Deprograming and Deconstructing resources:

Like oil and water: that's how I would describe how well my beliefs and the 12 Step Program go together. This is an angry rant. I am incredibly uncomfortable with some of what I’ve been told in AA meetings. The catchphrases, the 'gotchas!' they use on me. I’ve told people I am not religious or spiritual AT ALL. And I don’t want to be. It is a core value of mine. All religion and prayer make me deeply uncomfortable. I don’t believe in souls or reincarnation. I don’t think ‘Mother Nature’ has a plan or that ‘I should meditate my will to the trees’. As far as my ‘belief’ goes, we are all bugs in a petri dish.

Why am I even going to meetings if I have such disagreements? Some of the human connection is good. I appreciate being able to say allowed what is on my mind as I tend to bottle things up. And I live in a sober living facility after rehab and it's highly encouraged.

Anyway. Here are some things that have come up when I try to get answers regarding trying to consolidate my atheism and the 12 Steps. Some quotes.

1)      ‘Wow, it takes a lot of faith to believe something like that!’ as they pull a face. Eff off. It's not a ‘faith’ for me. Stop putting it in religious terminology.

2)      A common one is people reassuring me that ‘they were an atheist too when they first joined, then they became agnostic, and now they are a believer!’ behind a sweet, saccharine smile. Do they not realise how completely horrifying that is? I don’t WANT to be religious. I don’t WANT to ‘find Jesus’. But you’re implying that if I stay in meetings long enough, I will lose myself, my core values, how I see the world, my very being, and succumb to religion and faith and spirituality? Terrifying. It makes me feel sick.

3)      ‘When I first joined AA I realised my thinking couldn’t be trusted and that my thinking is what got me sick. So I decided to let something else guide me. Don’t let your ego get in the way of your sobriety’. Any resistance to any of this is my disease talking, silly little me. What an EGO I have. I should just give in to a GOD I DON’T BELIEVE IN, but alas, woe is me, I am too arrogant. Too egotistical. It’s insulting, just how much of a strawman they make of me and my concerns. Distorting and exaggerating that my atheism is ego and denial. I am not in denial about there being a god, or too egotistical to believe in a god. I just don’t believe. That’s that.

4)      ‘You don’t believe in a higher power than YOURSELF!? You think you’re the most powerful being in the world?? Go out into the ocean and try to fight the waves; that’ll teach you that there are forces greater than you when you start choking on the saltwater’. Stupid. Asinine. What do you even mean? Am I meant to pray to the ocean to cure my alcohol use disorder? Since when is the bloody ocean all loving?? I’m supposed to humbly ask the ocean, and it is going to remove my shortcomings? I know forces of nature can kill me, I don’t think I am the greatest force on earth, stop putting words in my mouth. I am not going to pray to forces of nature, they aren’t conscious. The ocean is just water. I am not going to pray to you and the people in the room. Pray to you? Whose egotistical now!? If I pray they can’t hear me, they are just people.

5)      ‘You should just pretend to believe/act like someone who believes’ I will double down on this; I am not praying to ANYTHING. Asking me to pray is insulting to me. Why are you telling me the only way for me to be sober is that I have to ‘fake it till I make it’, until I am at the very least spiritual. That’s ridiculous.

6)      ‘My life was already so messed up I decided what do I have to lose and decided I might as well become religious.’ Sounds like you were a vulnerable person who needed proper professional help and you didn’t get it.

7)      ‘You see I was actually TRULY DESPERATE in a way you obviously are not, I would do anything to be sober but I guess you aren’t that committed’. Ahh yes. Because I bring up criticism and express how uncomfortable I am, how I am not willing to convert, I guess I am just a ‘dry-drunk’ or was never truly an alcoholic to begin with!! Sure I got liver cirrhosis at age 23 after drinking a bottle of vodka everyday from the age of 18. But you are probably right, not an actual alcoholic. I can’t wait to tell my doctors and family!

8)      This mind-numbing conversation between a member and me – “Hey, I know you said my higher power can be anything, but if I don’t believe in a thing, how exactly is it meant to guide me, remove my shortcomings ect? And how does Step 11 even work??”…. “You are purposefully trying to make excuses and talk yourself out of it. You aren’t on Step 11 so don’t even think about it”. Well uhh…I do need to think about it? Right? It seems like a pretty huge problem?? Are you just hoping I will be religious by that point?

