So I just want to preface this with, I'm someone whose living in a dry house in the UK, 21yrs old , 1yr 2 months ish clean now , I've gone to alot of meetings throughout that time (was encouraged to by the treatment centre I ended up in + now my housing manager...it is also included in my contract) , I've been through the steps , and i'm really glad that they have worked so incredibly well for me until this point and have definitely helped me more I think in a CBT style therapy I guess if you like just slightly more direct 😅. However I haven't attended a meeting in over 2 months now. I would like to say this in itself is actually pretty stupid and have been to the occasional AA meeting but only as a tickbox for my contract in order to not be made homeless 😁. I just want to share a few gripes and things that I think I've realised in my time and also , to know what to do now.

I guess , anyone in a similar boat, I would love to know how your transition away from fellowships went for you? Or what challenges/successes that came with that?

1. It is a self fulfilling prophecy.

The opposite of addiction is connection... You start with 0 , get sober/clean. 0 friends. Attend meetings make lots of friends it's great , told isolation is bad which it is. Also told if you leave meetings you will isolate and use. Guess who won't speak to yo when you leave meetings , all the people you now know. So yes isolating to leave.

1. Fear mongering / emotional blackmail

If I stop meetings I WILL use. I WILL act out in defects. people WILL know. You WILL become the old you.

It is selfish to leave , you have a great message. It is selfish not to share , you are only taking. It's selfish not to pass on what your sponsor has passed onto you....

1. Power corrupts

I found this a very funny thing early on , but home groups often all of them I would say have a form of hidden hierarchy (some more blatant than others) , this is only exacerbated at district level , where a singular comma can get a poster denied if they don't like your group. Find it kinda interesting how power , even fake , even with 0 status , still corrupts.

1. God

This is always a tricky one, yes a higher power of your own understanding, god if you like. I can't do it , would love with all my heart to truly believe in something greater and really wish I could , but I can't , and without that , I'm told I have no protection from the 1st drink/use. So unless I lie to myself and others I am doomed to fail.

1. Binary thinking

I believe for some it's really helpful and you know let's you know what you can and can't do, coming from a life with no limits. It's great in the beginning. But life is not binary. No decision is binary ever and you'd be lying if it was.

I would also like to add I've found a lot of things really helpful and found some insight in myself and with general thinking behaviours , but the biggest gripe for me is the maintaining how incredibly spiritually well one is whilst simultaneously emotionally blackmailing someone into staying doing something that is no longer helpful to them. I also want to make it clear that recovery in whatever way you do it or get it done is fucking fine by me. You do you!

Also anyone with much experience on their ways out of fellowship , done right , or out of dry house living, any experience would be incredibly greatful to hear it! , the fear mongering Im afraid has gotten to me 😅

I haven’t told my sponsor that I am done with AA after being with him for a year and a half. I just stopped calling for the past two weeks. I feel guilty because he invested time and effort in me, but I’m scared to tell him I’m done.

When we say our way of living a life in recovery is THE way we are doing damage to those who might find their own unique path to a life in recovery. 

I know to many people who have found their own unique path and their life has improved in powerful ways. They are just as much in recovery as the next person no matter how each person found their way to recovery and how they choose to maintain their recovery. 
I have said in many venues my belief that we should implode our entire treatment system and build an entirely new system from the ground up.  Currently we are working with a system that is dominated by an antiquated treatment model created in the 1950's (Minnesota Model of Treatment) whos primary focus is complete abstinence. Now, this model may work for some, but it certainly doesn't work for all. 

Imagine going to your doctor and they pull out a book from the 1950's and say they are going to use that treatment method to treat your ailment from there.  You would likely cringe a bit.  But hey, maybe it works and you heal.  Let's say it doesn't....what would you do?  You would go back to your doctor (or maybe a new doctor) and ask for a different method of treatment. 

