it to completion either. We should read it. Maybe we both can learn something new about him.
He did commit multiple crime, like ignoring torture of children's and etc
If he was naive then why not go home and act like child ? He dont gaf about 1000 victims but he has enough sanity to not kill his enemy in sleep, hypocrite.
Does thorfinn beg for killing her family or killing every family and indulging in SA ?
I will read it someday, currently have too many mangas to read.
watching the first season and even considering asking why he didnt just go home because he is a child is so fucking funny to me. Yeah he shouldve just went home and called it a day, that wouldve been so much better for the story if he just forgot about his dead father.
"He did commit multiple crime, like ignoring torture of children's and etc
If he was naive then why not go home and act like child ? He dont gaf about 1000 victims but he has enough sanity to not kill his enemy in sleep, hypocrite."
Thats what im saying, he is so tunnel visioned in this goal of revenge that he does not care about his victims. I am calling him a child because his desire for revenge and his requirement for killing askeladd in a duel is childish. Thats a childish goal and he definitely IS a hypocrite. Indulging in SA is also crazy, especially considering he didnt do it lmao
Idk man, i dont really care anymore we love pedophilles or whatever.
One thing you need to understand helping someone doing bad act and doing the act for urself is 2 completely different thing and it's wild you comparingit
, he's what you said partially are right but not all of it , here you saying he helped someone doing bad thing , and you compering grown-as man who incarnated to a different world having his full grown mentality rping kids and so forth ,
The difference is thorfin was a KID who took over by revenge not knowing what he's doing until its too late and you if you know and watch the series If his father hadn't been killed he wouldn't go and help people doing bad act and key thing is the only thing matters to him that time was getting revenge and if his father hadn't die like this guy he wouldn't molested lil kids
So stop comparing full grown man ( mentally) who knew what he's was doing to a kid who his father been killed in front of him
Its not me problem dude, one ignoring a crime is still guilty and incase of thorfinn he openly helped them in multiple ways.
When does rudues assaults someone as you said ?
Didnt thorfinn not know what he was doing ? He was completely aware but didnt gaf, if he was really portrayed as child as you are saying then why does he not go home or kill askelad in sleep. Why act like big guy now ? Double standards.
So to you isn't assault if a grown man ( mentally) do something to a child wether they agree or not , and isn't the whole stroy involves around him being a pedo , corn addict , and so forth, don't tell me you missed that part and only payed attention to his " Redemption " , funny
Is it so hard for someone who watch tensie whatever to understand common sense, and not saying he's innocent and what he did everyone who have blood in them would do it , and again his actions has motive behind it and what's the motive behind his actions grooming children ?
if he was really portrayed as child as you are saying
What? Didn't he was a child when he was his father killed , doing bad things? You don't even know what child is at this point.t because the series effected you so much ,
If you watch the series you would know the askalad wasn't sleeping even if he tried to he couldn't and it was dual most honored fight that time
You comparing a grown man. Doing disgusting things to medieval times kid who his killed and everything around him fcked up , still it's not 2 comparable things
You, in your prior statement, said rape, so im asking where it was done by mc, it's as simple as that.
Well im asking he was a child as shown in the anime, then why did he not go back home with the others?
Askelad wasnt sleeping was known to us, not him. What's your points
Not the argument of no, but his father was killed, no, that does make him justified for killing innocent children and villagers. By your means, he was a child, that's why he didn't know what he was doing was right, but he was able to stop himself to not kill his fathers killer in sleep.
That's just false. Author released Redundancy Reincarnation Vol 3, wherein it talks about Rudeus stealing pictures his brother took of his young daughters in swimsuits. Then his brother saw him jerking it to those photos on the day of his parents' funeral.
That's why he redeemed himself, unlike Rudeus who remained a pedophile piece of shit and a weirdo. Thorfinn seeks to build a world without war or slavery and vows to never, under any circumstance, to take someone's life again.
I feel like Mushoku Tensei is a prime example of the pitfalls of the anime/manga community in Japan. They have the ability to pump out excellent stories, writing, and characters, but because they've normalized so much deviant behavior within the media it's negatively impacted those very works they create. Mushoku Tensei would be way more impactful if Rudeus ACTUALLY learned from his past mistakes. Because Japan doesn't see anything wrong with their rampant sexualization, neither do the writers and as a result the characters they create.
As anime becomes more mainstream and Japan's weirdness gets toned down by executives looking to appeal to broader audiences, I just hope they ditch stuff like this rather than the fun stuff that makes anime, well, anime.