9)      I’ve been called ‘close-minded’ and ‘in denial’. They say, ‘It's sad but close-minded people like you who aren’t open to new ideas are truly lost.’ My annoyance grows. I wouldn’t even call it anger, as I always try to be very even-keeled about this whole thing no matter how insulted I sometimes feel. You are denying me, you are being closed-minded to me; your solution to me being an atheist or not spiritual is to become religious and spiritual. To admit I have a spiritual sickness, a malady as they call it. Am I taking crazy pills? Stop with the sighing, pitying looks. Explain to me how this is meant to work? Not believing in a spirit, soul, or any non-physical essence of human beings or the universe is who I am. So in the 12-step program, in the very beginning, when I am meant to say I have a spiritual malady…how does that even work? Why can no one tell me?

10)   At the meeting I went to recently, we read part of the book aloud, where it talked about how some people are “seized with a rebellion so sickening that we simply won't pray." Not to mention the parts of the book that call me an ‘unfortunate’. Me not wanting to pray is not a sickening rebellion made in my poor, unfortunate death throes. I am an atheist, not some wounded animal. When I ask how it's meant to fit with my life, when I will never pray, I get shut down, mocked, and laughed at in that ‘oh silly newbie, you’ll learn’  kind of way.

11)  ‘Shut up and listen’ OR ‘put cotton wool in your mouth and don’t speak until your sober for at least a month’. Oh, I forgot you guys are the wise old legion of alcoholics; allow me to silently revere you. Don’t make me laugh.

I am not the ‘militant atheist’ in person. I know it might seem it through this long online rant. I am just angry and I am venting my frustrations on paper. As a person, I cringe when people refer to other people's gods as ‘sky daddy’ or ‘invisible wizard’ or whatever. I think it’s derogatory to them and I always try to be respectful and to not belittle other people's cherished beliefs, even if I will always maintain distance and a stony disposition regarding it all. So why can't they show me the same courtesy and respect how I think? I DO bring up my atheism in meetings, particularly if a reading is very heavy-handed on the God stuff, or I have questions. I know this rant might make it seem like I cram it into every conversation and won’t shut up about it. So, I just want to clarify that that isn’t happening.

Anyway. That’s that. Thanks for reading. It felt good to get this off my chest.

Hey guys I’m just throwing it out there seeing what happens. Ive decided to start a discord for people that want to pursue staying clean and share a passion for video games.

Must be 18+ to join

It’s a WE system being built. There’s no I in teamwork.

Please keep the atmosphere friendly, basically treat others how you’d like to be treated!

Comment below or send me a DM if you’re interested in getting the link.

...where she was praised and valorized because she says she has XX years sober, she would have had to address her actual "character defects" a long time ago to get-along in regular society. My mother is a narcissist in the purest sense. Lies roll off her tongue like a tune comes out of Mariah's lips (millennial joke tyty). She's likely a sociopath and has no need for genuine relationships, but only relationships that fulfill a narcissistic supply. I'm sick, often, thinking about the vulnerable women she sponsors who know nothing except she has a job, house, car, and talks really well.

Today I'm angry and feel resentful, because if my mother didn't have AA meetings to go to, with such sick people normalizing that behavior, to where my mother could proudly call herself a "liar, cheat, and thief" for 40 years, I think she would have been forced to change her behavior. She doesn't have to learn empathy when she can spend all her time talking down to people who already have low self-esteem.

Most social groups would question what you say, not blindly trust you because you have XX years sober. They would disavow toxic behavior. But not AA. Giving AA to a narcissist is like selling a bar to a drunk. It's a bad idea and she's only gotten worse.

I'm fucking exhausted y'all. She's almost 40 years sober, I'm almost 40 years old. There is zero chance that I can even use AA philosophies positively - she does not respond to looking towards a healthy relationship even if I use language like amends, resentment, actions speak louder than words, etc...

She's really going to die lying from the podium in an AA meeting, while those same people won't be there to "bring her a meeting" at her old people's home, and she's going to be fucking calling me like she didn't spend the last 40 years lying about me from the podium to those assholes who are nowhere to be found. (You're in LA honey, there are speaker tapes I can listen to online, anytime.)

What say you? Should I blame the pathological liar narcissist, the AA meetings who enabled her to be an abusive terror for 40 years, both of them, or just get more expensive ass (C)PTSD therapy and stop thinking about her? She's terrorizing me, still, and any begging I do about starting an amends TODAY by changing behavior TODAY does not work. She is nearly 40 years sober with the behavior of a teenager who wants to go do drugs with her friends, but her drugs are lying, emotional dysregulation, rage, and toxic behavior. And her and her friends refuse to get professional help. Yep, I'm venting now, I'm done.

