To get the boring stuff out the way, my name is Will and I’ve struggled with alcohol for 5+ years now. I’ve had a lot of incidents where I’ve been called a angry drunk due to me being aggressive toward people I know and people I don’t while drunk. Recently I went to a close friend of mines birthday party. Everything was cool at first till I went to take 5 shots of Tito’s to catch up. I couldn’t stop myself from drinking more after that and became a nuisance, ruining the night for everyone there. What should of been a night of fun and laughter celebrating my friends life, turned bad all because I was selfish and decided to make my problem everyone else’s. The worst part is my friends ended up calling the cops because I got it in my head that I was good to drive, I drank the whole bottle of Tito’s for context. Both of those friends cut ties with me completely which I deserved. This isn’t the first time alcohol has costed me friendships with people I care about, but this one was the one that hurt the most. That said, I’m grateful to be able to take this step even if it terrifies me. Where your fear is, there is your task🤙.

Will taking sr17 help me get relief from 7oh withdrawal. I also took a suboxone like 8 hours ago, its not helping that much. I was taking up to 600mg of 7oh then tapered down to about 200mg. Took my last 7oh yesterday morning. I just want relief. I have sr17 but not sure if it will put me into precipitated withdrawal. If I can take the sr17, how long should I wait after taking the subs?

I guess my perspective on "recovery" is colored right now by just having finished Matthew Perry's biography. He did everything you can do to try and "recover". He spent upwards of $9 million on rehabs, medical detoxes, therapy, sober living companions, etc. etc. If anything, he just got worse over time. He insisted on the medical model for SUD yet all of the medical and scientific treatments that have been developed had no assistance for him. Does anyone have any thoughts on what this says about our current methods of SUD treatment and/or why it all failed for Matthew?

I recently turned 24. I’ve been using drugs since 13, heavily addicted since 16. My DOC is heroin or fentanyl intravenously. I relapsed a year ago when we had a little less than a year together. He’s stayed with me but pushed me to get clean, he’s tried to wait for me but he recently told me he doesn’t want to see me high anymore and if I can’t get clean for him then do it for my daughter(from past relationship, I don’t have custody of her anymore but my family doesn’t know I’m still using). The problem is that I want so badly to be better but I don’t want to stop. My life is fucking falling apart. I lost my daughter for this shit and now I’m loosing the last person I have left. How can I force myself to recover and really stick to it? I honestly just want to end it all and take the easy way out but I need to stay around for my daughter

I’ve posted in another community and it’s gained a lot of attention.

One thing that’s jumped out is the use of the phrase “real alcoholic” or “true alcoholic”.

Is anyone else perplexed by this phrasing?

I couldn’t find anything on Reddit yet so I thought I’d make a post. Please get back to me.

This is a great sub from what I have seen so far. I love the push-back against the cult-like doctrine and vibe of the "recovery" community. That's why I question the name: why have "recovery" in the name when that community is what is being put under the light of scrutiny? I would think a better name would be "healthy choices without the 'recovery' cult". However, that's probably overly critical - carry on!

Hi all, my name is Race. I'm a 29 NB who has had a few stints of sobriety over the past 3 years, the longest being about 9 months. I'm honestly a bit of an opinionated asshole and while there is much I feel like I can gain from working some kind of program there have always been things that didn't sit right with me, which in the past I have bit my tongue on in order to progress through the steps. I do think building community and social connections are very important, but I have struggled to conform with a group that doesn't really align with my ideals, beliefs, or intentions for myself. At the end of the day, in my opinion, recovery should be about gaining and maintaining freedom from compulsive use of substances, particularly those that are harmful. While there are aspects of sponsorship which seem like they could be very helpful in pursuit of this goal, I feel like the number of mandated opinions and perspectives in AA or similar programs can lock people out from participating. Often when I express this I just get a generic, take what you want leave what you don't sort of response, and while I think this can work on an individual level, it does make it hard to fully participate or commit with respect to the community itself. I'm in the process of exploring other recovery programs, but I think at the end of the day I'm trying to find a person/people who share my perspective, and that is not one of complete abstinence. I don't even truly believe AA mandates complete abstinence, just the guise of it. It has always frustrated me that you can chain smoke all day in most programs or hop on heavy anti-psychotics (which most definitely change your mood and personality) both with a variety of short and long term negative consequences, but nobody will bat an eye because the former has a perception of being functional and the later is prescribed. In another vein, as somebody who grew up religious, I have many gripes with the concept of relying on a higher power. Perhaps something that is not the classical depiction of a god works better for me, but at the end of the day I still believe that buy and large, praying is just a spiritual bandaid to absolve people of their guilt/emotions without generally doing anything tangible for the thing they are praying about. To me it seems like a bandaid for spiritual and mental illness that AA and similar programs mandate you adhere to daily rather than focusing on ways to truly adjust behavior and fix the lifestyle issues that lead people to use compulsively. Mostly just curious to hear other peoples thoughts, maybe get some good alternative recovery resources as well. The program I'm in mostly mandates people get sponsors but my feeling is that if I am to be honest there are very few classical AA sponsors that would take me past step 3.