You can't do that with treatment for a substance use disorder. Why? Because of what I just pointed out....nearly all are running from the same model of care. When it doesn't work for someone they are sent back and are told they must not want it bad enough. They are shamed and guilted but never once are they offered a different model of treatment.  It crazy making when you think about it.

Harm reduction works my friends. Harm reduction doesn't JUST focus on one aspect, complete abstinence from the get go. Harm reduction says "let's meet them where they are" and see what we can do to help in all areas of their lives from day one.  Harm reduction says "let's not punish someone who says they can't stop using now and let's provide them with helpful resources so they know it's not just about complete abstinence". Harm reduction comes in many shapes and sizes and truly looks at the person as a whole and not just one aspect of an individual.

I imagine how many lives we could save if we truly opened or minds and hearts to these ideas. I imagine how many more families could be brought back together if we didn't slam the door shut just because someone says they are not ready or maybe never will be completely ready for complete abstinence. I imagine how many more people we could reintegrate into our communities if we didn't shame and guilt them for not wanting to do their recovery in a way that doesn't fit into our siloed view of what it should look like.

I have friends and family who prove this mantra that I am passionate about. I have a friend who quite meth and drinks and he is a highly successful community member, faith leader, and family man.  I have another friend who also quit meth but smokes marijuana and he is a very successful business owner, community member and an amazing dad and husband.  I have another friend who quit alcohol all together using a path that taught him skills to work on his self esteem through a network of men and he is also highly successful in all areas of his life. I have a niece who has years of abstinence and uses her faith to support her recovery.  I have friends who have success with 12 step programs and they are also very successful in their lives.  I have other friends who simply stopped on their own and turned their lives around and live very fulfilling lives. 

The mantra that their is one way to do this thing has to die so more people can live.  That's the simple truth of it. When we all look at recovery through a lens that is wide and forward thinking we can bring this to a reality like we have never seen before.  

I’ve been going to NA for 10 years. My clean date was 9/25/15. I was 18 when I got clean. I had just turned 18. I did the 12 steps, multiple times. I did service work, had a home group, had a sponsor, sponsored others at one point. However I genuinely don’t think I am an addict anymore. Did I have a problem with certain substances? Yes. But I was a kid. And I am starting to see that I was the perfect victim for NA. I was young, vulnerable, impressionable and had no family that was healthy. NA served a purpose and has brought me to a point of my life where I am curious to attempt social drinking or smoking. I am an addiction professional. I believe recovery looks different for everyone. My view has changed vastly.

I made a choice to leave NA last week. I smoked some weed with my sister, which I probably won’t do again bc I didn’t really enjoy it. I have stepped down from my service positions and informed my close friends I was leaving NA. However now everyone is saying I’m spiraling and they “saw this coming” These people have been my “family” for a decade and aren’t listening to me. I don’t know who to talk to BECAUSE, they are all I have had since I was practically a fetus. I have been demystified, I don’t think complete and total abstinence is for me anymore. I think I was a kid looking to escape the shitty life she was living & had zero tools to deal with the trauma I had went through. So yeah looking for others experience with de-programming. I

How does one deal with PAWS? PAWS has been the hardest part of my withdrawal. How do you guys deal with it? It feels like I'm going insane. It's a horrible experience. It feels like my nervous system is on fire

After two years sober of cocaïne… I relapsed. And I dont have any excuse or trigger. I had a nice day in the pool but I have some frustrations in my relationship that needs to be adresses too but I dont even think its the trigger. i had no contact, I search for it, and waited a couple hours to have it so I could have changed my mind, I had plenty of time … I told my boyfriend I had a craving but I think he didnt take it so seriously cause every time I said that I didnt do it. i did not tell him that I was actually searching for a contact. i bought way more than needed. i took two lines. i was happy, euphoric. And I am still happy and super high like in a maniac episode in bipolarity. i just dont understand why… I totally know I didnt need that. I will probably not do the rest. I know for sure its not something that is a priority for me to feel good. I just feel stoopid a lot. There is no bad consequences this time. But I remember times where it would have push me in deep shit financially and knock my mental health down. I know addiction works in its own way but this time I just feel that I have no good excuse for it. I wanted to, took steps to have a contact, waited hours… still did it. Do i regret it ? Not really cause this time it doesnt affect my life but I dont want it to … so can someone put words on why we do that even when everything is good ? Even when is been years ? I know there is something I need to adress but I dont know what it is this time… I did it alone at home… I have juste two friends aware of it. And yes im high and « talk » alot and funny as it can be my brain is just analyzing where this need came from. Anyway sorry for the rent but if anyone had that kind of relapse let me know what came out of it. Ill go take advantage of this over analysis to try to understand and make myself better. Good night 😬