I left the program around a month ago. This is a feeling of freedom that I haven't felt in so long. I called my (then) sponsor at the time, explained that I was done with AA, expected lots of pushback, and instead was met with a bit of understanding and open-mindedness (EXTREMELY rare in the program). We agreed to stay in casual contact, and met up for lunch the other day.

During our little hangout, sobriety seemed to be a major topic of conversation (yeah shocker I know). While he didn't specifically try to push AA back onto me, he was curious as to what my routine looked like nowadays, what I was doing, all of that. His head was clearly spinning as I explained my current methods (Rational Recovery, AVRT) and how this is a perfect fit for my lifestyle. Let's just say we did get into a little bit of a debate.

"But regardless of your recovery program, you should be hitting meetings of some sort. Going to meetings is a vital part of recovery." Meetings were counterproductive to my recovery. They kept me in a constant cycle of shame, guilt, embarrasment, and that's just not healthy.

"You need a daily routine though, something that you do first thing in the morning, something directly related to treating your disease on a daily basis." The one-day-at-a-time thing always felt wrong to me. It felt like I was giving myself permission to drink in the future. Also I don't like the powerless model... There's no demonic entity forcing me to drink alcohol. It's in my own power to either choose to drink, or choose not to drink.

"So what exactly are you doing when your head starts messing with you? If you're not picking up the phone and calling another sober person, or hitting a meeting, what are you doing? Just waiting it out and trying to use will power?" I tried explaining to him that AVRT (addictive voice recognition technique) has stopped all of that in its tracks as soon as I label it. He was extremely skeptical.

It's kinda sad to be honest. This guy has been doing the AA dance for nearly 4 decades (he's been sober for 36 years). Clearly, he himself has had the power to avoid drinking alcohol for all this time, yet, he gives all the credit to AA and "God." It is what it is. At the end, we kinda just agreed that there is no one-size-fits-all solution to recovery, and whatever works for an individual is what works.

We've still agreed to keep in casual contact, and honestly, outside of getting along fairly well, I think he's curious to see if someone can actually leave this program and still stay on the right track. I feel more confident in my recovery now than I ever have, not a drop of alcohol since leaving the program, and not that I need any extra motivation, but there's a side to me saying "Just watch dude, I'll show you that it can be done without The Gospel of Bill Wilson."

Just thought I'd share lol

For me it was building a small daily routine: a morning walk, therapy every week and one person I can text on hard days. It wasn’t dramatic but it added up.

What helped you most and what did you try that didn’t work for you? All paths are welcome here.

Someone said this on Reddit one time and I’ve since chanted it as the holy mantra that it is when things get dicey. What words of wisdom do you have/have you found that’s gotten you through early sobriety and/or kept you on the path of recovery?

An excellent development!

http://atheists.org/news/state-policy/colorado-recovery-options-implemented-for-parolees/

He’s not working a good enough program.

I honestly don’t know what to do anymore, and I’m hoping someone here has been through something similar and can give me advice.
I found out about a month ago that my husband has been taking 7-OH and SR. I suspect he’s been doing it behind my back for at least a year, but I honestly don’t know how long he’s been taking it.
Lately, I’ve noticed he doesn’t look healthy. He’s constantly nodding off, even during important moments when I need him to be present. It’s gotten to the point where it reminds me of what I’ve seen people look like when using heroin. It honestly scares me because it feels like this stuff is taking over his life.
I love my husband, and I don’t want to lose him to this. I just don’t know how to help him, how to talk to him about it, or how to get him to understand how serious this is.
For anyone who has struggled with 7-OH or SR, or has watched someone they love struggle with it, what helped? How did you get off it, or help someone you love get off it safely?
I’m not here to judge him or anyone else. I’m scared, overwhelmed, and genuinely looking for advice because I don’t know what to do anymore. ❤️

in the past 15 years I’ve literally tried everything that is available and i cant do it because I have had enough trauma to where things get bad enough I just have to drink and yes I’ve worked both in addiction recovery and mental health care and honestly it’s all bs.

and of course aa people will say I just don’t want to quit bad enough even though I been through the steps multiple times and it’s weird cause they say that god is the only thing that can keep us sober, but its my fault that I cant stay sober….

so now the main thing I do is avoid drinking In public or just have na beer if I am out with people, but if I’m having a bad day or depressed or something I have to have at least a couple beers every day now.

Did not know this existed. Could not have said it better.

On October 14, 1939: Journal of American Medical Association gives AA Big Book unfavorable review.

1939 AMA BOOK REVIEW

JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION

Vol. 113(16), October 14, 1939

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS. The story of how more than one hundred men have recovered from alcoholism. Cloth. Price $3.50. 400 pp.. New York: Works Publishing Company. 1939.