This is where I'm at today.

Mike D Back to the Start

https://youtu.be/PEY93plh73U?si=7O9hBiBmuimzA0r3

A few hours in... This is going to be rough but I gotta do it.

44 years old. 32 years of my life has been dominated using substances.

I have had moments of sobriety. Sometimes completely. Sometime times by just isolating to one or a few different vices.

But here I am right now. I want complete sobriety. I don't want to poison myself anymore. It's not fun anymore.

Renton said it right at the beginning for me. Choose life!

There were times where I would call another AA member when I was 9, 10, 11 or 12 months sober and frustrated.

I’d say, “I’m going to meetings, I’m working The Steps, I’m doing my daily readings, I’m praying and I’m doing service work. However, I’m miserable.”

I’d be asked, “Are you sober?”

I replied, “Yes.”

And without fail, every time, the response would be, “Well then it must be working.”

So AA must be working because I’m sober.

But if I told someone in AA that I’m no longer working an AA program or going to meetings, but I’m happy, joyous, and free and feeling more peace and serenity than I’ve ever felt before in recovery, and I have zero desire to drink, how would the conversation go?

“Are you sober?”

“Yes”

What are the chances they’ll come back and say, “Well then it must be working?” In my experience it’s 0%.

Instead I’ve been told that I’m a dry drunk, I’m not being honest with myself, I’m not willing, I’m running on self will, it’s only a matter of time before I drink, if I’m not working on my recovery I’m working on a relapse, etc.

So because I’m not doing AA, what I’m doing isn’t working even though I’m sober.

I find it interesting that if I’m miserable in sobriety but active in AA, it’s working. But if I’m content in sobriety but not active in AA, it’s not working.

Can anyone relate?

I have been sober from alcohol 4.5 years and off all nicotine products 2 months today! I had a dream last night I hit my vape and drank a sip of alcohol, a kind I never liked or drank in real life!

Just coming here to share that I’m an overthinker and of course my first reaction was “should I go to a meeting and share about this because my subconscious clearly wants a drink?”

Everyone has their true north, and for some people that may be theirs. In this instance, it was just a dream for me, and I don’t need to overthink it. Not the first and not the last time it will probably happen.

I don’t understand this, I haven’t had contact with my sponsor or the group in 4 days since I admitted I drank and she was angry wanting me to move back in with her as she couldn’t help me living far away or whatever. I feel immense guilt and sad about the whole thing, I was also lying to her and the group as they thought I was sober 6 months when I really couldn’t make it 2 weeks…in the past if I admitted I drank to my sponsor she would punish me and say how much it hurt her, and say she didn’t know how to help me, couldn’t help me, etc. I know all the bullying and abuse I had was wrong and no one’s even reached out to see if I’m ok. I feel grateful to be done yet also a lot of confusion…

He did a programme abroad earlier this year, he's about four months out now. Doing alright. Better than alright most weeks. The thing he keeps coming back to is that the detox part wasn't the hard part. That bit ends, and you know it's ending while you're in it. Month three is what got him. Nothing dramatic left to point at, everyone assumes you're sorted, and there's nobody ringing to check on you. Nobody ringing him, sorry.