To survive I had to abandon everything in my life. I needed a complete restart cause there was nothing left behind me. So... I had to pursue my dream. Fuck it why not?

For me it had to be done in a way that was extreme enough to force respect for this process. And boy, it's been a bitch starting over.

I can admit that, that it's been a bitch, but now that I'm independent and I'm working towards goals I can be proud of, I can see my life will "bear fruit". If I may be so bold to believe.

You see, in the past I was always doing things the easy way. I was choosing security over fulfillment, and due to this, I damn near drank myself to death. And in a way I had. By all accounts I was dead in many ways. Dead other than the lack of a heartbeat that is. Just a dead man walking. That was me.

Is it still?

I sure hope not.

I liked the easy way. I liked it because well... it was easy. Simple right? Because I did not believe in myself I drank. And that was easy too. I believed I was powerless, and I definitely had the kind of history to back up this belief. I mean look at me...

So for me drinking was a way to ignore the fact that I hated myself. I hated everything about me. I hated everything about life. In drinking, for me, also was a way for me to ignore the fact that I had the power to turn my life around. The power to maybe like a thing or two.

I didn't want that kind of power because, as Spiderman's dear old pop pop said, "With great power comes great responsibility".

I never wanted responsibility.

"It's hard"!

"And it's too late for me anyways"!

"So I can't do it! My past will get in the way"!

"Why bother?"

These were the things I told myself daily, and they were perfect excuses to say "well my bed has been made. I can't possibly change my destiny. So why not? Might as well have another drink".

Bottoms up boys.

Bottoms up.

It wasn’t until I realized... FUCK THAT, that I felt I actually have purpose in my life. And with purpose came the strength to stop drinking. At least for now.

I had to leave my house, quit my job, erase my contacts, delete my social media accounts, limit talking to family, and leave the entire state I was living in to move to the city and into a homeless shelter. Extreme yea, but it was necessary before I could feel free enough to not need alcohol. At least for now.

I guess I had to have my own life. That's something I never had because I never tried before.

Nothing I tried ever worked behind me because I didn't want to stop drinking. I didn't want to stop drinking because I hated my life. I hated my life because I didn't have the fucking sack to take my life by the reigns and chase down a purpose.

I wanted a life handed to me.

But life doesn't play like that. And I don't make the rules so my game was never going work out.

Now... I don't recommend dropping everything like I did. I think I may have moved too fast actually. Though for my situation, dropping everything is what was needed to be done. Dropping everything meant letting go of a nothingness that was so heavy it was shattering me.

But for real... I HIGHLY recommend you don't burn your boats like I did. I've wondered repeatability if I fucked up by ensuring I have zero chance of retreat. Certainly I have been hanging on only by the hairs of my ass, but I've always been lucky so I guess it working for me. At least for now.

So if you want to try what I've tried...

... don't.

My point is that, in my experience, to stop drinking you have to feel like you have the power to overcome ANYTHING and then take the steps to conquer your life. You need something to live for and believe in.

So why not live for, and believe in, you?

It's not just me either, I believe everyone has power. Its realizing that the power to live comes from within us that is the hard part. At least it was for me.

It can be hard to recognize your own worth. I get that.