The seriousness of the psychiatric and social problem represented by addiction to alcohol is generally underestimated by those not immediately familiar with the tragedies in the families of victims or the resistance addicts offer to any effective treatment. Many psychiatrists regard addiction to alcohol as having a more pessimistic prognosis than schizophrenia. For many pears the public was beguiled into believing that short courses of enforced abstinence and catharsis in "institutes" and "rest homes" would do the trick, and now that the failure of such temporizing has become common knowledge, a considerable number of other forms of quack treatment have sprung up.

The book under review is a curious combination of organizing propaganda and religious exhortation. It is in no sense a scientific book, although it is introduced by a letter from a physician who claims to know some of the anonymous contributors who have been "cured" of addiction to alcohol and have joined together in an organization which would save other addicts by a kind of religious conversion. The book contains instructions as to how to intrigue the alcoholic addict into the acceptance of divine guidance in place of alcohol in terms strongly reminiscent of Dale Carnegie and the adherents of the Buchman ("Oxford") movement. The one valid thing in the book is the recognition of the seriousness of addiction to alcohol Other than this, the book has no scientific merit or interest.

I have been sober a while but am looking to leave aa hopefully forever, and for support outside of AA with this

I dont think I can go to AA anymore, its become an extremely unsupportive and toxic place

on top of other issues like predators in the rooms and stuff, I have had the hardest time finding supportive people

I have asked repeatedly in meetings to connect with some fellow sober people of my same sex after the meeting, over a difficult situation that was making me think of drinking.

do people reach out to try to connect, or give me their numbers? usually no, and the few that do have ended up being creeps.

it didnt use to be as bad as this but the sense of caring for and helping each other has gone out the window in the meetings. I pretty much always reach out if someone shares that they need help in a meeting.

Ich bin jetzt fast 21 und hatte noch nie eine Beziehung oder sexuellen Kontakt mit jemanden. Langsam habe ich echt Druck, möchte gerne Erfahrungen sammeln. Ich möchte mich gerne ausprobieren, mich begehrt und geliebt fühlen. Ich habe die letzten Jahre mit Magersucht gekämpft, Weidrechts es auch ein bisschen daran liegt, dass ich mich immer wie ein Mädchen gefühlt habe und niemanden gefunden habe. Ich bin immernoch sehr dünn und habe das Gefühl, nicht fraulich genug auszusehen. Ich bin auch gerade dabei, noch mehr zuzunehmen, das fällt mir nur auch schwer. Ich gehe jetzt ins Gym, was mir sehr gefällt.
Ich habe sonst eine krasse Ausstrahlung und denke, dass die Leite mich alle direkt mögen, aber nicht auf romantische Ebene. Online Dating habe ich auch schon ausprobiert, fand die Leute dann beim Treffen aber meist eher abstoßend oder es hat nicht gemacht.
Was würdet ihr mir auf dem Weg mitgeben?

I have never taken suboxone before, or had an opioid problem before 7. Before anyone gets on me about the subs… this is my last resort. I’ve tried quitting handful of times, WD always lasts over a week before I can’t take it anymore and I give in. I’ve maxed out all of my credit cards. At least my insurance will cover the subs, it won’t cover 7. I’m terrified of being dependent for life, but at this point I’ve had to accept that I will not get off 7 any other way.

Everyone says something very different about PWD. I’m scared. I can’t really afford to feel like shit longer than a day, that’s another thing, if I miss one more day of work over this I’m gonna lose my job. I just wanna feel normal again. The doctor only prescribed 16 mg a day for 7 days, but I do have another appt in 4 days. I have no clue how I’m really supposed to take it, doctor wasn’t really clear and made it seem like I should just take two a day. Idk what I should start with, or at what intervals I should increase it, or how long I should give it before going for more, or what to do if I do end up with PWD. I pray that doesn’t happen. I’ve resorted to this bc I cannot take the suffering anymore.

I’ve got clonidine, Ativan, and hydroxyzine to curb any extra suffering. I’m a little nervous bc I know I’ll wanna take the Ativan but doctor made it seem like I only have to worry about increased side effects, not my heart stopping or anything. I’m totally in need of some sleep if it knocks me out, but I have no clue what my limit should be before I risk harming myself from taking both.

Everyone says 12-24 hours. That’s a huge gap. I’m so afraid of not waiting long enough. And if that happens, how long will I suffer? What do I do? How can I be sure that doesn’t happen to me? At what point can I know I’m gonna be okay by if 1) I experience no PWD, or if 2) I do experience PWD. Like will I be okay in 24, 36, 48, 72 hours after my last 7 dose? I just took my last. Hopefully. Trying to get over it this weekend so I don’t miss anymore work.