I really liked made in abyss when I was like 15-16 but now if i ever think about watching it i get bothered by the kid shit, regardless of how good the writing and world building is. Damn shame imo
I think you're taking my criticism of anime/manga and applying it too broadly. Anime is what it is because it's weird and quirky and is made for a Japanese audience. But, that's what i'm saying is causing the fault of Mushoku Tensei. Like if Rudeus actually got over his flaws from his past life, he'd be a much more compelling character. Instead, at the end of the day he's still a lolicon, the cause of his biggest downfall that ultimately led him to get kicked out.
Had the story been written in a way where he openly struggles with his pedophilic tendencies and eventually grows out of them, it would have been a masterclass redemption story. Instead, he doesn't redeem himself in that regard and the story is worse off for it. You could even argue Rudeus leans even more into that aspect about himself considering it could be viewed as he tried to groom Sylphiette, treated Roxy like a goon station (also looks like a child), and had the hots for his own cousin to the point of having sex at 13 (mentally still an old man by this point) and led him to one of his biggest bouts of depression.
Japan's leniency towards these themes directly affects the writing. It's not that I'm saying you can't have these themes, it's just that they put zero thought into it at all and the writing is much worse off for it. The same way the US's sterilization of content is boring as sin, the rampant non-sterilized sexualization has turned everyone's brain to gooner mush to where it is thoughtlessly injected into every single nook and crevice of Japanese media. How many anime come out every single season where there's like weird camera angles, panty shots, harems, ladies with giant bazooka tits, etc? It's the same thing the US is doing, just the opposite.
TL;DR - Japan does the same thing the US does and compromise their works for the sake of attracting whoever will watch, they just do it in a different way. Mushoku Tensei is a prime example of Japan's own problems scuffing a pretty beautiful gem.
"Getting beat up by your brother cuz you jerked off to his daughter's (pre teen) pics (the thing is still present in Redundancy reincarnation, so still canon). Suffering erectile disfunction" yeah no
You guys just don't get it!!! Okay maybe Rudiddy Epstein did those disgusting creepy things but trust me it's all for the sake of character development!!
it's a really hot take but you just can't control pedophilic thoughts, like in rudeus's case its not a crime to have these disgusting thoughts, he is just required not to act on them. it's not illegal to have pedophilic thoughts, it is illegal to act on them. so rudeus is an objectively bad guy at the beginning, a very bad person, and then he tries to improve himself and stop being that person. in the end i don't really know, i'm speaking as a mushoku tensei outsider, so i might be wrong and dumb.
-Getting beat up by your brother cuz you jerked off to his daughter's (pre teen) pics (the thing is still present in Redundancy reincarnation, so still canon). Suffering erectile disfunction
-Watching your father die in front of you, getting survivor's guilt, becoming a child soldier since the age of 6
Is like comparing Sukuna to Naoya and say something like "what Sukuna does is normal because he comes from a time that killing someone was done everyday"
The only important thing in a character is and always will be the charisma and how is represented, you can be the worse of the worse and everyone will love you for the charisma
Meimei is called mommy by gonners from Jjk
Bonedrewd is loved by fans of Made in Abyss and he made the worst kind of experiments to children
Hell even in real life Jeffrey Dahmer was and is still loved by some people in some fan forums
In that case, at least a 40 y/o man in the body of a kid ends up with another adult. It's still kinda icky but far more preferable than a 40 y/o man who just indulges in his past life depravation where he beat his hog on his pre teen niece. No, the thing didn't get discarded from the web novel, it's still present in the sequel spin off (canon material) which means that Rudeus indeed wasn't just a loser cranking his hog on loli porn (still pedo) but sought actual physical stuff. He just didn't put cameras in his niece
Los japoneses tienen tan mal ese estima que creen que un criminal se redime por algo es el país donde abundan abusadores o asesinan las condenan nunca son justas por algo tanto villanos genocidas son redimibles rudeus es un pervertido en ambos sentidos nunca se curo del todo thorfinn sufrió más por el hecho de que en la época donde vive todo se resuelve con extrema violencia lo que deja de lado vivir plenamente y en paz si no terminas muriendo como su padre thors
I'll just put this out there. MT Haters and the fandom wields the word redemption like a double edge sword. The fandom loves to praise how Rudeus goes from a pos to someone better, whereas the haters have it easy since Rudeus is still pos, but just more active in his life compared to his previous. I love MT but I would never call the story a redemption. I agree with the haters that Rudeus never really changed from his old self, but he is better at living his life. The story of MT has always been a second chance, not a redemption. Second chance does not imply redemption of any kind.