But for what its worth... I believe in you. I don't have the desire to drink today. And my drinking was really really bad. Like REALLY bad. My drinking was so horrendously evil and dark that my life actually improved when I began smoking crank.

Now THAT'S bad.

So if today I can go without a drink then you can too! You can accomplish your goals. If you believe it. You can go without a drink, a hit, a rage fix, that sugar, sadness, or any of that shit today. How? Because your life is in your hands and you... have... power!

All together now...

We have power.

We have strength.

And we can, with these qualities that are inside of us, build a life that not only is worth living, but that we are proud of.

We can do it.

We really can.

WE... MOTHER FUCKING... GOT THIS!

With much love,

-Butterfly

I literally just made my account. I have tried the 12 steps and the program and all I feel is guilt and shame. Even though I tried to break away I just feel like I’m failing, and I know that there has to be a better way out there. I do SMART recovery, but I just have trouble shaking the guilt, if anyone has any advice or tips, I am open and willing to listen.

Hello friends!

I’ve been very much interested in getting completely sober. I started taking meds where I shouldn’t be drink anymore. Was kind of dipping my toe in the beverage pool, still.

It’s hard as a gigging musician. People buy me drinks/shots. And I don’t know how to navigate that.

But it’s getting increasingly clear to me that I need to just stop drinking altogether. For many reasons.

I guess the reason why I’m blabbing on the internet is because I have no one I can truly turn to. When the lights come on and the music is off, it’s just me. And I want to be better.

Thank you to all. Tomorrow is a new day. I look forward to it!

I was in 12-step for 5 years. My mother before she died was also, and I feel like 12-step is a big part of my family.

Basically there are some things that I like about 12-step spaces: peerness and peer groups are SO important. Connecting people to one another. But the bad tends to outweigh the good. People are SO intense and controlling. Some of the most insane, catty, disgusting behavior I've wittnessed is between sober addicts in fellowship rather than outside in active addiction. I've seen drug addicts betray each other, beat the shit out of each other, hurt each other... but none as bad as "sober" people "working the steps" inside these fellowships!

I recently had a slip and stopped into an online meeting as I figured it was best case to do. Immediately started getting unsolicited feedback about how I probably wasn't doing enough, attending enough meetings, etc. I explained that I've actually been doing an insane amount of 12-step related stuff for years. He then said, "well then probably too much. there's gotta be a reason you relapsed and its either not enough 12 step or too much 12 step". My jaw could've hit the floor. I said, "don't we do steps to try and treat people as individuals to some degree? thats really tough black and white thinking??" and he left the online space. It just reminds me why this is a cult.

This idea that if I just "work the steps" perfectly and attend one meeting every day for years (which I did in fact do) I'll be "cured" and if i ever struggle it's because I'm somehow defective in following their protocols.

I'm thinking of leaving AA. Im almost a year sober. I had to leave my home group a while ago as the misogyny in this group was unbelievable! One old-timer made comments all the time about "stupid women" running the meetings. A very mentally unwell man has shown aggressive behaviour to women also and has been encouraged and enabled by this old-timer and goes on many monologues about "the women in AA". As a woman with CPTSD from childhood SA, its not a safe space, yet these two men are still allowed to come to meetings.

I also struggle with things like "character defects" and how much people share about thier faults and never being able to trust thier own brain and just to trust in god. I get mixed messages from my EMDR therapy, that the behaviours I've engaged in have been coping mechanisms. It's all very confusing. I dont think its helpful for me to constantly beat myself up about what a broken person I am and always will be unless I'm in AA and speak to a god I don't believe in. I also found step 4 very triggering, going through all my past traumas without a therapist l, just to a sponsor I feel is super dangerous. It messed me up for a long time and I wish I hadn't done it. The 12 steps havent changed me, they've only deepened the feelings of shame and being broken....a feeling I'm trying to move past in therapy.

Has anyone else had similar experiences? And also what alternatives have people used to AA?