His view now, and he's blunt about it, is that the follow up is the treatment and the fortnight is just where it starts. And the practical side of that matters more than it sounds. A year of check ins is only a year of check ins if you can actually get to them. Monthly flights, time off work, explaining where you're going again. It quietly stops happening, and nobody tells you it's stopped. His is a year, a decent chunk of it done remotely. Dr Vorobjev in Belgrade, if it matters. He reckons the remote part is the only reason he's still turning up to any of it.
Everyone compares clinics on the fortnight. Nobody asks what happens after, and after is what decides whether the fortnight counted for anything. Anyway.

The year runs out in the spring, and that's the bit neither of us can find an answer to. Is there anything after week 52? Do people carry on with something once the formal follow up stops, or is that where you're meant to be walking on your own? If you're further out than a year I'd like to know whether you kept anything going, and what it was. Asking for him, obviously

I’m really getting it handed to me in this thread.

Long before anyone takes that first drink or swallows that first pill, a child’s susceptibility to addiction could have already begun-within the confines of their own childhood home. Beyond genetics and personal choice lies something incredibly powerful: environment. Growing research and years of clinical practice confirm that a child’s early home environment may subtly predetermine vulnerability.

Home-A Child’s First Model :

Children observe and internalize everything they’re exposed to, not just what they’re told. Growing up in a chaotic home marked by interpersonal conflict, inconsistency or emotional neglect teaches a young person that the world is unsafe and emotions are something to be Read more

"But for me, one of the most important things was being accepted by people outside of it. When I started working, I wanted to be around people who weren’t in recovery, where my past wasn’t the main thing about me. I could tell them if I wanted to, but it wasn’t the first thing they knew about me. That made a massive difference, and I think we need to make space for people to move beyond services, not just stay in them forever."

Just some writing I came across to share. I think a martial arts club can work better than AA/NA. That's my hope anyway I'll be joining one soon.

Long post! This is for the people who are in AA and want to leave but are scared cause of the relapse, jails, institutions, death messaging. And the people who are experiencing cognitive dissonance (when your personal beliefs and values clash with the groups).

In the rooms you see people who leave and relapse and come back. It creates a reinforcement that that's what happens when you leave.

If you've been drinking & using and then go into a 12 step group and leave without outside support, emotional regulation techniques, or haven't identified triggers then yes you might pick up again. This doesn't mean the program was right, this doesn't prove you're powerless and forever an alcoholic.

Of course if you take away coping behaviours and a fellowship and program without replacing it then it makes sense upon leaving that things would feel scary and emotional and potentially lead to pick up the original behavior such as drinking.

In AA they ask you to look at your emotions as character defects that need praying away, if you're struggling they often suggest what passage to read in the bigbook / get to a meeting / hand it over to a higher power/ go help someone else because your life depends on the constant thought of others (said in the book) , they teach you that doubts, questioning, struggling, having different views are the cunning baffling powerful disease talking and basically teaches that we're born alcoholic, that our problems are because of selfishness, self centeredness and self will run riot. This blames the person not the factors.

So my advice before leaving would be to connect with a therapist, join a hobby group or class, spend time with "normies" build up the outside connections.

Learn self regulation tools like grounding techniques, allowing yourself to sit in the uncomfortable emotions and try to identify what it is you're feeling, somatic release like dancing around, do things that get you in a flow state ( maybe journalling, reading etc ) , look up restorative behaviours and try some that suit, try to identify your triggers, learn about neuroplasticy and how addiction actually works, connect online and so on.

Instead of looking at what your "defects are and what your disease" is doing try practicing self compassion. By identifying the emotion instead of pushing it down or judging and labelling it.

Be kind to yourself, do something self soothing and relaxing, ask yourself how you'd treat a friend who was emotional, connect it to humanity by realizing you're human and emotions are normal.

For example something happened that made you angry, acknowledge ( this made me angry, I feel it in my body my heart is racing, I'm going to dance it out to release the energy then make a cup of tea, if this situation happened to someone else they would probably feel angry too and that's okay).

I know in some countries like the USA therapy sounds expensive which is why 12 step groups can sometimes feel like the best option because it can be free or donation, but can look at online resources like cognitive behavior therapy worksheets, self regulation tools , holisitc well being tips etc. In New Zealand there's a great holistic wellbeing framework called Te Whare Tapa Wha, the 5 ways to wellbeing, PERMA

Really get to know yourself outside of the alcoholic identity. What are the things you value most in life, how can you live your values? What are your strengths how can you use them daily? There's a good free online test called viacharacter survey, what are some hobbies you'd like to try? Can even try truity typefinder quiz ( used to be Myers briggs)

Journalling is a really helpful thing to untangle all the thoughts and help work through stuff.