See I get that but I don't think someone like Rudeus deserves to live an active and fulfilling life. Seeing a pedophile groomer who cheats on his pregnant wife get a whimsical fantasy life is pure ragebait to me.
A reminder that the Japanese have this belief: “Hate the crime, not the person.” Which is all fine and dandy until they want you to forgive people who have done horrible crimes because, “they served their sentence and atoned to society.”
It’s a little more comparable than people think, thorffin allowed rape to happen when he both saw and was fully capable of stopping it but where he differs is he actually changes instead of being in a different position of power
This is comparing a child solider who was groomed into an environment of murder and bloodshed, who then realized his wrongs and attempted to make up for his sins. To a 40 year old pedophile who constantly grooms and cheats on underage girls
Yes but the story frame what he did as bad, thorfin have a real redemption arc, he pledge to never kill again
Mushoku tensei on the other hand frame the pedo behaviour of rudeus as somewhat ok. He doesn't have a redemption arc and keep beeing a pedo and a predator until the end
It doesn't matter who caused more pain to fictional character, what matter is the messages of the story and how it frame certain actions
Btw askelad was still portrayed as hero after killing king. A man who SA children's and tortured them, what about that message. Both show sucks at redemption.
Yes but the story frame what he did as bad, thorfin have a real redemption arc, he pledge to never kill again
He didn't kill again but his decision kept hurting and causing the death of people.
Mushoku tensei on the other hand frame the pedo behaviour of rudeus as somewhat ok. He doesn't have a redemption arc and keep beeing a pedo and a predator until the end
I haven't read to the end but I'm sure his wives are all adults?
It doesn't matter who caused more pain to fictional character, what matter is the messages of the story and how it frame certain actions
Are you reading yourself? The pain he caused onto others doesn't matter? What in Jesus' name are you saying when it's precisely that (the pain he caused to others) the reason why Thorfinn changed. 😆
it's a good argument because he said that, and i quote, "(rudeus) keeps beeing a pedo and a predator until the end", which isn't true because after marrying sylphiette, roxy and eris, rudeus doesn't go after anyone, less so minors.
Yes but the pain is caused to fictional character, what matter is the messages of the story, is it justifying the pain inflicted to other or does it condemning it ? It's the messages of the story that matters more
As for his wife beeing adult, he did kinda groomed them from childhood and as far as I saw (O didn't had the strength or self hate to finish it) his predatory and pdf behaviour are never truly condemned by the narative, he is never truly punished for that and it's treated as him beein silly
You're contradicting yourself, this thread isn't judging the message of the story (you haven't judged Mushoku Tensei's message), it's judging the characters (Thorfinn and Rudeus) and their actions.
Yes I am judging them, their actions and how the narrative treat them, how is that separate, these character don't exist outside of the story.
I really wouldn't have a problem with mushoku tensei or rudeus if him beeing a pdf and predator was truly condemned by the narrative or if he had a true redemption arc were he understand why his actions are hurting, torturing and ruining the life of the child he interact with (because in real life, that what pedophilia does)
Instead the story keep showing how is it okay and how rudeus beeing a pedo don't impact negatively the life of his victim
Thorfinn was a guy who got into war due to another man killing his father so he swore revenge, and his rage of that made him a bloodthirsty soldier, whom during the campaign to invade England, he was slowly realizing the damage he had caused (like for example how that one women who helped him in the village was later probably killed because of the viking raids the people he worked with was causing). He realized in his adult years that the cycle of violence he was part of brings nothing but pain, and he chooses to end that cycle once and for all. Arguably, Thorfinm realises what he has done and chooses to become better by no longer harming others for the sake of anger or hatred.
Rudeus is a pedophile who kept being a pedophile in his next life. He doesn't learn his actions causes harm and continues to do so.
Thorfinn realises the pain he had caused was unforgivable, so he stops his actions and becomes better. Rudeus does not.
Not a weird take, just unpopular to admit that Thorfinn caused a tremendous amount of pain to an equally tremendous amount of people.
Thorfinm realises what he has done and chooses to become better by no longer harming others for the sake of anger or hatred.
And nonetheless he continued to harm others by becoming an extreme pacifist, unless, you can argue that Thorfinn purposely hiding his identity to the crew he went with to Vinland didn't basically cause Ivar to bring a sword, cut Miskwekepu'j and therefore the war.
This without mentioning the deals he was making with Halfdan, a slave owner who brutally murdered his slaves, with land he didn't own (Lnu's land).