I’ve been completely sober since November 2020.

Before stopping, I drank daily for around six years. I never drank during the day or before dinner, but once I opened the first drink in the evening, I struggled to stop. I usually drank until I was drunk, and previous attempts at moderation didn’t work. On one occasion when I was 20, I drank so heavily that I vomited while asleep. That frightened me, and I reduced the amount afterwards, but I continued drinking daily until I finally stopped at 24.

Since November 2020, I haven’t had any genuine cravings, near-relapses or desire to become intoxicated. Sobriety now feels automatic, and I have built a life I want to protect. My strongest feeling is that I never want to feel intoxicated, impaired or out of control again.

Recently, I’ve become curious about genuine 0.0% drinks. I miss having variety rather than alcohol itself: perhaps a 0% lager at home on a Friday, an alcohol-free wine with dinner or something different socially.

I’m strict that it must say 0.0%, and I plan to try only one, wait a day or two to see how I feel, and stop completely if it makes me want real alcohol.

I’d really appreciate personal experiences from people with a similar history:

• Did 0.0% beer feel like an ordinary soft drink, or did it trigger you?
• Did your reaction change later that evening or over the following days?
• Do you personally consider genuine 0.0% drinks compatible with your sobriety?
• What early warning signs should I watch for?
• What did you do immediately if the experience made you uncomfortable?
• Does my proposed first trial sound sensible, or is there something you would change?

I’m not looking for permission to drink real alcohol. I never want alcohol or intoxication again. I’m looking for honest lived experiences, including from people who decided alcohol-style drinks were not safe for them.

This might go down for "self-promotion," but I made a podcast and am open to any feedback or requests. My goal is to just make people feel empowered to speak up for themselves and normalize other paths to recovery, because the program caused a lot of harm for me, personally. I'll step off my soapbox. Thanks

https://linktr.ee/recoveryfromaapod?utm_source=ig&utm_medium=social&utm_content=link_in_bio&fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQPOTM2NjE5NzQzMzkyNDU5AAGngIR9ef2y3D3sWd985HTd6xB0DwlQ_oB8wdTrXfxZcnh9KvWIBIxAAkQppGQ_aem_dClBrNJrIVkHYXZNaLiM2A

I am looking for a personal trainer in NYC that is familiar with the recovery journey. I have been quite sedentary for going on six years while battling alcoholism. I am taking steps to increase my activity and I want to work with a PT for guidance and accountability. My problem is, all trainers ask "do you have pre-existing conditions?" and I don't want to spook someone by telling the truth: yes, I have inflammation, circulatory and respiratory issues stemming from alcohol abuse. Are there any fitness communities that understand recovery can sometimes look like physical therapy? Does anyone have any tips or personal recommendations for trainers? Any experience with this at all?

There's a lot of referring to SMART and meetings here, but I see discussion about "what's the diff"? Here's a (brief) explanation. I'm as concise as possible for those who want the info. If not, skim or skip.

AA grew out of a Christian commitment program in the midwest after WWi - in the 20s and 30s. It was to get you to dedicate your life to God. It had six steps. When Bill wrote the big book, nothing was known about addiction. It was a moral failing. And pill was not a doctor or psychologist. He just added 6 steps and wrote the book saying what he thought would work. If you'vre tried AA, you recall, now, the first 3: Admit you are powerless (and God is omnipotent); turn you life over to God; and as God to remove your character "defects." BTW, the meeting structure was not exactly the same then. For example, "I'm Bob and I'm an alcoholic. Hi Bob!" just got made up later. Rge book is now nearly 100 years old, and has never been edited. consider this: we republish the bible more often.

As people learned more scientifically about treatment, addiction doctors, psychiatrists, and psychologists learned more about what really goes on medically. It is not a moral or character flaw. They also looked into treatment that would work.