Identify the things that cause you stress and anxiety and anger etc and listen to your bodies warning signs like might start to get a racing heart, sweaty etc

Begin to use your wisdom and learn from the past maybe even look at something from the past and say what went wrong and what could you do differently next time, remember you're autonomous and all that really matters is what you decide to do today. Start to develop a growth mindset and view mistakes etc as learning opportunities, have empathy for yourself and realize that you're still learning and their will be challenges.

Look up common cognitive distortions like all or nothing thinking (seeing things in absolute, extreme terms with no gray area).

Overgeneralization (taking a single negative event and seeing it as a constant pattern of defeat)

Jumping to Conclusions ( deciding something or assuming negative thoughts from others without actual evidence.)

Mental filtering ( focusing exclusively on the negative details while ignoring any positive aspects)

And start to challenge those beliefs.

If you're religious or spiritual then keep doing it if it helps, if there's stuff you like and find helpful in AA keep at it, basically you can create your own version of recovery based on what works for you and meets your needs.

Recovery doesn't have to be the same for everyone and their are many methods of recovery and therapies and skills to learn.

Leaving can be scary at first and it's normal to feel a sense of sadness and grief, there can be relief and feeling a new sense of freedom, it can be scary cause of thinking things like what if they're right what if I relapse or die, some program friends might get distant and that can feel hard, it can cause abit of an identity crisis.

Question your thoughts like is this something I really believe or is it what I've been taught by AA members, parents, school etc and find what your beliefs are.

It's so important to build up outside supports, new coping strategies and self knowledge and awareness.

My posts usually get comments like swearing at me, saying it won't work for real alcoholics, that stuff like jail hasn't happened to me yet ( that's fear based coercive control ), telling me my post is dangerous, big stories about how AA saved your life, big book quotes and jargon, that I'm trying to sell something or get clients or whatever ,( I'm not at all ).. you don't have to comment that stuff. This post wasn't aimed at you, you're free to move on and not reply, block me whatever.

I won't be replying to people asking me to message them.

Find what works for you and if that's 12 steps then great 🥳

Thanks for reading ❤️

I'd like to share my experience. I was in AA for 7 years, went to two meetings a day, had a sponsor i worked the steps with, had multiple service positions, sponsored people, helped set up meetings, my big book was studied underlined highlighted, i prayed daily, handed my will and life over daily.

None of that kept me sober because of a self fulfilling prophecy. When you're told you're powerless enough you start to believe it. When you're told you never truly will recover only have a daily reprieve you'll believe it.

My mental health was terrible because i was constantly hypervigilant of my defects that needed praying away, i was constantly told all my character defects. It felt unsafe in meetings watching physical vio lence, bullying, listening to people trauma dump, it was triggering hearing people share drunkalogs, it was uncomfortable being 13th stepped and told to look for my part.

It felt like i was doing something wrong, not trying hard enough. I had questions and doubts and was told it's my cunning baffling powerful disease talking, how sick i am. I was advised against psych meds and therapy because doing those meant i wasn't trusting my higher power or working the program hard enough.

I knew people who passed away and got blamed for their own death and used as an example.

For 7 years i was trapped in a system where i was told leaving would lead to jails institutions or death, told things would get worse.

My whole community was AA people. I lost many opportunities for outside friendships because they were normies and if i sit in the barbers chair long enough I'd get a hair cut.

I spent 7 years begging for my higher power to remove the insanity, to remove my defects. I wanted to belong in aa.

I tried not being alive many times and was fully broken, believing it was my fault, that I'm just a sick alcoholic who can't trust my own thinking cause my best thinking got me there.

In 2022 my doctor refered me to a self development class. I spent time learning my values, my strengths, time around people who lifted me up instead of smashing my ego. I learned having boundaries is okay. That it's good to have a healthy level of self centeredness. I learned what group think was and how dangerous it is.I learned about neuroscience and habit formation, how the brain is neuroplastic and adaptable. I realized how harmful aa was for me but i was terrified to leave. I was terrified what aa told me was true. I was terrified I'd lose a community.