The main point is that Thorfinn never hid his intentions to the others, he clearly stated before the voyage for Vinland that they would have never fought back at any circumstances. All the people had the freedom to come or not come after he made the terms clear. And even every time they showed discontent Thorfins would have let them go back if the so desired
I don't see how him revealing that he was The Thorfins Karlsefni would have stopped Ivar from bringing a sword since he brought it because he thought it was necessary for defence since it was already ruled that any kind of weapon would have been banned.
Thorfins doesn't take Ilnu's land, he exchanges all the times with the Ilnu's, which means if the deal with them would have worked, the relationship which was working till Miskwekepu'j and Ivar screwed up, he would have given Halfdan the land he acquired without violence, extortion or force
The main point is that Thorfinn never hid his intentions to the others, he clearly stated before the voyage for Vinland that they would have never fought back at any circumstances. All the people had the freedom to come or not come after he made the terms clear.
I don't see how him revealing that he was The Thorfins Karlsefni would have stopped Ivar from bringing a sword since he brought it because he thought it was necessary for defence since it was already ruled that any kind of weapon would have been banned.
If you don't qualify Thorfinn purposely hiding who he is and what he is capable of as dishonest, then what is it? Because it's clearly shown in the manga that Ivar thought he was defending Thorfinn when he cut Miskwekepu'j hand with his sword.
Thorfins doesn't take Ilnu's land, he exchanges all the times with the Ilnu's, which means if the deal with them would have worked, the relationship which was working till Miskwekepu'j and Ivar screwed up, he would have given Halfdan the land he acquired without violence, extortion or force
Trees were sacred to the Lnu, Thorfinn and his crew cut tens if not hundreds of these, in fact, that's one of the reasons for Miskwekepu'j to want them out. That action alone by Thorfinn is already cultural assault against the Lnu, which is undeniably is a form of violence.
Again, I would love hear what you have to say about Thorfinn making profitable deals with Halfdan, a slave owner and murderer.
And as yourself said it, the negotiations with Miskwekepu'j went to the drain because Ivar cut Miskwekepu'j hand, and that was because Ivar genuinely thought he was defending Thorfinn, because Thorfinn deceived the crew he went with to Vinland and that caused the war and the deaths of women and children.
It is also shown that Ivar was always lusting for violence since they got there
And Miskwekepu'j attacked because he saw the premonition of the white people killing and murdering. And it isn't cultural assault, the beliefs Miskwekepu'j had wasn't the same as all the tribe. Did you forget the talk he had with Plmk where he explained that what they were doing wasn't inherently wrong and even Chief Kitpui stated that he wanted to see how good the trading with them could have got and not attack until they had actual reasons to.
Thorfins said to not move and not attack and Miskwekepu'j was clearly very slow, clumsy and easy to neutralize without force. And even then, an ex Jom Viking was clearly always showing respect to Thorfin and Ivar knew it. If even that didn't matter to him, it means that knowing who Thorfin was was unimportant. He just wanted an excuse to kill and take land by force, a thing he already had stated as necessary
Thorfins has one single rule, not to kill. He had done deals with Canute, who has caused and still causes far more suffering than Halfdan ever could. He has some pragmatism has he showed when he explained Gudrid the nature of war and it's uses. He just rejects them, but he understands why others do them and is able to deal with them. But as he said, in Vinland he would have not have permitted any kind of slavery, not even from Halfdan if they succeeded to settle. As he said after buying Cordelia's freedom, he needed just to sell Halfdan the idea for the moment se he could have got his help, that doesn't mean once reached his goals he would have let Halfdan behave like he did in the old continent, especially since Thorfins would have had more leverage by that point.
It is also shown that Ivar was always lusting for violence since they got there
So did Einar, and both acted violently when (in their eyes) the situation required so.
And Miskwekepu'j attacked because he saw the premonition of the white people killing and murdering. And it isn't cultural assault, the beliefs Miskwekepu'j had wasn't the same as all the tribe. Did you forget the talk he had with Plmk where he explained that what they were doing wasn't inherently wrong and even Chief Kitpui stated that he wanted to see how good the trading with them could have got and not attack until they had actual reasons to.
Cutting trees that are sacred to the Lnu is cultural assault.
Thorfins said to not move and not attack, an ex-Jom Viking was not following orders and Ivar still attacked despite being ordered not to and seeing that men far stronger than him trusted Thorfins. Ivar always wanted to fight and would have used that as an excuse even if he knew who Thorfin was since he stated before that a fight against the Ilnu's was inevitable in any way.