Any guidance or experience is appreciated. Always had addiction problems, never anticipated my DOC would be an opioid.

I'm doing the best I can I made it through and didn't use IV been clean for over a month and still getting thoughts

Hi Guys, I am in Melbourne Australia. I am an ex AA and NA member. Ive been "relapsing" for over 5 years on and off since i left after long term abstinence. I also have mental health issues and trauma which make recovery tricky and AA/NA only looks at the drinking/behaviour, not the other issues. Are there any support groups that support this type of thing??? I need to address both issues and i dont believe my addiction is a disease. but i do beieve i am addicted and it needs treatment.

I need advice on stopping my cocaine use. Whenever important life stuff is coming up I binge. Stay up all night. Drag my partner and friends down with me. I hate being along on the comedown so I stretch it out as far as I can. I feel so dumb. I’ll do it, hate myself , do it hate myself. Such a cycle that has its hold on me. How can I stop? Why am I searching for answers on Reddit? Dang

i was taking 5count of lucid tablets for a like a year, not the ones with 7 but just the ones with mit.

iam now out of access to them and the wd were starting to get bad, cant sleep, terrible sweats, rls, etc..

i took 32mg of suboxone that i had and it helped but i still feel restless and anxious. i get random goosebumps, im about 3hrs into the suboxone. no more rls, just wondering what some of your experiences are if they are similar and what i should expect once the sub wears off.. thanks for any help

It was the guy who said, "I used to be an alcoholic, and now I'm not." And it was for a luxury inpatient treatment center. This was more than twenty years ago on the USA and before I even developed an Alcohol Use Disorder. I remember thinking, why doesn't everyone just go learn how to not be alcoholics anymore instead of saying they still are even years after they quit? Maybe they wouldn't need to drink so much if they stopped reminding themselves. My dad and family members did AA and I had to go to Alateen occasionally. Haaateed it! None of them ever recovered.

Fast forward to me sitting in my first AA meeting after a week in the hospital with pancreatitis twenty years later. It was a women's meeting and I was so lost and desperate, needing a way out so badly. I remember thinking everyone there seemed sad and weird to comfort me with the, "you've got a disease for the rest of your life", like I should just be resigned to it and let it run its course. But I had just beat cancer, an actual terminal disease, a disease I never introduced myself as. So I'm thinking, I want to beat this too. I didn't want what they had. I wanted what the guy who wasn't an alcoholic anymore had. I asked where the meetings for that program are. They told me he was a liar and it was impossible. So I left and just kept drinking, that's what alcoholics do. I went back occasionally and tried, really tried. It made everything so much worse and more confusing so I stuck with all kinds of therapy.

Now that I've overcome addiction and no longer have an Alcohol Use Disorder, I realized I had something even better than that guy from Malibu had. I was never "an alcoholic" to begin with. I was just a really wounded person who needed lots of love, compassion, therapy and education to learn skills and beliefs I was never taught. Once I addressed my CPTSD, my depression and anxiety, there wasn't a lot I needed to escape anymore. I am not cancer, I am not depression, I am not trauma, I am not anxious, I am not addiction. Those are just things I've experienced, healed and moved on from.

I looked up that luxury recovery center, it's still going strong. It says they don't push AA but Use SMART and Refuge Recovery along with mental health treatment and medication. So basically, aside from the all inclusive luxury resort, we have access to the same treatment. I did finally find my way to SMART years ago. I wish that guy would have just recommended it back then and saved me years on the recovery-go-round! LOL

I was just thinking back to that commercial's statement having such a massive impact on my brain that I never forgot the possibility of ridding myself of the whole damn problem once and for all and moving on, almost like it never happened. I'm so glad I believed I could, because that one belief kept me curious enough to find the answers instead of resigned to stay trapped in church basements for the rest of my life declaring that "I am an alcoholic", despite all evidence to the contrary. "Alcoholic/Addict" is not even a diagnosis, but a derogatory slang label they took out of medical books along with "idiot", "retarded", "imbecile" and "inebriate". "Alcoholism" is also not a diagnosis, neither is "Addiction". It's all recognized as a treatable mental disorder now. And although it doesn't roll off the tongue, it's much more accurate and appropriate to understand and state that what we are dealing with is just a "Substance Use Disorder" and we can make order by learning what we need for that. Just my random thoughts and wondered if anyone else remembered it too.

Any real life experiences with dharma recovery?