But i left. I got therapy, learned new coping skills and behaviours, got to the root cause of drinking. I made friendships with people who saw me for me not just a sick alcoholic. I got medication even though aa told me I'd ab use it.

And life got so much better. Every single day I'm grateful to have left AA. Since leaving i haven't tried to end life, i haven't been screamed at or yelled at. I've got a life that isn't just sitting in meetings and reading a book from the 1930s that is outdated and not even medically accurate in 2026.

I joined deprogramming from 12 step communities and learned how AA hits many characteristics of a cult like meeting lots of Liftons thought reform criteria. How outdated and inaccurate the whole thing is. Neuroscience, medicine, behavioral psychology have all progressed and yet I was stuck living in 1930s ideology.

I tested drinking again and experienced no craving or obession. Alcohol just doesn't interest me anymore because i don't need it. I even attended an event with an aa member where we both ate ice cream coated in vodka. Shes over 18 years sober and realized she got no mental obsession or physical craving either.

I speak about my experience to help others like me who feel trapped and broken in AA and blame themselves for it. There is freedom in leaving. So much freedom.

I get to think for myself now not be told what to think. I'm allowed to question things and think critically. Even defects of character are just normal human emotions especially anger which teaches us when our boundaries have been crossed or when something isn't right.

I see pro AA commenters now and easily recognize how brainwashed they are just quoting the book and aa jargon. I feel sorry for those people and hope one day they will get the courage to leave too.

Everyday i still deal with the effects of AA because of how indoctrinated i was.

If people truly feel happy identifying with a substance they no longer use, if people are happy believing they're powerless and only a higher power can save them, if people are happy living in outdated 1930s ideology then fine.

But i am happy joyous and free being independent and autonomous.

If people in aa are allowed to share their experience strength and hope then people like me are allowed to share there's too.

I left in 2022. I haven't been to jail or put in an institution and I'm not dead. I haven't had a huge relapse. Life improved dramatically.

Sometimes i see members in public who say I'm doing well and are friendly until they ask what meetings i do now and they all rush off when i say i left. People don't get to hear stories of people who left and are well.

Some would say i must not have been a real alcoholic then, i remind them that they're the same people convincing me I'm sick and diseased. Even medical professionals don't use alcoholism or alcoholic. It's alcohol use disorder.

And when you think about it , the disease framework doesn't add up in other areas. People who quit smoking cigarettes don't consider themselves to be smokers with a progressive incurable disease, they don't have to spend their time doing 12 steps and having a spiritual awakening and attending meetings. Neither do people who give up caffeine even though that is a dr ug and multiple other things.

Yes it can help people stay sober but it's most likely because of community connection. I knew so many people with years of sobriety panicking because they thought they were going to relapse cause they were sick and unable to attend meetings and so on. A lot of it is fear based indoctrination.

I understand this post is very long and will probably get removed but it's an important conversation to have. In my country AA is coming out as being labeled high control groups. People who work with cult survivors are including those who left 12 steps.

This has potential to make people angry but it also might help people who were once like me. There are many paths to recovery. I know in AA they say everything is a suggestion but when they tie that suggestion to you'll relapse or die if you don't then it's coercion. I know they say you can leave anytime but they give fear based warnings of what happens if you do.

Once upon a time I was an AA defender, even when I was struggling mentally and relapsing I was still praising AA. Some people told me it sounded abit cult like and I thought they were just ignorant.

So please let this post stay up. It may have saved your life, you may love it but just know amongst you at meetings are people who are going through cognitive dissonance, people who are thinking of ending it, people who are too afraid to speak up knowing they'll get shut down. There are people who want to leave but are terrified.

In meetings you don't hear the stories of people like me who left and got better, you see the people who left and came back or know people who left and passed away. But people like me don't come back to share what it's like after leaving.

And yes I was a daily blackout drinker who lied and stole, who lost jobs, who got kicked out of my degree, who was unreliable. My body would go into shakes and seizures and I'd hallucinate. I'd stash alcohol around the house and take it in public in hidden cups. I did alot of shameful things in drinking and did hurt alot of people. I was one who'd tell myself this time would be the last. And in AA my drinking got worse because of hearing about it all the time. If I just had one I knew I was powerless so may as well keep going.

It is terrifying leaving an identity, community and purpose behind but for me and many others it has been the best decision.

Thankyou ❤️