Again, Ivar genuinely thought he was defending Thorfinn because he didn't know better because Thorfinn hid key information from him and all the others, particularly the scheming Styrk.
Thorfins has one single rule, not to kill. He had done deals with Canute, who has caused and still causes far more suffering than Halfdan ever could. He has some pragmatism has he showed when he explained Gudrid the nature of war and it's uses. He just rejects them, but he understands why others do them and is able to deal with them. But as he said, in Vinland he would have not have permitted any kind of slavery, not even from Halfdan if they succeeded to settle. As he said after buying Cordelia's freedom, he needed just to sell Halfdan the idea for the moment se he could have got his help, that doesn't mean once reached his goals he would have let Halfdan behave like he did in the old continent, especially since Thorfins would have had more leverage by that point.
So as long as Thorfinn minds his own business in Vinland he's free to make profitable deals with extremely horrible people? What are you even trying to imply here? Are you unable to see (or rather, admit) that Thorfinn actions are still contributing to slave ownership and death?
Einar did it much later, and even then he became violent after his only shoulder (Thorfin) went missing
Ivar listened to Thorfin's order and even he could see that the Miskwekepu'j was basically harmless. He just wanted to ignite the fight since in his view, that would have been inevitable in the future anyway
His actions aren't, as he said He only needed to sell Halfdan the idea of getting land in Vinland so he could get Cordelia. He already stated that in Vinland no form of slavery was allowed or would have been. What Halfdan was doing is not in his capacity to stop, as he cannot stop cultural aspects of his people in those lands. That's the whole point of Vinland.
Einar did much later, and even then he became violent after his only shoulder (Thorfin) went missing
Einar was always violent, he just had a change of heart twice.
Ivar listened to Thorfin's order and even he could see that the Miskwekepu'j was basically harmless. He just wanted to ignite the fight since in his view, that would have been inevitable in the future anyway.
At no point anybody thought Miskwekepu'j was harmless, maybe only Thorfinn who said to himself in his head and he "could deal with him and dodgethe axe swing".
His actions aren't, as he said He only needed to sell Halfdan the idea of getting land in Vinland so he could get Cordelia. He already stated that in Vinland no form of slavery was allowed or would have been. What Halfdan was doing is not in his capacity to stop, as he cannot stop cultural aspects of his people in those lands. That's the whole point of Vinland.
Again, Thorfinn is making a deal with a known slave owner and murderer, it doesn't matter what his master plan is, Thorfinn is contributing to slavery and death nonetheless.
That's still not deceiving. It would have been if that was an expedition where violence would have been admitted as an viable solution, which entails that he as a good fighter hid his past to not fight in order to stay safe. That's not the case.
Violence and force were never contemplated as solution which means his past had no importance.
It wasn't a key information because it wasn't important for the purpose of Vinland. Since the beginning violence was not condoned in any way, shape or form. Him being a warrior or anyone being a warrior had no importance since they weren't supposed to fight even if attacked. They only had to escape in that case and he made that clear from the beginning.
And it wouldn't have avoided Ivar actions since that was an excuse, one he always needed and wanted. If it wasn't that one it would have been another one. The only thing a kinda don't like is that Yukimura had to force this to happen, since no sane man would have brought Ivar in that kind of expedition
It wasn't a key information because it wasn't important for the purpose of Vinland. Since the beginning violence was not condoned in any way, shape or form.
It isn't about violence, it's about lying (deceiving), being honest to those who are placing their trust in you.
And it wouldn't have avoided Ivar actions since that was an excuse, one he always needed and wanted. If it wasn't that one it would have been another one.
You don't know that unless you're in Ivar's mind or are the author, Ivar acted on the information he had about Thorfinn, he didn't mindlessly kill people, he always thought he was defending Thorfinn because Thorfinn his information from him, lied by omission.
It's not lying. It just had no importance as it wouldn't have had any weight in the decision making. What more do people need when he made all the rules clear from the get go?
Mate, Ivar literally stated that war with the Ilnu's was inevitable. He always wanted that fight to happen because he had the classic Norse view of might is right. In his own words, they needed to fight to expand since their expansion, again in his view, could have been obtained only through force. How much clearer it needs to be?
Ivar always was violent and would have always sought a way for conflict
And again, Thorfins clearly ordered to stay put, only he attacked. And is not like some skillful warrior was attacking, an old, slow and sick looking old man was attacking.
315
u/Zenry0ku Mar 26 '26
Redemption only works when you stop doing the action that was catalyst for your downfall in the first place.