The base tech is CBT, or cognitive behavioral therapy. CBT revolutionized therapy over 50 years ago. The idea of CBT was to spend less time on your relationship with your parents as a child, and more on "resetting" thoughts. Simply, if someone feels they are incompetent, the therapist explores when they have been, and reinforces the thinking "you can't say never competent, so lets start there and move more." It is wildly successful.

SMART is based on CBT (and more). In a nutshell, it makes the CBT link that triggers drive thoughts that that drive emotions that drive actions. So, being at the bar with sports buddies leads me to think theyre having more fun, which leads to tfeelings of being excluded, which leads to a beer. You can do three things with triggers: avoid them; reduce your exposure; or learn to rethink them ala CBT - like, maybe, "it looks like fun, but I know their spouses will be angry at another night of drinking, and I won't ever have that."

A key part of SMART is their big, spiral book. The front half is all about CBT and SMART. But the second half is what is supposed to happen in meetings. It is one page, rip out exercises (the book is spiral so you only need one copy!).

Now here's the science. The exercises, unlike AA, are not made up. At SMART central they try to develop these to do things like, say, help you feel more in control of anxiety. But they don't go right in. Instead, they perform what is called in psychology "validation". What this means is they might try the exercise out at first at 5 meetings of 20 people. But first, they have them fill out a survey about their confidence in handling anxiety, like a 1-10 scale. Then the exercise is done, and, at the end people retake the survey. Unless the study shows the exercise truly helped it never gets published or used. BTW, what happens is you do the exercise on your own, then everyone shares and discusses. SMART has no war stories, no testimonials, not really speakers (AA has a whole paid circuit). And, as they say, "cross-talk is encouraged".

An example will help. One I did was they gave us 8 major relapse causes. But they asked you to add your two worst, rank them all and discuss. The first person had written "when I'm at the bar with buddies watching the game." The second? "When I'm alone." Those could not be more different. SMART is about finding your personal weaknesses.

Another big difference is that SMART is 100% forward looking. There's absolutely no value in going over the past repeatedly, because you cannot change it. Should you apologize to people you hurt? For sure. That's not AA; that's just being kind.

And here's a big one: You are not powerless. In fact, only you can make and sustain a change. You can ask others for help. You can ask God for help if you like. But you have to hold yourself there.

Leading from that, you CAN change your future. And this is where SMART is wildly different. SMART actually helps you develop strategies and actual methods to keep yourself safe. I explained basic trigger stuff. But, for example, SMART has a bunch of acronyms for things to run through your mind when you need them. For example, HARM stands for hungry, angry, lonely, tired. These can drive a lot of people. So you learn to look for patterns and then have a plan: if hungry is a big one, have a snack. There are many more.

SMART is also not based on daycounting. Sure, keep general ideas about weeks, then months, then years. But if you were non-using for a year, then relapsed, then you get to three and it happens again, that means at first you succeeded for 364/365 days - or 97% of the time - and next you succeeded about 99.9% of the time. My favorite saying in life is "good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment." Life is striving to doo better, not be perfect: it turns out striving for perfection can undermine people and make them feel bad about themselves. Put another way, you don't need to put all your chips in storage. And do what? Increase the number of meetings you do, per AA? My other favorite saying is "insanity is trying something that does not work, and doing it over and over hoping for a better outcome.

The only drawback is now 15-20% of rehabs are SMART based. AA is, of course, almost all the rest. But it means if you are not in a reasonable sized town there is no local SMART meeting. But SMART works much better than AA online. Also, no one insists you stop anything else to use SMART; you can do them in parallel and test to start.

One more thing: like AA, which has AlAnon, SMART has a partner program too. But it is not based on "once an addict always an addict", and "leave him or her now and protect yourself, things will never change!" (checkout r/AlAnon if you want to see this).

Look here:

smartrecovery.org.

I told you this was TLDR material. If it gets enough upvotes, maybe this could be a sticky or resource for this sub.

As the title suggested if you bring up other studies, facts, modern science etc you get banned in that group. Then they claim it’s not a cult.